Undertale shitton of revisions.

[ElixirBlue]

Why not make a separate thread?

The OP is in the way of any downgrades happening.

 

[Eficiente]

@Matthew_Schroeder Thank you, but there's a bit more to it than that, I explain after the last things quoted in this comment why I think Asriel's Hyper Goner attack doesn't erase the timeline, which I'm now 100% sure of, and in this comment why O.Flowey doesn't have a Low 2-C feat. As you already know why I want to remove the 2-C/B stuff those 2 things should be very quick to get through. Please read that, and then we can discuss about anything.

 

[Eficiente]

Bump. This thread's close to finish, but that's not on me.

 

[KingPin0422]

I pretty much agree with all of the tier downgrades being proposed, but there's one thing I want addressed: Photoshop Flowey supposedly making all humans and monsters disappear without a trace. Is that valid for anything? Because Flowey also says that he's going to "show them all the real meaning of this world," which would be pretty weird for him to say if he erased everyone. There's also him saying that he wants to take Frisk's soul in order to become a god, and yet that's inconsistent with the actual fight itself. So... yeah, there are some confusions here that I would like to have resolved.

EDIT: I just remembered a vital piece of information that further goes against Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey and held-back Asriel - namely, the fact that saving and loading is still possible even after taking over the game and erasing everyone (what Flowey did) or unleashing an attack that supposedly can purge the timeline (what Asriel did). Flowey being able to save and load in the first place implies that the timeline is still there, so at best, he just erased the spatial universe. As for Asriel, there's some special dialogue that only appears if you reach him without saving even once:

"SAVING over ASRIEL's file seems like the only way to defeat him... But, having never SAVED before, you lack the power to do it."

This line of text makes it clear that saving is still possible, which shouldn't be the case if Asriel really did purge the timeline with Hyper Goner.

 

[Eficiente]

Appreciated. Flower never "performed Chara's game destroying feat", lesser things happened on what he did and we just were dishonest by claiming it was the same as opposed to judging it for what it was in context. Blackness=/=everyone's dead, announcing Asgore is dead makes no sense should everyone be dead, saying that he's going to kill everyone and that he's yet to have the power to do so share the same problem.

 

[KingPin0422]

Right. Yeah, Flowey at that time does heavily imply that he wants to kill everyone, but isn't strong enough to do so:

"After all, I only have six souls. I still need one more... Before I become GOD. And then, with my newfound powers... Monsters. Humans. Everyone. I'll show them all the REAL meaning of this world."

It's also worth noting that when he becomes Asriel, he says that he no longer cares about destroying the world, but this is after Photoshop Flowey's fight, suggesting that back then, he did want to destroy the world, and he clearly would have done so if he got Frisk's soul.

Now, what do you think about the stuff I added to my previous post regarding Photoshop Flowey and Asriel? It hasn't already been pointed out, has it?

 

[Eficiente]

The Flowey and Asriel stuff you said are good, it's not the best evidence against it but I did add similarly worthy stuff to my mountain of evidence against our UT stats, it all fits literally perfectly at the end, without we needing to say "oh it actually didn't mean this bit/this was a small mistake" at no point of the game, which is just priceless. On a more casual note, I also like how the evil scale looks like with my downgrade

• O.Flowey: Threatens to kills everyone too hard like the nightmare he desperately wants to be/is.
• Asriel: Doesn't care to kill everyone but still does so, slowly, and never finishes that.
• Chara: Just destroys the pointless world and moves on to the next, to aim to do the same.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think Flowey has any universal feat but I'm fine with universal scaling through the souls he gets.

I always thought Asriel having the power to destroy the universe was self-evident too.

 

[Eficiente]

That scaling wouldn't make sense:

"After all, I only have six souls. I still need one more... Before I become GOD. And then, with my newfound powers... Monsters. Humans. Everyone. I'll show them all the REAL meaning of this world."

Having 6 human SOULs doesn't make him 6/7 of Low 2-C and thus just Low 2-C, their combined power gets them there.

