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Upgrade Yggdrasil/RKT/TWSAIS
- Thread starter Alonik
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I just don't think sufficient evidence has been provided to suggest that the full tree is Low 1-A in the first place. A lot of the OP is either out of context, misinterpreted, or does not indicate anything definitive by itself. I believe that the more accurate model is to suggest that each Marvel "universe" is composed of a number of realms, dimensions, and subrealities, among which are the 9/10 realms of Norse mythology. In other words, rather than there being one large Yggdrasil with smaller manifestations in each reality, there is simply a different Yggdrasil in each reality, each containing 9/10 Norse realms. I am glad that the tension seems to have died down a bit, though. Earlier I felt as though some people were mad at me, and I want to express that I have no ill will to anybody here. I'm sorry I can't take part in more of the discussion. lol, better than getting fired from work, right?
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And, lastly:
> but in that case this would apply the Asgardian Norns, strictly responsible for weaving fates for the 9 worlds
This point is completely untrue. It was directly stated that the Norns weaved fates for the gods and mortals across "the many dimensions" of the multiverse, not just the 9 realms.
> but in that case this would apply the Asgardian Norns, strictly responsible for weaving fates for the 9 worlds
This point is completely untrue. It was directly stated that the Norns weaved fates for the gods and mortals across "the many dimensions" of the multiverse, not just the 9 realms.
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By the way, in the recent Jane Foster issues, the Yggdrasil was blatantly stated to represent the One-Above-All, in contrast to the Qliphoth/Anti-Tree that represents the One Below All.
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You're talking about the current Valkyrie run right?
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Yep.
Al Ewing even confirms that to be the case in his official interview for that issue, since he states that Jane took Heimdall into a journey through the Tree of Life of the Marvel Multiverse (which, as shown by the Immortal Hulk storyline, encompassed both TOAA and TOBA)
Al Ewing even confirms that to be the case in his official interview for that issue, since he states that Jane took Heimdall into a journey through the Tree of Life of the Marvel Multiverse (which, as shown by the Immortal Hulk storyline, encompassed both TOAA and TOBA)
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@ClassicNESfan
Nobody was "mad" with you, when you said that Yggdrasil was represented like "9 planets" in space, I questioned, I have knowledge about each "age" of Norse Gods.
The Nine Realms in Marvel have always worked as different dimensions, when you write, you use many of "appeal to inconsistency", even where|when it isn't inconsistency, as you say that's.
1. "Gunningagap in Myth Cosmology" = Oblivion
Marvel have many description in Myth Cosmology to what is "Void before creation", in all case, this void is Amatsu Mikaboshi when we talking about Myth, he is describe in many myth in different names like "What Exist Before Creation" and all "Myth" was born of him.
Gunningagap description: "Once, there was nothing... Neither the Earth, nor the sky above, nor sun, nor moon, nor life! There was only endless abyss "
Prime description of Gunningagap is: Nothingness endless
In Thor Comics, the "Void Before Creation" is the same to all Myth, you can see when Demiurge create every god of Void(Gunningagap in Norse)
Offical Databook of Myth of Marvel describe the Void like Amatsu Mikaboshi
Thus, this void is an avatar of Oblivion to Marvel.
2. "Nine Realms"
The description about this realm are variable really, some times are describe as "universe" or planes. But never as planets in space, and I go beyond this.
- Asgard Realm in Journey Into Mystery: "Beyond our segment of time and space, there exist Asgard, the citadel of the Norse Gods, which is connected to Earth by a Rainbow Bridge called Bifrost" - "Beyond our segment of time space there exists Asgard, home of Norse Gods, which can only be reached from Earth by the Rainbow Bridge called Bifrost! "
-Marvel Saga: "It was Odin, Bill, and Ve who build the flittering city of Asgard, the home of Norse Gods, Asgard City is the capital of the land of Asgard, which exist in an dimension other than our ow "
Asgard in Thor Vol 1: Asgard is work as a higher plane of existence(Higher Dimension)
"No longer tethered to the mortal plane by the legendary rainbow bridge, Asgard continue to drift... deeper... ever deeper... into the nether regions of time and space" - Scan show that before fall, exist in higher regions of time and space.
