Upgrade Yggdrasil/RKT/TWSAIS

[Alonik]

@ClassicNESfa I will answer every point, but I will not respond to redundant points that have been resolved throughout the thread. (1 and 5)

2. Exactly, it's this in Norse mythology, and this is an Adaptation of Norse mythology to a fantasy, so pick up the description of the ginnungagap from the Nordic source doesn't counter-argues the interaction that was addressed within the Marvel Universe.

Also, I think you ignored a lot of scans at that second point of yours, as you've been saying that TWSAIS aren't there at ginnungagap, but here it clearlyi The outside, that we must accept here as an aspect of the true oblivion. In Al Ewing's run, The Outside is out of everything, of all the influence even of the eighth eternity, so we can say that this is oblivion, since in al Ewing's own run, he has already said that the outside is oblivion.

So it's not a theory, since Loki finds the TWSAIS on the outside, which we know is beyond all eternity, that it is clearly said that there is their place of origin.


3. You misinterpreted, again, before the multiverse was destroyed it was already said that they were there. The conclusion that they fled the destruction of the multiverse with Loki is just a theory of your part.

4. Sorry, but you shuffled all the expression of the comic with your own interpretation, Erik solvong clearly says that the nine realms are just the tip-top of yggdrasil.

I don't know you misinterpreted the comic or what, but come on;

• Erik Solvong: "The asgardian world tree is kind of a map, okay? The nine worlds you recognize as being a part of yggdrasil are just the tip of... a maybe-infinite iceberg."

Here in this excerpt it says that the universes of yggdrasil are part of an iceberg (yggdrasil), not that Yggdrasil is part of an iceberg, as you quoted in your text "And Yggdrasil is just the tip of the iceberg!"

never was told "There are infinite universes out there!" Erik Solvong himself says the Asgardians believe there are only 9 worlds in Yggdrasil:

• Erik Solvong: "You might believe there are only nine worlds, but brother, i'm here to tell you... There's more. And They're hungry."

And Thor himself says that Erik Solvong was right and confirm what he said, in saying that the Asgardian's belief about existing only nine universes in yggdrasil was wrong. Erik Solvong himself is warked that the nine kingdoms were being invaded, and asks Thor to repicate Yggdrasil to prevent war between the main realms and the others.

This can all be found in this scan [1]

You sait "The entire plot of that storyline was about a race from a universe outside of Yggdrasil"

Here don't say anything about being out of Yggdrasil, jut are saying it's from outside the nine realms. What I showed now little that Erik Solvong's verbal agreement says it's wrong to interpret yggdrasil just as having only 9 realms.

You: "Even Heimdall apparently couldn't see them until they invaded the local nine realms"

You understand that he apparently didn't see it, but it's wrong, after all is saying that he saw it:

• Heimdall: I see the end! I see the end of all things!

and that it would entail at the end of it all, please don't implement things that don't exist in the scan.

You: "This suggests that there are universes outside of Yggdrasil"

Another thing that's not being passed in the scan. Balder states that when Heimdall looked at the entire yggdrasil, he was affected by strange visions of the enemies, withdraws your suggestion that "Heimdall could not see them".

• Balder: "Even Mighty heimdall has been driven mad by strange visions"

Regardless of whether the sight of heimdall was confused, it does not imply that it was coming from outside the yggdrasil, he looked inside the yggdrail, in her branches, including.

First, I should note that "plane" is being used as a stand in for "universe" in this context, as you can see here when Seth claims that destroying the Rainbow Road cut the Asgardians off from the "mortal plane" (i.e. the Earth universe).

This does not imply that seth is talking about universes, it just implies that the Mortal plan was separated from the immortal plan.

You made only one post hoc This does not change that seth wanted to destroy all plans of space and time, which includes anything that has space and time like; universes, kingdoms, adjacent dimensions, realities plans, level of reality and etc.

That being said, I don't think anything in this story ever indicated that the destruction of Yggdrasil would destroy infinite "planes." Yes, it's true that Seth at one point mentions that nobody "in any of the infinite planes" has ever assembled an army as large as his own, but that's just a boast about the size of his army. There is never any indication that infinite planes are actually in danger due to his attack on Yggdrasil.

