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Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

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@Schnee

I think that High 6-A or 5-B Argosax is acceptable and makes for a consistent power progression. 3-A is absolutely ludicrous.

@Dienomite

I mentioned it because context matters. Much like Mundus' unification of the Demon World and Human World involved their connection through a portal and Earth's subsequent invasion, the unification of Argosax cannot be assumed to be literal universal merging, which I see no evidence for it being.
 
@Matt

Well, considering World = Planet,

Just as Reb said, "the world merging progressed each time the seal on Argosax was weakened, with each Arcana obtained. It's safe to say that were Argosax's power to be fully unleashed, the Underworld would completely consume our world, so I personally think 3-A is justified."

If we assume World = Planet, Argosax would be fusing them on a "High 6-A, possibly 5-B" scale, if i'm not mistaken

Which is also covered by those statements

- "She is certain that his (Dante's) skill is necessary to stop the evil (Argosax) and prevent the Demon World from consuming our dimension."

- "The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form."

I agree with Argosax's feat, being Tier 3 or Tier 6/5, but the later certainly is safer and closer to what we see on the series
 
I have insulted no intellect, -- I'd say we're in a pretty smart room right now, which is how I'm getting the mental exercise I showed up for -- but I must observe faulty methodology when employed. We probably have all the facts on the table; it is now a matter of how one interprets them in terms of consistency and reliablity, avoiding arbitrary interpretations in doing so. Coming up with possibilities (which =/= probability, especially when our more internally harmonious explanation is available) of alternative interpretations of each individual point makes for a less consistent reading of the story that a reading that uses all the facts instead of picking and choosing, and is therefore less logical than a reading that uses synergy instead of possible (yet imporbable and unilluminating) interpretations of discardation across every individual point seperately.

For all the talk of "hard facts," I have not yet seen any hard facts discarding points in the OP. Only "possible" alternative interpretations that we have no reason to believe are more probable than the interpretations supporting the OP.
 
Btw, this is a legitimate question: Does anyone know the status of the DMC5 fruit creating a pocket dimension? Or was it already concluded it was an illusion?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Dienomite

I mentioned it because context matters. Much like Mundus' unification of the Demon World and Human World involved their connection through a portal and Earth's subsequent invasion, the unification of Argosax cannot be assumed to be literal universal merging, which I see no evidence for it being.
Click to expand...
But that could very well just be Mundus's wish, just an invasion and conquer, the DMC2 novel even has Void Mundus (which is just Mundus but didn't get his ass kicked) still living in the Demon world while sending minions and what not to the Human world.Mundus seems to just want to invade the human world and this goes along with his looks and demeanor with wanting to be portrayed as God, while a chaotic and bestial and brutish Argosax being a literal corrupted amalgamation of powerful demons and also called "The Despaired Embodied" not caring about portals and wanting the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL universe back where there was nothing but chaos and darkness makes sense.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Btw, this is a legitimate question: Does anyone know the status of the DMC5 fruit creating a pocket dimension? Or was it already concluded it was an illusion?
Click to expand...
Still waiting on a translation sadly, If you know someone who audibly understands Japanese and would be willing to help with that please to tell me.
 
Oh, snap, I refreshed the page and saw similar-looking posts by Dienomite like before each time I refresehed, so I thought there was just silence for a while. My bad! I did address Matt's bit about Mundus and the 20 years completely, but about the logic:

You are using ad hoc definintons of "extraordinary." I'd say that 1 having multiple likely cosmic feats, similar stuff in 2's novel, more stuff in 2, and literally every other story having guys directly stated to scale is pretty extraordinary, especially from a small series focusing more on gameplay than plot or setpieces. Why should we adopt you as our guru for interpretation here?

And I don't start from a conclusion. In the last thread I was in a position closer to yours, but I changed when I decided to look at the evidence and use laws of logic instead of molding my interpreataions around assumptions and appeals to authority/consensus. Although I don't think the consesneus part is helping you at this point.


EDIT: Oh, "struggling with less": Castlevania, SMT, most RPGs, most Nintendo series,. et cetera for on and on have bosses and normal foes with far lesser showing than the big wigs. And all those games have far more entries than DMC, and several have more focus on plot and setpieces.
 
