Marvel: Big Yggdrasil Downgrade, Skyfather Upgrades, and Thor Revisions

[Antvasima]

Well, scaling a character, whose raw power displays likely peak at High 6-A, to High 1-A, from creating a storm around what was in this story simply presented as a large tree, seems incredibly unreliable, and I just requested that the two of you should analytically evaluate the "feat" in question.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Ant, in seems like a wildly exaggerated interpretation.

 

[Excellence616]

Well, scaling a character, whose raw power displays likely peak at High 6-A, to High 1-A, from creating a storm around what was in this story simply presented as a large tree, seems incredibly unreliable, and I just requested that the two of you should analytically evaluate the "feat" in question.

Storm is a god and can only used her god power when accessing her Godhead

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, scaling a character, whose raw power displays likely peak at High 6-A, to High 1-A, from creating a storm around what was in this story simply presented as a large tree, seems incredibly unreliable, and I just requested that the two of you should analytically evaluate the "feat" in question.

Although it does seem like an outlier. Its within her character in my opinion during that time. At least within her full power. Just a downgrade to me seems fine though in another thread I mention a redo of Yggdrasil. If we go by that then Storm would have to lose the feat.

 

[Antvasima]

Although it does seem like an outlier. Its within her character in my opinion during that time. At least within her full power. Just a downgrade to me seems fine though in another thread I mention a redo of Yggdrasil. If we go by that then Storm would have to lose the feat.

I do not just consider it an outlier. I do not consider it a quantifiable or likely very impressive feat at all.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I do not just consider it an outlier. I do not consider it a quantifiable or likely very impressive feat at all.

I'll recheck the feat then to see if it's qualifiable as an actual legit feat for Storm. It does seem out of reach unless somehow it's a metaphysical storm, but that's pure speculation.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it was just a regular storm as far as I recall.

 

[Eseseso]

Just found this:

In Thor: God-Size Special, Yggdrasil is confirmed to be the axis of stability of the multiverse.

 

[ObberGobb]

Just found this:

In Thor: God-Size Special, Yggdrasil is confirmed to be the axis of stability of the multiverse.

Yeah, this is the story where Enchantress poisons the World Tree. I don't really know how this would affect scaling, because while I do think the the World Tree is multiversal in scope, it is so consistently affected by characters solidly below Universal Abstracts that I feel they should somehow upscale from all realities. I know people have said that that likely doesn't work, but someone else found a bunch of other feats of Celestial Tier characters affecting the whole Multiverse, and they are definitely below Uni Abstracts too. And before we had Galactus scaling to 2-A based on destroying all realities, but Eternity was still above him.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, this is the story where Enchantress poisons the World Tree. I don't really know how this would affect scaling, because while I do think the the World Tree is multiversal in scope, it is so consistently affected by characters solidly below Universal Abstracts that I feel they should somehow upscale from all realities. I know people have said that that likely doesn't work, but someone else found a bunch of other feats of Celestial Tier characters affecting the whole Multiverse, and they are definitely below Uni Abstracts too. And before we had Galactus scaling to 2-A based on destroying all realities, but Eternity was still above him.

Tbf, the Multiverse is probably also gonna be 1-A, it'll just be 2 layers into it compared to the standard Eternity universe being baseline 1-A.

 

[ObberGobb]

Tbf, the Multiverse is probably also gonna be 1-A, it'll just be 2 layers into it compared to the standard Eternity universe being baseline 1-A.

So what do you think should be done here?

If Yggdrasil scales to just Earth-616 it would be baseline 1-A, correct? Would Uni Abstracts then be one layer into 1-A, or would they just upscale baseline?

And what do you think about Yggdrasil scaling to the whole Multiverse? How many layers would that be, and where would that then lave Uni Eternity and Multi Eternity? Because I really strongly think Skyfathers scale to Yggdrasil, but they also are definitely below Uni Eternity.

 

[Hasty12345]

Does anything actually stop uni eternity from upscaling from Skyfathers in this scenario? Not saying I agree but isn’t assuming uni eternity is only as strong as he is big kind of silly?

Or is there an explicit limit put on uni eternity ‘s strength that would prohibit that scaling?

 

[Eseseso]

So what do you think should be done here?

If Yggdrasil scales to just Earth-616 it would be baseline 1-A, correct? Would Uni Abstracts then be one layer into 1-A, or would they just upscale baseline?