In fact there is, here he himself says he would destroy all this plans of reality while mining a root of Yggdrasil.

Seth: "Once he has been eliminated, nothing can prevent me from destroying asgard and using it as a stepping stone to invade every other plane of reality!"

It's just you fit this with anyone's quote in the infinite plans of realities would face his army, it's because he was talking that he would invade them and destroy, please stop separating the contexts from the sequence of the scans.

Besides, I'm going to even reinforce this here

• Seth: "I pleasure, i assure you... I suppose it all began when i launched my most recent attack on yggdrasil, the world ash. The tree of life has three main roots, but it exists on every plane of reality. Employing some really nasty technology of my own design, i've been attempting to weaken it--"

The context is clear, Seth would use his entire army to destroy all the plans of reality, where in none of them had anything to face his army, and he had to attack Yggdrasil to corrupt her transdimensional nature, to be able to reach all the plans of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with ClassicNESfan about that anything beyond 2-C seems extremely unreliable and inconsistent (and in addition it would create an extremely exaggerated and unreliable scaling nightmare). Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

That said, there is one single piece of evidence that is more reliable, rather than being used for wild speculation, which is the Yggdrasil seed being described as being beyond our numerical system by the Silver Surfer. Given the context of the regular Yggdrasil generally being treated as a collection of 9 or 10 universes, it seems like extremely inconsistent hyperbole though, and is more likely simply the Surfer/the author referring to that the seed contains infinite power.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean, we saw in Hykuu's Odin-upgrade thread, what Yggdrasil actually encompasses has always been inconsistent, it has been dimensions, planets, multiverses or universes. I always thought the better alternative always was to scale Yggdrasil to other characters, since its statements are vastly inconsistent

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. We should preferably stick with how it was portrayed in each particular story.

Marvel is insanely inconsistent, and yet there is an ongoing tendency to use completely out of context and unrelated scans for wild speculation to relentlessly argue for extremely exaggerated statistics, rather than being responsible and trying to make the pages as reliable as possible, which is the intended spirit of the wiki. Whether this is intentional biased wanking or unintentional misunderstandings probably depends from case to case.

 

[Driger-God]

@Antvasima
Already was said in other post. Why you need said that "Marvel is insanely inconsistent" in each post? Stop pls

You ignore every scan or argument about Odin or Marvel Comics and make a direct attack every 5 seconds(To Marvel), in another post you said, "Don't use your own interpretation, just use what the scan shows.".
And when a scan of Brilliant City was used, you imposed your interpretation on some that were never aponted in stories. You interpret Marvel to downplay every cosmic event or char.

In this post, the arguments about Yggdrasil are only ignored or selectively descart with other interpretation(that no make sense) or with the ideia of chaos.

 

[Kepekley23]

Sorry, but ClassicNESFan's arguments seemed to be debunked here so far. For now I'm still in agreement with Alonik unless NESFan puts up a better argument forward.

 

[ZeedKZ]

Agree with Kep and Alonik, these arguments have been debunked

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies if I was rude above. I still think that it is necessary to remind people about how inconsistent Marvel is when they try to fit together completely disconnected stories for exaggerated scaling though.

 

[Driger-God]

If I came here and said "In X story Yggdrasil is treated as the multiverse" You would say that this is an isolated moment, and for this reason that we use scans from different stories to talk about the same thing

This would be

1. Yggdrasil has more than 9 realms, possibility infinite realms and Asgard

2. Marvel doesn't tend to work with Yggdrasil as with only the 9 standard realms, but with much more

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, we can still wait for a possible rebuttal from NESFan.

 

[Alonik]

In addition to all my position against NES, I believe that interpretation is by an out-of-context scan.

But the general context of the comic is that the realm of the World Eaters was one-tenth yggdrasil realm, but not from that branch of asgard. Thor himself says that Ano-Athox is a realm debut that is part of the Yggdrasil;

• Unknown Man: "Then who?... And if not here, where? If not you... if not here... then all of the world tree will burn.
• King Balder: "You all say your seers and shamen and mystics were affected before the attacs. Our own seer heimdall was felled by a vision."
• Thor: "it would seem an attack from this... Tenth world... is imminent."

