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Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

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Dante Demon Killah said:
He was warping the surface (at least) of the planet without a clear timeframe, that's High 6-A (maybe 183 pt), possibly 5-B if we consider that he was completely nerfed while doing it and that he could be fusing the whole Planet, not only the surface
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Again, there has been absolutely no evidence given to say that the feat is purely planetary in scale, and surely enough to say that it is universal in scale. Considering it to be just planetary is backed up by nothing.
 
We do know for a fact that Argosax was affecting the whole planet it seems, and warping it, but arguing that it'd be on a universal scale seems quite ridiculous to me, I must say. As I have explained before, we don't know the fully explained mechanics of the merging, how long it would take, or that it would be on a universal scale.

To assume that every cubic centimeter of the universe would be affected to the same degree as that village that is mentioned seems like a reach, and the mere fact that the Human World and the Demon World are separate realities isn't good evidence on itself.

See The Legend of Zelda for an analogy. Hyrule is regularly used to mean a Kingdom, a World, and a Universe depending on the context. Whether they're talking about just the kingdom Zelda rules or the world created by the Goddesses and specially in the context of other dimensions.

Likewise, in Devil May Cry "World" and "Human World" isn't exclusively referring to the whole universe. The series is set on Earth, which is the focus of all demons and villains of the series, and characters never go to space and we never get a represented scope of things beyond the level of just Earth being threatened by demons.

It is also worth reminder that Argosax is the holder of the sole feat amongst these God Tier demons that isn't controversial or debated to exhaustion in the context of its very existence. Rather than Mundus which we can be stuck in an endless limbo of back n' forth for years over whether or not he made a dimension at the end of the series, it is indeed visible that Argosax was affecting the human world and warping it with his power as the barriers between the two worlds weakened.

But this is the thing, much like how in Mortal Kombat the Realms are different parts of the universes, different dimensions to themselves, the warping and merging of realms performed by the likes of Shao Kahn only affects landmasses / planets, suddenly assuming that Argosax was reality warping the entirety of our universe going of merely of a few lines of dialogue seems... Quite sketchy to me.

I mean no disrespect to anyone who holds the opinion, but you have to understand that as far as verifiable (As in, something you can see and check as real and reliable) truth presented in the games themselves, we have none. We have some dialogue and loading screen flavor text that doesn't make it clear at all, specially given that most of it comes from Arius, a character who is characterized as a megalomaniacal villain (Really, if I got a dime for everytime a villain in fiction boasted about becoming all powerful / destroying the world / or whatnot), I'd be rich...

To give credit where credit is due, the BradyGames Guidebook does indeed mention that our dimension will be consumed by the Demon World. But that in itself is far more ambiguous than one may think. "Consumed" in what sense. I know what most people who are using it as evidence are picturing: The whole of our universe being wrapped, pulled and absorbed into another, or another reality seeping into our own and merging with it. Almost like bubbles touching and mingling into one another.

... But that's not the sole possible meaning of the term. It can merely mean it's complete domination and assimilation, in the sense that upon being conquered by the Demon World, Earth would effectively become an extension of it. See the opening lines of the Devil May Cry 3 manga again. Mundus merely invades Earth and tries to rule it, which is in fact what the vast majority of powerful demons in the series attempt to do.

Argosax is very ill-defined as a being. He seems hardly sentient and we have little context on what he actually is. IT's hard to discern his motives and if he even has them, but I feel we would be making far too many assumptions to simply asign "Universal" to him.

And using lore from the Bradygames Guidebooks is honestly in my opinion like using the old American Devil May Cry Comics, which were licensed by Capcom and officially released, but are not part of the canon and didn't share any writers with the series. Or the Brazilian Mortal Kombat 4 comics where Raiden nearly destroys the multiverse in his fight with Shinnok, which surprisingly aren't a bootleg either but an official product.

Though it is endorsed by Capcom and an official guidebook on how to beat the game and whatnot, it is a third party source and should be viewed as such. It is not the ultimate in authority as far as canon and unquestionable sources go.

But why do I feel that High 6-A or 5-B can work? Simply because it is a lower, more reasonable take on the whole "Argosax is warping the human world" statements, which are more in line with the rest of the series, don't leave room for ambiguity and thus potential misunderstandings and high-balling. That there are no other feats on this scale is worth considering, specially given what we see in the rest of the Devil May Cry franchise. Certainly no consistent universal scale for the most powerful demons.

Hope this is understanding.
 