"Yea, even beyond the most distant star, the farthest galaxy, the final universe, to the very edge of timeless infinity... And there, across shuimmering Rainbow Bridge... Beyond the reach of mortal time... there stands Asgard " - Thor about Asgard Realm
"Remembers a battle with god-being like itself, in a land which was somehow beyond both time adn space "
"Far beyond the mortal realm of time and space lies Asgard, home of the Mighty Norse Gods "
"At that precise moment, far across the universe, far beyond the mortal concepts of time and space, where Stands mighty Asgard, the legendary home of the Norse Gods "
Thor Vol 2
Asgard still be beyond the universe, and the description suggest existence of in higher dimensions.
"Beyond time, beyond the boundaries of space, beyond the great dimensional barrier there is more "
"But those who dwell on a higher plane not so limited. They watched transfixed by titanic struggle before them " - Asgardians as being of a higher dimension
"Beyond man's measure of time and space, beyond his ability to reach and comprehend, hies a place of everlasting wonder. Asgard, the realm eternal, where golden spires soar beyond the heavens "
Thor vol 3: Is where have the description of each 9 realms like dimensions, even that since of beginning, Nine Realms were made to be different dimensions.
3. Yggdrasil(616) =/= Yggdrasil(Multiverse)
Exist differents representations of Yggdrasil, I'll talk about. In 616 Yggdrasil have two representation that are used.
There are different representations of Yggdrasil, I'll talk about them. In 616 Yggdrasil have two representation that are used.
1: Nine Realms: The most comum representation, Yggdrasil is represented like in Norse Myth
This representation is linked with Axis Mundi or Cosmic Axis(Or Ouranos)
2: Axis Mundi, or link to other pantheons . Axis Mundi exist in Earth, but it's only a entrance to his form real The Axis is the center of power of world , and control the reality, even cosmic being as the Phoenix(White Phoenix) are affect by their control.
Axis Mundi the Yggdrasil be the 9 realms, as too the realm of every pantheon in earth.
And, even in "universal" cosmology of gods, as already said, their realms are multi-dimensional, with more than 10 dimensions, they are the "Key to multi-dimensional system"
Multiverse Yggdrasil: Here stay the greatest mentions about Yggdrasil:
The idea of Yggdrasil like something that connect every plane of reality
What prove that Yggdrasil is a multiverse structure? 1- Norns existence: Norns make every story about Thor , gods, in multiverse, not only 616, King Thor and variations of Thor were made by her - 1 - 2- 3 - 4 - 5 Even the end of multiverse was made by Norns.
2- Description of Tree(Yggdrasil) connecting every god, and in the same story, in reference to what Balder said, every dimension(Asgard) too
3- Yggdrasil is said to don't limited to "the realms"
4- Yggdrasil connecting "every plane" of reality
Odin, Seth, Surtur can't scale with Yggdrasil(Multiverse) because in the issue that Yggdrasil is set in every plane of existence, Seth explain that Yggdrasil transcend Odin.
Nobody was "mad" with you, when you said that Yggdrasil was represented like "9 planets" in space, I questioned, I have knowledge about each "age" of Norse Gods.
The Nine Realms in Marvel have always worked as different dimensions, when you write, you use many of "appeal to inconsistency", even where|when it isn't inconsistency, as you say that's.
1. "Gunningagap in Myth Cosmology" = Oblivion
Marvel have many description in Myth Cosmology to what is "Void before creation", in all case, this void is Amatsu Mikaboshi when we talking about Myth, he is describe in many myth in different names like "What Exist Before Creation" and all "Myth" was born of him.
Gunningagap description: "Once, there was nothing... Neither the Earth, nor the sky above, nor sun, nor moon, nor life! There was only endless abyss "
Prime description of Gunningagap is: Nothingness endless
In Thor Comics, the "Void Before Creation" is the same to all Myth, you can see when Demiurge create every god of Void(Gunningagap in Norse)
Offical Databook of Myth of Marvel describe the Void like Amatsu Mikaboshi
Thus, this void is an avatar of Oblivion to Marvel.
2. "Nine Realms"
The description about this realm are variable really, some times are describe as "universe" or planes. But never as planets in space, and I go beyond this.
