Okay, let's do this.
> We do know for a fact that Argosax was affecting the whole planet it seems, and warping it, but arguing that it'd be on a universal scale seems quite ridiculous to me, I must say. As I have explained before, we don't know the fully explained mechanics of the merging, how long it would take, or that it would be on a universal scale.
1. Definitely untrue. We were informed exactly of how it was going to be accomplished - by using Reality Warping. The game progressively gave us more information on the feat. Mission 14 gives us a lot of detail on how the distortion takes place, with whole áreas being completely swapped and turned into unescapable mazes, lots of chaotic elements from the Demon World blending in with our reality (such as the fleshy composition of the Demon World replacing large portions of buildings, and the distorted characteristic, reddish sky with no stars). Pretty much baseline Reality Warping at play here
2. The timeframe is heavily affected by the fact that Argosax was still mostly sealed when the feat began taking place. Arius informs the player of the world already being distorted on Lucia's Mission 8, after the first preparations for the ritual are set up, and before any of the Arcanas are found. As soon as Dante hands Arius three of the four Arcana, the distortions intensify unimaginably fast, with the environment having been almost completely distorted in a mere 2 missions, and the guide clarifying that the Demon World is rapidly approaching the Human World at that point. So we also have a very decente idea of the timeframe.
3. We have already provided the evidence suggesting a universal scale for the feat, namely the guide's confirmation and Arius's quote correlating to the DMC3 manga intro. To prevent circularity, check below for my rebuttals on the "guide" claims.
> See The Legend of Zelda for an analogy. Hyrule is regularly used to mean a Kingdom, a World, and a Universe depending on the context. Whether they're talking about just the kingdom Zelda rules or the world created by the Goddesses and specially in the context of other dimensions.
1. Except this is a false equivalence. Hyrule is literally always, without fail, used to refer to the planet, if not even the country, with extremely rare, if not individual exceptions to the rule. There is no basis for comparing it to DMC terminology, where the Human World, when explicitly mentioned in such a term, is always referring to the entire universe/our dimension. This consistency traces back to the very first Devil May Cry game, where it is stated that Mundus wants to dominate the universe in reference to the Human World, is seen again on Devil May Cry 2, and the DMC3 manga gives us na in-depth lore explanation of how the original universe got Split n two, with the Human World being our universe, and the Demon World being our counterpart. The novels have also struggled to maintain this consistency with numerous quotes talking about the "Human Dimension" whenever characters are recounting the tales of Mundus and Sparda. Simply put, this is simple a horrid equivalence to use.
2. And, to top it off, there is no ambiguous terminology in any of the scans to begin with. None of the scans provided by the supporters use "Human World". All of the scans we have given specify the usage on a dimensional scale, such as the guidebook stating the entire dimension would be consumed, and Arius specifying the original state of things - a clear reference to the DMC3 manga, which specifies a universal scale as well. So this part of the post was honestly completely unnecessary.
> But this is the thing, much like how in Mortal Kombat the Realms are different parts of the universes, different dimensions to themselves, the warping and merging of realms performed by the likes of Shao Kahn only affects landmasses / planets, suddenly assuming that Argosax was reality warping the entirety of our universe going of merely of a few lines of dialogue seems... Quite sketchy to me.
As I have gone into in spades of detail before, Mortal Kombat is a false equivalence. None of the characters in Mortal Kombat are ever specified to perform the feat on a universal scale, while Argosax is specified by a couple of scans to perform his feat on such a scale.
The only way one could inject ambiguity into the scans would be if other scans were provided that directly specify a mere world-wide scale, and reinforce that only our planet was affected. No such scans exist in Devil May Cry, therefore there is no ambiguity and absolutely no reason to reject the confirmation on the scale.
> I mean no disrespect to anyone who holds the opinion, but you have to understand that as far as verifiable (As in, something you can see and check as real and reliable) truth presented in the games themselves, we have none. We have some dialogue and loading screen flavor text that doesn't make it clear at all, specially given that most of it comes from Arius, a character who is characterized as a megalomaniacal villain (Really, if I got a dime for everytime a villain in fiction boasted about becoming all powerful / destroying the world / or whatnot), I'd be rich...
As I have gone in-depth about several times before, this is a midjudgement of Arius's character. His main desire has nothing to do with destroying the world. His goal is to absorb Argosax's power and rule over humanity. The entire tone of the scene where he makes his statement completely ggoes against this, with the scene being about Lucia's hopelessness, and how her ordeal to hide the Arcanas is just derailing na lready-rring process. Arguing that Arius's word is inaccurate is completely baseless. The burden of proof requires that you prove this. His word fits perfectly with the events, and is backed up by every other neutral source as well as our own eyesight. Provide evidence against his word's validity, and contradictions against it, and I might entertain this bit.