Just pointing out that this part is false.

" Likewise, in Devil May Cry "World" and "Human World" isn't exclusively referring to the whole universe. The series is set on Earth, which is the focus of all demons and villains of the series, and characters never go to space and we never get a represented scope of things beyond the level of just Earth being threatened by demons. "

As we see in the DMC novels, Mundus has conquered different planets previously.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
Having read the whole post now, I will write up a rebuttal.
Click to expand...
Very well, now let's wait for Paradox's rebuttal before coming to any conclusions.
 
The guide book for dmc 1 said sparda stopped mundus from taking over the universe so the human has been referred as a universe

If 3-A isn't accepted I think at least 5-B is okay
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
Having read the whole post now, I will write up a rebuttal.
Click to expand...
You still there, Paradox?
 
Okay, let's do this.

> We do know for a fact that Argosax was affecting the whole planet it seems, and warping it, but arguing that it'd be on a universal scale seems quite ridiculous to me, I must say. As I have explained before, we don't know the fully explained mechanics of the merging, how long it would take, or that it would be on a universal scale.

1. Definitely untrue. We were informed exactly of how it was going to be accomplished - by using Reality Warping. The game progressively gave us more information on the feat. Mission 14 gives us a lot of detail on how the distortion takes place, with whole áreas being completely swapped and turned into unescapable mazes, lots of chaotic elements from the Demon World blending in with our reality (such as the fleshy composition of the Demon World replacing large portions of buildings, and the distorted characteristic, reddish sky with no stars). Pretty much baseline Reality Warping at play here

2. The timeframe is heavily affected by the fact that Argosax was still mostly sealed when the feat began taking place. Arius informs the player of the world already being distorted on Lucia's Mission 8, after the first preparations for the ritual are set up, and before any of the Arcanas are found. As soon as Dante hands Arius three of the four Arcana, the distortions intensify unimaginably fast, with the environment having been almost completely distorted in a mere 2 missions, and the guide clarifying that the Demon World is rapidly approaching the Human World at that point. So we also have a very decente idea of the timeframe.

3. We have already provided the evidence suggesting a universal scale for the feat, namely the guide's confirmation and Arius's quote correlating to the DMC3 manga intro. To prevent circularity, check below for my rebuttals on the "guide" claims.

> See The Legend of Zelda for an analogy. Hyrule is regularly used to mean a Kingdom, a World, and a Universe depending on the context. Whether they're talking about just the kingdom Zelda rules or the world created by the Goddesses and specially in the context of other dimensions.

1. Except this is a false equivalence. Hyrule is literally always, without fail, used to refer to the planet, if not even the country, with extremely rare, if not individual exceptions to the rule. There is no basis for comparing it to DMC terminology, where the Human World, when explicitly mentioned in such a term, is always referring to the entire universe/our dimension. This consistency traces back to the very first Devil May Cry game, where it is stated that Mundus wants to dominate the universe in reference to the Human World, is seen again on Devil May Cry 2, and the DMC3 manga gives us na in-depth lore explanation of how the original universe got Split n two, with the Human World being our universe, and the Demon World being our counterpart. The novels have also struggled to maintain this consistency with numerous quotes talking about the "Human Dimension" whenever characters are recounting the tales of Mundus and Sparda. Simply put, this is simple a horrid equivalence to use.

2. And, to top it off, there is no ambiguous terminology in any of the scans to begin with. None of the scans provided by the supporters use "Human World". All of the scans we have given specify the usage on a dimensional scale, such as the guidebook stating the entire dimension would be consumed, and Arius specifying the original state of things - a clear reference to the DMC3 manga, which specifies a universal scale as well. So this part of the post was honestly completely unnecessary.

> But this is the thing, much like how in Mortal Kombat the Realms are different parts of the universes, different dimensions to themselves, the warping and merging of realms performed by the likes of Shao Kahn only affects landmasses / planets, suddenly assuming that Argosax was reality warping the entirety of our universe going of merely of a few lines of dialogue seems... Quite sketchy to me.

As I have gone into in spades of detail before, Mortal Kombat is a false equivalence. None of the characters in Mortal Kombat are ever specified to perform the feat on a universal scale, while Argosax is specified by a couple of scans to perform his feat on such a scale.

The only way one could inject ambiguity into the scans would be if other scans were provided that directly specify a mere world-wide scale, and reinforce that only our planet was affected. No such scans exist in Devil May Cry, therefore there is no ambiguity and absolutely no reason to reject the confirmation on the scale.