Incorrect, actually. Castlevania, SMT, and Metroid have far better feats than Devil May Cry and it's bizarre that you bring them up.

"Most RPGs" is a meaningless statement since nobody in the world has played most RPGs. You're just going out of personal experience.

And again you simply repeat the assessment that there are consistent cosmic feats, without showing them or explaining while they're valid, while calling me reasonable questioning of them "ad hoc" and other words which you are certainly misussing.

I asked you before, and I ask you again, please stop painting me as intellectually dishonest by strawmaning my every point. It's tiresome.
 
The human world has been outright stated to be a universe

When the human world and demon world separated it outright said the universe was split in two

The world was born from darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals. The two worlds existed together for what seemed like an eternity. But one day the lord of the dark world said... "These realms were once united, so why not rule them as one?" From that era forward, the dark fought to control the light, and the light struggled to defy the dark.
 
Incorrect assessment of my case: I'm saying that those games also have bosses and enemies and such that aren't shown to do anything near as stong as the top tiers, either. you even mentioned in the High 6-A downgrade thread that this verse has a huge gulf in power by nature. Also, Arkham went insane and turned into a blob because he couldn't handle his boost, so that ssays plenty about the gulf right there. You're not proving that your interpretations of these events in the OP are more likely than ours.


"Unless given hard evidence not to, -- the mere possibility of alternative interpretations of points that can also support the OP's interpretation is not hard evidence -- let's look for the explanation that best fits all these points and plot events with a minimal amount of subjective interpretation and ad hoc definitions of reliablilty.That happens to be the OP."

Vs.

"There's a possibility that this thing could mean something different, even though there's also a (greater and more consistent) possibilty it could support the OP's interpretation. Let's apply that fringe possibiliy of alternative explanations, regardless of how they fails to create insight in other points or meet the standards of explanation as well as the OP's interpretation does, as much as we can, and then dismiss the more apparent events as PIS, using our own suppositions as a standard for consistency."
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Dante Demon Killah
It is definitely possible to get High 6-A or maybe 5-B from Argosax' feat. It is the highest possible interpretation of the event that I deem reasonable and consistent.

Mortal Kombat likewise has realms which together make up the entire universe, but the merging of the realms (Which is shown on-screen to be an actual, literally merging) only affects the planets with life on the realms, fusing both into one larger thing. As such, despite having "cross-universal merging", there is no reason to rank the characters as 3-A.
Click to expand...
As I have mentioned in the past, mentioning Mortal Kombat is a false equivalence. In Argosax's case, his feat is outright specified to affect our entire dimension, meaning the entire universe is affected as opposed to merely the planet. I am in complete and utter opposition to High 6-A or 5-B.
 
No it doesn't specify it at all, Paradox. Not in the slightest, and visuals don't support it either.

Also you can't simultaneously use examples when it's convenient to you and ignore examples when they aren't.
 
@Freeman

I'm going to start ignoring you since I sincerely have no idea what you're talking about now. It seems that you perceive entirely different posts than the ones I send.
 
> And finally, Trish outright says that Mundus revived 20 years before Devil May Cry 1 began, and that since them he's been preparing for the invasion of Earth and the opening of the portal.

Mundus was still almost entirely sealed throughout all those 20 years, as Trish herself tells the viewer if you take the entire quote instead of just the portion where she states he's resurrected.

This fact is not only informed to the player, but shown in plain sight. Mundus only gets unsealed and recovers his full capabilities near the end of the game, when he emerges out of the vault to fight Dante. Before this, all he could do was sending scouts and mooks, and projections to communicate. So it's more as if Mundus got unsealed and casually opened said gate.
 
It's hard to discuss with someone who, although claims to want to make the discussion as peaceful and logical as possible, does nothing but strawman his opponent on every post.
 
> No it doesn't specify it at all, Paradox. Not in the slightest, and visuals don't support it either.

Yes, it does. It is in the OP. We are outright told that our entire dimension will be consumed. Saying that it doesn't isn't an answer to the scan.

> Also you can't simultaneously use examples when it's convenient to you and ignore examples when they aren't.

It's more that your examples have simply nothing to do with Devil May Cry's situation and are false equivalences, not that I'm ignoring them.
 
Okay, like this whole DMC debacle has been nothing but toxic, for both sides.