> ... But that's not the sole possible meaning of the term. It can merely mean it's complete domination and assimilation, in the sense that upon being conquered by the Demon World, Earth would effectively become an extension of it. See the opening lines of the Devil May Cry 3 manga again. Mundus merely invades Earth and tries to rule it, which is in fact what the vast majority of powerful demons in the series attempt to do.
How can I start with this one?
1. First of all, the context of "domination" is completely out of line with the feat. You yourself have admitted that Argosax's feat does involve literal distorti with the world - therefore, Occam's Razor would have it that, just like with every single statement in the game reinforcing that the Human World and the Demon World are literally merging with each other, that this one statement specifying how the Demon World would literally consume our whole dimension would follow the same context as the others, instead of switching onto a never-used, completely unseen-in-the-game meaning about mere "world domination", especially considering the fact that this is not an individual claim about Argosax consuming the dimension, it is a full-on reference to the Demon World doing so. So this already starts off having extremely high standards to meet in order for it to be viable as a response, standards that don't actually exist on the rest of the game.
2. Second, Mundus, as I have tried to say many and many times before, is completely irrelevant to the discussion and Argosax. By the common belief, Mundus only invades the world through the usage of portals. Meanwhile, there is too much evidence to cite at this point of Argosax literally merging both the Human World and the Demon World with Reality Warping and distorting - Mundus is a false equivalence of the highest order in this scenario, as he and his devil army don't meet the same scenario and thus can't be used as an equivalence. And, to elaborate further on a point of contention I mentioned above, the scan specifies the Demon World consuming the dimension. The vast majority of the retellings of the tale of Mundus invading the Human World all specify Mundus himself doing so. Next to zero statements talk about the Demon World as a location consuming the Human World as far as the tale of Mundus is concerned.
3. Third, this interpretation collapses on itself, as it specifically uses the term "dimension" to refer to the consumption - not Human World (although it'd be the same thing, given the large swathe of context of the Human World referring to the dimenson in the series), not Earth, not world. It specifically said that our dimension will be consumed. This would be an extremely weird statement if it were to be interpreted the way you're proposing it to be, and would be out of tone with every single other similar event in the series.
Occam's Razor once again establishes things to be taken at face value, especially when the entire game's lore backs it up.
> Argosax is very ill-defined as a being. He seems hardly sentient and we have little context on what he actually is. IT's hard to discern his motives and if he even has them'
Argosax's motives and reasoning are irrelevant to his established feats nor do they do anything to disprove them, especially because they establish him as a silent and completely bestial entity on purpose, to give him the feeling of a literal devil.
And using lore from the Bradygames Guidebooks is honestly in my opinion like using the old American Devil May Cry Comics, which were licensed by Capcom and officially released, but are not part of the canon and didn't share any writers with the series
Except this is not how we do things on this wiki nor is it at all a reasonable point of view in this situation. The Bradygames Guidebooks weren't only licensed by Capcom - they were written with input from the developer team of Devil May Cry, as the guidebook itself notes by thanking the creators for the input in its introduction (as all Brady and Prima guides go). Not only are they official sources, they're definitely canon and hold large amounts of validity on the series's events. Rejecting them without a contradiction on the series itself is basically handwaving evidence.
> It is not the ultimate in authority as far as canon and unquestionable sources go.
Of course it isn't the ultimate authority. As is our entire policy with canonical guidebooks, they are valid until contradicted. Thus this is a non-argument at best.
> But why do I feel that High 6-A or 5-B can work? Simply because it is a lower, more reasonable take on the whole "Argosax is warping the human world" statements, which are more in line with the rest of the series, don't leave room for ambiguity and thus potential misunderstandings and high-balling
Except that we can not reinvent feats and scans just to make them more "consistent" with the rest of the series. The scans have to be taken for what they are, and the feat has to be analyzed with the information we have on it. The evidence here supports the 3-A conclusion for the feat. I am completely in opposition to an invented High 6-A rating or a 5-B rating, as it utilizes the fallacy that the viewer's senses are better evidence than official and canonical clarification on the full scale of the feat. There are no scans reinforcing planetary scale, while there are a fair few amount of scans proving the feat is universal in scale.
Again, I rest my case and view on this situation.
