We need to stop taking the word "concept" at face value (Satoru Gojo CM removal)

[Omazio2019]

I suppose that paragraph corresponds to this in Japanese


〝無下限呪術〟
ミゲルは事前に、夏油から説明されていた。それは文字通り、無限という概念を現実にする術。五条悟を最強たらしめる相伝の術式である。
規格外の破壊力を持つからこそ、そのコントロールには原子レベルに干渉する、綿密な呪力操作が必要となる。 時空間を支配するほどの演算、まともに扱えば脳が焼き切れる負荷は免れない。

I have no problem with the Viet novel version scan, though I think it better to translate directly from the original language raw instead of re-translate it from another language.

 

[Vietthai96]

I suppose that paragraph corresponds to this in Japanese


〝無下限呪術〟
ミゲルは事前に、夏油から説明されていた。それは文字通り、無限という概念を現実にする術。五条悟を最強たらしめる相伝の術式である。
規格外の破壊力を持つからこそ、そのコントロールには原子レベルに干渉する、綿密な呪力操作が必要となる。 時空間を支配するほどの演算、まともに扱えば脳が焼き切れる負荷は免れない。

I have no problem with the Viet novel version scan, though I think it better to translate directly from the original language raw instead of re-translate it from another language.

Do a rough translation, anyway it is exactly the same as Vietnamese version. It stated that the Cursed Technique is literally a technique that manifest the concept of infinity into reality (or make it real). They using the Kanji 概念, which the Romaji is Gainen, literally translated into English mean Concept, 概念 (Gainen) is a Kanji that most of the time refering to fundamental abstract concept, someone with good japanese knowledge can check this out

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Gainen also means mental idea it doesn’t primarily mean metaphysical concept and making it real or reality still implies it’s manifested into physicality such as his divisions of space.

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

 

[Arkenis]

Arguing with novel scans now too? So much debate and most of the material being used is not from the source material. This can not be the standard when determining how we classify what a character’s abilities are.

Not once does this manga imply Gojo is manipulating the metaphysical concept of infinity, only that he is taking the infinity all around them and then applying it to his local area.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Tbh I'm not a fan of how people abuse "concept of" scans immediately thinking it must refer to governing concepts when it could very well just be referring to the idea or notion of something. I've seen it in many verses where in reality it just refers to the notion.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Arguing with novel scans now too? So much debate and most of the material being used is not from the source material. This can not be the standard when determining how we classify what a character’s abilities are.

Novel scans are still tertiary canon with direct oversite. This statement is also blatantly false, a lionshare of the scans I provided to Ultima were directly from the manga and they correlate directly to what is being discussed in the supplement. You guys will have to actually argue why the scans from the mang don't directly correlate to the supplement.

Not once does this manga imply Gojo is manipulating the metaphysical concept of infinity, only that he is taking the infinity all around them and then applying it to his local area.

Except they blatantly do and this is confirmed in the novel and Jump supplement. You guys need to prove how Infinity is not metaphysical, instead of just claiming it, given the preponderance of evidence for it being blatantly abstract and holding sway over reality, which would qualify by our own standards for not being nominal concepts, which was OP's original argument.

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't think it's really fair to BestMGQ to delay this thread in perpetuity on the off-chance that the discussion with Ultima results in a massive overturning of the current 7-0 consensus to remove CM from Gojo's profile, especially considering that it was added based on a thread without sufficient votes.

I am fine with this thread remaining open and for the discussion to continue, so that Dr._whiteee and Ultima have a venue to continue their discussion (which may take quite a long time) but this can be applied now, it's well past the grace period and has a large unanimous vote in favor of it's application. If Dr._whiteee successfully persuades a quorum of staff after-the-fact we can simply reverse it.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't think it's really fair to BestMGQ to delay this thread in perpetuity on the off-chance that the discussion with Ultima results in a massive overturning of the current 7-0 consensus to remove CM from Gojo's profile, especially considering that it was added based on a thread without sufficient votes.

I am fine with this thread remaining open and for the discussion to continue, so that Dr._whiteee and Ultima have a venue to continue their discussion (which may take quite a long time) but this can be applied now, it's well past the grace period and has a large unanimous vote in favor of it's application. If Dr._whiteee successfully persuades a quorum of staff after-the-fact we can simply reverse it.

Pretty sure there is a rule that gives two weeks for discussion to open. I'm not sure why you keep trying to rush things when new evidence comes up and given we've already agreed to keep it open given that Ultima + two other mods are waiting for information before making their thoughts known and I am still waiting for a reply from an additional beuracrat. Two admin votes and two additional mod votes is quite enough, especially since a lionshare of the mods who voted agree dropped one liners agreeing with OP and aren't privy to recent evidence.

