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God of War Dimensional Downgrade Part 1(???): The Yggdrasil

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Planck69 said:
It is directly brought up in the thread following it though?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't? Even this thread (the thread following the RBR thread) is basically just agreement, side discussion, and refuting the argument that the cookbook statement is "flowery language." I can't find anything about the extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension. You have said both here and in the Yggdrasil thread that "As such, we know that the World Tree spans an infinite amount of this 5-dimensional space," but this doesn't actually say anything at all about the Yggdrasil's extent in the 5th dimension. It can occupy an infinite, 4D portion of the 5-dimensional space, but as long as it doesn't have any significant extent in the 5th dimension as well, it does not scale to Low 1-C. That is a point that DontTalkDT made clear, and it was promptly forgotten after DontTalkDT stopped getting involved in GOW's Low 1-C upgrade threads. In his own words, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially." The Yggdrasil can literally extend infinitely within 5D space without being Low 1-C. The problem is that it has to extend to a substantial extent in ALL of its dimensions to be Low 1-C. But don't forget the fact that I've already demonstrated that a 5th dimension is completely unnecessary here since the Nine Realms, while separated, are still spatially finite, and thus do not need to be either parallel or embedded in a higher dimensional space.
Planck69 said:
The facts of the matter are; spatially 3-dimensional realm travel never happens in the setting at all. You have not showcased such a fact beyond backwards reasoning nor has anything of the sort been implied. We've been told and shown methods of travel and none allow for regular movement.
Click to expand...
That is due to Odin sealing off travel between realms. All this speculation about a 5th dimensional axis is entirely unnecessary headcanon, and also because Norse GOW characters have never showcased infinite or even MFTL travel speed or the like.
Planck69 said:
The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence. This alone disabuses anyone of any idea that they might share the basic 3 dimensions of space.
Click to expand...
There are so many problems with what you just said. First of all, that is a complete non-sequitur. Your conclusion has almost nothing to do with your premise at all, and there is no logical connection between them. How does "they cannot share the basic 3 dimensions of space" follow from "The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence." That is illogical. Second of all, the developers said that they exist in the same physical space on top of each other. How is that possible if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? Third of all, how can they be parallel if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? At that point, they'd be skew, and that's an entirely different discussion.
Planck69 said:
They have their own timelines which disabuses any notion of them sharing a temporal dimension
Click to expand...
Again, this is a non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow from your claim.

@Ultima_Reality Since people aren't too keen on trying to get @DontTalkDT in here, your input would likely be greatly valued.
 
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TyphonEX said:
In addition to me pointing out the fact that the realms do not need to be separated by a 5th dimensional axis at all since they don't infinitely extend in all 4 of their dimensions, there's actually no proof that even if they were, that the Realm between Realms would extend in any substantial direction in the 5th dimension. DontTalkDT actually pointed out in the RBR upgrade thread that "Whether it [Realm Between Realms] would be 5D in a Tiering System applicable (i.e. Low 1-C) way would be another point of debate" and the alleged extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension is never really revisited at all later in the thread iirc. Even IF we accept the 5th dimension as being necessary (and I've already demonstrated that it isn't for these spatially-finite Nine Realms), we don't know if the Realm Between Realms is just another 4D realm with 0 5D "volume" sandwiched in between the realms or if it actually substantially extends in the 5th dimension. No evidence has been provided for this either.
Click to expand...
If you believe they don't need to be separated by a 5th dimensional axis, then your job is a two-step process.
1. create a staff thread and with your sufficient points get staffs to agree with your CRT changing the rules the faq has on 4d spaces or universes being separated by a 5th dimensional axis.
2. When you successfully do that come back and downgrade GOW
 