- Asgard Realm in Journey Into Mystery: "Beyond our segment of time and space, there exist Asgard, the citadel of the Norse Gods, which is connected to Earth by a Rainbow Bridge called Bifrost" - "Beyond our segment of time space there exists Asgard, home of Norse Gods, which can only be reached from Earth by the Rainbow Bridge called Bifrost! "
-Marvel Saga: "It was Odin, Bill, and Ve who build the flittering city of Asgard, the home of Norse Gods, Asgard City is the capital of the land of Asgard, which exist in an dimension other than our ow "
Asgard in Thor Vol 1: Asgard is work as a higher plane of existence(Higher Dimension)
"No longer tethered to the mortal plane by the legendary rainbow bridge, Asgard continue to drift... deeper... ever deeper... into the nether regions of time and space" - Scan show that before fall, exist in higher regions of time and space.
"Yea, even beyond the most distant star, the farthest galaxy, the final universe, to the very edge of timeless infinity... And there, across shuimmering Rainbow Bridge... Beyond the reach of mortal time... there stands Asgard " - Thor about Asgard Realm
"Remembers a battle with god-being like itself, in a land which was somehow beyond both time adn space "
"Far beyond the mortal realm of time and space lies Asgard, home of the Mighty Norse Gods "
"At that precise moment, far across the universe, far beyond the mortal concepts of time and space, where Stands mighty Asgard, the legendary home of the Norse Gods "
Thor Vol 2
Asgard still be beyond the universe, and the description suggest existence of in higher dimensions.
"Beyond time, beyond the boundaries of space, beyond the great dimensional barrier there is more "
"But those who dwell on a higher plane not so limited. They watched transfixed by titanic struggle before them " - Asgardians as being of a higher dimension
"Beyond man's measure of time and space, beyond his ability to reach and comprehend, hies a place of everlasting wonder. Asgard, the realm eternal, where golden spires soar beyond the heavens "
Thor vol 3: Is where have the description of each 9 realms like dimensions, even that since of beginning, Nine Realms were made to be different dimensions.
3. Yggdrasil(616) =/= Yggdrasil(Multiverse)
Exist differents representations of Yggdrasil, I'll talk about. In 616 Yggdrasil have two representation that are used.
There are different representations of Yggdrasil, I'll talk about them. In 616 Yggdrasil have two representation that are used.
1: Nine Realms: The most comum representation, Yggdrasil is represented like in Norse Myth
This representation is linked with Axis Mundi or Cosmic Axis(Or Ouranos)
2: Axis Mundi, or link to other pantheons . Axis Mundi exist in Earth, but it's only a entrance to his form real The Axis is the center of power of world , and control the reality, even cosmic being as the Phoenix(White Phoenix) are affect by their control.
Axis Mundi the Yggdrasil be the 9 realms, as too the realm of every pantheon in earth.
And, even in "universal" cosmology of gods, as already said, their realms are multi-dimensional, with more than 10 dimensions, they are the "Key to multi-dimensional system"
Multiverse Yggdrasil: Here stay the greatest mentions about Yggdrasil:
The idea of Yggdrasil like something that connect every plane of reality
What prove that Yggdrasil is a multiverse structure? 1- Norns existence: Norns make every story about Thor , gods, in multiverse, not only 616, King Thor and variations of Thor were made by her - 1 - 2- 3 - 4 - 5 Even the end of multiverse was made by Norns.
2- Description of Tree(Yggdrasil) connecting every god, and in the same story, in reference to what Balder said, every dimension(Asgard) too
3- Yggdrasil is said to don't limited to "the realms"
4- Yggdrasil connecting "every plane" of reality
Odin, Seth, Surtur can't scale with Yggdrasil(Multiverse) because in the issue that Yggdrasil is set in every plane of existence, Seth explain that Yggdrasil transcend Odin.
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Well, if Al Ewing has explicitly established Yggdrasil as a multiversal representation of The One Above All in recent stories, I suppose that is considerably more reliable, in combination with the world tree seed scan. Although I would prefer scans with evidence for this.
The main problems, as I think that I and ClassicNESfan have mentioned previously, are that:
The main problems, as I think that I and ClassicNESfan have mentioned previously, are that:
- The Rune King Thor/Ragnarok storyline happened around 15 years before the current Jane Foster Valkyrie run, and scaling that far retroactively between different authors for something as inconsistent and incoherent as Marvel, is very unwise in terms of reliability.