Asriel will just be Low 2-C, he has a feat at that level but it's not the Hyper Goner.

 

[KingPin0422]

So, since we're talking about Undertale's tiers, I'd like to reiterate that I think that Frisk shouldn't scale to Photoshop Flowey or Asriel at all, since both of them were messing around with Frisk at first before eventually deciding to get serious, at which point they kill Frisk multiple times over. At best, you can argue that Frisk's durability can scale to Asriel's suppressed AP, but that's made iffy by the fact that his Hyper Goner attack still completely outclasses Frisk in power, since getting hit by it once reduces them to 1 HP. We don't know exactly how Frisk was able to survive the attack at all, but given that their Determination is strong enough to let them just reject their own death, it seems fairer to assume that Frisk willed themselves through the attack than that it isn't strong enough to kill them, which is supported by the fact that literally any other attack Asriel uses is able to kill them, but Hyper Goner can't even damage them after the first hit.

 

[KingPin0422]

Okay, so, I stand by not scaling the verse above Low 2-C for now, but I had a discussion over Discord regarding Photoshop Flowey, and it really made me think that perhaps Photoshop Flowey can still be Low 2-C.

To start this off, what happens when Flowey takes the six human souls? He closes the game, and when you open it back up, the first things you see are 1) the intro saying that all humans and monsters disappeared without a trace, 2) the program's name going crazy before eventually finalizing as "Floweytale," and 3) Flowey's save file, which also happens to read "My World." The game is likely part of the verse because the narrator mentions saving the game during the Asriel fight (specifically, right after Asriel kills Frisk repeatedly), although I'll have to look for any other statements of this nature. All of these things put together strongly suggest that Flowey really did rewrite the world, but it isn't enough... so let's consider other things.

First of all, if we're going to say that the whole "they all disappeared without a trace" thing is invalid, and that Flowey didn't kill anyone and was lying about that or whatever, then wouldn't someone have noticed Flowey and Frisk's fight? But no one came to try to interrupt it - in fact, when Sans mentions that the human souls disappeared at a Neutral Ending, he doesn't know why they disappeared, implying that no one was there to see Photoshop Flowey do stuff, because if someone was, they would know what happened to the souls, and that information would have eventually gotten to Sans. Secondly, I'll admit that 2 is kind of weak as evidence, but 3 should be noted because "My World" is written where the saved location would be.

To top it all off, let's look back at what happens before and after the fight. When you first load Flowey's file, there isn't any environment to be seen. No ground, no walls, not even a background, just blackness. When you walk up to a save point and activate it, Flowey immediately destroys it. Now, you can argue that save files are not timelines, and to be fair, I don't believe so myself, as of now. However, this is still something worth mentioning. Finally, after the souls rebel and Flowey is defeated for real, the environment - which previously was not there - suddenly appears again. Frisk is back at The End. I can't think of any other way to explain all of this than "Flowey destroyed everyone and everything, and the six human souls brought it all back."

 

[Eficiente]

Come on man, let's not get dogmatic. Many things wrong things that people like that feel matter doesn't add up if they don't, in fact, matter.