TyphonEX said:
No it doesn't? Even this thread (the thread following the RBR thread) is basically just agreement, side discussion, and refuting the argument that the cookbook statement is "flowery language." I can't find anything about the extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension. You have said both here and in the Yggdrasil thread that "As such, we know that the World Tree spans an infinite amount of this 5-dimensional space," but this doesn't actually say anything at all about the Yggdrasil's extent in the 5th dimension. It can occupy an infinite, 4D portion of the 5-dimensional space, but as long as it doesn't have any significant extent in the 5th dimension as well, it does not scale to Low 1-C. That is a point that DontTalkDT made clear, and it was promptly forgotten after DontTalkDT stopped getting involved in GOW's Low 1-C upgrade threads. In his own words, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially." The Yggdrasil can literally extend infinitely within 5D space without being Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least
 
karo_senpaii said:
Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least
Click to expand...
You are correct in most points but it's pretty important to mention that the realm between realms was created by the movement of it's branches, and hence why we consider it to be infinite in all of it's dimensions.
 
karo_senpaii said:
1. create a staff thread and with your sufficient points get staffs to agree with your CRT changing the rules the faq has on 4d spaces or universes being separated by a 5th dimensional axis.
Click to expand...
The FAQ does not have a rule on that. All the FAQ says about that is that "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them" [emphasis added]. That does not mean that they are always separated along a 5th dimensional axis nor does it mean that they are separated along a 5th dimensional axis by default.
karo_senpaii said:
For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
Click to expand...
Wrong. As DontTalkDT said, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

Also, the branches are not embedded in the RBR. How the **** can they encompass the RBR while being embedded in it as an infinitesimal portion of it? That makes zero sense.
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
the realm between realms was created by the movement of it's branches, and hence why we consider it to be infinite in all of it's dimensions.
Click to expand...
That literally makes no sense whatsoever. Why the **** does that mean that it has to be infinite in all of its dimensions?
 
Planck69 said:
It is directly brought up in the thread following it though? This entire thread feels less like its been properly thought and more like it latches onto disparate parts of prior CRTs, given that the infinite length of the Yggdrasil's branches, and thus the infinite extent of the 5-dimensional separation is directly elaborated both on the page and on the upgrade CRTs.

The facts of the matter are; spatially 3-dimensional realm travel never happens in the setting at all. You have not showcased such a fact beyond backwards reasoning nor has anything of the sort been implied. We've been told and shown methods of travel and none allow for regular movement. That's all we have to go off of on top of the below;

The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence. This alone disabuses anyone of any idea that they might lshare the basic 3 dimensions of space.
Click to expand...
Planck69 said:
They have their own timelines which disabuses any notion of them sharing a temporal dimension and finally, they're on disparate branches of the Yggdrasil.
Click to expand...

karo_senpaii said:
Your arguments seems a bit off. They are not saying it extends infinitely within the 5D space and thus it is Low 1c. This is what is being said.
1. The realms are 4D space times
2. They are not touching each other hence the space separating them by default must be 5D according to faq. No low 1C yet coz insignificant size
3. In this 5D space each branch spreads out infinitely. Whether the branch is 4D or 5D is irrelevant coz it seems this is where you have the problem.
4. For branches that spread out infinitely each to be embedded in a space the space must be hella large i.e significant in size i.e low 1C RBR
5. The tree itself (Yggdrasil) is stated to encompass the entire thing including the RBR hence the yggdrasil itself must be low 1C. It's like if you have a universe inside of you then you yourself must be low2c at least
Click to expand...
  1. As i proved above, the realms are never depicted as 4d structures, just 3d structure, that aren't space-times or universes.
  2. Address above, they physically meet according to surtr. Because they share the same physical space, reflections of each other, this means they exist inside the same physical/3d universe, whatever separates them must also be inside this same physical space.
  3. I addressed the whole the tree is infinite in size above. The branches and the tree itself is not infinite (addressed above), the whole ''each branch spreads out to infinitely'' is a case of not understand what this phrase means, it's just saying the branches stretch to a direction, it doesn't say it reached it. Just like someone can stretch their arm to reach clouds from their initial position, it doesn't mean they reached it. Because the tree physical holds the same 9 realms that all exist in the same physical space/universe, the tree is also contain inside that same physical space, thus it cannot be 4d.
  4. They dont spread infinitly (not even what the original novel statement says), they aren't embedded in a space, they just physical support realms that exists in the same universe.
  5. It encompass the ''entire thing'' just like how large 3d object would for smaller 3d objects.
 