In addition one of the beings who was attacked by the world eaters confirms for the Asgardian called Kelda, that they came from within the Yggdrasil, not from outside her.

• Unknown character: "The very fabric... of things... Is being ruptured and torn by strangeness. Something... Unholy... Erupting here. World Eaters coming. From inside, from below the surface."

The context says loud and clear, that kingdom was part of yggdrasil, only their world was not part of the cosmology that the asgardians BELIEVE.

Yggdrasil doesn't have only nine realms, circling that point is having the same skepticism that volstagg had when he was asked by Dr. Erik Solvong about the cosmology of yggdrasil.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

2. No, Those Who Sit Above In Shadow were very clearly the ones to approach him. He had something they wanted, so we can't be entirely sure where they came from in that scan. This is not evidence that they are naturally positioned in The Outside, only that they were there after the omniverse ended, which... yeah, that's where they would be. There was no longer a omniverse to be in. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to establish that this is their natural enviornment. I also have not seen any evidence that The Outside is Oblivio, but I'm open to an explanation.

3. No, that is speculation on your part. The narration does not even remotely say that. It says that they were outside the universes when Odi received his vision, but that does not automatically place Those Who Sit Above In Shadow in The Outside, as odd as that may sound. There are innumerable planes in Marvel that qualify as beyond and outside of all realities without automatically placing them at the highest possible plane in creation. Again, we can't just go tying together similar sounding concepts willy-nilly like that. The burden of proof is on you to establish that this line several issues prior to the death of the omniverse was a referring to The Outside specifically. Those Who Sit Above In Shadow clearly approach Loki after he lands.

4. Requoting things I already quoted will not fix your point here. It's clear that out of context, these scans can be interpreted to imply what you're suggesting, but in context, he clearly means that Yggdrasil's collection of nine universes is only the tip of the iceberg in regards to how many universes there are available. It's an expression. The entire plot of this story is about entities from a 10th universe invading the standard group of 9. Iron Ma even describes it as "the end of the world tree," implying that the invaders are from beyond the world tree. Things existing beyond the tree is literally the entire plot of this storyline, and it's ridiculous to use it as evidence that the tree encompasses everything. Heimdall clearly only started seeing disturbing visions of conquest after the invaders entered into the local nine realms, which makes sense, because again, Heimdell only sees the realms of Yggdrasil, which is nine universes- sometimes ten- but never infinity, at least not in this story. The very best you can swing for here is an ambiguous meaning, but even that's stretching it, and you're the one with the burden of proof. The wording here by itself can mean my interpretation or yours. I believe the greater context within greater canon and this storyline in particular favors mine, but at least attempt to make the argument that it favors yours. Posting more vauge quotes is not adequate here. We need something that unambiguously cannot be interpreted the way I am interpretting it. It would be very useful if you could just find a scan of somebody saying that the invaders came from another part of The World Tree or a part of the greater World Tree or something.

5. "Planes" are used to refer to "universes" or "realms" all the time in fiction, the Rainbow Bridge canonically connects Asgard to the Earth realm, that was the basis for his description of the various "planes," and practically every story available describes Yggdrasil as only encompassing nine/ten realms. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he meant "all plans of space and time, which includes anything that has space and time like; universes, kingdoms, adjacent dimensions, realities plans, level of reality and etc." It's not on me to prove that the meant the significantly more likely option. And if you intend to suggest that the "infinite planes of time and space" are the same thing as "every plane of reality," in this story then I'm afraid we're going to have to bump Odi up to 1-A too for battling a guy who caused shockwaves across every plane of reality. Isn't it just significantly more likely that the "reality" they are in has a limited number of "planes," while collectively all realities in existence have "infinite planes," explaining the obvious disparity here?

Frankly, I'm surprised that I even needed to respond to this because the "debunking" that was sent my way was very clearly filled with a lot of burden shifting and dubious claims. I am very busy right now due to the season, and I would prefer this not to turn into a dragged out thing, wherein I have to reply to every long rebuttal, no matter how crazy the argument gets.

