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idfk we don't give to monsters a limited to their extrasensory perception only for being able to perceive the emotions of the SOULs within them either.
The cosmology blog does not really tackle Photoshop Flowey stuff (I'll wait @Roachman40 for it due to him having made it after all, I know it'll also have to be updated after this CRT methinks).
1 i agree, but Frisk would gain the abilities like Fear Manip that is currently on Chara's profile as you are arguing they aren't in control all the time, so we would need to see which ones Frisk would gain
Tbh that profile is already pretty wordy, I don't want to put stuff that'd make it even longer.
We don't even see someone with actually 7 SOULs, the most definite solution is Asriel simply using all the monsters SOULs as a replacement for the lacking 7th.
huh, there is one intelligence upgrade i wanted to do for him, would it be ok if i talk about it now or do you think the thread has too much already as is? it is admittedly a simple argument
Yeah... Some people who went to know me kinda are aware of how vocal I was for Frisk's AP not being equal to their Durability. Today I wanted to talk about it, because it's a pretty important discussion regarding also the lore interpretation of the verse, given that some new discoveries and thoughts I had made me take a 180° change on it.
For years a harsh debate in the Undertale fandom emerged ever since the release of the game, that being "Who is Chara talking to at the end of the Genocide Route: Frisk or the Player?".
This question has been a mostly unsolved one in the fandom, both in and outside powerscaling places. The reason is because of the scene being able to be interpreted as Chara talking to either of them, with basically nothing changing in the story.
My idea is that both are involved in Chara's conversation. Why?
While Kris' relationship with the Player is clearer than Frisk's, the latter is clearly influenced by the Player and does not really oppose us as much as Kris does, even if though sometimes they do things on their own like attempting to SAVE against Asriel without our input.
Now that my point is taken, this is relevant in understanding why Chara was talking with both of Frisk and us.
As @TheOrangeGuy09 pointed here, Chara does not take control over Frisk for the whole Genocide route, but only in few parts, those being Sans' and Asgore's respective fights, where Chara takes over the FIGHT Button on their own without us doing anything, with the main difference being the damage dealg being made of just "9" digits instead of regular amounts of damage which instead are made of various numbers.
Chara currently is accepted to possess Frisk for the entire Genocide Route. However, this is actually not the case, and they only gain full control after Sans dodges this attack. The reasoning:
It makes no sense for Chara to possess Frisk in battles before the last hit on Sans. The reasoning is that Sans has Instinctive Action as said on his profile, so Chara, if we assume them fighting during the entire battle, being unable to land a hit on Sans but somehow being able to do so later does not make any sense, as Instinctive Action would make Sans dodge again, even if Chara “broke the rules”. Heck, even going to the FIGHT button like this by itself is breaking the rules of the game, but Sans still manages to dodge that WHILE BEING ASLEEP, while he is awake during the second hit. It would make far more sense if Frisk was fighting the entire battle with Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.
Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.
(Note: Chara does indeed take some control over Frisk before that, but on a weaker level and not in battles)
So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key (as they do still control their body at times before the Sans battle, as said in their justification for possession), but the reasoning for stats should be the following:
Attack Potency: At least City Block level, likely far higher (Took over the body of a LV 19 Frisk, who defeated Undyne the Undying at a lower LV)
Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to killSans without giving him a chance to react)
Yeah I changed 'em a bit because the Asgore/Flowey bit are instantly before the 2-B nuke, so I assume Chara was just 2-B at that point.
This would technically change Frisk's AP justification with Great DT with them taking on Undyne the Undying and being able to defeat both her and Sans in their intelligence (though Chara should still have that in their intelligence as they did watch the whole thing after all), and changes Undyne the Undying and Sans' hyperlinks from "Chara" to "Frisk" as well in various pages, but that's a minor thing.
The main thing is that Chara must have talked with also Frisk, due to them being still our vessel, and Chara still taking over them both in Genocide and at the end of Soulless Pacifist routes. It makes literally 0 sense for Chara to just pretend that Frisk does not exist in this whole thing, as they were literally part of it, just like we were.
This very interesting page of the demo manual makes a difference between Frisk and the Player, directly calling the SAVE Point as a manifestation of YOUR Determination.
I do think it's clear af that Frisk also shares the Player's DT so they should be 2-B at their peak DT for pretty obvious reason, due to Chara using their DT in order to perform their feat of destroying the game world as said in the Player's page.
However there are some concerns that are worth addressing:
"But Frisk still has their SOUL after soulless routes, meaning that Chara took instead the Player's."
"Frisk literally died from the game's destruction, you can't say that Chara was talking to them."
There's literally no concrete evidence for Frisk dying from Chara's slash. You can equally argue that Frisk survived the destruction of the game too, and still being unable to do anything because of them being literally in a void now.