TyphonEX said:
The FAQ does not have a rule on that. All the FAQ says about that is that "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them" [emphasis added]. That does not mean that they are always separated along a 5th dimensional axis nor does it mean that they are separated along a 5th dimensional axis by default.

Wrong. As DontTalkDT said, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."

Also, the branches are not embedded in the RBR. How the **** can they encompass the RBR while being embedded in it as an infinitesimal portion of it? That makes zero sense.
Click to expand...
1. It literally means that yes.
2. The branches don't encompass it. The tree itself does
 
Borutonarutodebunked said:



  1. As i proved above, the realms are never depicted as 4d structures, just 3d structure, that aren't space-times or universes.
  2. Address above, they physically meet according to surtr. Because they share the same physical space, reflections of each other, this means they exist inside the same physical/3d universe, whatever separates them must also be inside this same physical space.
  3. I addressed the whole the tree is infinite in size above. The branches and the tree itself is not infinite (addressed above), the whole ''each branch spreads out to infinitely'' is a case of not understand what this phrase means, it's just saying the branches stretch to a direction, it doesn't say it reached it. Just like someone can stretch their arm to reach clouds from their initial position, it doesn't mean they reached it. Because the tree physical holds the same 9 realms that all exist in the same physical space/universe, the tree is also contain inside that same physical space, thus it cannot be 4d.
  4. They dont spread infinitly (not even what the original novel statement says), they aren't embedded in a space, they just physical support realms that exists in the same universe.
  5. It encompass the ''entire thing'' just like how large 3d object would for smaller 3d objects.
Click to expand...
If you think the realms are 3D structures then man you have a completely different argument. you basically think the reals are 2D+1D of time?
 
karo_senpaii said:
If you think the realms are 3D structures then man you have a completely different argument. you basically think the reals are 2D+1D of time?
Click to expand...
3d physically+1 temporal dimension, not 4d spatially. Unless you think us humans are also 4d because we are physically 3d with 1 time dimension in the universe.
 
Borutonarutodebunked said:
It was to prove the tree, the realms, are all in 1 single 3d universe. Therefor, neither of them are 4d, or 5d spatially including the tree, they are all 3d structures.
Click to expand...
so you are saying the realms are 3D, the space separating them is 3D, the infinite branches and the tree encompassing them are all 3D. You're obtuse and it's pointless arguing further. This thread is already rejected and will soon be closed
 
karo_senpaii said:
1. It literally means that yes.
2. The branches don't encompass it. The tree itself does
Click to expand...
  1. "Frequently" does not mean "always." They might be separated along a 5th dimensional axis, but you cannot assume this without actual evidence.
  2. Do you think the trunk encompasses the branches or something like that? Otherwise, what part of the tree is going to encompass the RBR if not the branches?
And again, you have not addressed the fact that an infinite object can be embedded in a higher dimensional space that is NOT of substantial size. That much is acknowledged by DontTalkDT for example. You don't NEED a space that extends substantially in the 5th dimension to embed an infinite 4D structure. "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."
 
karo_senpaii said:
so you are saying the realms are 3D, the space separating them is 3D, the infinite branches and the tree encompassing them are all 3D. You're obtuse and it's pointless arguing further. This thread is already rejected and will soon be closed
Click to expand...
The tree itself is 3d, the tree branches, the realms, and the space in between them are also all 3d all contain in the larger 3d universe. The branches are not infinite. Your claim of me being obtuse unfounded and lacks evidence. The thread can be rejected, doesn't invalided the arguments presented for it.
 
TyphonEX said:
  1. "Frequently" does not mean "always." They might be separated along a 5th dimensional axis, but you cannot assume this without actual evidence.
  2. Do you think the trunk encompasses the branches or something like that? Otherwise, what part of the tree is going to encompass the RBR if not the branches?
And again, you have not addressed the fact that an infinite object can be embedded in a higher dimensional space that is NOT of substantial size. That much is acknowledged by DontTalkDT for example. You don't NEED a space that extends substantially in the 5th dimension to embed an infinite 4D structure. "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially."
Click to expand...
1. Actually we do assume sometimes but let's not digress. The way we treat is that by default we assume the space is 5d but if there is counter evidence present it.
2. yes that's how it is worded from what i see. It's a magical tree, don't dwell too much on how it would encompass.
3. you do have a point about the volume and if the infinte statement was in reference to spacetimes or universes I would agree with you but from the way it is worded the stretched out seems to imply it is occupying volume in the RBR and as such it would apply to the infinite statement. I could be wrong as I'm not an expert
Borutonarutodebunked said:
The tree itself is 3d, the tree branches, the realms, and the space in between them are also all 3d all contain in the larger 3d universe. The branches are not infinite. Your claim of me being obtuse unfounded and lacks evidence. The thread can be rejected, doesn't invalided the arguments presented for it.
Click to expand...
alright
 