- Why should we assume that Rune King Thor affected the entirety of Yggdrasil, and not just the local 2-C part of it, whereas Surtur and other threats did not?
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Hmm, doesn't Modern Strange scale to?
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Yeah, he was. I'm the one that made the page afterall (Forgot I did that).
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@Antvasima
Marvel use "Fate" as name to Norns,and the representation of Norns in Marvel Universe|Multiverse is to make the story. This representation is coherent with the function demonstrated in this issue.
About "Marvel Inconsistency", is fallacious to use this argument when you don't have motive to said it. I showed as Marvel worked with Thor across the ages, and it's still the same representation.
Before RKT, Journey Into Mystery showed Yggdrasil as "all planes of existence", and Thor Vol 2 is a continuation of this story, not only this story, but every story since Thor vol 1. Where everything interconnects each event to result in this moment where Thor can break the "Ragnarok".
The motive to scale with "True Yggdrasil" is clear too, Thor scale with the Norns, in story, Thor altered the Tapestry of Fate with all Story, and is shows Thor swallowing Yggdrasil in Tapestry.
RKT>Gods of gods>Norns=Multiverse Story
Marvel use "Fate" as name to Norns,and the representation of Norns in Marvel Universe|Multiverse is to make the story. This representation is coherent with the function demonstrated in this issue.
About "Marvel Inconsistency", is fallacious to use this argument when you don't have motive to said it. I showed as Marvel worked with Thor across the ages, and it's still the same representation.
Before RKT, Journey Into Mystery showed Yggdrasil as "all planes of existence", and Thor Vol 2 is a continuation of this story, not only this story, but every story since Thor vol 1. Where everything interconnects each event to result in this moment where Thor can break the "Ragnarok".
The motive to scale with "True Yggdrasil" is clear too, Thor scale with the Norns, in story, Thor altered the Tapestry of Fate with all Story, and is shows Thor swallowing Yggdrasil in Tapestry.
RKT>Gods of gods>Norns=Multiverse Story
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Strange only take a part of Yggdrasil power in Asgard(616)Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
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We still do not remotely have any reliable proof that the Norns are more powerful than the Living Tribunal or multiversal Eternity, or that every time some writer uses the word "fates" in an allegorical sense, he is deliberately referring to them. My apologies, but I think that this is turning so speculative, farfetched, and unreliable that it is downright stupid.
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Fate are represented to make the destiny of every things, gods, realms, and normal being. Why you believe that "Fate" is not about her?
Is the same that time concept(idea) be different of time itself. And when talk about time, the abstract is something apart.
Is the same that time concept(idea) be different of time itself. And when talk about time, the abstract is something apart.
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You are forcing a illogical point.
Marvel have "beings" to work as the idea of something.
Fate|Norns are the representation of destiny in Marvel, like Destiny(Dc).
Marvel have "beings" to work as the idea of something.
Fate|Norns are the representation of destiny in Marvel, like Destiny(Dc).
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Not like that is even relevant to any point being made here.
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Also, I love how everyone has refused to even acknowledge the scan where Odin states that the TWSAIS/Ginnungagap is "outside all realities"
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Thank you for the support Sera.
@Kepekley23
The "Ragnarok"/Rune King Thor story happened in 2004, if I remember correctly, whereas what Al Ewing may or may not (I haven't seen the scans yet) have established about Yggdrasil happened in 2019.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, several tier 10 to 4 lower beings survived being outside of the multiverse. It is not a consistently enough portrayed feat to automatically slap tier Low 1-A on anybody that achieves it.
@Kepekley23
The "Ragnarok"/Rune King Thor story happened in 2004, if I remember correctly, whereas what Al Ewing may or may not (I haven't seen the scans yet) have established about Yggdrasil happened in 2019.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, several tier 10 to 4 lower beings survived being outside of the multiverse. It is not a consistently enough portrayed feat to automatically slap tier Low 1-A on anybody that achieves it.
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@Kep
Wait...