Why would Uni Abstracts be 1 layer into 1-A? Uni Eternity is Earth-616

And what do you think about Yggdrasil scaling to the whole Multiverse? How many layers would that be, and where would that then lave Uni Eternity and Multi Eternity? Because I really strongly think Skyfathers scale to Yggdrasil, but they also are definitely below Uni Eternity

I honestly don't know

 

[ObberGobb]

Why would Uni Abstracts be 1 layer into 1-A? Uni Eternity is Earth-616

Well, if Earth-616 on its own is 1-A, and Skyfathers scale to infinite 1-A structures, and then Eternity scales above them simply because he is definitely stronger than Skyfathers, Earth-616 Uni Eternity at least would scale to infinite 1-A structures as well. It doesn't make sense considering Eternity's lore, but I think that unfortunately its very consistent powerscaling wise.

Like if that's too controversial I'm fine settling with 1-A one reality scaling for Yggdrasil, but its still consistent that characters below Eternity can affect multiple realities while still being below the Eternities.

 

[Eseseso]

Well, if Earth-616 on its own is 1-A, and Skyfathers scale to infinite 1-A structures, and then Eternity scales above them simply because he is definitely stronger than Skyfathers, Earth-616 Uni Eternity at least would scale to infinite 1-A structures as well. It doesn't make sense considering Eternity's lore, but I think that unfortunately its very consistent powerscaling wise.

Like if that's too controversial I'm fine settling with 1-A one reality scaling for Yggdrasil, but its still consistent that characters below Eternity can affect multiple realities while still being below the Eternities.

Being infinite 1-A structures worth in power doesn't make you 1 layer into 1-A. It's like how 2-C and 2-A are both 4-D

 

[ObberGobb]

Being infinite 1-A structures worth in power doesn't make you 1 layer into 1-A. It's like how 2-C and 2-A are both 4-D

Ah, ok. I don't really understand "layers" so I'll leave that part of this to more knowledgeable people.

 

[Firestorm808]

Have the remaining issues been addressed?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an explanation post regarding what currently needs to be evaluated here please?

Also, I would still appreciate if @VeryGoofyToddler2 is willing to investigate the Storm problems.

 

[Excellence616]

Have the remaining issues been addressed?

Here

1. Initially I proposed Yggdrasil being 1-A via scaling to all realities, but most people have said that it would be better to just have it scale to all of Earth-616, which would still be 1-A
2. The following characters would scale to 1-A based on these feats:
   1. Thor, through the feats he already has accepted. Furthermore, there are feats of him fighting on an equal footing with Hell Lords and one statement of him being more powerful than the Titans
   2. Odin. He is stated to be more powerful than every Asgardian combined, so should upscale Thor's peak. He also negated Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil, and is more powerful than Hela and Mephisto.
   3. Hela and Mephisto's "omniversal armageddon" which would "make Ragnarok pale in comparison"
   4. Atlas, and by extension Zeus and maybe Hercules. The Axis Mundi is the Greek form of Yggdrasil, and Atlas is linked to it and maintains it by lifting the heavens. Basically I think that "lifting the heavens" in this specific context is analogous to lifting Yggdrasil.
   5. Every character currently accepted as scaling to these characters scales to 1-A, characters who are accepted as more powerful than them, like the Abstracts, scale deeper in 1-A.
   6. Simplify some of Thor's profile, dropping the backscaling of Herald Thor feats applying to Odinforce Thor.
3. This is the sandbox I made

 

[ObberGobb]

Here

I'd also like to add Enchantress' feat of splitting Yggdrasil for consideration

 

[Antvasima]

I'd also like to add Enchantress' feat of splitting Yggdrasil for consideration

That, and Thor affecting it right afterwards, just further illustrates that characters usually shouldn't remotely scale to 1-A or higher from affecting Yggdrasil, as it is just handled as a representative physical focal point for a much higher structure, not as the structure itself.

@VeryGoofyToddler2

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That, and Thor affecting it right afterwards, just further illustrates that characters usually shouldn't remotely scale to 1-A or higher from affecting Yggdrasil, as it is just handled as a representative physical focal point for a much higher structure, not as the structure itself.

@VeryGoofyToddler2

The Strom feat itself is a bit shaky to consider. Though, as of late her powers are near enough where it's acceptable.

As for Enchantress seems a bit weird, but her magic is strong. I don't think it's that consistent though. She does have access to the secret fires and her illusion tricks seem to have no bounds. Seems that she can scale to Yggdrasil.