In regards to later comments about the tree's inconsistency, Yggdrasil has previously been treated as only encompassing 9 planets in various parts of space, but later stories out and out claim they are universes. It is relatively unclear when exactly certain authors started treating all realms as segmented areas of spacetime, so I don't think there is anything wrong with scaling Yggdrasil feats to 2-C. After all, Odi and characters on his level have independant 2-C feats, and for all we know, the claims that Yggdrasil only connected 9 planets may have been the outlier itself. I don't think it's necessary to scale Yggdrasil on a story-by-story basis unless that story specifically treats it as something out of the ordinary, but I do think it is quite ridiculous to come up with a convoluted theory that every time Yggdrasil appears and is put in danger except for once it was a manifestation and not the real thing. It seems to me like a very apparent attempt to scale one or two characters to ridiculous heights without having to scale everybody who has ever threatened Yggdrasil to the same level due to the clear havoc it would reek upon our Marvel scaling system. I mean no disrespect, but as this thread has continued, these arguments have appeared to me more and more as a bunch of vague quotes and out of context explanations about the tree and various related concepts loosely tied together across years to give the appearance of a much larger structure that we can then use as an excuse to upgrade. But again, I don't mean that in any harsh way. Not trying to attack anybody or anything. I wish I had more time to work on the tact, but like I said before, I'm very busy. I hope this will suffice and any place wherein my manners may have faultered will be forgiven.

 

[Driger-God]

" Yggdrasil has previously been treated as only encompassing 9 planets in various parts of space"

Someone watched Thor(MCU)

Yggdrasil in their base definition, in first definition of what are nine realms was like dimensions that exist beyond the "mortal universe" . Description of Asgard: "Asgard, which exist other dimension than our own"

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Driger, I don't know how you missed this, but that's the definition I was defending. You and I agree on that. I find it absolutely appaling that you would try to accuse me of only watching the films after I've clearly displayed a knowledge set beyond that. I was saying that some stories describe them as planets, but they should be disregarded as outliers. Please actually read the response instead of trying to dunk on me. I'm very busy right now and frankly, shouldn't be wiki editing at all.

 

[Alonik]

@ClassicNESfa

2. Please read my points and interpret them, I sent a point where it shows that they were there before the multiverse end. You have to prove that they didn't get there until after the multiverse is over. Stop reversing the burden of proof with this ad ignorantiam.

'3.' Wrong, this is inconsistency of your of marvel's cosmology, in context they were outside all realities, which was approached as firmly outside the multiverse.

"Those Who Sit Above In Shadow clearly approach Loki after he lands."

That doesn't prove that they arrived along with Loki, it just proves that when Loki got there, they got him loki, are you paying attention to what you write?

Stop this headcanon, please prove your point. And it does not reverse the burden of proof again.

4. I sent there before your comment, the 2 statements to be from within yggdrasil.

And please stop it "You can't quote what I already quoted" you quoting something first doesn't make it valid.

5. I already proved it earlier, seth was using yggdrasil to invade all infinite planes of space and time. You just ignored it again, and keep accusing me of the burden of proof (even though I have proved it).

The problem here is noticeable that it is the scale of Odin and Seth, but this can simply be said to be an outlier, and besides, stop playing 1-A at all, this is only for what scales theeighth eternity.

No one proposed 1-A for Odin or Seth.

Yggdrasil has previously been treated as only encompassing 9 planets in various parts of space, but later stories out and out claim they are universes. It is relatively unclear when exactly certain authors started treating all realms as segmented areas of spacetime

FALSE, as Driger-God himself proved up there, Asgard from its inception was already a kingdom beyond the space and time of mortals.



And again, all the yggdrasil that were threatened were just the root of asgard, or midgard, the only person who destroyed the real one was RKT, and it wasn't just in a story that is portrayed as the roots being aspects of a higher one, they are several. In this post I sent several scans about it that were ignored, because it's better to keep spinning around the AP than odin would have, rather than remember that it doesn't scale AP to destroy the full Yggdrasil.

 

[Driger-God]

Driger, I don't know how you missed this, but that's the definition I was defending. You and I agree on that. I find it absolutely appaling that you would try to accuse me of only watching the films after I've clearly displayed a knowledge set beyond that. I was saying that some stories describe them as planets, but they should be disregarded as outliers. Please actually read the response instead of trying to dunk on me. I'm very busy right now and frankly, shouldn't be wiki editing at all.

