God of War Dimensional Downgrade Part 1(???): The Yggdrasil

[Theglassman12]

Still not really convinced by the OP's arguments tbh.

 

[TyphonEX]

It is directly brought up in the thread following it though?

No it doesn't? Even this thread (the thread following the RBR thread) is basically just agreement, side discussion, and refuting the argument that the cookbook statement is "flowery language." I can't find anything about the extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension. You have said both here and in the Yggdrasil thread that "As such, we know that the World Tree spans an infinite amount of this 5-dimensional space," but this doesn't actually say anything at all about the Yggdrasil's extent in the 5th dimension. It can occupy an infinite, 4D portion of the 5-dimensional space, but as long as it doesn't have any significant extent in the 5th dimension as well, it does not scale to Low 1-C. That is a point that DontTalkDT made clear, and it was promptly forgotten after DontTalkDT stopped getting involved in GOW's Low 1-C upgrade threads. In his own words, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially." The Yggdrasil can literally extend infinitely within 5D space without being Low 1-C. The problem is that it has to extend to a substantial extent in ALL of its dimensions to be Low 1-C. But don't forget the fact that I've already demonstrated that a 5th dimension is completely unnecessary here since the Nine Realms, while separated, are still spatially finite, and thus do not need to be either parallel or embedded in a higher dimensional space.

The facts of the matter are; spatially 3-dimensional realm travel never happens in the setting at all. You have not showcased such a fact beyond backwards reasoning nor has anything of the sort been implied. We've been told and shown methods of travel and none allow for regular movement.

That is due to Odin sealing off travel between realms. All this speculation about a 5th dimensional axis is entirely unnecessary headcanon, and also because Norse GOW characters have never showcased infinite or even MFTL travel speed or the like.

The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence. This alone disabuses anyone of any idea that they might share the basic 3 dimensions of space.

There are so many problems with what you just said. First of all, that is a complete non-sequitur. Your conclusion has almost nothing to do with your premise at all, and there is no logical connection between them. How does "they cannot share the basic 3 dimensions of space" follow from "The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence." That is illogical. Second of all, the developers said that they exist in the same physical space on top of each other. How is that possible if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? Third of all, how can they be parallel if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? At that point, they'd be skew, and that's an entirely different discussion.

They have their own timelines which disabuses any notion of them sharing a temporal dimension

Again, this is a non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow from your claim.

@Ultima_Reality Since people aren't too keen on trying to get @DontTalkDT in here, your input would likely be greatly valued.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Disagree fra with Planck's reasonings

 

[karo_senpaii]

In addition to me pointing out the fact that the realms do not need to be separated by a 5th dimensional axis at all since they don't infinitely extend in all 4 of their dimensions, there's actually no proof that even if they were, that the Realm between Realms would extend in any substantial direction in the 5th dimension. DontTalkDT actually pointed out in the RBR upgrade thread that "Whether it [Realm Between Realms] would be 5D in a Tiering System applicable (i.e. Low 1-C) way would be another point of debate" and the alleged extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension is never really revisited at all later in the thread iirc. Even IF we accept the 5th dimension as being necessary (and I've already demonstrated that it isn't for these spatially-finite Nine Realms), we don't know if the Realm Between Realms is just another 4D realm with 0 5D "volume" sandwiched in between the realms or if it actually substantially extends in the 5th dimension. No evidence has been provided for this either.

If you believe they don't need to be separated by a 5th dimensional axis, then your job is a two-step process.
1. create a staff thread and with your sufficient points get staffs to agree with your CRT changing the rules the faq has on 4d spaces or universes being separated by a 5th dimensional axis.
2. When you successfully do that come back and downgrade GOW

 

[karo_senpaii]

No it doesn't? Even this thread (the thread following the RBR thread) is basically just agreement, side discussion, and refuting the argument that the cookbook statement is "flowery language." I can't find anything about the extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension. You have said both here and in the Yggdrasil thread that "As such, we know that the World Tree spans an infinite amount of this 5-dimensional space," but this doesn't actually say anything at all about the Yggdrasil's extent in the 5th dimension. It can occupy an infinite, 4D portion of the 5-dimensional space, but as long as it doesn't have any significant extent in the 5th dimension as well, it does not scale to Low 1-C. That is a point that DontTalkDT made clear, and it was promptly forgotten after DontTalkDT stopped getting involved in GOW's Low 1-C upgrade threads. In his own words, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially." The Yggdrasil can literally extend infinitely within 5D space without being Low 1-C.

Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least

You are correct in most points but it's pretty important to mention that the realm between realms was created by the movement of it's branches, and hence why we consider it to be infinite in all of it's dimensions.

 

[TyphonEX]

1. create a staff thread and with your sufficient points get staffs to agree with your CRT changing the rules the faq has on 4d spaces or universes being separated by a 5th dimensional axis.

The FAQ does not have a rule on that. All the FAQ says about that is that "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them" [emphasis added]. That does not mean that they are always separated along a 5th dimensional axis nor does it mean that they are separated along a 5th dimensional axis by default.

For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR

Wrong. As DontTalkDT said, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

Also, the branches are not embedded in the RBR. How the **** can they encompass the RBR while being embedded in it as an infinitesimal portion of it? That makes zero sense.

the realm between realms was created by the movement of it's branches, and hence why we consider it to be infinite in all of it's dimensions.

That literally makes no sense whatsoever. Why the **** does that mean that it has to be infinite in all of its dimensions?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

That literally makes no sense whatsoever. Why the **** does that mean that it has to be infinite in all of its dimensions?

The branches are infinite.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

It is directly brought up in the thread following it though? This entire thread feels less like its been properly thought and more like it latches onto disparate parts of prior CRTs, given that the infinite length of the Yggdrasil's branches, and thus the infinite extent of the 5-dimensional separation is directly elaborated both on the page and on the upgrade CRTs.

The facts of the matter are; spatially 3-dimensional realm travel never happens in the setting at all. You have not showcased such a fact beyond backwards reasoning nor has anything of the sort been implied. We've been told and shown methods of travel and none allow for regular movement. That's all we have to go off of on top of the below;

The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence. This alone disabuses anyone of any idea that they might lshare the basic 3 dimensions of space.

• If they exist in the same physical space they are in the same universe, just like multiple object exist in the same physical universe. Different plane of existence refers to their physical position in the same physical space/universe.
• Also, the sun and moon, is considered to be separated/different from Midgard. Which indicates that midgard's size is doesn't include the sky, also on the god of war ragnarok edition, the full map is presented and the realms are never depicted has universes, the tree, physically holds the tree, just a like how a large 3d object would, the tree doesn't embed anything. They seem to be more like ''parallel realities'' of land mass sizes.
• The tree has a center. A center indicates that an item has a distinct midway or spot from which measurements may be made in all directions. If an item has a center, you can determine a limited distance from it to its edges or bounds, debunking the notion of it being infinite. The tree branches can become too heavy and fall of, and can be overgrown which shouldn't happen if it truly was infinite in size, that also debunks the tree branches being infinite.
• They can be separate dimensions of whatever size and reside in the same physical space or the universe. And you can walk between the realms you would just be in the same respective realm on tyr's temple (ends at 38:39). Its also stated by surtr that Niflheim and muspelheim physically meet.
• Gjallarhorn's codex entry is a contradiction, if they were different universes or space-time, it should bridge the space-time between them, not the space between them this proves essentially that they are physical structures in a space.

They have their own timelines which disabuses any notion of them sharing a temporal dimension and finally, they're on disparate branches of the Yggdrasil.

• We know the byfrost light of Alfheim is whats between the 9 realms according to freya. We also know that this same light causes time dilation, the example being with atreus removing kratos from that light, and the former, thinking he was gone for a short time, when this wasn't the case for atreus. According to Freya, the 9 realms exist in the same physical space , reflection of each other, which means they are all under the same universe, same space, under the same single flow of time being dilated by the byfrost light when one decides to realm travel. Time dilation exist even in real life with planets of our solar system, that doesn't make those planets different universes just because of that.

Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least

1. As i proved above, the realms are never depicted as 4d structures, just 3d structure, that aren't space-times or universes.
2. Address above, they physically meet according to surtr. Because they share the same physical space, reflections of each other, this means they exist inside the same physical/3d universe, whatever separates them must also be inside this same physical space.
3. I addressed the whole the tree is infinite in size above. The branches and the tree itself is not infinite (addressed above), the whole ''each branch spreads out to infinitely'' is a case of not understand what this phrase means, it's just saying the branches stretch to a direction, it doesn't say it reached it. Just like someone can stretch their arm to reach clouds from their initial position, it doesn't mean they reached it. Because the tree physical holds the same 9 realms that all exist in the same physical space/universe, the tree is also contain inside that same physical space, thus it cannot be 4d.
4. They dont spread infinitly (not even what the original novel statement says), they aren't embedded in a space, they just physical support realms that exists in the same universe.
5. It encompass the ''entire thing'' just like how large 3d object would for smaller 3d objects.

 

[karo_senpaii]

The FAQ does not have a rule on that. All the FAQ says about that is that "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them" [emphasis added]. That does not mean that they are always separated along a 5th dimensional axis nor does it mean that they are separated along a 5th dimensional axis by default.

Wrong. As DontTalkDT said, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

Also, the branches are not embedded in the RBR. How the **** can they encompass the RBR while being embedded in it as an infinitesimal portion of it? That makes zero sense.

1. It literally means that yes.
2. The branches don't encompass it. The tree itself does

 

[karo_senpaii]

• If they exist in the same physical space they are in the same universe, just like multiple object exist in the same physical universe. Different plane of existence refers to their physical position in the same physical space/universe.
• Also, the sun and moon, is considered to be separated/different from Midgard. Which indicates that midgard's size is doesn't include the sky, also on the god of war ragnarok edition, the full map is presented and the realms are never depicted has universes, the tree, physically holds the tree, just a like how a large 3d object would, the tree doesn't embed anything. They seem to be more like ''parallel realities'' of land mass sizes.
• The tree has a center. A center indicates that an item has a distinct midway or spot from which measurements may be made in all directions. If an item has a center, you can determine a limited distance from it to its edges or bounds, debunking the notion of it being infinite. The tree branches can become too heavy and fall of, and can be overgrown which shouldn't happen if it truly was infinite in size, that also debunks the tree branches being infinite.
• They can be separate dimensions of whatever size and reside in the same physical space or the universe. And you can walk between the realms you would just be in the same respective realm on tyr's temple (ends at 38:39). Its also stated by surtr that Niflheim and muspelheim physically meet.
• Gjallarhorn's codex entry is a contradiction, if they were different universes or space-time, it should bridge the space-time between them, not the space between them this proves essentially that they are physical structures in a space.

• We know the byfrost light of Alfheim is whats between the 9 realms according to freya. We also know that this same light causes time dilation, the example being with atreus removing kratos from that light, and the former, thinking he was gone for a short time, when this wasn't the case for atreus. According to Freya, the 9 realms exist in the same physical space , reflection of each other, which means they are all under the same universe, same space, under the same single flow of time being dilated by the byfrost light when one decides to realm travel. Time dilation exist even in real life with planets of our solar system, that doesn't make those planets different universes just because of that.

1. As i proved above, the realms are never depicted as 4d structures, just 3d structure, that aren't space-times or universes.
2. Address above, they physically meet according to surtr. Because they share the same physical space, reflections of each other, this means they exist inside the same physical/3d universe, whatever separates them must also be inside this same physical space.
3. I addressed the whole the tree is infinite in size above. The branches and the tree itself is not infinite (addressed above), the whole ''each branch spreads out to infinitely'' is a case of not understand what this phrase means, it's just saying the branches stretch to a direction, it doesn't say it reached it. Just like someone can stretch their arm to reach clouds from their initial position, it doesn't mean they reached it. Because the tree physical holds the same 9 realms that all exist in the same physical space/universe, the tree is also contain inside that same physical space, thus it cannot be 4d.
4. They dont spread infinitly (not even what the original novel statement says), they aren't embedded in a space, they just physical support realms that exists in the same universe.
5. It encompass the ''entire thing'' just like how large 3d object would for smaller 3d objects.