With that being said. I think the totality of the structure at the end may not be directly affect by then through sheer power and I believe that this would include Thor. We could keep the feats but it doesn't scale them fully.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems ridiculous to scale characters whose other feats are of at best planetary scale to 1-A for affecting a regular looking tree that happens to be a massive glass cannon in terms of importance.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think that it seems ridiculous to scale characters whose other feats are of at best planetary scale to 1-A for affecting a regular looking tree that happens to be a massive glass cannon in terms of importance.

That's how power scaling works. We work through scaling characters from their respected Cosmology and not individual feat. That being said Yggdrasil is glass canon.

 

[Eseseso]

The Strom feat itself is a bit shaky to consider. Though, as of late her powers are near enough where it's acceptable.

Basically this, especially with her having scaling to the Adversary who will be 1-A thanks to this thread as well as another thread that needs staff input.

As for Enchantress seems a bit weird, but her magic is strong. I don't think it's that consistent though. She does have access to the secret fires and her illusion tricks seem to have no bounds. Seems that she can scale to Yggdrasil.

Ehhhh...

With that being said. I think the totality of the structure at the end may not be directly affect by then through sheer power and I believe that this would include Thor. We could keep the feats but it doesn't scale them fully.

Thor is a weird case.

 

[Antvasima]

That's how power scaling works. We work through scaling characters from their respected Cosmology and not individual feat. That being said Yggdrasil is glass canon.

But powerscaling usually doesn't work for Marvel Comics, due to the many hundreds or thousands of writers who all have their own contradicting ideas and who work in a setting where everybody can fight everybody. We even have a rule page that clarifies this issue.

I honestly think that you and others are getting out of hand with the extremely exaggerated Marvel Comics character statistics, considering how ridiculously high the High 1-B and above statistics really are. We should be careful and only use explicit scale feats rather than who can fight who, unless it is very consistent.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically this, especially with her having scaling to the Adversary who will be 1-A thanks to this thread as well as another thread that needs staff input.

The Adversary may or may not work, but the Yggdrasil is an enormous glass cannon.

 

[ObberGobb]

But powerscaling usually doesn't work for Marvel Comics, due to the many hundreds or thousands of writers who all have their own contradicting ideas and who work in a setting where everybody can fight everybody. We even have a rule page that clarifies this issue.

I honestly think that you and others are getting out of hand with the extremely exaggerated Marvel Comics character statistics, considering how ridiculously high the High 1-B and above statistics really are. We should be careful and only use explicit scale feats rather than who can fight who, unless it is very consistent.

I think most of these Yggdrasil ones are fairly explicit though. Like with Enchantress I think it's made fairly explicit her magic is working on a multiversal scale, then with many of the Thor ones it's made clear it's talking about the entirety of Yggdrasil and it's power. With Atlas, he is the one maintaining it's existence.

That being said, I agree that we should be more cautious with Marvel scaling than with other verses. But with this, I think it's fairly consistent for god characters to operate at this level. And Thor only ever operates at this level when fighting actually gods or Hell Lords, which is consistent in-universe where we are told he ALWAYS holds back against non-gods. Iirc we also accept under God Physiology that all gods are at a lower level in mortal planes.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The issue with dismissing 'Storm' 's higher end feats is that her, alongside other 'Omega Level' Mutants, explicitly are defined within the story and within various databooks that there is no defined upper limit to what can theoretically do within the story with their mutant powerset (Heck Franklin gets one of the most blatant [there is no possibly way to define an upper limit to his potential] I've ever seen) . I get a lot of people are going to assume it's NLF, but when we actually consistently see Omega Level mutants vary wildly in statistics, get stated in comics quite a fair bit that their potential inherently cannot be limited, this really isn't contradicted within Marvel's lore and is in-fact very much supported.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, scaling from creating a storm around a relatively small and easily affected extreme glass cannon tree does not seem remotely reasonable in any case, regardless of her other power displays, and her practical power displays have been of a comparatively very small local scale, so even her showings against Dominions and The Adversary seem more like extremely biased "everybody can fight everybody" storytelling than anything else.

Regardless, the Yggdrasil "feat" needs to be removed.

 

[AndrewBennet]

That, and Thor affecting it right afterwards, just further illustrates that characters usually shouldn't remotely scale to 1-A or higher from affecting Yggdrasil, as it is just handled as a representative physical focal point for a much higher structure, not as the structure itself.

