- 1,058
- 341
I know I said to just drop it earlier lol, but it only effects one character so we might as well just add it real quick
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Wandenreich lift.... Here we go again (Bleach)
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
- Start date
- 29,937
- 25,094
Ten seconds in total from the moment the rubble starts being lifted to the all of the rubble being in the Royal Palace still seems too quick to me for the sequence of events.
(This is one of those cases where the anime might have helped clarify things since like most of this feat is off-panel)
(This is one of those cases where the anime might have helped clarify things since like most of this feat is off-panel)
- 10,122
- 14,824
How high are the current High 6-As? Hundreds to Thousands of Pentatons or Exatons?
- 1,058
- 341
Yeah hopefully the anime will help clear this feat up lol. But that’s a good 1 or 2 or maybe even more years to clarify for sure. That’s why I’m saying we stick with your accepted 30s timeframe for now.
With the novels being delayed twice now there’s no telling what could happen with the anime you know?
- 1,058
- 341
I think the current ones are into the couple of dozens pentatons, but this feat would be a nice little upgrade to separate the god tiers from the top tiers since High 6A is such a vast tier.
- 29,937
- 25,094
There is another alternative where we use Potential Energy to calculate the feat, since that doesn't require us to assume an explicit timeframe at all and can be considered more trustworthy.
- 1,058
- 341
Uh correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t using potential energy vastly lower the feat?
I’ve seen it in other calcs including this one and the difference in lowering the feat is phenomenal lol
- 29,937
- 25,094
It would be Continent level instead of Multi-Continent level.
- 1,058
- 341
So I’m right that it would be at a least a thousand times lower than the currently accepted 30s calc? Then sure, if you feel it’s better to use that method then **** it, RG soul king/god tier level Renji, and Byakuya, here we come lol
- 1,058
- 341
@Damage, like seriously, do you see what you’re trying to suggest here with the potential energy method? Even getting rid of any multipliers that bring bring high tiers to continent level tier, you’re basically saying that a normal peak shinigami like Yamamoto can deal with the absolute god tiers of the verse that for one of the reasons is them being a hybrid of multiple species and far beyond what a normal shinigami could be? I mean sure, try and go the potential energy route, but at that point, eos Ichigo and soul king absorbed Yhwach are equal to regular shinigami so that means, Renji is strong enough to be soul king. Do you agree with that?
- 1,058
- 341
@Damage, I know I’m responding fast and a little heated that you’d even suggest that method, but until you give me a reason on why we’d lower Yhwach’s feat by thousands of times I wanna see what accurate explanation you have to downgrade the god tiers to eventually 6B ulquiorra tier
- 1,127
- 369
Stronger characters can have worse calcs/feats, it's pretty common. That's why AP is a thing.
- 1,058
- 341
But that’s why I’m worried he’d suggest using those worse calcs as an accurate basis for their tiers. He’s all about accuracy which I have no hate about, but using what he suggest puts people that are clearly above those accurate feats in the same tier as people who are clearly far weaker than them doesn’t make any sense what so ever unless it’s in his mind. But at this point, yeah **** it prime soul king is RG Renji/ Yamamoto tier since it's accurate
- 29,937
- 25,094
Potential energy would be more reliable than kinetic energy, that's all I'm saying.
And at the moment Soul King Yhwach is Tier 6 anyway right now, so it's not like a drastic change. It wouldn't even affect his current rating.
Have you considered that characters like Renji may be overrated?
- 5,220
- 3,346
How so? As I said, it's literally less than 10 pages, starting the feat from rubble moving at the SK palace is wrong since the rubble moving from Seiretei clearly doesn't happen simultaneously, otherwise we would already see it in the air, which we don't in this top panel, so the feat should start from here.
Even if you consider 10 seconds too short (ridiculous given that the 10 second end was accepted by several staff members for the former calc and nothing has changed in this regard), 30 seconds is too long.
As for PE, no way, you're lowering the result by thousands of times for basically zero reason, a timeframe being gathered from number of pages is fine and has been used before.
- 1,342
- 675
I agree with 15 seconds, I think this is the most reasonable
- 29,937
- 25,094
The number of pages aren't an exact timeframe since the majority of the feat occurs off-screen and there is clearly a jump between this page and this page. Also trying to say that panels/pages are indicative of a low timeframe in general makes zero sense. It's not like counting frames per second on a video.
Thirty seconds isn't too long. Look at how much is being spoken just over these three pages. Just doing a rough estimate on calculating words per minute spoken gives me 28 seconds as being the necessary amount of time for all these speech bubbles to occur over the course of the feat. And this isn't even the full feat.
In certain situations using the amount of words spoken to find a timeframe isn't valid because Talking is a Free Action during high-speed combat, but that isn't a valid excuse for this feat.
And there is no "no reason" to change it to PE. PE is just more accurate than KE since less additional assumptions have to be made.