... Outside all realities ? Hold up, wouldn't that be outside of higher-dimensions here if you are trying to prove 1-A... Or is Marvel all of a sudden treating all possible realities as far higher than 2-A all of a sudden without my prior knowledge ?
Wait...
... Outside all realities ? Hold up, wouldn't that be outside of higher-dimensions here if you are trying to prove 1-A... Or is Marvel all of a sudden treating all possible realities as far higher than 2-A all of a sudden without my prior knowledge ?
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I didn't say they shouldn't scale, and I specified "stories set many years apart". For example a story by one author from 2008 shouldn't scale by vaguely referencing something in a story by another author from 1980.
I still think Multi-Yggdrasill is Low 1-A but we should be careful when scaling.
I still think Multi-Yggdrasill is Low 1-A but we should be careful when scaling.
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Strange only take a part of Yggdrasil power in Asgard(616)
Yes, but afterwards he was able to restore the magically energy that was drained from earth back to the planet and to the wizard's snd witches. I think he should scale, knowing he could do that.
Yes, but afterwards he was able to restore the magically energy that was drained from earth back to the planet and to the wizard's snd witches. I think he should scale, knowing he could do that.
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Yes, but afterwards he was able to restore the magically energy that was drained from earth back to the planet and to the wizard's snd witches. I think he should scale, knowing he could do that.Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
Restore the Earth energy(Magic) don't have relation with Yggdrasil "True". The greatest feat in this issue was transmute a dimension of "hell".(Of a demon of class unknown) Even that you considere that Hell have dimensions that are higher, the current list of highest dimensions in hell, don't list the "Blood Dimension". I don't see scaling of Strange with "True Yggdrasil", only Strange with a fraction of a "avatar", and feats likely 2-C.
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I mean he already is 2-C though.
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@Peter
Doctor Strange is 2-C because of how they(Gods, Demons, and Angels) are scaled here. Demons, gods, and angels even with the description through time like higher dimensional beings, and are victims of fallacious about inconsistency.
But it's something far from being what's being discussed.
Doctor Strange is 2-C because of how they(Gods, Demons, and Angels) are scaled here. Demons, gods, and angels even with the description through time like higher dimensional beings, and are victims of fallacious about inconsistency.
But it's something far from being what's being discussed.
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That's his only featSera EX said:
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I'm 100% against scaling the Norns to this thing. Definitely Those Who Sit Above and MAYBE Rune King Thor.
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I should clarify. I'm fine with The Norns scaling to the Multiversal Extent of Yggdrasil given context from recent stories that show that the Norns are the same for all universes and dimensions and that they weave the stories of all the gods across all universes.
But I'm not fine with scaling The Norns to The Living Tribunal based on a single vague statement.
But I'm not fine with scaling The Norns to The Living Tribunal based on a single vague statement.
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Norns don't have scale to Low 1/A or 1/A The Tree have, the feat is of Yggdrasil.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Can people post the Scans from Al Ewing talking about Yggdrasil / The Sephiroth / The Tree of Life?
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Ultimately I feel this thread would be much more solid if you guys stuck to more recent storylines rather than trying to pull crap from decades ago to try and use as backup evidence. Clearly the modern Loki: Agent of Asgards / Gods of Stories / Al Ewing / Whatever comics have a different approach than the older ones.
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@Matthew Schroeder
When Jane Foster went to threw Heimdall in the heave (not heven the tenth realm), she had to go to a yggdrasil root that lay in Greek hell, the anti-tree, the shadow of yggdrasil. Through this, she threw Heimdall beyond the Far Shore on the outside.
In addition, Al Ewing spoke in an official interview of this chapter about the yggdrasil that she is:
"The overarching idea here … is a kind of tour of Heaven and Hell in the Marvel Universe that's also a journey up the middle pillar of the Tree of Life."
When Jane Foster went to threw Heimdall in the heave (not heven the tenth realm), she had to go to a yggdrasil root that lay in Greek hell, the anti-tree, the shadow of yggdrasil. Through this, she threw Heimdall beyond the Far Shore on the outside.
In addition, Al Ewing spoke in an official interview of this chapter about the yggdrasil that she is:
"The overarching idea here … is a kind of tour of Heaven and Hell in the Marvel Universe that's also a journey up the middle pillar of the Tree of Life."
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