For those for the upgrade, there has been constant dismissive claims, trying to paint someone as a villain, jabs, etc. Even those who try to seem "respectful" it is obvious what you all are saying. Your criticisms of, too be blunt...Matt's character and arguments have been less criticism and more personal jabs. It comes across a legitimatizing and demeaning. To the point it's like, "no matter what you say, it means nothing Matthew". You can hide it with as nice of words as possible, but as I said above, it's quite obvious what you mean. It's ridiculous. It seems that anyone who disagrees with a point or the upgrade is automatically seen as some enemy of the franchise and are met with aggression.

To those against, the constant one sentence of paragraph responses, the snark, the jabs, the attacks, etc are just as bad as the supporters. No matter how blunt you feel like you need to be, being respectful makes things go more smoothly and shit talk gets nowhere. No matter how thin skinned you think they are, being a "tough guy" (for lack of a better term) will get you nowhere and as this whole revision proves. Not to mention comments do in fact hide pretty sneaky jabs and meanings behind your comments, just like the supporters, so nearly everything I said to them, applies to the opposition as well.

If we truly care about having a discussion and finishing this revision as Toshiohex started it, then this shit needs to stop. You all want a civil discussion, but you all are failing horribly. Each time I've made a post, you all say "I agree", but two comments late, proceed to continue on like nothing was said. This revision has done nothing but spread hate and toxicity, something I am sure the DMC community here does not want correct? I am sure those against the upgrades don't want to be seen as a bunch of DMC haters correct? Assuming those who vehemently disagree with DMC as people who hate DMC is ridiculous. Hating DMC because you vehemently disagree with the upgrades is ridiculous. DMC should not be nearing DBZ/DBS/DBGT levels of controversy. But it has. How do you feel about that?

Simply put, chill out, debate normally, keep the sneak jabs at bay, keep the snark at back, keep the demeaning and dismissive attitudes at bay, keep the aggression at bay, keep the laziness at bay and keep the toxicity at bay.
 
Great, now people have begun to throw shade at me again. I am trying my best to make this thread peaceful and reasonable.

@Paradox

I already know this, my points were specifically addressing everything you just brought up. You haven't brought anything new to the table and just succeeded in making it circular again.
 
Sorry, but I'm gonna stop you right there. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing went wrong with this thread so far. The arguments are relatively civil on both sides.

If people calling each other's arguments false equivalencies, strawmans, etc. is toxic, you probably should grow a thicker skin.
 
Rebuble, literally look at the post right above yours. Everything "My Username was taken" has done here is throw lumber into the fire.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Rebuble, literally look at the post right above yours. Everything "My Username was taken" has done here is throw lumber into the fire.
Click to expand...
He was reported for spam on the recent Rule Violations thread IIRC. "My Username was taken" is a nothing more than a sock puppet IMHO.
 
> I already know this, my points were specifically addressing everything you just brought up. You haven't brought anything new to the table and just succeeded in making it circular again.

No, you have not brought anything new up. All you have said so far is that the visuals in the game only show towns and cities getting distorted as if that were somehow proof that only the planet was affected, when we do have confirmation of the entire dimension being affected. What is making the debate circular is saying you have addressed it without linking any scans or any posts where you have done it.

I also have to point out that I made a big post in the last thread which went completely ignored by you, too. May I link it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Rebuble, literally look at the post right above yours. Everything "My Username was taken" has done here is throw lumber into the fire.
Click to expand...
He's the only one who's doing that here, doesn't mean that everyone else here is doing that. His behaviour is uncalled for though.

Btw, where have you been when Konaguna started stirring shit up on the previous thread, calling the opposite side's arguments shit and a pathetic attempt at an upgrade? Oh wait, he was on your side, so it's okay I guess.

I'm sorry for coming off as hostile, but I really can't put it other way.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

Paradox arguement (in this instance) is that the MK comparison is flawed and shouldn't be used as an example because in the case with Argosax it is explicitly stated to be consuming our entire dimension aka universe and you said in your own words "No it doesn't specify it at all, Paradox. Not in the slightest, and visuals don't support it either." and then Paradox posted the scan from the guidebook with exact quotes being "prevent the demon world from consuming our dimension" , that proves Paradox's point and that he's correct does it not?
 