Borutonarutodebunked said:
If they exist in the same physical space they are in the same universe, just like multiple object exist in the same physical universe. Different plane of existence refers to their physical position in the same physical space/universe.
Click to expand...
If you take it by its own then sure, but considering the fact that the RBR is a larger space that encompasses them and is stated to exist outside of them, then no. It'd just refer to that.

And no, that's bs and you know it, different planes of existence can't refer to that because it's DIFFERENT PLANES OF EXISTENCE, major emphasis on that word.
Borutonarutodebunked said:
Also, the sun and moon, is considered to be separated/different from Midgard. Which indicates that midgard's size is doesn't include the sky, also on the god of war ragnarok edition, the full map is presented and the realms are never depicted has universes, the tree, physically holds the tree, just a like how a large 3d object would, the tree doesn't embed anything. They seem to be more like ''parallel realities'' of land mass sizes.
Click to expand...
Because that's in context to the moon and sun in Vanhime, you know, the ones the wolves chase?

We also straight up see murals where all the realms have stars(you don't need a mural, look at the ******* sky) and spiral symbols that resembles galaxies, they are called their own worlds, realities, planes of existences and Midgard is itself supposed to mirror our own universe.
Borutonarutodebunked said:
The tree has a center. A center indicates that an item has a distinct midway or spot from which measurements may be made in all directions. If an item has a center, you can determine a limited distance from it to its edges or bounds, debunking the notion of it being infinite.
Click to expand...
It's considered the midpoint because Midgard is what is considered as the travel hub for all beings, it's not literally the middle. Even then that's not really a contradiction.
Borutonarutodebunked said:
Click to expand...
Funny how these two points contradicted each other.

As is stated, Gjallarhorn is the ONLY exception when it comes to Realm traveling with a portal. Of course it would mean that you can't travel by ******* walking.

And i thinking your ignoring something pretty big there, maybe it's the fact that the thing between them IS THE ******* VOID.
Borutonarutodebunked said:
We know the byfrost light of Alfheim is whats between the 9 realms according to freya. We also know that this same light causes time dilation, the example being with atreus removing kratos from that light, and the former, thinking he was gone for a short time, when this wasn't the case for atreus. According to Freya, the 9 realms exist in the same physical space , reflection of each other, which means they are all under the same universe, same space, under the same single flow of time being dilated by the byfrost light when one decides to realm travel. Time dilation exist even in real life with planets of our solar system, that doesn't make those planets different universes just because of that.
Click to expand...
That only happens when you are inside the Light's otherworld.(should I mention that this also ignored the other reasons for why we consider it as such.)


Honestly it's clear all the arguments here don't really make sense when you combine them together.
 
Pepsimanslover_69 said:
Honestly it's clear all the arguments here don't really make sense when you combine them together.
Click to expand...
''If you take it by its own then sure, but considering the fact that the RBR is a larger space that encompasses them and is stated to exist outside of them, then no. It'd just refer to that. And no, that's bs and you know it, different planes of existence can't refer to that because it's DIFFERENT PLANES OF EXISTENCE, major emphasis on that word.''

The rbr refers to the space between the realms, its just a larger 3d space encompassing the smaller 3d objects. And Yes different planes of existence refers to their physical position in space, existence means having objective reality. So the realms are different places that exist in the same reality/universe. Anything else is an assumption or just not understanding the sentences. If 1) They share the same physical space, reflections of each other, they must exist in the same universe. 2) If they are in the same universe, then the different planes of existence refers to their physical position in reality. This is the logical conclusion that makes the most sense using both statements in conjunction.