• Closing the game is a non-feat AP wise.
• The intro saying that all humans and monsters disappeared without a trace is Flowey claiming that as something that's he's going to do, not something that already happened, hence he says that he's going to do that after getting Frisk's SOUL and hence Frick's still not disappeared and with -_- traces.
• The program's name going crazy before eventually finalizing as "Floweytale" is neat, but what about it? For that to matter you need to know it's Low 2-C, you don't, and so so claiming it to matter is just kinda there, it's no better than Bill Cipher manipulating the intro and claiming to have made the show, and then again, Flowey was yet to mess everyone up, I don't want to hurt sensitivities here but the bias is making people claim whatever while disregarding context and even common sense, or maybe the regular common sense wasn't all that good to begin with.
• Flowey's save file being "My World." makes perfect sense with what I said SAVEs are, this is completely irrelevant. What relevance that's needed to have to matter?
• The game being part of the verse is a thing as the timeline is inside undertale or whatever, but we don't know in what way this all works for us to claim that it matters, we need to know the mechanics of how the timeline and Undertale are related and then, based on that info, we can determine if there were Low 2-C things going on. Maybe it's a perspective thing and UT is around some super small parts of the timeline, like the pages and panels comicbooks characters like Deadpool and Gweenpool can mess with, or maybe it's the craziest thing possible and UT is literally around and beyond the timeline it shows inside, that's pretty much what this Low 2-C claim is going for, and is completely unproven. Not to even say it could be something in the middle.
• "First of all, if we're going to say that the whole "they all disappeared without a trace" thing is invalid, and that Flowey didn't kill anyone and was lying about that or whatever, then wouldn't someone have noticed Flowey and Frisk's fight?" He didn't lie. We aren't not claiming he didn't do anything, the blackness didn't come out of nowhere, we claim he did something but we don't know what is it, saying things like "someone should have noticed" doesn't stop that notion. And it's just beyond bad as an argument.
• "implying that no one was there to see Photoshop Flowey do stuff" Still a beyond bad thing to argue. We don't know where they even were. This only feets the Low 2-C headcanon when you realize that "they weren't there", "no one came there" or "it was dark" make more sense than the things that needed to happen for the Low 2-C stuff to be a thing. I fear I may need to make a drawing for other people on what I'm meaning here, not for you, but whoever used this as an argument, whom I can imagine not understanding what I said or somehow missing the point.
• ""My World" is written where the saved location would be." Do you saw what I said SAVEs are? Because for this argument to matter you would need to make that invalid first, why? Because if it is valid then "My World" makes perfect sense, therefore it doesn't add up to a timeline recreation. Actually even if I said wasn't legit [which it is] calling it My World would still make sense.
• "No ground, no walls, not even a background, just blackness." I feel it, I missed the walls there. But it doesn't matter, and there kinda was a ground. And people, and monsters.
• It gives me too much cringe to reply to the rest, you can send me a private message if you didn't understand something.

 

[Eficiente]

Bump.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

"I'm gonna destroy the timeline"->"Big attack" doesn't inhereditary mean the timeline got destroyed, in this context.

Seems like a strange interpretation, and one we normally wouldn't assume unless there was something explicitly supporting it. Why would Asriel even state "Time to purge this timeline once and for all!" and then release an attack like that if he wasn't about to do exactly what he says he is going to do? This becomes especially odd when you consider that he was visibly surprised that Frisk even survived the attack and wasn't really planning on using all of his power until he saw that they did, as far as we know, so purging the timeline being a feat he is only capable of at Full Power is, again, unsubstantiated

It's not like the scenario which you laid out is the most logical or coherent explanation, either, given how much of the evidence you used to construct it is extremely flimsy at best, and one can describe another one that is just as concise based on a few things, namely:

So, to clarify this; He says he's gonna purge the timeline and then makes a big attack that destroys everything we see. But then, the barrier survived, we can't see what survived and what didn't, Asriel refers to the place where he and Frisk are as a world and the text says that the world is going to end even tho the timeline should have been already gone. Tbf, "the world" may be Undertale itself, not the timeline inside it (like what Chara did. Even O.Flower could mess with the game in ways that could be argued are unrelated to the timeline). And there are more reasonable things to say against that Suppressed-Asriel-isn't-even-Low 2-C proposal I made, I know, but are they logical? Or do they try to keep him at Low 2-C because that's already assumed to be correct?

I don't see how that disproves him destroying the timeline. "World" itself is too vague of a term to infer anything from, especially when it goes against what the text itself states, nevermind the fact that it could very well refer to a broader structure than the individual spacetime continuum which would represent the gameworld itself, like you said. The fact Chara's destruction of it was portrayed as more severe and fundamental than anything Asriel ever did supports that notion, as well

[*]6. Napstablook doesn't say anything about having died, faint or that he briefly lost his memory, he talks about he avoided Asriel's light and after that he keeps talking but is oblivious to what should have been something notable.
[/LIST]

That would be perfectly justifiable in this case, since time itself was purged completely, so it naturally wouldn't be something perceivable to him, unless we just randomly assume he has some form of cosmic awareness, which I think even you would have to recognize as a baseless thing.

