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Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

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Look, I get it. You want this discussion to be peaceful. So do I. But listen, nobody (aside from one guy and that one reply I made) so far has attacked anything other than other people's arguments. You already told people to keep it civil. And they did. No need to make a several paragraph reply.

But anyway, we're taking up space and should probably stop.

The fact that I am not the only one saying this shows that I am not the only one seeing this. Either way, dropp8ng this, I've made my point to what I've seen.
 
Why can't we just go with High 6-A or 5-B. It is safe, it is logical, and it is far more consistent with the rest of the series, with 3-A being an undeniable outlier (See Cal Howard's posts in the past thread).
 
We have no objective reason to believe that the scale of the warping is less than universal. We have a quote and everything we can see in the levels and areas (including setting locations already visted by then) post-plot point is warped. The scale of this feat is supported by lore and the probability of the existence of feats on similar scale (DMC1 and 2 novel). It is indeed the context that helps us. And all the other entries have villains who scale via statements or power absorption, granting more consistency. The mere possibility of an altnerate interpretation does not make the OP less viable.

If you can't handle the nature of your approach being questioned, there is perhaps something to be said of your approach.
 
Before I go to sleep, I'll give you this. The "outlier" argument makes absolutely 0 sense, since it's based on taking feats from low/mid-tiers & stupid low-ends into consideration, something which you obviously shouldn't do.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

So it's a matter of show and tell and all we need to do is show more proof of the extent of warping in the game?
 
Freeman, neither DMC 1 nor DMC 2 have feats on a similar scale. Please, stop bringing it up. As I have addressed time and again, neither Mundus' claimed feats nor anything in the novel is of a universal scale. I have no idea why you keep bringing it back up when the thread has moved past using them. You cannot use debunked feats to try and defend the still-standing feat.

And yes, while we do have a line, it is from a strategy guide that is 90% gameplay information and guides on how to progress through the game, beat bosses, do puzzles, etc, and which wasn't written by Capcom nor the game's writers.
 
Once again, I did read that one post linked beforehand, and it's exactly what I was talking about when I said it is not relevant to anything about Argosax. The only line there that talks about the subject we're discussing is this:

> That nearly every single time the Human and Demon Worlds have been connected was through portals, which most often require huge amounts of preparation to either construct or seal, and that a lot of the supposed claims come from taking vague statements from characters or guides at face value and not considering them further.

None of this is relevant to Argosax in the slightest, once again. I thought we'd put this part to rest and stopped trying to use Mundus as any sort of example. Argosax did not open any portals to accomplish his feat. Literally the only portal that is opened is at the very end of the game, when Arius uses it to unseal Argosax, while the Demon World and the Human World's fusion takes place throughout the entire campaign and traces back to the beginning of Mission 8, and its effects can be seen most notably on Mission 14. All of this is still at least five missions before Arius even attempts to open such a portal.

There is no solid basis to dismiss Argosax's feat as planetary. Without double standards and asking the producers to literally show a dimensional shot of the two universes merging, all we could use to substantiate it is the skybox of the game, and statements confirming that the entire universe is being affected. We have both of those things, with a visibly distorted sky, and a statement telling us that our whole dimension will be affected.

There is exactly zero conclusive basis to say it's only planetary, while there is conclusive basis to say it's universal, in the form of both how it is worded in-game, and an outright confirmation of it being universal by the guidebook of the game.

Thus I rest my case still.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Before I go to sleep, I'll give you this. The "outlier" argument makes absolutely 0 sense, since it's based on taking feats from low/mid-tiers & stupid low-ends into consideration, something which you obviously shouldn't do.
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Of course we should. It's how we determined what outliers are in the first place. That we become so lenient with outliers on this site that it is as if they don't exist isn't a virtue, it's a vice that we need to rise above.

@Dienomite

Goes back to what I said. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidece". The higher you go up on the Tiering System, the more proof is required to make an upgrade fly. This is how it ideally should be. This is why it is so hard for verses to become High-End Tier 1, specially based on dimensions things (Which btw, are going RIP). Likewise, getting a verse that is currently on the low-end Tier 6 to 3-A, or even 2-C as some have suggested, based on a single feat that we don't even see in the game, but rather get informed through a few lines of dialogue and also a third party guidebook, is extremely dubious and shaky. We need far more than just that to make an upgrade of this magnitude.
 
And the claim that Argosax is the only 3-A feat is something I am wanting to challenge, as soon as we conclude the discussion on him.
 
If we're going to play the game of nothing fitting arbitrary, ad hoc definitons of "extraordinary" that you seem to think aren't even being used by the wiki (hence your disagreeing with Tier 2 God of War, which we decided to pass anyway due to the evidence), I want extraordinary evidence to support a refutation that an interpretation based on multiple feats of implied universal sscale and the existence of characters who can scale or drain power to get upgrades (hence increased consistency in plots without direct feats of such a scale) is false.

