Upgrade Yggdrasil/RKT/TWSAIS

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, that much has been established here.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I don't think any of us implied that ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just wanted to make sure in case some jabroni showed up with bright ideas.

 

[Antvasima]

We need a good rationale for why the characters in question shouldn't scale from Yggdrasil in that case, given that you want to scale Rune King Thor from affecting it but not Surtur. Why couldn't Thor have affected just the part relating to the regular 9 worlds/universes as well?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We need a good rationale for why the characters in question shouldn't scale from Yggdrasil in that case, given that you want to scale Rune King Thor from affecting it but not Surtur. Why couldn't Thor have affected just the part relating to the regular 9 worlds/universes as well?

I'm pretty sure Thor would scale cause he killed The Dudes Sitting in Shadows or smth. Who are explictly above and outside the entire Yggdrasil.

The original Ragnarok story was very vague and admittedly didn't have these big implications on Yggdrasil which is why RK Thor was never rated as particularly strong. But in these new Loki / Al Ewing stories the scope of Yggdrasil and the power of Those Who Sit Above is a lot more explicit.

 

[Antvasima]

If TWSAIS are supposedly far beyond Yggdrasil, how come they could feed from the Ragnarok/reincarnation cycle of the Asgardians alone? It doesn't make sense to me.

How did Al Ewing beef up both of their scales by the way?

 

[PsychoWarper]

Everything in the OP looks in order to me so I agree with the changes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If TWSAIS are supposedly far beyond Yggdrasil, how come they could feed from the Ragnarok/reincarnation cycle of the Asgardians alone? It doesn't make sense to me.

This is the "Pennywise can't be a powerful Eldritch Horror because he feeds out of the fear of some kids in a small town".

 

[Antvasima]

I think that my last two posts with points that there are severe logical inconsistencies with this interpretation are valid, and that they need proper explanations.

 

[Alonik]

@Antvasima In Loki Agent of Asgard the ragnarok is remembered as something that gave and ends the whole existence, the omniverse itself (multiverse).

So Thor just not cut just a root of Yggdrasil, here in ragnarok's own story shows that it was the true yggdrasil,including Thor had to grow to an unknown size beyond asgard until he reached it.

And the TWSAIS feed on stories more meta-fictionally, so much so that they were able to revive only by the existence of Loki's history.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not see any evidence of that the world tree encompasses the entirety of the multiverse in the above scans, or for that every Ragnarok kills the multiverse, just for that it would naturally die with everything else if the multiverse is destroyed, and that TWSAIS feed on the life forces of mostly quite weak gods such as the Asgardians, which should be completely insignificant if they were truly Low 1-A or higher.

This seems like an extremely flimsy and unreliable basis for such enormous upgrades.

 

[Driger-God]

I do not see any evidence of that the world tree encompasses the entirety of the multiverse in the above scans, or for that every Ragnarok kills the multiverse, just for that it would naturally die with everything else if the multiverse is destroyed, and that TWSAIS feed on the life forces of mostly quite weak gods such as the Asgardians, which should be completely insignificant if they were truly Low 1-A or higher.
This seems like an extremely flimsy and unreliable basis for such enormous upgrades.

You can't see evidence for Yggdrasil being the entire multiverse in these scans, because these scan are about Thor, Loki and TWSAIS, the scans about Yggdrasil as the multiverse already has been showed, these things don't need to be explained at each 5 seconds in every issue, this would be repetitive and tiring.

And even when the authors do this in each issue, you don't consider, like Asgard being said multiple times to be beyond all the scale of time and space, only because you don't want gods to be 2-A or above.

The encounter between Loki and TWSAIS is beyond themultiverse.

This is how comics work, even if you disagree, TWSAIS exists above and beyond the ultiverse. Thor killing TWSAIS is remembered in Loki comics, and even when it's said that TWSAIS exists "Outside realms. Outside all realities".

Even in classic Thor, he understod what existed beyon the structure of the multiverse, within of the great void/nothing

Thor, in the end, reached the level of TWSAIS

"Your shadows no longer cloud my eyes, great old gods"

"Come to us. Join us above. Sit with us and be one god to the gods"

 

[Antvasima]

The only thing that is proven by the above scans is that Loki and TWSAIS were outside of the multiverse at the time. That is far from the same thing as either them or Yggdrasil transcending or encompassing it in its entirety.

