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Universal DMC: Dante's Awakening

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PrettyFearMachine

PrettyFearMachine

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Continued from here.

Established subjects

  • Argosax's feat's legitimacy.
Arius: Now, give me the Arcanas. With them, my power will be complete and I will become like the immortal, Argosax!... The world is already warped. Everything that belongs to the devils will eventually revert to its original form.

If you don't know what "original form" means, the beginning of DMC3 manga explains it.

The world was born of darkness. Unending darkness, a crucible of chaos...

DMC2 guide book also says this...

"She is certain that his (Dante's) skill is necessary to stop the evil (Argosax) and prevent the Demon World from consuming our dimension."

...and this, which prove that the Human World is, in fact, being consumed by the Demon World.

"The power of the demon world can warp the minds of men and stop the hands of time. In the time between seconds, reality is not what it seems. The dark forces can bend passages that once led to real destinations into circles of infinite confusion..."

"...The entire town has been warped by the approach of the demon world into a vicious infinite circle..."

Currently discussed topics

  • The legitimacy of Mundus's feat in Devil May Cry 1.
  • Scaling characters to Argosax's feat.
Those are the main ones, but you should feel free to bring other stuff up.

Mundus's feat
Shamelessly copy-pasted from Ogbunabali:

The only feat that is 3-A that's being discussed is the Mundus feat. And by process of elimination it's definitely creation.

  • It's not teleportation because this is teleportation, and even Munuds himself says that in the human world they are weaker, as well as the demon world not having a sky like that, means that it's not teleportation.
  • It's also not illusions because the fight can't physically happen in that space they were in, if you've played the game you would know what I mean here is a full fight you can watch it yourself if you haven't already, and not to mention the room they were in doesn't have a scratch on it when we see Dante in the aftermath, which again would be physically impossible if it was an illusion.
    • The sky rotating is also just a weird camera spin, not the area itself moving, which you can quite clearly see when Mundus flies up and the sky behind him isn't rotating at all.
    • There is also no "air burst" when he jumps, that's blatantly false. If someone sees an "air burst" there feel free to show me a scan of where, because I don't see anything.
    • As well as when he creates the dimension both him and Dante float in the air, unlike some people that have claimed they were standing feet flat which is just wrong.
Scaling from Argosax's feat
Follow Doctor Freeman proposed these 2 options:

  • Everyone who fought Argosax/is comparable to him should scale, from DMC2 Dante upwards. Sparda DT Dante fought Mundus with a 3-A feat & DMC2 Dante fought Argosax with a 3-A feat who is also equal to Mundus. Another thing worth pointing out is that Dante beats Void Mundus (who is stronger than the original one) in the DMC2 novel.
  • DMC2 Dante doesn't scale, since Argosax was defeated due to Plot-Induced Stupidity, since Dante hijacked the ritual. However, that is contradicted by Dante being Void Mundus in base. There's also no concrete proof that Argosax was not at his full power there.
 
My opinion hasn't really change so I'll just repost what I said in the previous thread.

Base on the OP the feats seems acceptable but I don't think 3-A is a safe tier since there's no detailed information on the different dimension being mentioned, so I think either 4-C or maybe 4-A would be fine since more information would be needed for 3-A IMO at least.

About the Outlier claim, just because one or two feats, done by people clearly above almost all of the rest of the characters, is beyond any other feat doesn't make it an outlier atomatically, Bloodborne goes from 9 or 8 normally, to 5-A for high tiers, to 4-C for top and god tiers so a feat that only scals to maybe 5 characters doesn't make it an outlier. More so when two of them, Sparda and Mundus, was stated to be stronger then all demons from the demon worlds so you will need more then just ' larger then any feat' to proof that it's an outlier.

Again I'm still nutreal on the feat i just wanted to state my opinion on it.
 
How much time did it took (or better, would have taken) Argosax to unite the two universes Actually worlds, but I'm not going to nitpick?
 
I still think this is a good explanation since it meets all the basic criteria; yet again I say: a good explanation is one that is relatively simple, universally applicable, well-sourced, internally consistent, and illuminatory of other facts while relying on as little subjective definitions ("This info is unreliable, this isn't meant to be taken at face value") as possible. Bringing up seventeen-odd fan theories to work around one solid theory based on apparent information and collaborative context alike is poor reasoning.

But maybe we should consider holding off on this before getting some more WoG from less controversial figures, since a blandly evident piece of explanation/exposition seems to be the only thing to convince the opposition, the well has been so poisoned.