''Because that's in context to the moon and sun in Vanhime, you know, the ones the wolves chase?
We also straight up see murals where all the realms have stars(you don't need a mural, look at the ******* sky) and spiral symbols that resembles galaxies, they are called their own worlds, realities, planes of existences and Midgard is itself supposed to mirror our own universe.''

That was never stated to be the moon and sun in or of vanhime. We see the 2 wolfs, moon on the left, Midgard in the middle and the sun on the right,if they were celestial bodies of vanheim it should be included here, but it isn't, it would be an assumption to assume its the sun of vanheim. Even if it were, there is no reasons to make the separation between them if they are part of the realm in question, that would still mean, those celestial bodies are still not considered to be vanheim but something different from it, What you might be referring to, is a math sopho twitter statement, he never said the realms have stars, its just the realm between realms have stars. That presupposed that the realms can't just be in the same physical space and those so call stars are the stars of the same universe they all physically share. We also know from math sophos, that the persons that worship those gods are in a specific section of earth.

''It's considered the midpoint because Midgard is what is considered as the travel hub for all beings, it's not literally the middle. Even then that's not really a contradiction''

That is not what the evidence says, It states Midgard is physically placed in the midpoint of the world tree, it being the hub for all beings doesn't change the fact its placed in the middle of the tree, which literally means the tree is finite. And yes that is contradiction I explained that above. That is also ignoring the whole fact that the branches are too heavy for the tree and they falls off, debunking the notion its truly infinite in size.

''Funny how these two points contradicted each other.
As is stated, Gjallarhorn is the ONLY exception when it comes to Realm traveling with a portal. Of course it would mean that you can't travel by ******* walking.
And i thinking your ignoring something pretty big there, maybe it's the fact that the thing between them IS THE ******* VOID.''

Gjallarhorn was used to prove the realms are space-times, which it isn't. The void, or the byfrost light of Alfhein could be there and it doesn't change the fact that physical travel is possible, it would just be hard to do so, its like me wanting to travel by walking from country A to country B, and there is lava in between these 2 countries, it doesn't mean they are different space-times, it would just be very dangerous to do so if I decided to do that, so I could use a travel method that suits the situation better. If they were separate universes, it should bridge the space-time between those realms, not just a the physical space.

''That only happens when you are inside the Light's otherworld.(should I mention that this also ignored the other reasons for why we consider it as such.)''

No, the byfrost light of Alfheim is in-between the realms as stated by freya, they are not different. When you travel from realm a to realm b, you also traverse that light, that explains why time in realm a and realm b can be different, this by itself proves nothing but that they have different time dilation, not different flow of time.

Its quite clear, the argument combined , debunks the notion of anything realm low 1c rating.
 
 
Catzlaflame said:
I will comment here later, as I’m still working on reading everything. For now, I just want to point out dead scans that play a role in this thread:
Click to expand...
The scan links you quoted all work. Delete the parts of the link after "png/" and reload the link.
 
Catzlaflame said:
I will comment here later, as I’m still working on reading everything. For now, I just want to point out dead scans that play a role in this thread:
Click to expand...
I'm away from my PC atm so doing what Code says should help.

They're available on the cosmology blog as well if that fails.
 
Uhhh cab yall leave 3d realms for another thread? That goes beyond the scope of what the op argues.
 
The "spatially 3-D" argument is absurd and unnecessary. Temporal dimensions have perpendicular axes just like spatial dimensions, in short, what constitutes 4-D is the 4th time dimension axis that perpendicularly cuts 3 spatial axes. The nature of temporal dimensions has already been discussed here. Also, as I quoted above, DT had no problem with RBR having a 5th axis anyway

I already demonstrated that they don't need another dimensional axis to be separated though. (version with Odin's travel seal included)
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but to change this you need to change the standards first.
 
Borutonarutodebunked said:
''If you take it by its own then sure, but considering the fact that the RBR is a larger space that encompasses them and is stated to exist outside of them, then no. It'd just refer to that. And no, that's bs and you know it, different planes of existence can't refer to that because it's DIFFERENT PLANES OF EXISTENCE, major emphasis on that word.''