> I mean no disrespect to anyone who holds the opinion, but you have to understand that as far as verifiable (As in, something you can see and check as real and reliable) truth presented in the games themselves, we have none. We have some dialogue and loading screen flavor text that doesn't make it clear at all, specially given that most of it comes from Arius, a character who is characterized as a megalomaniacal villain (Really, if I got a dime for everytime a villain in fiction boasted about becoming all powerful / destroying the world / or whatnot), I'd be rich...

As I have gone in-depth about several times before, this is a midjudgement of Arius's character. His main desire has nothing to do with destroying the world. His goal is to absorb Argosax's power and rule over humanity. The entire tone of the scene where he makes his statement completely ggoes against this, with the scene being about Lucia's hopelessness, and how her ordeal to hide the Arcanas is just derailing na lready-rring process. Arguing that Arius's word is inaccurate is completely baseless. The burden of proof requires that you prove this. His word fits perfectly with the events, and is backed up by every other neutral source as well as our own eyesight. Provide evidence against his word's validity, and contradictions against it, and I might entertain this bit.

> ... But that's not the sole possible meaning of the term. It can merely mean it's complete domination and assimilation, in the sense that upon being conquered by the Demon World, Earth would effectively become an extension of it. See the opening lines of the Devil May Cry 3 manga again. Mundus merely invades Earth and tries to rule it, which is in fact what the vast majority of powerful demons in the series attempt to do.

How can I start with this one?

1. First of all, the context of "domination" is completely out of line with the feat. You yourself have admitted that Argosax's feat does involve literal distorti with the world - therefore, Occam's Razor would have it that, just like with every single statement in the game reinforcing that the Human World and the Demon World are literally merging with each other, that this one statement specifying how the Demon World would literally consume our whole dimension would follow the same context as the others, instead of switching onto a never-used, completely unseen-in-the-game meaning about mere "world domination", especially considering the fact that this is not an individual claim about Argosax consuming the dimension, it is a full-on reference to the Demon World doing so. So this already starts off having extremely high standards to meet in order for it to be viable as a response, standards that don't actually exist on the rest of the game.

2. Second, Mundus, as I have tried to say many and many times before, is completely irrelevant to the discussion and Argosax. By the common belief, Mundus only invades the world through the usage of portals. Meanwhile, there is too much evidence to cite at this point of Argosax literally merging both the Human World and the Demon World with Reality Warping and distorting - Mundus is a false equivalence of the highest order in this scenario, as he and his devil army don't meet the same scenario and thus can't be used as an equivalence. And, to elaborate further on a point of contention I mentioned above, the scan specifies the Demon World consuming the dimension. The vast majority of the retellings of the tale of Mundus invading the Human World all specify Mundus himself doing so. Next to zero statements talk about the Demon World as a location consuming the Human World as far as the tale of Mundus is concerned.

3. Third, this interpretation collapses on itself, as it specifically uses the term "dimension" to refer to the consumption - not Human World (although it'd be the same thing, given the large swathe of context of the Human World referring to the dimenson in the series), not Earth, not world. It specifically said that our dimension will be consumed. This would be an extremely weird statement if it were to be interpreted the way you're proposing it to be, and would be out of tone with every single other similar event in the series.

Occam's Razor once again establishes things to be taken at face value, especially when the entire game's lore backs it up.

> Argosax is very ill-defined as a being. He seems hardly sentient and we have little context on what he actually is. IT's hard to discern his motives and if he even has them'

Argosax's motives and reasoning are irrelevant to his established feats nor do they do anything to disprove them, especially because they establish him as a silent and completely bestial entity on purpose, to give him the feeling of a literal devil.

And using lore from the Bradygames Guidebooks is honestly in my opinion like using the old American Devil May Cry Comics, which were licensed by Capcom and officially released, but are not part of the canon and didn't share any writers with the series

Except this is not how we do things on this wiki nor is it at all a reasonable point of view in this situation. The Bradygames Guidebooks weren't only licensed by Capcom - they were written with input from the developer team of Devil May Cry, as the guidebook itself notes by thanking the creators for the input in its introduction (as all Brady and Prima guides go). Not only are they official sources, they're definitely canon and hold large amounts of validity on the series's events. Rejecting them without a contradiction on the series itself is basically handwaving evidence.

> It is not the ultimate in authority as far as canon and unquestionable sources go.