When realms were described as planets? I don't remember of "realms" be only planets. In Journey Into Mystery realms exist in different dimension, and time and space. Thor vol 1, 2, 3 work with realms in other dimensional planes, even in handbook, the description of Yggdrasil is tend to more of 9 realm. Even description of Ultimate Universe, Loki, and other Comics described the realms of multiverse linked by Tree. In add: In Thor vol 1 e 2, Asgard is showed in higher planes of existence, in higher levels of space and time.

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously strongly agree with ClassicNESfan, and thank him for helping us out. It is very appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask Sera EX to comment here?

Edit: Never mind. I asked her.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

2. I'm sorry. I must have missed your scan. Can you please show me the scan that shows Those Who Sit Above In Shadow outside of the omniverse before Loki arrives again? I legitimately don't remember being linked any such thing. I would also still very much like a scan or statement proving that The Outside and Oblivio are one in the same.

3. Nope. Sorry. That's not how this works. You need evidence they were in The Outside specifically. There are far too many realms in Marvel that qualify as "outside the universes" for us to automatically link every realm described that way to The Outside. The burden is on you.

4. None of those statements said that the invaders were from within Yggdrasil. The two comments made by Dr. Solvong are ambiguous at best and determintal to your argument at worst when placed in context with the rest of the story. I understand you might be having some trouble understanding what I mean, so I will break it down for you for the sake of clarity.

Erik Solvong: "The asgardian world tree is kind of a map, okay? The nine worlds you recognize as being a part of yggdrasil are just the tip of... a maybe-infinite iceberg."

You see, without the greater context of the story, this statement can appear two different ways to an English speaker. First, there is your interpretation, which assumes that the sentence fragment "the nine worlds" is separate from "you recognize as being a part of Yggdrasil." This method of reading suggests that Yggdrasil itself is an infinite iceberg and the nine worlds are only the tip. Then there is my interpretation, which assumes the sentence fragment "you recognize as being a part of Yggdrasil" is a descriptive clause equating it to the statement "the nine worlds." In other words, the second interpretation can be rewritten as this without losing any meaning: "Yggdrasil is just the tip of a maybe-infinite iceberg." This interpretation would obviously suggest that Yggdrasil itself is only the nine universes, and the proverbial iceberg is the infinite other universes out there in the multiverse disconnected from Yggdrasil. The difference is that I believe my interpretation to be reenforced by the events of the actual story. Why, for example, would Iron Ma be describing an invasion into the local nine universes as "the end of the World Tree" if he had already been briefed on the fact that The World Tree was actually an infinite-universal megastructure? It doesn't make any sense. The narrative clearly favors my interpretation, but even if it didn't, it would still be your duty to provide evidence that your interpretation is the correct one. This quote is too ambiguous to get the job done by itself.

Erik Solvong: "You might believe there are only nine worlds, but brother, i'm here to tell you... There's more. And They're hungry."

This "evidence" is also far too ambiguous to be used in your favor. In fact, I should think this one's alternative interpretation is more clear than the previous one. By itself, sure, Dr. Solvong might be telling them there are more than nine worlds in The World Tree... but he could also be telling them there are more than nine worlds... you know... in general. There is no qualifier here specifying that when he says "there's more," he's saying they're i Yggdrasil. And again, the larger context would favor my interpretation, I think, because the entire plot of the story is a universe outside of the Asgardian cosmology and beyond Heimdall's vision invading the nine realms of Yggdrasil and causing havoc across the Asgardian cosmology. I am thoroughly open to being proven wrong on any of these points, but these two quotes are not going to do it for you. They are not specific enough on their own. And when not on their own, they practically betray you.