@Triforce -- If I recall correctly, every level taking place after that plot point shows distortion, so it is headcanon to say it was taking place only in places we see.
 
With the full fight video, going to 2:50 it definetly doesn't seems like teleportation, at least not traditional teleportation. Its definetly not illusion since the battle field is way too large compared to the room they were just in, and it's definetly not still apart of earth since it goes from space to thunderstorm when they go up.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
How much time did it took (or better, would have taken) Argosax to unite the two universes Actually worlds, but I'm not going to nitpick?
Click to expand...
A couple hours, I think. But the thing is that the world merging progressed each time the seal on Argosax was weakened, with each Arcana obtained. It's safe to say that were Argosax's power to be fully unleashed, the Underworld would completely consume our world, so I personally think 3-A is justified.
 
A couple hours, I think. But the thing is that the world merging progressed each time the seal on Argosax was weakened, with each Arcana obtained. It's safe to say that were Argosax's power to be fully unleashed, the Underworld would completely consume our world, so I personally think 3-A is justified.

Last question, is it ever described how he was going to do it? Method is very important when describing feats like these.
 
@Triforce

Again, the worlds' merging was becoming more and more apparent every time the seal was weakened, so I guess he would do it passively with his power.
 
My opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. I see no reason that makes Mundus' feat legitimate rather than a very, very sketchy and very vague scene, and I believe that the proposed interpretation of Argosax' statements going on here is pretty bonkers.
 
What I'm seeing is that at best you can argue that the full extent of Argosax' warping was planetary seeing as it was distorting the towns and cities the game takes place in.

Which is significantly more in-line with what we see of the series, rather than to assume that said warping effect is simultaneously affecting every single cubic centimeter of the entire universe. Given that the series is entirely Earth-bound, with the demons being solely interested on Earth and the links between the Human World and the Demon World being all on Earth, I see no logic behind literal universal merging / warping.
 
@Triforce -- See literally the first section and its links. That answers all your questions. And possibility of downplaying interpretation =/= probablility, especially when it conflicts with feats like the DMC2 novel.

@Matt -- Feel free to offer more than an opinion based on subjective and ad hoc definiotons of reliability that go against visual information and consistent lore and scaling.
 
@Mat Thank you for letting us know of your opinion, we appriceate your honesty and we will make sure to remember it.
 
Somewhat ninja'd by Matt, but still. Saying the scale was planetary when termonology can refer to universal scale and we have feats of considerable cosmic scale in 1 and the 2 novel is poor reasoning. It is a scattershot of subjective theories instead of one consistent theory.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Which is significantly more in-line with what we see of the series, rather than to assume that said warping effect is simultaneously affecting every single cubic centimeter of the entire universe.
Click to expand...
"She is certain that his (Dante's) skill is necessary to stop the evil (Argosax) and prevent the Demon World from consuming our dimension."

It's literally in the OP.

God of War is also an earth-bound verse, but we all know what's with it.
 
I don't believe in Tier 2 God of War either so you're not winning any favors by bringing it up.

And that line is purely in the Guidebook, and even then is not literal. The Manga Opening also uses similarly fancy language to purely describe the Demon World invading Earth. Which has been used in both the previous threads and past attempts to justify universal merging being done by Mundus, when really all that happened was an invasion and conquest.

Likewise, this is what appears to be happening in Devil May Cry 2 with Argosax. Not a literal universal consumption. Context matters, we cannot simply take every line at face value.
 
Also, Freeman. I respect your opinion, but you don't have to dismiss all my posts as merely theories and ad-hoc personal beliefs. You say that there are very apparent cosmic level feats in 1, 2, and the novel, but I have yet to be reliably convinced of their existence.

Specially the novel proper, with people claiming that the Beastheads embody all of time simultaneously, that the Mundus Void was infinite and that Dante destroyed it, and that the Beastheads shook the entire planet, all of which turned out to not be correct.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
By the way, given that we're going in circles right now, I notified Azathoth about this thread.
Click to expand...
Nice pun with the OP. Unless it wasn't intentional.

EDIT: It wasn't. I am an idiot.
 
To reiterate, we're at a point where (I think) all the relevant links and whatnot are on the table; we just need to find an explanation that best fits them while being as simple, universally applicable, well-sourced, internally consistent, and illuminatory of other facts while relying on as little subjective definitions ("This info is unreliable, this isn't meant to be taken at face value") as possible.