"Frisk couldn't harm Asriel, this is evidence of their DT not amping their AP anyway."
You see, DT matters in increasing stats, but does not tell much about comparing power between DT users on its own. Frisk had obviously more DT than Undyne the Undying, but they were still physically comparable, or Flowey managed to almost one shot Frisk despite having lower DT too.
"Frisk forgets stuff after a TRUE RESET, meaning that they don't share the same DT as the Player."
Frisk is the one using the Player's DT. I can argue that the Player is able to RESET Frisk back to their original state, as at that point they were completely disconnected from us, and there's no evidence for them still using our DT at this point, given the game was already over.
This would also completely remove the Note 2 from the Player's page, as it'd be completely outdated at this point.
BTW, this is also a nice scan to Frisk's Social Influencing.
For years Photoshop Flowey has been in the mud, forced to be in Tier 7 hell (familiar, isn't it?), with an "Unknown" being used to cope about him being that low. Well, those days are finally over, and he'll be back in being the powerful being he truly is.
I plan to make him Low 2-C. But why. The reason is off him having complete control over the timeline and being capable of overwriting it to his likes. Why is that?
Small gripe with this is that I disagree with SAVE Files representing the timeline the user has control over, I see it moreso representing a checkpoint in the timeline, even then it does show how much control Flowey has over the timeline eitherway so cool.
The "My World" thing could be interpreted in a couple ways, being a controller of the SAVE System would make the world your 'plaything' without you being low 2-C exactly, so to speak. Crashing the game and renaming the game Floweytale is interesting however.
It has very little differences compared to the current ones, except:
The 5 keys are now divided in tabbers including all the main statistics, as the keys aren't merely just power up version of the character, but very different forms each with lenghty explanations. Did something like Denji's profile to make it more readable.
Better organized the God of Hyperdeath tabber in P&A.
8-B normal monsters/pre-death asriel is evil slop wank btw BUT I DIGRESS!!
Existence Erasure is really my only gripe with this, I disagree with erasing Frisk's SAVE file warranting that due to it moreso being just time manipulation, he is using his power of the save system to override and destroy the previous users checkpoint in time. I've mentioned this before but flowey saying he will show 'everyone' the true meaning of this world once he achieves his newfound powers implies that humans and monsters are still around, and once he gets the 7th SOUL he will show them.
Well... this is relatively minor instead. They're full of DT and fight Frisk moments before they get to Asgore, plus they're 8-B anyways.
I think that an argument for them can be them also scaling from the Hotland/Waterfall monsters in speed, as Frisk at that point was well after it, so a suggestion can be this:
Massively Hypersonic+
At least Subsonic+, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ if option 1 isn't solid enough.
I mean. Multiple timelines are warped under his control, as he controls the game etc. etc., even if we don’t have a proof of him effecting other timelines in the game
Small gripe with this is that I disagree with SAVE Files representing the timeline the user has control over, I see it moreso representing a checkpoint in the timeline, even then it does show how much control Flowey has over the timeline eitherway so cool.
The "My World" thing could be interpreted in a couple ways, being a controller of the SAVE System would make the world your 'plaything' without you being low 2-C exactly, so to speak. Crashing the game and renaming the game Floweytale is interesting however.
Existence Erasure is really my only gripe with this, I disagree with erasing Frisk's SAVE file warranting that due to it moreso being just time manipulation, he is using his power of the save system to override and destroy the previous users checkpoint in time. I've mentioned this before but flowey saying he will show 'everyone' the true meaning of this world once he achieves his newfound powers implies that humans and monsters are still around, and once he gets the 7th SOUL he will show them.
Why you using data stuff as evidence lmfao? They're functionally different from Flowey's stuff who actually is the SAVE System but with other checkpoints, not that Frisk has 9 SAVE States that they can use.
Why you using data stuff as evidence lmfao? They're functionally different from Flowey's stuff who actually is the SAVE System but with other checkpoints, not that Frisk has 9 SAVE States that they can use.
I thought File 3 refers to that? I’m not that deep on UT mechanics tbh. Anyways, maybe give Photoshop Flowey Power Modification if he does not jump between timelines, since he changed how SAVE & LOAD work?
I thought File 3 refers to that? I’m not that deep on UT mechanics tbh. Anyways, maybe give Photoshop Flowey Power Modification if he does not jump between timelines, since he changed how SAVE & LOAD work?
Btw noticed that Asriel's "Discussion" part does not work, so I replaced the "{{Discussions}}" at the bottom of the page with "{{Discussions|Asriel Dreemurr Flowey|Asriel Dreemurr}}".
The ability to produce a great amount of projectiles at once, in order to overwhelm the target by the sheer number of shots. Some users also add complex patterns to make dodging difficult.
It being a pattern isn't mandatory, so it's a mistake on my part.