Can people stop with the blatant trolling? Or once again we'll have a thread being closed because it devolves into absolutely nothing.
 
I'll just remain neutral for the time being and keep watching where this goes.
 
Paradox arguement is that the MK comparison is flawed and shouldn't be used as an example because in this case with Argosax it is explicitly stated to be consuming our entire dimension aka universe and you said in your own words "No it doesn't specify it at all, Paradox. Not in the slightest, and visuals don't support it either." and then Paradox posted the scan from the guidebook with exact quotes being "prevent the demon world from consuming our dimension" , that proves Paradox's point and that he's correct does it not?

I know what the guidebook says. I addressed that very claim in a multiple paragraph post ahead, deconstructing it and arguing why it is likely to not mean universal consumptio.

But then the only answer to that was "It was stated that it was!" / "False equivalency!" / "Ad Hoc Probability Fallacy Buzz Word!"

It's like everytime I try to make an argument, people respond with the exact same thing I'm making an argument against. I know what the Guidebook states, which is why I wrote ahead to argue why it's not correct. Which has yet, just like in the past thread, received any solid answer.

If you want to debate, please try to address the arguments with something new.
 
Reb

I am going to have stop you right there and say read my reply again in full to know that I am not talking about just one thread. Thid is missing the point and immediately being defensive. This had nothing to do with any of what you just said. Literally nothing. Also "you need to get thicker skin". Way to prove my point. Note how I said this revision, not this thread.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

Can you quote your explanation please?Don't want to end up choosing the wrong one to respond to.
 
I shall restate what we want from the opposition (that includes people other than Matt btw). Please give us a reason why your interpretations are more likely than our interpreting the feats at face value. A cold, hard reason without any ad hoc definitions of "reliability."

- That there is a gulf in power isn't objective refutation. There are plenty of other verses where the fodder/minor bosses are far weaker than the top tiers. And DMC characters stomp bosses in cutscenes most of the time in cutscenes, anyway.
- That characters aren't often shown blowing up buildings or planets isn't objective refutation.
- That there is a fringe possibility that can be applied to any individual plot point (that more likely supports the OP's interpretation in a more harmonious fashion) isn't objective refutation.

I have no interest at throwing shade at anyone, much less one of the most thorough and clever contributors to the wiki, who's proven a fun challenge to pin down here. It is just a difficult process to discuss methodology, because every part of a case built on unreliable methodology is affected by it. You can make a gorgeous house, but it's no good if the foundation is unstable. I enjoy untangling knots, but if people would prefer to defer to an authority figure's interpretation instead of the evidence and the logical rules of explanation, I'll just back off and say, "Well, agree to disagree." I just like having a chance to exersize rules of logic with scenarios where my worldview isn't on the line, but it seems that might just might be the stakes for some of us on both sides. It's just capecrap at the end of the day.

Let's see about those objective, erm, objections, then maybe just take a vote from there and accept the results gracefully.
 
You have not posted anything against the guidebook statement other than saying we shouldn't believe it above. Literally all you have posted above that I can see myself is stuff about Mundus and portals which is irrelevant to Argosax and clearly not the same thing, just like in the past two threads.

You're also once again failing to post links to those supposed rebuttals so I can reply to them. I constantly make this request, but it always falls on deaf ears.
 
It's a lot of posts honestly and my main post is still on the previous thread but I went in-depth why I think that my analysis makes more sense here.

Basically, the only thing going for "the Demon World is consuming our dimension" is a quote from the strategy guidebook made by Brady Games, and in the game itself we don't see such a degree of warping or consumption to indicate that every cubic centimeter of the universe is being affected. Likewise, we only have brief lines from Arius about what he intends to do and what Argosax is doing. As the saying goes, an image is worth a thousand words, and I prefer to look at what is shown and look at the series as a whole also to get a good idea over what is happening.
 
Look, I get it. You want this discussion to be peaceful. So do I. But listen, nobody (aside from one guy and that one reply I made) so far has attacked anything other than other people's arguments. You already told people to keep it civil. And they did. No need to make a several paragraph reply.

But anyway, we're taking up space and should probably stop.
 
I disagree that people have done nothing but attack arguments. There are plenty of times during these revisions where I have felt personally attacked or strawmaned or ridiculed and I have specifically asked for it to stop.
 
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