The opposition can succeed employing the principle of explosion, which states that a contradiction can be formed to make any case, and that a case built on contradictions is inheriently false. So say us upgraders are using assumptions based on contradictions. Therefore, you must show how exactly there isn't so only an alternative explanation available, (possibility =/= probability) but rather how my case is more internally contradictive or less illuminating of other facts/lore. That would make an alternative explanation more probable. In my opinion, my explanation does not rely on imposing ad hoc/personal definitions of reliability to count things as PIS or such; if you have reason to believe my case internally inconsistent, let's move from there instead of hatching seventeen independent and unconnected theories for the nature of each of these feats. Maybe it is internally inconsistent and I'm not seeing it; then we can consult an alternative explanation instead of saying "One can possibly exist in the fringes of probablility, so the more probable explanation can't be taken."
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
What I'm seeing is that at best you can argue that the full extent of Argosax' warping was planetary seeing as it was distorting the towns and cities the game takes place in.

Which is significantly more in-line with what we see of the series, rather than to assume that said warping effect is simultaneously affecting every single cubic centimeter of the entire universe. Given that the series is entirely Earth-bound, with the demons being solely interested on Earth and the links between the Human World and the Demon World being all on Earth, I see no logic behind literal universal merging / warping.
Click to expand...
Trish stated that Human Blood is the source of demons powers, so it makes sense to focus on Earth, however, could be just talking about the Qliphoth

So Argosax's feat can be Tier 5 ?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't believe in Tier 2 God of War either so you're not winning any favors by bringing it up.
And that line is purely in the Guidebook, and even then is not literal. The Manga Opening also uses similarly fancy language to purely describe the Demon World invading Earth. Which has been used in both the previous threads and past attempts to justify universal merging being done by Mundus, when really all that happened was an invasion and conquest.
Click to expand...
This and this isn't talking about Mundus or a demonic invasion, that comes after the universe split.
 
Good points, Killah & Dienomite, but let's make sure both sides of the debate are on the same page as my last post's claims of what we need. That will let the opposition know what we want from them, and communication of goals is key.
 
Dante Demon Killah said:
Trish stated that Human Blood is the source of demons powers, so it makes sense to focus on Earth, however, could be just talking about the Qliphoth
Click to expand...
The Fruit is hyper condensed human blood that made the Qliphoth and demons eat it.
 
>The Manga Opening also uses similarly fancy language to purely describe the Demon World invading Earth.

And you are talking about that, why? I used it to explain Arius's statement, not to give you another feat.

Tell me at least one good reason to discredit guide books.

Also, stuff from DMC2 novel being false doesn't mean that what is presented here is false as well. That's textbook false generalization.
 
Freeman, can you please stop bringing up the supposed "Seventeen independent and unconnected theories". Not only is it unecessary, it also doesn't address any of my counterpoints, on top of being a huge strawman over what I'm arguing. Because what I'm doing is looking at the evidence face value and determining what is the most likely given context, the rest of the series, what happens on screen, similar scenes, and so on.

You are simply taking the statements at face-value and accepting the highest-possible interpretations of them. This is not a reasonable way of deduction, nor a correct application of Occam's Razor. It's practically the reverse.

To quote Carl Seagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and in claiming that a whole universe is being merged, you better damn have good evidence, because it is one of the most extraordinary claims you can make. Given how vague and brief the quotes are, how we don't see it happen on-screen (An image is worth a thousand words, so goes the saying. Also, Show vs Tell, feats matter more than statements), it is unreasonable to try and go by the interpretation that the support side is given.
 
I will change my vote to agree but I don't think 3-A should be use, in the end we lack true detailed information on the size of both worlds to make it 3-A. If enough votes lead to 3-A then sure but I think 4-C or 4-A would be safer to use.
 
@Dante Demon Killah

It is definitely possible to get High 6-A or maybe 5-B from Argosax' feat. It is the highest possible interpretation of the event that I deem reasonable and consistent.

Mortal Kombat likewise has realms which together make up the entire universe, but the merging of the realms (Which is shown on-screen to be an actual, literally merging) only affects the planets with life on the realms, fusing both into one larger thing. As such, despite having "cross-universal merging", there is no reason to rank the characters as 3-A.

@Rebuble

The reason I mention the manga is that no one statement in the franchise exists in a bubble outside of space and time. We have to look at the whole picture for a cohesive whole.
 
Dienomite22 said:
This and this isn't talking about Mundus or a demonic invasion, that comes after the universe split.
Click to expand...
It's a good thing I wasn't talking about this, but rather what came after, with the narration of Mundus deciding to invade the Human World. Which has also been used to argue that he can merge universes together (He can't, took him 20 years to open a portal).
 
