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Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

ObberGobb said:
Ok, so I guess the final proposal is this:
  1. Yggdrasil scales to baseline 1-A due to encompassing all of the Earth-616 reality
  2. Thor, Odin, Atlas, and Hercules all scale to Yggdrasil through their own feats. Everyone who currently scales to or above these characters would also be upgrade to 1-A
My sandbox, including both a list of every character to be upgraded and the new justifications for the characters affected, looks like this
Click to expand...
That mostly seems reasonable to me, but I still think that the physical manifestation of the Yggdrasil tree has been treated as a massive glass cannon depending on the story, so we need to be very careful when scaling from it. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I am pretty sure that cosmic cubes (Beyonder children?) have been explicitly stated to be considerably less powerful than Celestials, even though the full-grown Beyonders have clearly proven to be superior to them in terms of raw power. 🙏
Click to expand...
Where does that leave those characters then? Should I remove Cosmic Cube-tier characters from the scaling sandbox?
 
Antvasima said:
I am pretty sure that cosmic cubes (Beyonder children?) have been explicitly stated to be considerably less powerful than Celestials, even though the full-grown Beyonders have clearly proven to be superior to them in terms of raw power. 🙏
Click to expand...
Both the Cubes and Celestials have feats of overpowering the other on multiple occasions
 
Eseseso said:
Both the Cubes and Celestials have feats of overpowering the other on multiple occasions
Click to expand...
Okay. I was thinking of back when Kubik kept repeatedly stating that the Celestials are stronger than Cosmic Cubes.

Which occasions of Cosmic Cubes overpowering Celestials are you referring to, and are they clearly canon? 🙏
 
ObberGobb said:
Where does that leave those characters then? Should I remove Cosmic Cube-tier characters from the scaling sandbox?
Click to expand...
Can you summarise how that would affect the scaling please? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. I was thinking of back when Kubik kept repeatedly stating that the Celestials are stronger than Cosmic Cubes.

Which occasions of Cosmic Cubes overpowering Celestials are you referring to, and are they clearly canon? 🙏
Click to expand...
Another Cosmic Cube was used by Badoon to overpower dozens of Celestials and keep them as slaves.

There's also when a Cosmic Cube one-shot a Doctor Doom who had Galactus's powers, and the Cubes themselves also could do this going by the profile:

Five Cosmic Containment Units in Magus' possession were able to defeat Eternity and render him catatonic. An unstable Cosmic Cube was threatening to collapse all realities in the multiverse into each other, spreading a reality-cancer that would eventually reduce all universes to "un-space"
 
Well, we can probably scale the cubes from the universal incarnations of Eternity and the Celestials then, but not from the multiversal incarnations. 🙏

From which book is the text story excerpts, and is it certain to be canon to the main continuity?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, we can probably scale the cubes from the universal incarnations of Eternity and the Celestials then, but not from the multiversal incarnations. 🙏
Click to expand...
Of course, though "all realities" would technically be just the same level of 1-A as one universe since it's not affecting the multiversal structure, just the universe within it.
Antvasima said:
From which book is the text story excerpts, and is it certain to be canon to the main continuity?
Click to expand...
X-Men: Chaos Engine Trilogy, and it is canon to Earth-616 per the Marvel wiki.
 
Eseseso said:
Of course, though "all realities" would technically be just the same level of 1-A as one universe since it's not affecting the multiversal structure, just the universe within it.

X-Men: Chaos Engine Trilogy, and it is canon to Earth-616 per the Marvel wiki.
Click to expand...
Okay. I suppose that seems fine then. 🙏
 
I do not know. Which staff members think what here in summary? 🙏
 
Am I the only staff member who have responded here, or have others also evaluated this thread?

If I am going to summon more staff members, we need an explanation post for all that they currently need to evaluate first. 🙏
 
  1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
  2. The characters that scale are:
    1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
    2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
    3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
    4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
  3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.
 
ObberGobb said:
  1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
Click to expand...
I favor it scaling to all realities but if the former is accepted it's not a big deal.
ObberGobb said:
  1. The characters that scale are:
    1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
    2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
    3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
    4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
  2. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.
Click to expand...
I don't recall the OG Beyonder having any feats higher than 1-A (excluding a statement about being "beyond dimensions" that Ultima said was retconned), plus a complete Cube being stomped him as did a serious Celestial, so him remaining High 1-B is fine.
 
Eseseso said:
I favor it scaling to all realities but if the former is accepted it's not a big deal.

I don't recall the OG Beyonder having any feats higher than 1-A (excluding a statement about being "beyond dimensions" that Ultima said was retconned), plus a complete Cube being stomped him as did a serious Celestial, so him remaining High 1-B is fine.
Click to expand...
There IS the notorious feat of Spider-Man with OG Beyonder's powers being stated to have remade all of Creation without any effort whatsoever.
 