Of course it isn't the ultimate authority. As is our entire policy with canonical guidebooks, they are valid until contradicted. Thus this is a non-argument at best.

> But why do I feel that High 6-A or 5-B can work? Simply because it is a lower, more reasonable take on the whole "Argosax is warping the human world" statements, which are more in line with the rest of the series, don't leave room for ambiguity and thus potential misunderstandings and high-balling

Except that we can not reinvent feats and scans just to make them more "consistent" with the rest of the series. The scans have to be taken for what they are, and the feat has to be analyzed with the information we have on it. The evidence here supports the 3-A conclusion for the feat. I am completely in opposition to an invented High 6-A rating or a 5-B rating, as it utilizes the fallacy that the viewer's senses are better evidence than official and canonical clarification on the full scale of the feat. There are no scans reinforcing planetary scale, while there are a fair few amount of scans proving the feat is universal in scale.

Again, I rest my case and view on this situation.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

Just to address some of your points Matthew.

"'To assume that every cubic centimeter of the universe would be affected to the same degree as that village that is mentioned seems like a reach, and the mere fact that the Human World and the Demon World are separate realities isn't good evidence on itself."

"Likewise, in Devil May Cry "World" and "Human World" isn't exclusively referring to the whole universe. The series is set on Earth, which is the focus of all demons and villains of the series, and characters never go to space and we never get a represented scope of things beyond the level of just Earth being threatened by demons."

This would be true if we didn't know what the Human World and Demon World were originally and how it came to be.As shown in the OP:

"The world was born darkness.Unending darkness,crucible of chao.But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light.The universe was eventually split in two.The darkness became the realm of the demons and the light became the domai of the mortals."-DMC3 manga prologue

Although it's difficult to see a sca of the DMC1 game manual shows the usage of the words "realm" and "world" to refer to the Human and Demon World and from the DMC 3 manga it also refers to the Human and Demon World as universe,realm and domain.In fact this is how it's used most of the time throughout the series.The has a good ammount of evidence differentiating "Earth" and "Human World".

The novels do this acceptionally well with the DMC1 novel refering to the Demon World as "dimension" or "world" (INCOMING A LARGE AMMOUNT OF QUOTES).Gilver doing merging similiar to Argosax, causing a building to morph and warp to look like the Demon World but on a much limited scale and Gilver goes on saying "This is your world" (refering to the Human World as in universe), "Yes. The demon world is replacing yours.It will 'spread out from this nexus until finally everything is consumed." and the DMC2 novel interchanging "universe" with the "world" multiple times."Falling, but to a world that has taken another path." (World in this case means universe),"I was swallowed by the Beastheads and somehow sent to this middle world."(Another example of world = universe and indirectly saying the Human and Demon World are universe)."Well, how long do you plan on sitting here? If this really is another world, we've got to figure out a way to get back." Beryl clutched her rifle anxiously. She had reflexively adopted a combat posture, unable to relax in the subtle horror of the parallel world".(self explanatory),"This clashed with Dante's own memory. He had killed Nelo Angelo in combat back in the human dimension. But that was a different world with different rules."(this time refering to the Human World as dimension and universe as world), "History ran a different course on your world" (self explanatory),"We seem to have been transported into your world by a magical tool called the Beastheads.Beastheads. It appears to have the power to shift people between dimensions."(self explanatory and universe referred to as dimension) and many many more.

Next thing.

"To give credit where credit is due, the BradyGames Guidebook does indeed mention that our dimension will be consumed by the Demon World. But that in itself is far more ambiguous than one may think. "Consumed" in what sense. I know what most people who are using it as evidence are picturing: The whole of our universe being wrapped, pulled and absorbed into another, or another reality seeping into our own and merging with it. Almost like bubbles touching and mingling into one another.

... But that's not the sole possible meaning of the term. It can merely mean it's complete domination and assimilation, in the sense that upon being conquered by the Demon World, Earth would effectively become an extension of it. See the opening lines of the Devil May Cry 3 manga again. Mundus merely invades Earth and tries to rule it, which is in fact what the vast majority of powerful demons in the series attempt to do."

This is just outright wrong.As shown before and by your own admittance, the method and meaning of the term "consume" was through reality warping/merging (don't really know the proper term).Nothing involving invasion or conquering the Human World by portals because even before said portals ever appeared in DMC2 we are shown the world was being warped dramatically, if you believe in the guidebooks then the warping would only be limited to Dumary Island for a little while but if you don't believe the guidebook then the most logical assumption would be to accept Arius words when he said the world was already warped, nothing makes Arius unreliable,especially when it comes to Argosax and knowledge of the demon world, he's the head of an entire organization that specializes in studying everything related to demons and even had someone as genius as Agnus as a mere employee according to Before The Nightmare.