We still need reliable evidence for such staggering enormous upgrades, and all of what I have been shown so far remains extremely flimsy and useless.

Perhaps Sera EX would be willing to help? I would prefer if Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning were here to help out as well. Somebody should ask them all in any case.

 

[Kepekley23]

Eternity: "Should they survive, they will find themselves in a place beyond my influence."

So yeah. Nothing filmsy about it. Anyone who thrives on the Outside is more powerful than Eternity.

 

[Antvasima]

Loki, his ghost friend, the Silver Surfer, and a regular human that accompanied the Surfer, all survived on the outside. None of them are anywhere near as powerful as multiversal Eternity. In addition being outside of Eternity's being/influence is not remotely automatically the same as transcending his raw power.

 

[Luck100]

Loki, his ghost friend, the Silver Surfer, and a regular human that accompanied the Surfer, all survived on the outside. None of them are anywhere near as powerful as multiversal Eternity. In addition being outside of Eternity's being/influence is not remotely automatically the same as transcending his raw power.

She was imbued with power cosmic (to survive in the space).

 

[Kepekley23]

> God of Stories Loki

Eh...

And Lifebringer Galactus was dying just by existing on the Outside.

 

[Alonik]

That Loki was amp, and himself who protected verity. Silver Surfer did not survive the Outside, he jumped from Eternity to the shaper.

Also as @Kepekley23 said, only of the ultimates go to the outside they began to be erased, and were saved by the power of Galactus, who also stated that neither he can stay there because it is a placethat requires a higher level than eternity (complementing what she said to him)

About Yggdrasil, there are several scans in the OP, which firmly and consistently shows Yggdrasil as encompassing everything, just as Eternity.

 

[Antvasima]

A few points:

• There are no statements in the scans I was shown above about that existing outside of Eternity requires greater power than Eternity, just contradictions in the storytelling regarding whether regular superbeings can survive there or it requires someone of Galactus' power level.
• As far as I know, Loki is still the god of stories, and his power level is generally not presented as something extraordinary beyond powerful superheroes.
• The Silver Surfer was outside of Eternity, and even looked at him with just the Secret Wars planet inside, if I remember correctly.
• The scans that I was shown above did definitely not prove that Yggdrasil encompasses the entirety of the Marvel multiverse, just that it would die with everything else if the multiverse dies. That is all. If you have better evidence, please show it to me.
• There is still a contradiction to allow Rune King Thor to reach Low 1-A for affecting the Yggdrasil, when Surtur did the same thing, and we can mostly agree that rating him so high wouldn't make sense and cause a scaling nightmare. As such, I think that considering the world tree as a regular multiversal construct of parallel universes is sufficient and makes better sense.

All in all I definitely don't think that we should allow such enormous upgrades based on such flimsy and unreliable evidence.

 

[ReshRech]

Sorry Antvasima, but if you say that the scans showed in the post doesn't prove the Yggdrasil encompasses the Marvel Multiverse it's because you doing ad ridiculum and ad ignorantiam.

Alonik several times show that Yggdrasil  Omniverse. The Eternity itself it's a part of Yggdrasil and even the Living Tribunal that it's the Multiverse too. I can talk about the Otherworld and Starlight Citadel that already have mentions about encompass the Multiverse, or even about the Chaos War Arc, where the Amatsu Mikaboshi to devour the 99% of the Multiverse, he needed to devour the Axis Mundi, the found of creation itself.

 

[Kepekley23]

By the way, the True Yggdrasil seemed to be heavily implied to represent The One Above All in the more recent Jane Foster issues, due to the whole Kabbalistic cosmology of the upper and lower points of a Tree of Life.

 

[ReshRech]

By the way, the True Yggdrasil seemed to be heavily implied to represent The One Above All in the more recent Jane Foster issues, due to the whole Kabbalistic cosmology of the upper and lower points of a Tree of Life.

Not only in the Jane Foster issues that was showed to us. In Might Thor 2011 #3 Norrin sayed that the Seed of Yggdrasil it's the soul of the All-God. And in the Loki's recent comic, was stated that the Gods are facets of Toaa.