The rbr refers to the space between the realms, its just a larger 3d space encompassing the smaller 3d objects. And Yes different planes of existence refers to their physical position in space, existence means having objective reality. So the realms are different places that exist in the same reality/universe. Anything else is an assumption or just not understanding the sentences. If 1) They share the same physical space, reflections of each other, they must exist in the same universe. 2) If they are in the same universe, then the different planes of existence refers to their physical position in reality. This is the logical conclusion that makes the most sense using both statements in conjunction.

''Because that's in context to the moon and sun in Vanhime, you know, the ones the wolves chase?
We also straight up see murals where all the realms have stars(you don't need a mural, look at the ******* sky) and spiral symbols that resembles galaxies, they are called their own worlds, realities, planes of existences and Midgard is itself supposed to mirror our own universe.''

That was never stated to be the moon and sun in or of vanhime. We see the 2 wolfs, moon on the left, Midgard in the middle and the sun on the right,if they were celestial bodies of vanheim it should be included here, but it isn't, it would be an assumption to assume its the sun of vanheim. Even if it were, there is no reasons to make the separation between them if they are part of the realm in question, that would still mean, those celestial bodies are still not considered to be vanheim but something different from it, What you might be referring to, is a math sopho twitter statement, he never said the realms have stars, its just the realm between realms have stars. That presupposed that the realms can't just be in the same physical space and those so call stars are the stars of the same universe they all physically share. We also know from math sophos, that the persons that worship those gods are in a specific section of earth.

''It's considered the midpoint because Midgard is what is considered as the travel hub for all beings, it's not literally the middle. Even then that's not really a contradiction''

That is not what the evidence says, It states Midgard is physically placed in the midpoint of the world tree, it being the hub for all beings doesn't change the fact its placed in the middle of the tree, which literally means the tree is finite. And yes that is contradiction I explained that above. That is also ignoring the whole fact that the branches are too heavy for the tree and they falls off, debunking the notion its truly infinite in size.

''Funny how these two points contradicted each other.
As is stated, Gjallarhorn is the ONLY exception when it comes to Realm traveling with a portal. Of course it would mean that you can't travel by ******* walking.
And i thinking your ignoring something pretty big there, maybe it's the fact that the thing between them IS THE ******* VOID.''

Gjallarhorn was used to prove the realms are space-times, which it isn't. The void, or the byfrost light of Alfhein could be there and it doesn't change the fact that physical travel is possible, it would just be hard to do so, its like me wanting to travel by walking from country A to country B, and there is lava in between these 2 countries, it doesn't mean they are different space-times, it would just be very dangerous to do so if I decided to do that, so I could use a travel method that suits the situation better. If they were separate universes, it should bridge the space-time between those realms, not just a the physical space.

''That only happens when you are inside the Light's otherworld.(should I mention that this also ignored the other reasons for why we consider it as such.)''

No, the byfrost light of Alfheim is in-between the realms as stated by freya, they are not different. When you travel from realm a to realm b, you also traverse that light, that explains why time in realm a and realm b can be different, this by itself proves nothing but that they have different time dilation, not different flow of time.

Its quite clear, the argument combined , debunks the notion of anything realm low 1c rating.
Click to expand...
Btw everything aside, no one is discussing Low 1-C realms anyway...

Also, most of your arguments, especially these "midpoint" stuff, have no little to do with the original upgrade.
 
TyphonEX said:
No it doesn't? Even this thread (the thread following the RBR thread) is basically just agreement, side discussion, and refuting the argument that the cookbook statement is "flowery language." I can't find anything about the extent of the RBR along the 5th dimension. You have said both here and in the Yggdrasil thread that "As such, we know that the World Tree spans an infinite amount of this 5-dimensional space," but this doesn't actually say anything at all about the Yggdrasil's extent in the 5th dimension. It can occupy an infinite, 4D portion of the 5-dimensional space, but as long as it doesn't have any significant extent in the 5th dimension as well, it does not scale to Low 1-C. That is a point that DontTalkDT made clear, and it was promptly forgotten after DontTalkDT stopped getting involved in GOW's Low 1-C upgrade threads. In his own words, "Like, the diameter of a timeline is also infinite in 5D space, but its 5D volume is 0. Basically, you can stretch 3 or 4D corridors infinitely far through 5D space, so that can indeed still be Tier 2. It's a bit like branching timelines, essentially." The Yggdrasil can literally extend infinitely within 5D space without being Low 1-C. The problem is that it has to extend to a substantial extent in ALL of its dimensions to be Low 1-C. But don't forget the fact that I've already demonstrated that a 5th dimension is completely unnecessary here since the Nine Realms, while separated, are still spatially finite, and thus do not need to be either parallel or embedded in a higher dimensional space.