If you think the realms are 3D structures then man you have a completely different argument. you basically think the reals are 2D+1D of time?

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

If you think the realms are 3D structures then man you have a completely different argument. you basically think the reals are 2D+1D of time?

3d physically+1 temporal dimension, not 4d spatially. Unless you think us humans are also 4d because we are physically 3d with 1 time dimension in the universe.

 

[karo_senpaii]

3d physically+1 temporal dimension, not 4d spatially. Unless you think us humans are also 4d because we are physically 3d with 1 time dimension in the universe.

I assure you absolutely no one here thinks the realms are 4D spatially

 

[CodeCCLL]

3d physically+1 temporal dimension, not 4d spatially. Unless you think us humans are also 4d because we are physically 3d with 1 time dimension in the universe.

I'm sure no one has claimed that the realms themselves have 4 spatial axes.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

I assure you absolutely no one here thinks the realms are 4D spatially

I'm sure no one has claimed that the realms themselves have 4 spatial axes.

It was to prove the tree, the realms, are all in 1 single 3d universe. Therefor, neither of them are 4d, or 5d spatially including the tree, they are all 3d structures.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It was to prove the tree, the realms, are all in 1 single 3d universe. Therefor, neither of them are 4d, or 5d spatially including the tree, they are all 3d structures.

so you are saying the realms are 3D, the space separating them is 3D, the infinite branches and the tree encompassing them are all 3D. You're obtuse and it's pointless arguing further. This thread is already rejected and will soon be closed

 

[TyphonEX]

1. It literally means that yes.
2. The branches don't encompass it. The tree itself does

1. "Frequently" does not mean "always." They might be separated along a 5th dimensional axis, but you cannot assume this without actual evidence.
2. Do you think the trunk encompasses the branches or something like that? Otherwise, what part of the tree is going to encompass the RBR if not the branches?

And again, you have not addressed the fact that an infinite object can be embedded in a higher dimensional space that is NOT of substantial size. That much is acknowledged by DontTalkDT for example. You don't NEED a space that extends substantially in the 5th dimension to embed an infinite 4D structure. "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

so you are saying the realms are 3D, the space separating them is 3D, the infinite branches and the tree encompassing them are all 3D. You're obtuse and it's pointless arguing further. This thread is already rejected and will soon be closed

The tree itself is 3d, the tree branches, the realms, and the space in between them are also all 3d all contain in the larger 3d universe. The branches are not infinite. Your claim of me being obtuse unfounded and lacks evidence. The thread can be rejected, doesn't invalided the arguments presented for it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

1. "Frequently" does not mean "always." They might be separated along a 5th dimensional axis, but you cannot assume this without actual evidence.
2. Do you think the trunk encompasses the branches or something like that? Otherwise, what part of the tree is going to encompass the RBR if not the branches?

And again, you have not addressed the fact that an infinite object can be embedded in a higher dimensional space that is NOT of substantial size. That much is acknowledged by DontTalkDT for example. You don't NEED a space that extends substantially in the 5th dimension to embed an infinite 4D structure. "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

1. Actually we do assume sometimes but let's not digress. The way we treat is that by default we assume the space is 5d but if there is counter evidence present it.
2. yes that's how it is worded from what i see. It's a magical tree, don't dwell too much on how it would encompass.
3. you do have a point about the volume and if the infinte statement was in reference to spacetimes or universes I would agree with you but from the way it is worded the stretched out seems to imply it is occupying volume in the RBR and as such it would apply to the infinite statement. I could be wrong as I'm not an expert

The tree itself is 3d, the tree branches, the realms, and the space in between them are also all 3d all contain in the larger 3d universe. The branches are not infinite. Your claim of me being obtuse unfounded and lacks evidence. The thread can be rejected, doesn't invalided the arguments presented for it.

alright