@VeryGoofyToddler2

As far as I know. Even Rune king Thor simply severed the connections of threads of fate (nutriments of twsais) causing the yaggdrasill to collapse on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, the Yggdrasil is usually treated as a massive glass cannon nexus focal point. Characters do not need to have ridiculously high scales of infinite power to affect it.

 

[Excellence616]

We can discuss Storm issue later. We should focus on Yggdrasil

 

[Antvasima]

We can discuss Storm issue later. We should focus on Yggdrasil

What do we currently need to evaluate here?

 

[ObberGobb]

What do we currently need to evaluate here?

Two main things:

1. Decision on whether Yggdrasil scales to just Earth-616 or all realities. I personally think it should scale to all, but I am fine with it scaling to just Earth-616. It would be 1-A either way, but having it be just Earth-616 means we don't have to worry about Uni Abstracts at all.
2. We need consensus on who scales to Yggdrasil. In my opinion Thor definitely scales from his already accepted feats, Atlas scales due to being the Axis Mundi which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil (Zeus upscales from Atlas), and Odin who could counteract Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil and was stated to be more powerful than all Asgardians combined so would upscale Thor's feats. The maybes are Hercules, who temporarily took on Atlas' burden so should scale the same way, and Enchantress, who was about to destroy all of reality when she was splitting Yggdrasil.

 

[Excellence616]

Two main things:

1. Decision on whether Yggdrasil scales to just Earth-616 or all realities. I personally think it should scale to all, but I am fine with it scaling to just Earth-616. It would be 1-A either way, but having it be just Earth-616 means we don't have to worry about Uni Abstracts at all.

Scaling to Earth 616 alone would be better to prevent scaling above Abstracts.

1. We need consensus on who scales to Yggdrasil. In my opinion Thor definitely scales from his already accepted feats, Atlas scales due to being the Axis Mundi which is the Greek form of Yggdrasil (Zeus upscales from Atlas), and Odin who could counteract Surtur's flames that were burning Yggdrasil and was stated to be more powerful than all Asgardians combined so would upscale Thor's feats. The maybes are Hercules, who temporarily took on Atlas' burden so should scale the same way, and Enchantress, who was about to destroy all of reality when she was splitting Yggdrasil.

Your sandbox already handled that.

The Beyonder (Incomplete Cosmic Cube and Ascended Cosmic cube key), Complete Cosmic Cubes and Molecule Man should scale since the Cosmic cubes are superior to the Celestial and Celestials are superior to Odin and Zeus.

Hercules and Atlas scaling should work (Removing it as one of High 3-A scans for Heralds).

Enchantress scaling to Yggdrasil should be taken as Outlier, that is of her 1-A feat is inconsistent.

and don't forget that those becoming 1-A would get Immeasurable Lifting Strength.

 

[ObberGobb]

Ok, so I guess the final proposal is this:

1. Yggdrasil scales to baseline 1-A due to encompassing all of the Earth-616 reality
2. Thor, Odin, Atlas, and Hercules all scale to Yggdrasil through their own feats. Everyone who currently scales to or above these characters would also be upgrade to 1-A

My sandbox, including both a list of every character to be upgraded and the new justifications for the characters affected, looks like this

 

[Excellence616]

Ok, so I guess the final proposal is this:

1. Yggdrasil scales to baseline 1-A due to encompassing all of the Earth-616 reality
2. Thor, Odin, Atlas, and Hercules all scale to Yggdrasil through their own feats. Everyone who currently scales to or above these characters would also be upgrade to 1-A

My sandbox, including both a list of every character to be upgraded and the new justifications for the characters affected, looks like this

Yeah. But you still got Beyonder, Molecule Man and Cosmic cubes as maybe

 

[Eseseso]

Ok, so I guess the final proposal is this:

1. Yggdrasil scales to baseline 1-A due to encompassing all of the Earth-616 reality
2. Thor, Odin, Atlas, and Hercules all scale to Yggdrasil through their own feats. Everyone who currently scales to or above these characters would also be upgrade to 1-A

My sandbox, including both a list of every character to be upgraded and the new justifications for the characters affected, looks like this

I still think Yggdrasil scales to all 1-A realities, but rest is good.

 

[Antvasima]

I am pretty sure that cosmic cubes (Beyonder children?) have been explicitly stated to be considerably less powerful than Celestials, even though the full-grown Beyonders have clearly proven to be superior to them in terms of raw power.