That is due to Odin sealing off travel between realms. All this speculation about a 5th dimensional axis is entirely unnecessary headcanon, and also because Norse GOW characters have never showcased infinite or even MFTL travel speed or the like.

There are so many problems with what you just said. First of all, that is a complete non-sequitur. Your conclusion has almost nothing to do with your premise at all, and there is no logical connection between them. How does "they cannot share the basic 3 dimensions of space" follow from "The realms are reflections of each other, alternate planes of existence." That is illogical. Second of all, the developers said that they exist in the same physical space on top of each other. How is that possible if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? Third of all, how can they be parallel if they do not share the basic 3 dimensions of space? At that point, they'd be skew, and that's an entirely different discussion.

Again, this is a non sequitur. Your conclusion does not follow from your claim.

@Ultima_Reality Since people aren't too keen on trying to get @DontTalkDT in here, your input would likely be greatly valued.
Click to expand...
I just saw this.


Frankly, this is where we differ.

There is a big difference between the 5th axis, that is, completely covering a 5-dimensional space and extending infinitely, and these branches extending infinitely in a 5-dimensional space.

What you said would be true if the tree were just a structure that extended infinitely in a 5-D space, but the branches completely cover the 5-D space and extend infinitely throughout the area it covers.
 
Fixxed said:
I think we already discussed this (more than 3 times). Soo hard disagree with this

Yeah, you cannot have two perpendicular line if you not have a flat plane. Two parallel line must exist in a plane because if there are no flat plane that can displaced them you cannot have two parallel line

As per DT say you cannot displace a universe or 3D space inside a 3D space, it must be a higher order space
Click to expand...
There is no proof that any of the nine realms are infinite. Thus, we cannot consider them to be "universes" strictly by the wiki's standards, and these statements do not apply. They are "universes" in the sense that they contain their own cosmos, but they are not "universes" by our wiki's standards.
Georredanea15 said:
I'm sorry, but to change this you need to change the standards first.
Click to expand...
The standards never say that separate 4D structures must be or are assumed to be separate along a 5th dimensional axis by default. They only say that 4D structures past low 2-C are "frequently" separated along a 5th dimensional axis. We cannot assume that to be the case with the Nine Realms without actual proof.
Georredanea15 said:
but the branches completely cover the 5-D space and extend infinitely throughout the area it covers.
Click to expand...
That is only relevant if said 5D space (the Realm Between Realms) extends infinitely in the 5th dimension. I agree that the RBR is completely encompassed by the Yggdrasil, but the issue is that you have not proven that the RBR itself extends along the 5th dimension to any substantial extent whatsoever. None of the previous threads have either. But it is good that you can acknowledge the main point of contention between us.
 
TyphonEX said:
There is no proof that any of the nine realms are infinite. Thus, we cannot consider them to be "universes" strictly by the wiki's standards, and these statements do not apply. They are "universes" in the sense that they contain their own cosmos, but they are not "universes" by our wiki's standards.
Click to expand...
Infinite or finite, not matter. And what standard say they not universe? I think you make your own standard because even before yggdrasil get low 1C rating the 9 realms are already a universes
 
Fixxed said:
Infinite or finite, not matter. And what standard say they not universe? I think you make your own standard because even before yggdrasil get low 1C rating the 9 realms are already a universes
Click to expand...
In the same link you sent, DontTalkDT explains that "we default to the assumption that a universe is the totality of 3 dimensional space.
By our standards, something that only occupies part of 3D space is no full universe." There is no proof that any of the Nine Realms are the totality of 3 dimensional space nor is there any proof that they are infinite, and thus there is no proof that they are full universes.
 