 

[Deagonx]

Pretty sure there is a rule that gives two weeks for discussion to open

You're mistaken, its two days, not two weeks.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to rush things when new evidence comes up and given we've already agreed to keep it open given that Ultima + two other mods are waiting for information before making their thoughts known and I am still waiting for a reply from an additional beuracrat. Two admin votes and two additional mod votes is quite enough, especially since a lionshare of the mods who voted agree dropped one liners agreeing with OP and aren't privy to recent evidence.

If you succeed in convincing them, we can undo it, but this has met all the requirements to pass. The thread that added this in the first place didn't.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You're mistaken, its two days, not two weeks.

Are you sure? I've been told by other staff that the period is two weeks and Dread (who I understand isn't staff but is privy to rule standards) also stated this earlier. It's part of the reason the Megami Tensei standard change is still open despite no pushback for over 2 weeks.

If you succeed in convincing them, we can undo it, but this has met all the requirements to pass. The thread that added this in the first place didn't.

Except time and the fact that several staff still haven't clarified their thoughts.

It was. Ant gave me express permission to do so and he was aware of the situation. Stop pushing this false narrative.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you sure?

Yes.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

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For all content revision suggestions, a grace period of 48 hours should be allowed for the reviewing staff members to evaluate and approve them. This grace period applies to both minor and self-evident revisions, as well as larger revisions that may require more input from other staff members. Until this grace period has elapsed since the time of the thread's creation, the revision should not be applied to the profiles.

Except time and the fact that several staff still haven't clarified their thoughts.

This is not required for a thread to pass.

It was. Ant gave me express permission to do so and he was aware of the situation. Stop pushing this false narrative.

Ant should not have done so if the vote was 1-1.

 

[Vietthai96]

Gainen also means mental idea it doesn’t primarily mean metaphysical concept and making it real or reality still implies it’s manifested into physicality such as his divisions of space.

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

You just completely ignore that the entire statement stated he manifest concept of infinity into reality and just argue it is just......mental ideas so it not qualify???

Yes.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

While the rule is 48 hours, i don't see any harm to refrain from applying the thread sightly longer, the discussion still ongoing back and forth, and Ultima and Whiteee still discussing, if Ultima still not come for like 1 to 2 days then fine we can apply the revision due to overwhelming agreement, You said it not fair for BestMGQ, but is it also fair to Whiteee??, let him have some chance to defend his verse

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Yes.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• For verse-specific threads, if the only opposing party does not reply for over 2 weeks without any notice or known/suspected extenuating circumstances, then the moderators should try to get the thread to completion without them, assuming that they'd probably not reply. However, their points should not be discarded, and this should not be treated as that user conceding. Their arguments and votes should be kept in mind while the thread goes on and anybody else is free to argue in their stead.

This is not required for a thread to pass.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Admin votes count the most toward thread conclusions and I am awaiting two of them to respond, so I'd say that should reasonably impact this passing short of a week being open.

Ant should not have done so if the vote was 1-1.

I'm going to take his word over yours.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Chill everyone chill.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I don't think it's really fair to BestMGQ to delay this thread in perpetuity on the off-chance that the discussion with Ultima results in a massive overturning of the current 7-0 consensus to remove CM from Gojo's profile, especially considering that it was added based on a thread without sufficient votes.

I am fine with this thread remaining open and for the discussion to continue, so that Dr._whiteee and Ultima have a venue to continue their discussion (which may take quite a long time) but this can be applied now, it's well past the grace period and has a large unanimous vote in favor of it's application. If Dr._whiteee successfully persuades a quorum of staff after-the-fact we can simply reverse it.

Well I think this is a good compromise. I'll replace it with mathematics manipulation since 3 staff were fine with that. Although might need a good justification to replace it so I was thinking this not completely disregarding the scan concept was used in. Can't use negative apples bit as that's for Blue not infinity but current things in profile for infinity should suffice as supporting evidence for math manip

Gojo can create an infinite space in which he controls things such as "weak phase" and "strong phase" to manipulate the distance between him and his opponent as well as affecting their energy, abilities, perception of "near" and "far" etc., to become incapable of making contact with Gojo due to said entities being unable to converge in the proper space.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

What does mathematics manipulation entail exactly?

 

[Deagonx]

While the rule is 48 hours, i don't see any harm to refrain from applying the thread sightly longer, the discussion still ongoing back and forth, and Ultima and Whiteee still discussing, if Ultima still not come for like 1 to 2 days then fine we can apply the revision due to overwhelming agreement

I don't see any harm in applying it now. It can always just be changed later. It's not like applying it now prevents the discussion from overturning the consensus.

