Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

[PrettyFearMachine]

I disagree with both High 6-A and 5-B. The feat in question is nothing like these, and extremely low-balling it for the sake of "consistency" is simply inaccurate.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

At this point we are waiting for Matt's response in order to continue. If push comes to shove however, he will have to make it once the thread ends.

 

[Twellas]

I honestly really can't see why Argosax's feat should be considered planetary, it is clearly stated that he was going to affect the entire dimension

 

[Dienomite22]

It does indeed feel like a massive low-ball just for the sake of consistency and it doesn't make sense logically within what was shown via lore,statements and the game.

 

[Sera_EX]

I really don't like the whole "feat higher than other feats in the series" argument. It's so fallacious it's almost as bad as the AOE argument. That doesn't mean I agree with the revisions either, but I definitely need to address the misuse of the word "outlier" again at some point.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While we wait for Matt, what is your opinion Sera?

 

[Twellas]

Oh and btw, Rebuble, could you please post the list of people for and against the upgrade thank you

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragonmasterxyz

Thank you for trying to keep this discussion in order. I do not have enough free time to do so myself. My apologies.

 

[Sera_EX]

There's enough material for me to lean towards agreement but there's contextual issues preventing me from doing so (similar to 2-C Persona, but that's another story). I just really don't like how it's being dismissed as an outlier. I'd prefer "not enough context" over "it can't be that high because the verse never showed anything close to that high". I can name plenty of verses like that and they go unchallenged feat-wise.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Oh and btw, Rebuble, could you please post the list of people for and against the upgrade thank you

It's pretty much the same, although I'm not sure if I should count some people, as they didn't specify why they agree/disagree.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

By the way, isn't Argosax's death undoing the merger yet another feat on that level from his part, separate from the merging itself?

By the finale of the game, or arguably even Mission 16, it is made explicitly clear that the Demon World and the Human World are already merged, as the mission starts right off the bat by noting how the chãos outside has multiplied while Dante searches for Arius. So Argosax's death undoing the merger and reverting things back to how they were prior to his revival would be another 3-A feat, no?

 

[Dienomite22]

That's if the merging is accepted as 3-A.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

There is zero reason for it not to be 3-A - it's either 3-A or dismissing the feat (which people have attempted all throughout the 3 threads), since 5-B requires changing what was stated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll have to write a really detailed post.

 

[Sera_EX]

Please do take your time. No one should be rushing this, seriously.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Dante's Profile if Argosax's feat is accepted as "High 6-A, possibly 5-B"

Dante's Profile if Argosax's feat is accepted as "3-A"

 

[Sparda_20000000]

I think relativistic would apply to their movement speed as well argosax couldn't keep track of Dante at the end of their fight

 

[Kepekley23]

Ironically, his AP justification for his DMC2 key doesn't mention beating Argosax.

 

[Sparda_20000000]

Void mundus is stronger than argosax

 

[Dienomite22]

If Void Mundus didn't exist then it Argosax would be there.

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, beating Void Mundus is more impressive, but it's a bit ironic still that the guy with the feat doesn't get any love. Lol.

 

[Dienomite22]

That's pretty damn hilarious Kep.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Argosax appears in his durability lol

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

btw Kepe, seeing as you're here, what's you position on the DMC tiering?

 

[Dziga]

There's no reason why both can't be used as justification. It couldn't possibly be worse than this.

 

[Kepekley23]

btw Kepe, seeing as you're here, what's you position on the DMC tiering?

I kinda deleted my previous position, here is a link to a screenshot because I'm lazy: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559828371829214745/5192918374625172/r1c4R0lId0n0tcl1c4

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I kinda deleted my previous position, here is a link to a screenshot because I'm lazy: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559828371829214745/5192918374625172/r1c4R0lId0n0tcl1c4

I agree.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think Kepe makes sense.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I also agree with Kepe

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

There's no reason why both can't be used as justification. It couldn't possibly be worse than this.

Also, i gotta agree with this. Can't we do a "High 6-A, likely 5-B, possibly 3-A" or something similar?

 

[Dziga]

Kepe seems to make the most sense here. 1-A DMC it is.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Also, i gotta agree with this. Can't we do a "High 6-A, likely 5-B, possibly 3-A" or something similar?

Jokes aside, both High 6-A and 5-B are completely unfounded. The feat in question is either 3-A, or didn't happen, which the opposition was arguing for in the previous thread.

 

[DarkGrath]

I kinda deleted my previous position, here is a link to a screenshot because I'm lazy: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559828371829214745/5192918374625172/r1c4R0lId0n0tcl1c4

This is revolutionary. I think we can have a synonymous vote on this one.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

@Reb

Ah, alright. I kind of lost track of what the arguments were last time.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The feat clearly happened, it's a safe High 6-A to 5-B feat to say at least

The only thing that directly points to be 3-A is the dimension statement, the others, if we take World = Planet, which is normal, then it's Tier 6/5

I'm not saying that I agree with one more than the other, I'm neutral about the tier for this feat, but I 100% agree that it happened

 

[DarkGrath]

I agree with Reb here. Another thing to add to the point is the reference for scale. The entirety of DMC2, in both gameplay and cutscenes, takes place from the perspectives of Dante and Lucia. Regardless of how powerful either of them are, they clearly only have the height, stature, and size of a normal human. Arguing that the feat should be considered High 6-A or 5-B because we don't see anything past that is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous. Regardless of whether the distortion only affected the planet, or if it affected the universe, it would appear exactly the same because we don't see anything past the planet. As such, with feats like this, Dante and Lucia's perspective is simply not a reliable ruler for scale. We have various sources that do provide a genuine sense of scale, and nothing that contradicts them, so they should be used.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

The feat clearly happened, it's a safe High 6-A to 5-B at least

And nothing suggests that either of these ratings are accurate. Seriously, that's the exact same thing as when people were trying to low-ball Mundus's feat to 5-C just to make it fall in line with High 6-A.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

He was warping the surface (at least) of the planet without a clear timeframe, that's High 6-A (maybe 183 pt), possibly 5-B if we consider that he was completely nerfed while doing it and that he could be fusing the whole Planet, not only the surface

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

He was warping the surface (at least) of the planet without a clear timeframe, that's High 6-A, possibly 5-B if we consider that he was completely nerfed while doing it and that he could be fusing the whole Planet, not only the surface

Except both the guide book and the game state that the feat is universal in scale.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, again, if it will be Tier 6/5 or Tier 3, it's up to you guys, I'm fine with both