Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

[Antvasima]

Ok, so I guess the final proposal is this:

1. Yggdrasil scales to baseline 1-A due to encompassing all of the Earth-616 reality
2. Thor, Odin, Atlas, and Hercules all scale to Yggdrasil through their own feats. Everyone who currently scales to or above these characters would also be upgrade to 1-A

My sandbox, including both a list of every character to be upgraded and the new justifications for the characters affected, looks like this

That mostly seems reasonable to me, but I still think that the physical manifestation of the Yggdrasil tree has been treated as a massive glass cannon depending on the story, so we need to be very careful when scaling from it.

 

[ObberGobb]

I am pretty sure that cosmic cubes (Beyonder children?) have been explicitly stated to be considerably less powerful than Celestials, even though the full-grown Beyonders have clearly proven to be superior to them in terms of raw power.

Where does that leave those characters then? Should I remove Cosmic Cube-tier characters from the scaling sandbox?

 

[Eseseso]

I am pretty sure that cosmic cubes (Beyonder children?) have been explicitly stated to be considerably less powerful than Celestials, even though the full-grown Beyonders have clearly proven to be superior to them in terms of raw power.

Both the Cubes and Celestials have feats of overpowering the other on multiple occasions

 

[Antvasima]

Both the Cubes and Celestials have feats of overpowering the other on multiple occasions

Okay. I was thinking of back when Kubik kept repeatedly stating that the Celestials are stronger than Cosmic Cubes.

Which occasions of Cosmic Cubes overpowering Celestials are you referring to, and are they clearly canon?

 

[Antvasima]

Where does that leave those characters then? Should I remove Cosmic Cube-tier characters from the scaling sandbox?

Can you summarise how that would affect the scaling please?

 

[Eseseso]

Okay. I was thinking of back when Kubik kept repeatedly stating that the Celestials are stronger than Cosmic Cubes.

Which occasions of Cosmic Cubes overpowering Celestials are you referring to, and are they clearly canon?

Another Cosmic Cube was used by Badoon to overpower dozens of Celestials and keep them as slaves.

There's also when a Cosmic Cube one-shot a Doctor Doom who had Galactus's powers, and the Cubes themselves also could do this going by the profile:

Five Cosmic Containment Units in Magus' possession were able to defeat Eternity and render him catatonic. An unstable Cosmic Cube was threatening to collapse all realities in the multiverse into each other, spreading a reality-cancer that would eventually reduce all universes to "un-space"

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we can probably scale the cubes from the universal incarnations of Eternity and the Celestials then, but not from the multiversal incarnations.

From which book is the text story excerpts, and is it certain to be canon to the main continuity?

 

[Eseseso]

Well, we can probably scale the cubes from the universal incarnations of Eternity and the Celestials then, but not from the multiversal incarnations.

Of course, though "all realities" would technically be just the same level of 1-A as one universe since it's not affecting the multiversal structure, just the universe within it.

From which book is the text story excerpts, and is it certain to be canon to the main continuity?

X-Men: Chaos Engine Trilogy, and it is canon to Earth-616 per the Marvel wiki.

 

[ObberGobb]

Can you summarise how that would affect the scaling please?

Basically I was wondering if they should just stay High 1-B since they didn't seem to have scaling linking them to Skyfathers, but with those feats Eseseso listed I guess that doesn't need to happen

 

[Eseseso]

Basically I was wondering if they should just stay High 1-B since they didn't seem to have scaling linking them to Skyfathers, but with those feats Eseseso listed I guess that doesn't need to happen

I mean right now they currently range from High 1-B to 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course, though "all realities" would technically be just the same level of 1-A as one universe since it's not affecting the multiversal structure, just the universe within it.

X-Men: Chaos Engine Trilogy, and it is canon to Earth-616 per the Marvel wiki.

Okay. I suppose that seems fine then.

 

[ObberGobb]

So do we need a few more staff votes?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Which staff members think what here in summary?

 

[Excellence616]

So do we need a few more staff votes?

Yeah.

1. Yggdrasil scaling to Earth 616 alone
2. Atlas and Hercules scaling to Axis which is Greek version of Yggdrasil
3. Cosmic cubes, Molecule Man and Beyonder scaling also.

I do not know. Which staff members think what here in summary?

Could you tag staffs?

 

[Antvasima]

Am I the only staff member who have responded here, or have others also evaluated this thread?

If I am going to summon more staff members, we need an explanation post for all that they currently need to evaluate first.

 

[ObberGobb]

1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
2. The characters that scale are:
   1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
   2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
   3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
   4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.

 

[Eseseso]

1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.

I favor it scaling to all realities but if the former is accepted it's not a big deal.

1. The characters that scale are:
   1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
   2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
   3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
   4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
2. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.

I don't recall the OG Beyonder having any feats higher than 1-A (excluding a statement about being "beyond dimensions" that Ultima said was retconned), plus a complete Cube being stomped him as did a serious Celestial, so him remaining High 1-B is fine.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I favor it scaling to all realities but if the former is accepted it's not a big deal.

I don't recall the OG Beyonder having any feats higher than 1-A (excluding a statement about being "beyond dimensions" that Ultima said was retconned), plus a complete Cube being stomped him as did a serious Celestial, so him remaining High 1-B is fine.

There IS the notorious feat of Spider-Man with OG Beyonder's powers being stated to have remade all of Creation without any effort whatsoever.

 

[Antvasima]

1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
2. The characters that scale are:
   1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
   2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
   3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
   4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.

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Your input and evaluations would be very appreciated here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
2. The characters that scale are:
   1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
   2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
   3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
   4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.

Seems reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: I also think that this seems to make sense, as long as we take into account that physically affecting the Yggdrasil tree itself can easily be to affect a glass cannon. Also, we need to take Thor's and Hercules' inconsistencies into account for their statistics.