Don't worry I understand where you are coming from now thanks for you response.
 
I still fully agree with Paradox in this situation. There is just one more thing I must clarify though; can we avoid making comparisons to other verses on the wiki? Both the supporters and opposition in this debate have used this tactic very frequently, because the treatment of some verses could either defend or reject this feat being valid. I've heard comparisons to verses like Dark Souls on the supporter side and Mortal Kombat on the opposing side. The problem is, the way that verses are handled on the wiki is far too inconsistent in regards to valid feats. That's not a good thing, mind you, but it certainly happens. As such, using comparisons to other verses really doesn't help either side in any way and will just make this take longer than it has to. Again, I'm still firmly on the supporters side, but I'm not just talking about the opposition here. My point is that comparing DMC to any other verse on the wiki can result in nothing except needless back-and-forth. No more comparisons to Dark Souls, MK, or whatever; no conclusion can be reached that way.
 
A little off topic but, Matt, the Relativistic Combat/Reaction upgrade by this calc seems fine for you ?

"There are no scans reinforcing planetary scale"

Except by many scans saying that the world is warped, "world" it's not necessarily "Universe", the scale it's at the very least Planetary
 
Kepekley23 said:
Meeh.

I found the response kinda weak and easy to pick apart in comparison to what was promised, especially concerning the attempt to invalidate the guides, which bothered me the most, and that stuff about the "consuming our dimension" statement.
Click to expand...
Which response are you referring to
 
Kepekley23 said:
Meeh.
I found the response kinda weak and easy to pick apart in comparison to what was promised, especially concerning the attempt to invalidate the guides, which bothered me the most, and that stuff about the "consuming our dimension" statement.
Click to expand...
You know...if we are going to give criticism, at least make it constructive. Instead of, "hey, this reply was crappy and did not entertaining as I'd hoped", try "I am not the most impressed with the reply and here's why, detailed reason #1, detailed reason #2, etc". This obvious fanning the flames is starting to wear thin as that is what I see here and I've been seeing. I've been told that I have had a bleak outlook on the thread and assume it's going to go to hell immediately. Well this doesn't alleviate that at all when the response is a borderline jab. If the previous comments did the job explaining, then this comment was not needed at all.

If you disagree with the response, then fine, you disagree. No need to get smarmy with it just to be smarmy. I'll stop at that.
 
I posted that while I was still adding things to it (you can even check the many edits in my post history as soon as that comment went out) and got caught off guard by something untimely. I will elaborate later, if you will.
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
A little off topic but, Matt, the Relativistic Combat/Reaction upgrade by this calc seems fine for you ?
"There are no scans reinforcing planetary scale"

Except by many scans saying that the world is warped, "world" it's not necessarily "Universe", the scale it's at the very least Planetary
Click to expand...
No.

Only one scan says the world is warped in the sense you're trying to depict it as. The same scan that is blatantly universal when it references the original state of the universe seen on the DMC3 manga intro.

And no, that's not an example of a scan reinforcing planetary scale. A scan reinforcing planetary scale would be an outright reference to only the planet or the Earth being warped.
 
I had asked Reb to copy-paste this here for me if the thread was resumed and I wasn't around, but I guess he's offline. I'll put it here since it's a general thing and not a specific rebuttal:

"I don't know most of you personally, but I'd like to reiterate to my supporters to take it easy on Matt whether or not I'm here (since IRL stuff). Granted, Matt can invite disdain by such remarks about our hard-fought case as "April Fools must have arrived late," "one of the worst proposed upgrades in the history of the wiki," and so on, but dude's got law exams and such IRL pressuring his judgement. Besides, it'd be wrong to repay him with more toxicity, anyway. Capecrap is a fun way to exercise logic skills and such, yet only if the stakes are low, so remember that people have their well-earned reps on the line depending on your approach.

To recap my objections to his, um, objections, I see them as projection of personal interpretations of "vague" and "unreliable" and "it's possible that" onto the less subjective case of the OP, without making the case for being more consistent or probable than the OP. The points closest to hard evidence against us have been debunked through these two threads as errors in recollecting details. Our case allows us to take facts at face value instead of making suppositions, & our explanation uses substantial amounts of evidence, covers the whole scope of the series (including scaling, feats of similar scale, cosmology, etc), illuminates other facets of lore via context, & doesn't put its weight on personal definitions of reliability or vagueness and such.