Mat we get it, you don't agree with the proposed rating. You've already explained why you don't agree with it many times already so you don't need to keep repeating it many more times.
 
JBnnett, this is a discussion thread. There is a side that agrees and a side that disagrees. Given that I don't agree with any of the proposed feats in the OP here, and how I see them as both fallacious and vague, I will expose my opinion.

If people question my opinion, I will respond to these questionings. If people outright ignore my opinion or just try to walk past it and pretend it isn't there and that everyone agrees, I'll bring it up again. This is simply how it works, no harm intended. Telling those that disagree with you to essentially "shut up" won't work.
 
@Matt -- "Extraordinary" is a subjective term. That 2 + 2 = 4 is a pretty big claim since that applies to relationships between almost everything in the whole universe, and it's possible anyoone reading this is a brain in a jar imagining everything including laws of logic making sense, but we go with what is apparently true because there is no reason to doubt it.

Using Occam's Razor is saying: "All these feats are consistent because we see/read feats that are similar in nature (that similiarity being universal sclae) and there are means through which to scale all who need it. Misusing Occam's Razor is using convoluted possibilities (not probablilities that illuminate other plot points) to explain away each point individually, instead of seeing how they're all consistently connected.

Also, assuming you're right about it taking Mundus 20 years to open a portal, hax or lack thereof =/= hax or lack thereof in this case, Mundus could prolly use some time to recuprate after being defeated, and he wanted to lure Dante and kill him on unfamiliar turf, anyway.
 
@Matthew Schroeder Then why mention it if no one else was talking aboout it? Mundus using portals to invade only earth doesn't mean Argosax is using them.

Also it didn't take Mundus 20 years to open a portal, he was weakened after being unsealed and waited but he still was on Mallet Island, Before the Nightmare goes into this.
 
I will also say to refrain from trying to devalue anyone's points or to attempt to devalue/delegitimize/demonize/whatever, each other personally. That has happened throughout this revision and doesn't paint a good picture for DMC revisions as a whole.
 
@Freeman

There is literally a 100-something page PhD University Paper just to prove that 1 + 1 does is in fact equal to 2. So bringing up basic mathematics won't serve much good, as even in their case there can be far greater proof than just simple logic and common sense.

Likewise, this isn't a case of universal common sense and basic ideas that everyone learns in Pre-School. This is a highly specific and incredibly nerdy subject that no only attracts very few people, but also people with vastly diverging views on it. So yes, I do demand extraordinary evidence to prove the extraordinary claims stated here as outright fact. All you've succesfully done here is attempt to deflect the question.

No, that is not Occam's Razor. You are in fact using reverse logic. You start with the conclusion "Dante is Universal, these feats are of a universal scale", and then search for evidence to back up the claim that they are, and thus present the apparent illusion that it is consistent and straightforward when it is anything but. Meanwhile, I'm starting from the feats and statements themselves, and analyzing them for what they are whilst also looking into the Devil May Cry series as a whole. I am analyzing the whole thing scientifically, looking for evidence and factual proof.

And after doing so, then comes the Occam's Razor. And with it what do I find? Many things actually, such as that there is no universal destruction or creation feat on-screen in Devil May Cry. That the characters frequently struggle and feel threatened by much less. That nearly every single time the Human and Demon Worlds have been connected was through portals, which most often require huge amounts of preparation to either construct or seal, and that a lot of the supposed claims come from taking vague statements from characters or guides at face value and not considering them further.

Thus, it is entirely logical and understandable that after a valid, unbiased, and thorough analysis of the series I come to the conclusion that nothing in it is Universal.

And finally, Trish outright says that Mundus revived 20 years before Devil May Cry 1 began, and that since them he's been preparing for the invasion of Earth and the opening of the portal.
 
I am going to ask this

@Matt If you don't agree with 3A (That's fine) do you at least think the current tiers should change? Argosax definitely isn't only Low 6B to say the least
 
I know you will, I've personally seen you do that many times. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, or that you shouldn't voice your opinion, just that repeating it everytime someone questions it won't just change people mind. I've personally said why the mundas feat works, or at least what it can't be.

"With the full fight video, going to 2:50 it definetly doesn't seems like teleportation, at least not traditional teleportation. Its definetly not illusion since the battle field is way too large compared to the room they were just in, and it's definetly not still apart of earth since it goes from space to thunderstorm when they go up."

I've personally said my interpertaion on what the OP useing what was given.
 
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