The Gods have this link with TOAA since the Classic Thor, but i don't have the scan where Odin "summons" Toaa

 

[Kepekley23]

> There is still a contradiction to allow Rune King Thor to reach Low 1-A for affecting the Yggdrasil, when Surtur did the same thing, and we can mostly agree that rating him so high wouldn't make sense and cause a scaling nightmare. As such, I think that considering the world tree as a regular multiversal construct of parallel universes is sufficient and makes better sense.

Also, there are literally dozens of scans proving the Yggdrasil's true form is far beyond a mere multiversal construct. No offense, but it's not really about what we believe is best, it's what about the scans actually imply is the case.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry Antvasima, but if you say that the scans showed in the post doesn't prove the Yggdrasil encompasses the Marvel Multiverse it's because you doing ad ridiculum and ad ignorantiam.

Alonik several times show that Yggdrasil  Omniverse. The Eternity itself it's a part of Yggdrasil and even the Living Tribunal that it's the Multiverse too. I can talk about the Otherworld and Starlight Citadel that already have mentions about encompass the Multiverse, or even about the Chaos War Arc, where the Amatsu Mikaboshi to devour the 99% of the Multiverse, he needed to devour the Axis Mundi, the found of creation itself.

No, I honestly and genuinely did not find any concrete evidence of Yggdrasil remotely encompassing such a scale, nor do I find anything related to it in any of the scans from the post above.

In addition, all of this seems based on trying to retroactively piece together information from a wide variety of storylines that mostly do not have anything to do with each other.

The only scan I have been shown above that might show some proof of this is the following, but the text is largely too small for me to properly make out on my tablet, so if somebody could upload it to the wiki instead, that would be appreciated:

https://m.imgur.com/a/7RCb8j6

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, Odin is scaled from Surtur almost destroying the Yggdrasil, so this would create an enormously exaggerated scaling nightmare with every single universal cosmic entity upscaled to Low 1-A or higher, which is completely unacceptable. We have a regulation page for Marvel Comics inconsistencies for very good reasons.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, there are literally dozens of scans proving the Yggdrasil's true form is far beyond a mere multiversal construct. No offense, but it's not really about what we believe is best, it's what about the scans actually imply is the case.

Yggdrasil has not been clearly proven as encompassing the entire multiverse as far as I am aware, and it was definitely not treated as such in the storylines wherein Rune King Thor ended Ragnarok or Surtur threatened to destroy it. To scale all universal cosmic entities, skyfathers, demon lords, mystical entities, etcetera, to Low 1-A, would be entirely destructive for our reliability, and based on staggeringly enormous outliers. I am never going to accept such a change. My apologies.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

https://comicpunch.net/reader/mangas/The Mighty Thor 2011/The Mighty Thor (2011) Full/cw049.jpg

@Ant you should be able to zoom in and if you can't then I can link the issue where the scan comes from

 

[Kepekley23]

To scale all universal cosmic entities, skyfathers, demon lords, mystical entities, etcetera, to Low 1-A, would be entirely destructive for our reliability, and based on staggeringly enormous outliers. I am never going to accept such a change. My apologies.

It's a good thing no one is trying to do that, eh?

 

[Antvasima]

@Unknown Warrior

Thank you. And this is a seed for a new World Tree then, if I remember correctly?

@Kepekley23

I do not see how we can avoid this development, if Surtur threatened to destroy it all, and it would be disastrous for the coherence of our profiles.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@Ant Yeah it's suppose to be a seed for another Yggdrasil

 

[Alonik]

@Antvasima In my main topic I made it clear that surtur burned only one root, and the forge of it WOULD be potentiated to reach other realms through the technology of the Gods of the other world, Surtur and no one scale to Low 1-A or 1-A just damage or destroy a root of the Yggdrasil.

The 1-A proposed in this post is just about RKT and TWSAIS, who is the only one in the whole story that scales over the true tree, no one else, I left it well objective, and we up there had already made it clear that it was not scalable.

The only character who destroyed the real was RKT, as I previously proved, he had to go to a plan beyond asgard (It was in asgard that it was the feat of Seth and Surtur) to destroy Yggdrasil.