If Matt can get some guys to help him out by demonstrating objective inconsistencies in our interpretation, all the better that we get something new from that side to discuss. But saying "Well, there's a possibility that x y z" isn't enough. Show evidence that 100% shows the OP wrong and your interpretation right. We need extraordinary evidence that debunks a line of thought with the properties mentioned at the end of the last paragraph. If no dissenters have anything new and concrete to bring to the table, then the evidence (as well as the majority so far) should carry the upgrades through. Either way, good luck, have fun, shake hands afterwards!"

^Again, not really specific to anything -- I'm with Paradox & Dieno's latest replies & won't add more until there's a space to fill -- but I figured this would still be relevant to post now in regards to how to go about in terms of tone, as well as what my side wants from the opposition. Just reiteration; see those posts by those two guys for responses until the next counter-argument.
 
No.

Only one scan says the world is warped in the sense you're trying to depict it as. The same scan that is blatantly universal when it references the original state of the universe seen on the DMC3 manga intro.

And no, that's not an example of a scan reinforcing planetary scale. A scan reinforcing planetary scale would be an outright reference to only the planet or the Earth being warped.

Unsure if the "original form" is necessarily, directly linked to that manga part or if it's talking about that era when the Earth was near conquered by demons, just before Sparda's rebellion, just like DMC2 opening stated:

"In the age of darkness, when the earth was overrun with demons"
 
Uh, it's blatantly talking about the original form of the universe, considering:

1. It's quite literally what he says on the scan

2. It's a statement made in reference to the worlds merging and thus can't mean anything else

3. The demons overruning Earth isn't any sort of "original form" of the world, it's a reference to Mundus's armies conquering the world
 
I'm very highly doubtful they were referring to the time that the earth had demons on it. That may have been what came before, but that's not even remotely the original form. Also, his quote coming straight after saying "The world is already warped" means that mid-way through the conversation he unexpectedly started talking about an entirely seperate topic. We know what the "original form" of the universe was; it was stated in the DMC3 Manga. To state that he was referring to something else, especially in the context, would require some pretty good proof.
 
I'm getting really tired of repeated DMC threads, but my opinion on the matter hasn't changed; I agree with Matt about DMC not being universal.
 
Can someone make a quick estimate on the votes? I have already lost the count of how many people agree or disagree myself.
 
Well, with the last posts from DarkGrath and Paradox, I gotta agree with the upgrade, at least for now

If both sides made arguments that brought it to the point where a vote count was needed then you guys might as well give the characters this, possibly this rating.

You mean, "At least High 6-A, likely 5-B, possibly 3-A" ?
 
@LordGriffin

Definitely, but our standards for settling threads are all over the place and more inconsistent than Marvel and DC's powerscaling, sadly.
 
Agree: 18(19?) (Dienomite22, Sparda 20000000, ma boi Reb, AstralKing7(?), AogiriKira, Ogbunabali, DarkGrath, Tony di bugalu, ParadoxIndifferent, TISSG7Redgrave, ShiroyashaGinSan, Kepekley23 & Dante Demon Killah [on Argosax's feat in particular. Kep also sorta greenlit it], BlackDarkness679, DMUA, Kyo Takashi, Callsign Castle, CryoTheMayo, Sir sun man)

Disagree: 4 (Matthew Schroeder, The real cal howard, Paul Frank, TriforcePower1 [on Mundus' feat in particular])

Neutral: 4 (Ryukama, Dragonmasterxyz, Dark649, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan)

It's from Reb on the previous thread
 
I don't think a thread this heavily debated should be closed based on popularity just for the sake of getting it done with. If I'm being perfectly honest though, I'm not sure how this thread could be concluded in this state. The only person who has both disagreed and been very active on the thread for his point has been Matthew Schroeder. And yet, he's by far the most trusted member in the DMC community on here. Either the thread is accepted and we go against the conclusion of the most trusted member, or the thread is rejected and we throw away the conclusions made by almost everyone else (including all the other knowledgeable members when it comes to DMC). Let me restate: I am not in any way defending concluding the thread based on popularity. But the only way for this thread to reach a true conclusion is if either Matthew changes his mind, or nearly 20 people all change their mind, neither of which could seemingly happen in any reasonable amount of time and neither of which could be forced. How then can the thread be concluded?
 
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