Thirty seconds isn't too long. Look at how much is being spoken just over these three pages. Just doing a rough estimate on calculating words per minute spoken gives me 28 seconds as being the necessary amount of time for all these speech bubbles to occur over the course of the feat. And this isn't even the full feat.
In certain situations using the amount of words spoken to find a timeframe isn't valid because Talking is a Free Action during high-speed combat, but that isn't a valid excuse for this feat.
And there is no "no reason" to change it to PE. PE is just more accurate than KE since less additional assumptions have to be made.
- 5,220
- 3,346
Exact timeframe? Of course not, but a timeframe can be reasoned from it.
I'm not seeing how you think there was a time jump there, nothing from those two pages you linked indicates that to me.
Not sure how you consider 30 seconds a "low timeframe", it literally says on the calculations page that feats that happen in a short time should be assumed to be one second and while this isn't quite that fast, neither is it far slower, yet you're saying we should either use 30 seconds or just scrap a timeframe entirely.
Talking is a free action in all scenarios, you can't just make an exception here because you want to.
It isn't more accurate though, the calc itself is already being quite heavily lowballed but that isn't enough for you, it has to fit your weird scaling which is evident from you bringing up Renji earlier. Timeframes are allowed to be assumed when no timeframe is given, this is explicitly stated on the calculations page.
- 29,937
- 25,094
Absolutely not true. That is only when we have reason to believe it is the case.
When DIO goes on a massive speech even though he is limited to five seconds, we can handwave his unusually long amount of dialogue as talking is a free action.
We do this when we know that things are happening faster than what is being shown on-screen with dialogue. In a live-action film like Captain America for example, we don't see Steve and Tony having a conversation on-screen and then say "Actually, they were talking at hypersonic speed because I think their conversation should only have listed 0.5 seconds in real time." You need a basis in order to claim "Talking is a free action".
In this case, if we had a statement of "Yhwach lifted the whole thing up in one second" then we excuse their conversations as "Talking is a free action". We don't use it as an excuse just because we think a timeframe is low. We have to know it is low in the first place.
That is obviously case by case. Something like swinging a sword in one panel for example. Not a feat of lifting up buildings spread out over an entire chapter.
We cut from one scene to another. There is no telling how much time passed between that cut.
The calc is being lowballed because it is an extremely nebulous calc. The mass is being assumed, the distance is being assumed, the timeframe is being assumed. One way it can be made more accurate is by cutting out one of those assumptions.
Also I'm not the one who brought Renji earlier. Somebody else did that.
- 1,342
- 675
Well, damage makes sense to me, sorry
- 1,058
- 341
I will confirm I was the one who brought up Renji. Which make me worry about Damage saying he’s overrated. But either way, Damage obviously isn’t gonna budge on the 30 sec so let’s just add a little sentence to Yhwach’s profile or just throw away this calc entirely.
@Damage, The distance between the seireitei and the soul king palace is already massively lowballed so I don’t see why you’d want to further lower the results by thousands of times other than what you see as “accurate”. Let’s just stick with the 30 sec and call it a day yeah?
@Damage, The distance between the seireitei and the soul king palace is already massively lowballed so I don’t see why you’d want to further lower the results by thousands of times other than what you see as “accurate”. Let’s just stick with the 30 sec and call it a day yeah?
- 1,058
- 341
Also like seriously.. I feel if Damage had gotten his way on another certain thread he wouldn’t be arguing about the timeframe so much..
the rating are probably gonna change in a couple weeks but honestly, who the **** knows at this point
the rating are probably gonna change in a couple weeks but honestly, who the **** knows at this point
- 5,220
- 3,346
Whatever, there's no arguing with Damage especially in regards to Bleach, it's his way or the highway so to speak.
I mean we literally have Shinji visibly shocked about how fast the feat happens and he can't believe it, but nah, let's just remove a timeframe entirely so the calc can be lowballed as much as possible, that's basically how Bleach powerscaling has been here for half a year now, the lowest possible result or nothing.
Unforunately the ship has sailed for 30 seconds, nothing is stopping him with just going with PE now, this calc has no purpose other than for Damage to argue for downgrading other stuff.
I mean we literally have Shinji visibly shocked about how fast the feat happens and he can't believe it, but nah, let's just remove a timeframe entirely so the calc can be lowballed as much as possible, that's basically how Bleach powerscaling has been here for half a year now, the lowest possible result or nothing.
Because he can, it's just that simple.
Unforunately the ship has sailed for 30 seconds, nothing is stopping him with just going with PE now, this calc has no purpose other than for Damage to argue for downgrading other stuff.
- 29,937
- 25,094
Clearly you missed the Seireitei thread, where we are still currently using the ridiculously inflated size for the Seireitei & Wandenreich.
- 5,220
- 3,346
That only failed because you regurgitated the same argument used half a dozen other times to downgrade Seiretei size, if you had used something new, I have no doubt we'd have a mountain sized Seiretei right now.