ObberGobb said:
  1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
  2. The characters that scale are:
    1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
    2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
    3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
    4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
  3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.
Click to expand...
@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Deagonx @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack

Your input and evaluations would be very appreciated here. 🙏
 
ObberGobb said:
  1. Yggdrasil scales to all of Earth-616, basically for the reasons we already have. It is stated to be "everything" and "all that is," and exists across every plane of reality. This makes it 1-A. Alternatively it could scale to all realities, since its stated at least twice to be connected to all realities and timelines in the multiverse, but I'm not pushing hard for that.
  2. The characters that scale are:
    1. Thor. He pushed the Worldengine, explicitly fighting against the full power of both the engine and Yggdrasil itself; shattered the root of Yggdrasil; defeated MYTHOS, who had the full power of Yggdrasil; and shook all of Yggdrasil every time he cried as a baby
    2. Odin. He negated all of Surtur's flames, which were burning Yggdrasil. Also, with the Odinsword, Thor split Yggdrasil in two. Furthermore, Odin has been stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, so would upscale all of Thor's feats.
    3. Atlas. He is the Axis Mundi, which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil. So his feat of "lifting the heavens" is literally just maintaining the existence of the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil.
    4. Hercules. He helped Atlas with his burden, so would scale to the same feat. In another page from Incredible Hercules #121, we see him holding it by himself, but that page keeps getting removed from my imgur.
  3. Every character currently scaling to or above Skyfathers would then scale to 1-A from these feats. However, it seems unclear whether incomplete Cosmic Cubes like the Beyonder will scale or stay at High 1-B.
Click to expand...
Seems reasonable.
 
Thank you for helping out. 🙏❤️
 
Btw: I also think that this seems to make sense, as long as we take into account that physically affecting the Yggdrasil tree itself can easily be to affect a glass cannon. Also, we need to take Thor's and Hercules' inconsistencies into account for their statistics. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Btw: I also think that this seems to make sense, as long as we take into account that physically affecting the Yggdrasil tree itself can easily be to affect a glass cannon. Also, we need to take Thor's and Hercules' inconsistencies into account for their statistics. 🙏
Click to expand...
I can give both characters a note on their profile about the 1-A rating. No one should scale to these ratings, and I think it should be solely reserved for "god" characters. Under "God Physiology" we seem to already accept gods as higher-dimensional beings that descend into the mortal world, so I think as long as we make it clear this shouldn't be a problem for scaling. We also have direct statements about how Thor never uses his full power against mortals anyway.
 
ObberGobb said:
I can give both characters a note on their profile about the 1-A rating. No one should scale to these ratings, and I think it should be solely reserved for "god" characters. Under "God Physiology" we seem to already accept gods as higher-dimensional beings that descend into the mortal world, so I think as long as we make it clear this shouldn't be a problem for scaling. We also have direct statements about how Thor never uses his full power against mortals anyway.
Click to expand...
Hulk should scale too to this level since in Immortal Hulk Thor states that Hulk is something very close to a god, then in his last fight with Thor he was able to fight and damage a Thor with no restriction, completely full power and Banner stated he could have fought on par with him by making the Hulk angrier
 
Entity said:
Hulk should scale too to this level since in Immortal Hulk Thor states that Hulk is something very close to a god, then in his last fight with Thor he was able to fight and damage a Thor with no restriction, completely full power and Banner stated he could have fought on par with him by making the Hulk angrier
Click to expand...
Hulk already scales
 
ObberGobb said:
I can give both characters a note on their profile about the 1-A rating. No one should scale to these ratings, and I think it should be solely reserved for "god" characters. Under "God Physiology" we seem to already accept gods as higher-dimensional beings that descend into the mortal world, so I think as long as we make it clear this shouldn't be a problem for scaling. We also have direct statements about how Thor never uses his full power against mortals anyway.
Click to expand...
Okay. That seems good then. 🙏
 
Also, while we are revising Thor anyway, is somebody willing to add the feat of the physical blows of two Thor copies having sufficient force to destroy infinite timelines to his profile page? Preferably both in our own wiki and the Marvel Comics Fandom wiki, but it has to be structured and worded properly. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Also, while we are revising Thor anyway, is somebody willing to add the feat of the physical blows of two Thor copies having sufficient force to destroy infinite timelines to his profile page? Preferably both in our own wiki and the Marvel Comics Fandom wiki, but it has to be structured and worded properly. 🙏
Click to expand...
We regard that feat as 2-A iirc
 
Yes, but it seems very relevant to add as a supporting feat, both to our own Thor page and the Marvel Comics Wiki, where Thor is still severely underestimated in terms of listed feats. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, but it seems very relevant to add as a supporting feat, both to our own Thor page and the Marvel Comics Wiki, where Thor is still severely underestimated in terms of listed feats. 🙏
Click to expand...
Where do you think I should put it on his profile? Should I just list it under a separate feats section? Or under the 1-A rating? Preferably I'd like to replace High 3-A with 2-A, but unless we can get more feats on that level I don't think one is enough.
 
ObberGobb said:
Where do you think I should put it on his profile? Should I just list it under a separate feats section? Or under the 1-A rating? Preferably I'd like to replace High 3-A with 2-A, but unless we can get more feats on that level I don't think one is enough.
Click to expand...
Yeah

The feat should be placed after under his 1-A rating for now
 
It can be a supporting feat in lack of better options, yes.

Is somebody here willing to add that feat to Thor's Marvel Comics wiki profile page as well btw? Take note that they have a different type of reference link system that you need to follow. 🙏
 
I do not have the available time to verify right before my vacation. My apologies. 🙏
 
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