TyphonEX said:
The standards never say that separate 4D structures must be or are assumed to be separate along a 5th dimensional axis by default. They only say that 4D structures past low 2-C are "frequently" separated along a 5th dimensional axis. We cannot assume that to be the case with the Nine Realms without actual proof.
Click to expand...
I think someone deceived you. What it is talking about here is said for the spaces that separate multiple Low 2-C structures, and hold it inside.
So the fact that the structures is Low 2-C and RBR separates a multiverse like this gives it this.


All you need for 5th axis is that different and separated space-time continuums.

Other than that, it's an assumption, while keeping the 9 realms in the same physical space you "necessarily" need the 5th axis to keep them separate from each other.

Executor already explained this above.
 
Georredannea15 said:
I think someone deceived you. What it is talking about here is said for the spaces that separate multiple Low 2-C structures, and hold it inside.
So the fact that the structures is Low 2-C and RBR separates a multiverse like this gives it this.


All you need is that different and separated space-time continuums.
Click to expand...
Please cite the exact place in our standards where it is declared that spaces that separate multiple Low 2-C structures and hold them inside MUST be/are assumed to be 5D by default.

And again, you still haven't proven that the RBR extends infinitely along the 5th dimensional axis
 
TyphonEX said:
In the same link you sent, DontTalkDT explains that "we default to the assumption that a universe is the totality of 3 dimensional space.
By our standards, something that only occupies part of 3D space is no full universe." There is no proof that any of the Nine Realms are the totality of 3 dimensional space nor is there any proof that they are infinite, and thus there is no proof that they are full universes.
Click to expand...
However, our standards say that having a universal sized space and its own time in that space gives Low 2-C by default.
 
TyphonEX said:
Please cite the exact place in our standards where it is declared that spaces that separate multiple Low 2-C structures and hold them inside MUST be/are assumed to be 5D by default.
Click to expand...
Then let me tell you directly what DT said about RBR ;
It would be 5D. Whether it would be 5D in a Tiering System applicable (i.e. Low 1-C) way would be another point of debate. Is it important to some character if it is?
Click to expand...
And also quote from page ;
The most typical example is the presence of a higher dimensional space serving as a separator. In other words, two separate universes coexist in a four dimensional or even higher dimensional space, occupying different position along some additional dimensional axis. Therefore, in order to travel between such universes, the movement must be through the higher dimensional space between them.
Click to expand...
TyphonEX said:
And again, you still haven't proven that the RBR extends infinitely along the 5th dimensional axis
Click to expand...
What scales to Low 1-C is Yggdrasil. It is sufficient for Low 1-C that the branches of Yggdrasil completely cover the 5-dimensional space and extend infinitely throughout the area it covers. In fact, what matters is not necessarily that it is infinite, but only that that dimension/axis has a "universal" or "significant" sized

Also, let me quote you a little bit about when things described as "world" and "realm" are considered Low 2-C universes ;
  • If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
Click to expand...
 
Robo432343 said:
yes but OP wants a scan that states/shows that it extends infinitely
Click to expand...
This is in the cookbook scans and I don't have it. Planck must have these. I thought these were already written in the profile.

In fact, not only that, there was another statement that the branches extends infinitely. And this was somewhere else
 
TyphonEX said:
In the same link you sent, DontTalkDT explains that "we default to the assumption that a universe is the totality of 3 dimensional space.
By our standards, something that only occupies part of 3D space is no full universe." There is no proof that any of the Nine Realms are the totality of 3 dimensional space nor is there any proof that they are infinite, and thus there is no proof that they are full universes.
Click to expand...
Bruh... he doesnt mean a universe must be stated strictly be totality of 3D space for being a trully universe, he mean a universe already the totality of 3D space by default. So if some verse have a structure that they consider it as universe, then that universe are totality of 3D space by default. Dont twist what he say

And the 9 realms already a 9 different space-time continuum, it basically mean 9 different universes in our standard

And there are no verse that literally write like "our universe are totality of 3 dimensional space", so we will downgrade almost every multiversal verse??
 
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