- 1,058
- 341
In regards to the timeframe, I kinda wonder why Damage never brought up his concerns for when it was previously done and is only bringing them up now lol. If he did bring them up before I apoligize but I’ve never seen someone so against it lmao. And judging by his most recent comment, he’s salty as **** about his seireitei thread but now he kinda knows how the rest of the bleach fandom feels when he downgrades everything about Bleach
- 29,937
- 25,094
Just because people disagreed with it in the past doesn't make the rejections more valid as a reason to reject it again. I believe that the current evidence we have is pretty good for the consistent size of the Wandenreich in the final arc. I also believe that people are hypocritical in criticizing the use of visuals for certain feats but being fully on board with using the visuals in other feats.
- 29,937
- 25,094
Do you want me to just hop in my time machine and go back in time to raise my objections? What the hell?
You know I can't be on every thread, or have the energy to fight every argument, all the time, right?
What the hell do you want from me?
- 1,058
- 341
Just curious man, can you calc the sizes of your “accurate” visuals and post them real quick? If the seireitei comes out as smaller than Karakura town than I’ll know you’re kinda losing your mind
- 5,220
- 3,346
So basically you're admitting that you just repeat the same threads and arguments in hope that the people who disagreed with it before aren't around or care to disagree with it again?
Because that's literally what's happening here, the 10 second timeframe was fine before, but it just so happens that the staff members who agreed with that 10 second version are either retired or inactive.
- 1,058
- 341
No offense, but you’ve fought VERY hard to get rid of or downgrade every calc in bleach so far. So I have reason to believe since there’s not a lot of staff members that wanna get involved in Bleach you think you have free reign and control over the verse as if you’ve wrote it
And since the first thread you posted for it hasn’t gone your way I can see you’re starting to lose it
- 29,937
- 25,094
Why do I care if some staff members from years ago settled on a specific timeframe? Are all staff members supposed to share the same opinions now?
I fight very hard to remove bad calcs and bad scaling, and there's still a lot of work left to be done.
As for why certain objections weren't raised months ago, maybe I missed it, or maybe I didn't want to deal with hordes of entitled Bleach supporters at the time. Do you think it is a coincidence that loads of staff members are put off from the toxic Bleach CRTs and the toxic Bleach fandom? Why do you think it is mostly just me making these threads and revisions? It sure isn't just a coincidence.
- 5,220
- 3,346
No, staff members are allowed to and should have differing opinions, but the fact remains that several staff members were fine with the 10 second end way back when and nothing regarding the feat in that respect has changed.
I just fine it weird that there's suddenly such a big issue with the timeframe when again, nothing has changed from when it was accepted before.
- 1,058
- 341
Bad calcs? are you ******* kidding me? I’m pretty sure for the distance between the seireitei and soul society we were using the fastest free fall speed until you came and said “let’s use regular free fall speed” and judging by how apparently the Almighty alone is required to be soul king when that’s not the case at all and people like Ichigo don’t have it, then yeah you can understand why knowledgeable members of Bleach who aren’t staff get salty as **** when another staff member says things and other staff agree without even thinking. Tbh you’re one of the more level headed when it comes to Bleach at least
- 1,058
- 341
Either way, it’s starting to get hostile so can we just add a single sentence to Yhwach’s page with this calc linked and please just close this? This is such a pointless upgrade lmao
@Damage, is that cool with you man? I feel like shit sometimes when I know I’m kinda being an asshole to you when you don’t deserve it so can’t we just wrap up this thread and go with the 30 sec timeframe?
@Damage, is that cool with you man? I feel like shit sometimes when I know I’m kinda being an asshole to you when you don’t deserve it so can’t we just wrap up this thread and go with the 30 sec timeframe?
Last edited:
- 1,342
- 675
What about 25 seconds?
- 1,058
- 341
Uhh maybe? There’s still other crts to think about and I just want this one too end lol. I’d appreciate if Damage or somebody could start commenting on the lifting strength crt because I feel that’s a little more important than this thread
- 1,198
- 1,030
Potential energy is a no no, that's just absurd.
- 21,157
- 30,144
Number 1
This Content Revision Thread is not made to argue about a compromise for a timeframe.If you have a problem with the timeframe, comment under the blog post or make a Calc Group Thread.
Content Revision Threads are not meant to argue over which mathematical value for time seems better, that's what Calc Group Threads are for.
Number 2
This will be the end of the bickering to and from other members in this thread.If you have an issue with someone's views on scaling or someone's methods on scaling, we have Message Walls and Conversations on this external forum for a reason.
Number 3
Is this thread for the implementation of the calculation into the scaling, or is there another reason for this thread?
- 5,633
- 4,856
- Thread starter
- #80
using the accepted ke end from damage for yhwach's page, second to last key
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