- That there is a gulf in power isn't objective refutation. There are plenty of other verses where the fodder/minor bosses are far weaker than the top tiers. And DMC characters stomp bosses in cutscenes most of the time in cutscenes, anyway.
- That characters aren't often shown blowing up buildings or planets isn't objective refutation. We have scaling for that.
- That there is a fringe possibility that can be applied to any individual plot point (that more likely supports the OP's interpretation in a more harmonious fashion) isn't objective refutation.
 
It's not that fodder don't do good feats, it's that the God Tiers don't do them either. Everyone is absolutely not on the proposed given levels here.

And again, one more time Freeman, I respect you as a person and hopefully as a friend so I ask you to stop referring to my points as "arbitrary, ad hoc definition".
 
>Of course we should. It's how we determined what outliers are in the first place. That we become so lenient with outliers on this site that it is as if they don't exist isn't a virtue, it's a vice that we need to rise above.

Excuse me, but I do not recall RWBY's 5-A feat being deemed an outlier, when the verse's other feats are in Tier 8/7 yield. And even then, this is still bull.
 
@Matt -- I posit that it is probable and self-evident that the feats done by Mundus/Void Mundus/Argosax are of universal scale, and that other adversaries have scaling in the form of statements or power-draining feats to increase consistency across the board.

I will take care here, so let me state that one's epistemology/methodology can be totally off and not have any impact on their moral character. If I thought you were a thug or something, I wouldn't bother, because this topic doesn't really matter and I wouldn't be having fun from challenging myself. You're plenty fine in your approach in your other work, obviously. I just hazard this this situation requres an approach more unorthodox digging up than blatant exposition and such.

But maybe now is a good time to just take a vote and shake hands afterward. No Joker joy-buzzers!
 
Those characters are literal Creator Gods that are for the intents and purposes o the story all-powerful. While the likes of Argosax and Mundus, while indeed far more powerful than the majority of characters, aren't. They are still challenged, they are still rivalled, beaten and surpassed. And looking at the feats of their peers it's nothing like the claimed Universal Scale.

Odin from the Marvel Cinematic Universe has two High 4-C feats. He is a "God-Tier", you could say, just look at all the stuff attributed to him, how he's viewed as a legend, and how effortlessly he defeats Thor in the first movie despite being way past his prime.

... And yet, they are undoubtedly outliers because they far outpace anything performerd by his peers and superiors in the verse proper.
 
> Of course we should. It's how we determined what outliers are in the first place. That we become so lenient with outliers on this site that it is as if they don't exist isn't a virtue, it's a vice that we need to rise above.

The fact that we have actually attempted to use feats performed by fodder-tiers and mooks as solid arguments for an outlier is most definitely the vicious part. This is absolutely no different than trying to judge Bowser based off of feats performed by mini-boss enemies that Mario faces, trying to judge Magolor or Dark Mind based off of high-level fodder that are under their command, or, for an even closer example, trying to use feats performed by Minor Gods on Riordanverse in order to judge the power of the Higher Olympians and Titans.

By definition, God-Tiers can not have outliers in the normal sense (taking every feat in the verse to try to apply to them). While a God-Tier can definitely have an outlier if other God-Tiers show lower feats consistently, all you have done here so far is use tier 8 or tier 7 feats from pretty much fodder mid-tiers to judge. That is not even close to a sensible judgement.
 
Mario being Tier 4 / 3 is absolute wank, though, imo. And for the record the person I would say is the highest Mario Supporter on this wiki agrees with me.
 
So just to get this straight, have we FINALLY dropped the "those feats are too much higher than the rest" point? Matt, for the sake of semplicity, could you summerize all your counterpoints so that they can be addressed properly? I advise the upgrade side do the same, so that we can stop with the pointless circular arguments. Oh and btw i am for the upgrade, write that down if you wish
 
@Matt -- Before we go on, lemme know that you saw my post directly above yours that began with "Those characters are literal Creator Gods..." Just want to make you saw that and weren't hurt.

We should prolly take a vote; once we're sure we've all stated our stances in as clear fashion as possible. The only way we can go any further is to change the method of our epistemology, and I don't see that happening. Especially since the one-man opposition is taking undetailed and probably irrelevant stances contrary to precedent in the hopes of making himself a guru for our interpretations.
 
Follow Doctor Freeman said:
@Matt -- Before we go on, lemme know that you saw my post directly above yours that began with "Those characters are literal Creator Gods..." Just want to make you saw that and weren't hurt.
We should prolly take a vote; once we're sure we've all stated our stances in as clear fashion as possible. The only way we can go any further is to change the method of our epistemology, and I don't see that happening. Especially since the one-man opposition is taking undetailed and probably irrelevant stances contrary to precedent to support making himself a guru for our interpretations.
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Man, i think the supporting side is completely trumping the opposing side in terms of vote, it's like 20 to 4, i think Rebuble kept a list
 
That is irrelevant though, as even if you downgraded them to planetary or less, the point would be the same, considering fodder enemis in Mario are literally tier 9/tier 8 with astronomically few exceptions. That'd be no different to our common sense.