You said it not fair for BestMGQ, but is it also fair to Whiteee??, let him have some chance to defend his verse

He did have a chance. Every single one of the staff agrees occurred after he had made multiple replies to the OP. Several staff have replied to his arguments.
This isn't a crisis, none of the changes we make on the wiki are permanent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Admin votes count the most toward thread conclusions and I am awaiting two of them to respond, so I'd say that should reasonably impact this passing short of a week being open.

You are wrong. We had a staff discussion on this exact issue and decided that admin votes and thread mod votes were of equal value, the only distinction being that at least one admin vote is required for Tier 2 or above.

I'm going to take his word over yours.

You're free to do so. I am not giving you my word, I am referencing the established site rules. Three staff votes are required to pass a thread involving Concept Manipulation, not one. Even if Ant read the thread and agreed with you, and thus made it 2-1 (Ant & Duedate - Confluctor) it still wouldn't have been appropriate to apply yet.

 

[Deagonx]

Well I think this is a good compromise. I'll replace it with mathematics manipulation since 3 staff were fine with that. Although might need a good justification to replace it so I was thinking this not completely disregarding the scan concept was used in. Can't use negative apples bit as that's for Blue not infinity but current things in profile

Yes, that seems appropriate here, and your justification looks fine. You are free to apply it now, but it may get changed later depending on the outcome of White's discussion with Ultima. I don't foresee that changing things much but there's no harm in leaving the thread open for the possibility.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

What does mathematics manipulation entail exactly?

• Applied manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate real phenomenons by changing the mathematical rules through which they are described.

Gojo falls under this.

 

[PainKiller07]

Arguing with novel scans now too? So much debate and most of the material being used is not from the source material. This can not be the standard when determining how we classify what a character’s abilities are.

Not once does this manga imply Gojo is manipulating the metaphysical concept of infinity, only that he is taking the infinity all around them and then applying it to his local area.

How do you define ''source material'' I'm curious. Is the novel not canon?

 

[ImmortalDread]

But what exactly is here, mathematical manipulation? May anyone explain where is the basis coming from?

 

[Deagonx]

But what exactly is here, mathematical manipulation? May anyone explain where is the basis coming from?

This is what Ultima said on it:

Gojo literally being able to make shit like "-1 apples" actually materialize is better evidence for Infinity being more abstract than milquetoast Spacehax, yeah. Although I'd classify that as Mathematics Manipulation, not Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[Arkenis]

How do you define ''source material'' I'm curious. Is the novel not canon?

Manga and sometimes fan-books can be fine since they specifically refer to the manga in most cases. Novel is a second telling of the story, adding in stuff the author had not planned or simply thought it would be cool to add for the story. In most cases it should not been granted clearance when assessing the characters abilities and stats especially when its a telling of the original story.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

But what exactly is here, mathematical manipulation? May anyone explain where is the basis coming from?

It comes from me and Ultima's back and forth in which Ultima stated

Gojo literally being able to make shit like "-1 apples" actually materialize is better evidence for Infinity being more abstract than milquetoast Spacehax, yeah. Although I'd classify that as Mathematics Manipulation, not Conceptual Manipulation.

Duedate and Lucky concurred with this and is part of the reason people are waiting to here Ultima's response after he asked for clarification of my evidence.

Concurrently, accepting this compromise would also inherently axe any support for OP's argument, given that OP stated Infinity is a nominal concept (thus not abstract or having an impact on reality), and the mathematics manip here would indeed be both abstract and governing reality.

 

[Deagonx]

Novel is a second telling of the story, adding in stuff the author had not planned or simply thought it would be cool to add for the story. In most cases it should not been granted clearance when assessing the characters abilities and stats especially when its a telling of the original story.

Notably, in this they had a different author. Ballad Kitaguni wrote the novels, not Gege. He only did the illustrations.

 

[Vietthai96]

But what exactly is here, mathematical manipulation? May anyone explain where is the basis coming from?

i also don't know, probably from Zeno's Paradoxes which similar to how real number work, also Cursed Technique Lapse: Blue can make shit like negative number manifest, like a -1 apple

Anyway, about canon, source material and shit, idk since i'm not the verse supporter, just argue based on what people shown me

 

[Deagonx]

Concurrently, accepting this compromise would also inherently axe any support for OP's argument, given that OP stated Infinity is a nominal concept (thus not abstract or having an impact on reality), and the mathematics manip here would indeed be both abstract and governing reality.

No, OP was referring to "Near" and "Far" with regard to nominalism, not infinity. His argument with regard to infinity was in line with considering it physics manip or math manip.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It comes from me and Ultima's back and forth in which Ultima stated

Duedate and Lucky concurred with this and is part of the reason people are waiting to here Ultima's response after he asked for clarification of my evidence.