5. You did not prove it. You provided a scan wherein he said his army was bigger than any army ever assembled in "any of the infinite planes of time and space." It is literally just a boast about the size of his army that indicates he knows there are infinite realities. That's it. The only time multiple planes are directly affected in this storyline, they specify that they are talking about the planes within that reality. Words like "plane," "reality," "universe," "dimension," "multiverse," "omniverse," etc, can all mean different things depending upon the writer and context of the story. You see, the problem for you here is that all these statements are ridiculously consistent with the greater Marvel canon as long as we assume that "reality" is defined as "Marvel 616" and "plane" is defined as "universe" (as it appears to be in this scene that clearly makes reference to Midgard as a "plane.") If we use that method of interpretation, all the sudden, all the inconsistencies disappear. Seth claims he's created an army greater than any ever devised in any universe, he claims the Rainbow Bridge's destruction has cut Asgard off from Earth's universe, and his battle with Odi sends shockwaves across all the universes within Marvel 616 (in other words, all nine realms of Yggdrasil). So this is another scenario, wherein again, the quotes on their own are ambiguous, but in the greater context, your interpretation causes a dozen inconsistencies, one MASSIVELY oversized outlier for Odi, and asks us to treat every appearance of Yggdrasil except for one as a manifestation, despite no evidence of that existing in any of those stories. Mine just fits and causes none of those problems. The burden of proof is on you.

No, in my opinion, you have not provided a single adequate scan suggesting Yggdrasil is a manifestation most of the time it appears. It's fine if you think that you have, but I do not consider any of this evidence up to standards, so you can't use points I'm in disagreement about as evidence that your argument is consistent, because obviously, I'll disagree with that too. It might be consistent from your perspective, but it's only consistent from my perspective, if you can legitimize the evidence.

 

[Kepekley23]

I still agree with Alonik. In addition, considering that the Norns, who manipulate the concept of fate across the World Tree, were referred to as controlling fate on a multiversal scale and have even been stated as entities on a greater level than the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and Infinity, it's clear that the Tree extends far beyond the 9 realms themselves.

And Thor destroyed the Tapestry of Fate and ceased to be.

 

[Kepekley23]

> I would also still very much like a scan or statement proving that The Outside and Oblivion are one in the same.

• "The war of Existence versus Oblivion. The Inside versus The Outside.

• "They cannot fathom that even Death may die, and only Oblivion can be victor here. (Galactus very briefly evacuates to the Outside in order to survive the destruction of the Superflow, and stresses that if Eternity is destroyed, everything except Oblivion will be taken out with it)

• "I fell into Oblivion...and saw what lay Beyond" (The First Firmament torturing Eternity)

So yeah, Oblivion = the Outside. Blatantly so.

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, considering that the Norns, who manipulate the concept of fate across the World Tree, were referred to as controlling fate on a multiversal scale and have even been stated as entities on a greater level than the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and Infinity, it's clear that the Tree extends far beyond the 9 realms themselves.

I definitely don't remember seeing any reliable unambiguous evidence of this.

 

[Kepekley23]

Eternity himself states that The Fates were the ones responsible for deciding Adam Warlock's fate. When Warlock asks Infinity why it happened she states the decision came from a level beyond the Tribunal. The context is non-ambiguous. The Fates are mentioned quite a few times in the storyline.

 

[Antvasima]

If you are talking about the aftermath to the original Infinity Gauntlet saga in the early 1990s, I extremely strongly doubt that Jim Starlin was referring to the Asgardian Norns, rather than to Above All Others, especially given that he has never shown them in any of his stories.

 

[Sera_EX]

All I care about is the power-scaling. As long as no one scales to the 1-A stuff, I don't think the tree being Low 1-A matters.

 

[Kepekley23]

If you are talking about the aftermath to the original Infinity Gauntlet saga in the early 1990s, I extremely strongly doubt that Jim Starlin was referring to the Asgardian Norns, rather than to Above All Others, especially given that he has never shown them in any of his stories.

• "What were The Fates thinking when they let this travesty take place?"

A few pages later:

• "The decision was made on a level even beyond the Living Tribunal's hierarchical position"

The context is clear, Ant.

 

[Kepekley23]

To confirm the context, here is what the opening page of the storyline has to say about it. The Tribunal himself states that Destiny has charted a new course for the cosmos, and that he has no influence on its decision. Eternity states the Fates were out of their minds for weaving such a destiny for the cosmos, and Infinity then confirms Fates/Norns (same beings) > TLT.

So yes, TLT is inferior to the Norse Norns at full power.

 

[Sera_EX]

Why are we assuming not having influence over something means that character is inferior? That's flawed logic (and it's similar to a certain fallacy...). AP doesn't work like that.