Not only that, Mario isn't the only example. How about, as I said when I edited that post, using feats performed by fodder on Kirby in order to judge the likes of Magolor or Dark Mind? Or, an even better example, trying to use Tier 7 feats performed by the Demigods and Minor Gods on the Riordanverse to judge the Olympians and Titans, who aren't even on the same spectrum of "God-Tier" as Argosax and Mundus are comparison to their mooks and to the "minor demons" in his verse.
 
Funny you mention Magolor because nobody in Kirby scales to him despite him being defeated, because it's an Outlier. You are asking for favouritism treatment for DMC.
 
@Matt -- "(or Dark Mind)"

And we have more than just one guy doing feats of probably universal scale. And we have scaling statements + power draining feats. And you're acalling out a guy for disagreeing with precedent (even though that isn't necessarily what he's doing) while you disagree with Mario precedent in a less effective manner.
 
Every single other "Probably universal" feat is either proven to be completely fake, very much unusable, or too vague to even be considered. There is a reason Argosax is the main discussion point for three threads, because everything else is kinda nonsense.
 
So other verses that have god tiers at levels way higher then everyone else in their respective series based on 1 feat are fine,but two god tiers of DMC arent because?...thats simply favoritism
 
I'd argue that if there are contradictions, it's not fine in any case.

Also could people kindly wait on this thread since I'm going to be AFK for some hours? And I won't be able to reply. I'd hate for I to be steamrolled by people.
 
Would it be okay to talk which end can be accepted of High 6A or 5B if 3A doesn't go?
 
@Matthew Schroeder

When Arius gathers all the arcanas (including the fake coin) to unseal Argosax he still had to wait for the moon to eclipse the Sun in order to unseal Argosax aka open the portal the demon world.But the warping was happening without a portal to the demon world as shown here .This proves no portal was needed for the warping and that even a broken ritual and improper timing didn't stop the island from being warped.
 
> Those characters are literal Creator Gods that are for the intents and purposes o the story all-powerful. While the likes of Argosax and Mundus, while indeed far more powerful than the majority of characters, aren't. They are still challenged, they are still rivalled, beaten and surpassed.

This claim is also entirely false, and I am honestly surprised that you're saying this, especially with DMC5 being released.

Argosax and Mundus are only rivalled by Dante himself. Mundus himself needed a ton of prep-time and a specific transformation to be challenged by Dante, while Argosax's entire defeat was surrounded by a lot of PIS on the part of the developers due to Dante's lack of preparation to fight him. The entire lore paints those characters as literal Gods in the verse, absurdly above anyone else, to such a point that those who attempt to take even an infinitesimal fraction of their power are driven insane with how much it is, as is the case of Arkham and Allan Lowell attempting to obtain some of Sparda's power for themselves, and how

DMC5 has only further established how insane being anywhere near the level of a Demon King is, with Mundus needing to eat a fruit from a sacred tree, a fruit that never appeared again in the verse for thousands of years, in order to rise to his position and dethrone the King before him, and with him being the god responsible for crafting the events of the whole series.

And Argosax as soon as he was established was already stated to have literally come out of nowhere and risen to his position, forcibly dethroning Berial and demolishing everything on his path, subduing every demon on the Underworld and being worshipped by other Demons and humans due to his power and dignity.

They fit the label of a God-tier much better than some of the literal Gods of other mythological verses. They are definitely all-powerful beings that can't be challenged.
 
@Matt -- Yeah, we can break. Guys, remember that people have finals this time of year; that's why I wanted to wait till summer for this, but alas. Someone can go ahead with votes now if they want. Not counting neutral guys or supporters or objectors alike from other threads, I saw:

Support: Freeman, Rebuble, Meshifuari Arimota, Dienomite22, Killah. Paradox, Twelias, Sparda 2000, BlackDarkness, Schnee One (I think)

Against: Matt (there's more, of course, but not much here yet)

Feel free to chip in, other objectors; don't leave Matt hanging. And give him more than "reasons above" and all that. Give the man a hand. Regardless of how we continue, just show respect and shake hands regardless of result. No Joker-buzzers or Assassin's Creed wristblade or that wrist-gun-thing from Taxi Driver, etc.
 
Just a quick mention that I think that Matthew seems to make sense in the posts above, and that I agree with Dragonmasterxyz that you all need to make a continuous effort to be respectful to each other. Matthew has actually done so, at least from what I saw in this thread.

I will now close this again.
 
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