 

[Antvasima]

@Unknown Warrior

Well, the statements from the scan in question obviously seems far more reliable than everything else that I have been shown here, but I do not think that Yggdrasil has been treated as encompassing anywhere near such a scale in either the "Ragnarok" story or "Everything Burns" (the stories with the Rune King Thor and Surture feats), so our standard rules to avoid scaling everybody to everyone and everything should still apply, to avoid massive outliers.

 

[Kepekley23]

Thor also destroyed the tapestry of the Norns, who were stated in the Infinity Saga to be superior to the Living Tribunal by Infinity.

 

[Antvasima]

@Alonik

Can you show a scan for that it was just one root?

@Kepekley23

I would appreciate a scan for the Norns being superior to the Living Tribunal as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Alonik several times show that Yggdrasil  Omniverse. The Eternity itself it's a part of Yggdrasil and even the Living Tribunal that it's the Multiverse too. "

No offense but the scans linked here don't even begin to suggest that The Living Tribunal and Eternity are part of Yggdrasil. I'm starting to feel a lot of what's said in the OP isn't actually on the scans.

 

[Driger-God]

@Unknown Warrior
Thank you. And this is a seed for a new World Tree then, if I remember correctly?

@Kepekley23

I do not see how we can avoid this development, if Surtur threatened to destroy it all, and it would be disastrous for the coherence of our profiles.

Surtur threatened a manifestation of Yggdrasil. The Nordic Configuration of Nine Realm, even Surtur exist inside Ragnarok controlled by TWSAIS. Surtur never scale to Norns or TWSAIS.

Norns power was given by TWSAIS, and Norns control multiverse stories, even the end(King Thor current stories)

RKT altered the Fate Tapestry without realize, where was showed Thor swallowing Yggdrasil, and destroy the Tapestry that has all time, all fates.

 

[Alonik]

@Antvasima Yes, here's proof that it wasn't the real yggdrasil, just her main root: "Behold-- The main root of yggdrasil, the sacred tree of life! The legendary world ash which is bound by ancient enchantments to the asgardian people!"

The true Yggdrasil is not made from a root or the main root as i showed in the main topic, she connects everything so that only people like Heimdall can see.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also:

"The Tree Connects all life. And the birth of life and the mythologies and religions coincide with science, that all life came from one source, be it single-cell life or the body of a giant (Eternity)"

Interpreting the body of the giant Thor mentions to be Eternity is a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach. It's far more likely that he is referring to Ymir as the scene is about the origin of life.

 

[Antvasima]

"Alonik several times show that Yggdrasil  Omniverse. The Eternity itself it's a part of Yggdrasil and even the Living Tribunal that it's the Multiverse too. "

No offense but the scans linked here don't even begin to suggest that The Living Tribunal and Eternity are part of Yggdrasil. I'm starting to feel a lot of what's said in the OP isn't actually on the scans.

Yes. That was my impression as well when I actually took the time to read through all of the scans presented to me. With the exception of one single page, these claims seem unrelated to what has actually been shown and/or stated within the stories in question.

 

[ReshRech]

"Alonik several times show that Yggdrasil  Omniverse. The Eternity itself it's a part of Yggdrasil and even the Living Tribunal that it's the Multiverse too. "
No offense but the scans linked here don't even begin to suggest that The Living Tribunal and Eternity are part of Yggdrasil. I'm starting to feel a lot of what's said in the OP isn't actually on the scans.

Sorry, but I think that you don't read the scans. Eternity and Infinity are encompass by the Starlight Citadel, the scans cleary show that.

In Deadpool x Gambit #5 the first page is talking about Yggdrasil, and in the part where they talk about the cosmic stuff, they put Living Tribunal. A comic it isn't only made by text, if the Living Tribunal was draw in a scan were are saying the Yggdrasil encompass the Cosmic Stuff, is because Living Tribunal is encompass too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's also interesting that some scans which describe Yggdrasil as containing everything still just primarily state it holds the nine / ten realms, hm.

Also, using the main root scan doesn't prove anything because this storyline acted like destroying the main root would destroy the whole tree which would destroy the nine realms. The storyline NEVER implied that the mai root was just a tiny portion of the "True" Yggdrasil. It just treated Yggdrasil as being the Nine Realms.