 

[Kepekley23]

• "The decision was made on a level even beyond the Living Tribunal's lofty hierarchical station.

 

[Sera_EX]

Hmm... I feel Norns is just the Asgardian name for something. Marvel does make it clear that different myths have their own interpretations of certain cosmic beings and concepts (for example, Mikaboshi is in some ways the Japanese name/version/aspect of Oblivion).

 

[Alonik]

I totally agree with Sera EX, marvel has always worked that way on how each mythology sees some cosmic beings or concepts in the image of that myth. And part of that concept goes into a lot of things that i've said.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

The problem is that the Yggdrasil is generally just portrayed as a 2-C construct, and that every character who has ever threatened it, including Surtur, and all comparable or more powerful characters, would also scale to Low 1-A, which doesn't make any sense.

@Kepekley

My apologies, but that is very bad and speculative evidence based on a figure of speech from Eternity, especially given that Jim Starlin has not featured these characters in any of his stories.

 

[Driger-God]

@Sera
The problem is that the Yggdrasil is generally just portrayed as a 2-C construct, and that every character who has ever threatened it, including Surtur, and all comparable or more powerful characters, would also scale to Low 1-A, which doesn't make any sense.

@Kepekley

My apologies, but that is very bad and speculative evidence based on a figure of speech from Eternity, especially given that Jim Starlin has not featured these characters in any of his stories.

Surtur can't scale to Yggdrasil Surtur is part of Yggdrasil, the problem here is that you think that Yggdrasil don't have manifestation of himself in each universe, Norns|Fates use Yggdrasil to write the storie, and even Surtur was showed to be part of this "storie".

Odin too is part of Yggdrasil, like all gods. Odin, Surtur can't scale with Yggdrasil

 

[Kepekley23]

@Kepekley

My apologies, but that is very bad and speculative evidence based on a figure of speech from Eternity, especially given that Jim Starlin has not featured these characters in any of his stories.

k then, whatever you think.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Antvasima

Not exactly. See, the Tree can be Low 1-A and no one scales because it would be an outlier. On the other hand it's possible that the Low 1-A Yggdrasill is the complete full tree, with the 2-C version just being its manifestations in each universe similar to how the abstracts have multiversal variants.

 

[Kepekley23]

Hmm... I feel Norns is just the Asgardian name for something. Marvel does make it clear that different myths have their own interpretations of certain cosmic beings and concepts (for example, Mikaboshi is in some ways the Japanese name/version/aspect of Oblivion).

This is true.

Every myth has its own view of reality, which is simultaneously not lesser in scale compared to the multiverse at large.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, somebody needs to show very good coherent evidence that is not reliant on interpretation for a Low 1-A scale. We do have one possible straightforward scan regarding the world tree seed, but not anything else that seems reliable. Also, why shouldn't we consider Rune King Thor to only have affected the regular 2-C version of the tree in that case, or that it was an outlier for that matter?

Regarding the Fates: Yes, regular pantheonic deities can be lower aspects for an immeasurably higher conceptual entity, but in that case this would apply to the Asgardian Norns, strictly responsible for weaving fates for the 9 worlds, and would not be anywhere near the full entities. In addition, no writer has displayed any multiversal conceptual entities called the Fates yet, and Jim Starlin would certainly have displayed them in his hierarchy list for the 7th multiverse if that had been the case.

 

[Alonik]

Also, why shouldn't we consider Rune King Thor to only have affected the regular 2-C version of the tree in that case, or that it was an outlier for that matter?

I've shown several times that it was the real Yggdrasil. And there's no way to be an outlier because it's an isolated version of Thor, which was even amped.

 

[Kepekley23]

Regular pantheonic deities CAN be multiversal deities, not just aspects of one. All Marvel deities have the potential to be multiversal, Ant, just like in American Gods.

The Chaos King? He is not a different entity than Amatsu Mikaboshi like our headcanon claims. HE IS Mikaboshi. Yet he is just an infinitesimal aspect of Oblivion within a single pantheon. Same for Nyx.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, why shouldn't we consider Rune King Thor to only have affected the regular 2-C version of the tree in that case, or that it was an outlier for that matter?

How can a character with zero anti-feats who only appeared in a single run be an outlier?