Concurrently, accepting this compromise would also inherently axe any support for OP's argument, given that OP stated Infinity is a nominal concept (thus not abstract or having an impact on reality), and the mathematics manip here would indeed be both abstract and governing reality.

No it doesn't axe anything this isn't a gotcha moment bud. Mathematics manip is by no means close to conceptual manipulation too. I'm just going off what staff accepted/agreed upon.

No, OP was referring to "Near" and "Far" with regard to nominalism, not infinity. His argument with regard to infinity was in line with considering it physics manip or math manip.

Exactly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

May I see the scans (or the basis of the ability) because I remotely don't remember anywhere where Gojo manipulates rules of mathematics to manipulate real phenomenons, at least, not intentionally.

i also don't know, probably from Zeno's Paradoxes which similar to how real number work, also Cursed Technique Lapse: Blue can make shit like negative number manifest, like a -1 apple

I don't think he has ever done it. I am pretty sure it is only referenced to understand how negative numbers and negative distance works. The ability is like magnetic force. It forces a real space to compensate and fill in the area by drawing everything toward the impossible.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Anyways I hate it when multiple abilities overlap yet they also have to be separate making where exactly to apply things confusing.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't think he has ever done it. I am pretty sure it is only referenced to understand how negative numbers and negative distance works. The ability is like magnetic force. It forces a real space to compensate and fill in the area by drawing everything toward the impossible.

yeah, i also think it is just he used math as a metaphorical comparison to explain how his ability work, not like he literally manipulate those things

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Deagonx Are you at least aware on which basis is mathematical manipulation comes from? Because I do not believe this to be a good compromise. It is not effective to replace it with another ability that is not its place.

I seriously think the removal is absolutely fine on its own, unless the profile doesn't have gravity/spatial manipulation, then add them instead.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you at least aware on which basis is mathematical manipulation comes from? Because I do not believe this to be a good compromise. It is not effective to replace it with another ability that is not its place.

It comes from this scan which states that he can amplify limitless and negative numbers to create impossible situations like having -1 apples to create a magnetic effect.

 

[Vietthai96]

I seriously think the removal is absolutely fine on its own, unless the profile doesn't have gravity/spatial manipulation, then add them instead.

he has those things already

 

[Dr._whiteee]

May I see the scans (or the basis of the ability) because I remotely don't remember anywhere where Gojo manipulates rules of mathematics to manipulate real phenomenons, at least, not intentionally.

This is the full context of our argument, please read it in full as it list a majority of the verse evidence.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

No it doesn't axe anything this isn't a gotcha moment bud. Mathematics manip is by no means close to conceptual manipulation too. I'm just going off what staff accepted/agreed upon.

Yes it does. The whole argument in your OP is predicated on Infinity being a nominal concept and thus not abstract or holding sway over reality. The current compromise stems from Gojo's ability to use the negative numbers found in the concept of infinity and utilize that to manifest logically impossible manifestations into reality.

Ergo, Infinity cannot be a nominal concept.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I've been quietly following this thread but got a bit lost can someone redirect me or reply to the last good comments that summarize both sides.

 

[Deagonx]

The whole argument in your OP is predicated on Infinity being a nominal concept and thus not abstract or holding sway over reality

No, it isn't. Re-read the OP, it makes literally no mention of "Infinity" in the first place. It is solely addressing the "Near" and "Far" scan. The discussion about Infinity came up as a result of your rebuttal, but BestMGQ never responded to any of your arguments by asserting that Infinity was nominal. I checked.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ok I adjusted where math manip is better placed based on accepted scans in relation to it.

Satoru Gojo

Satoru Gojo (五ご条じょう悟さとる, Gojō Satoru?) is one of the main protagonists of the Jujutsu Kaisen series. He is a Special Grade Jujutsu Sorcerer who is widely recognized as the strongest of the Modern Era. Satoru is the pride of the Gojo Family, being the first person to inherit both Limitless and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Profile can be closed for now.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

No, it isn't. Re-read the OP, it makes literally no mention of "Infinity" in the first place. It is solely addressing the "Near" and "Far" scan. The discussion about Infinity came up as a result of your rebuttal, but BestMGQ never responded to any of your arguments by asserting that Infinity was nominal. I checked.

Deagon, the quote you are referring to is only relevant because it's the description given the power of infinity. Inifnity cannot be a nominal concept if its subset powers are able to manifest logical impossibilities into reality. The "near" and "far" cannot be nominal given the evidence provided how they work and where their power fundamentally stems from.

This was also blatantly outlined in the same exact scan where they discuss Gojo having control over "The scale of distance". This was tied back to OP's original argument of Infinity being perception manip which has been blatantly debunked and didn't make sense in the first place.