So, if Asriel nuked the timeline then

• 2. Asriel nukes the timeline.
• 3. The dialogue is understandably inaccurate, the world is already gone.
• 4. The text is suspiciously inaccurate, the world is already gone.
• 5. The barrier has an insane durability, the human world and all the humans behind the barrier all were erased, even tho 7 alone created the barrier, but those were together and all of humanity is now alone.
• 6. It doesn't matter.

The first few points don't mean anything. As said above, "World" is an extremely vague term and could very well refer to a broader structure than the timeline alone, something which the Genocide Route's ending certainly supports.

I don't see what the Hypergoner destroying
all humans has to do with anything? The seven humans who erected the barrier are likely people who lived hundreds of years before the modern age in which the game takes place, and we'd obviously assume human civilization at that time is similar to our own, especially given how Frisk has to receive exposition on subjects like SOULs. So they can be safely disregarded as outliers; it's not like we would assume they are physically strong enough to tank the Hypergoner as you seem to be implying, one way or another, since they created the barrier through a magical spell.

 

[Eficiente]

Seems like a strange interpretation, and one we normally wouldn't assume unless there was something explicitly supporting it. Why would Asriel even state "Time to purge this timeline once and for all!" and then release an attack like that if he wasn't about to do exactly what he says he is going to do? This becomes especially odd when you consider that he was visibly surprised that Frisk even survived the attack and wasn't really planning on using all of his power until he saw that they did, as far as we know, so purging the timeline being a feat he is only capable of at Full Power is, again, unsubstantiated

It's not like the scenario which you laid out is the most logical or coherent explanation, either, given how much of the evidence you used to construct it is extremely flimsy at best, and one can describe another one that is just as concise based on a few things, namely:

Him destroying the timeline with that comes out of us understanding that by context, but with another interpretation being present then it should altogether stop being the standard of what happened

• Asriel was purging the timeline, he didn't lie there, so don't rhetorically ask me why he would say that and that he had to mean that he would destroy the timeline right there because saying what he said makes sense and destroying the timeline right there isn't the standard.
• Him making a big attack without his full power and expecting Frisk to die from it can mean that he wanted to kill them before destroying the timeline, possibility you don't acknowledge. The attack being special, him not using his full power and expecting Frisk to die are all things that don't translate to him having destroyed the timeline there.

I don't see how that disproves him destroying the timeline. "World" itself is too vague of a term to infer anything from, especially when it goes against what the text itself states, nevermind the fact that it could very well refer to a broader structure than the individual spacetime continuum which would represent the gameworld itself, like you said. The fact Chara's destruction of it was portrayed as more severe and fundamental than anything Asriel ever did supports that notion, as well

While it's true that "world" is a vague term looking at the context gives us a more clear take on it; "You know... I don't care about destroying this world anymore. After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... " Asriel uses world as in timeline there, which he (needlessly) reconfirms later; "If you choose... Everone will be ripped from this timeline... ... and sent back before all of this ever happened. Nobody will remember anything. You'll be able to do whatever you want. ... That power. I know tha power. That's the power you were fighting to stop, wasn't it? The power that I wanted to use." It's literally impossible for world to mean the broader structure of UT itself when Asriel wasn't destroying UT itself, but the timeline.

"especially when it goes against what the text itself states" No it doesn't.. you took it all as meaning that Asriel destroyed the timeline without other takes on what was going on and in that way it goes against the text itself, and it does against what Asriel says too. But it was never the standard, as I said before. The take that doesn't contradict anything is the standard, and it's also consistent. Furthermore, ignoring all the above, world may be vague but it can mean planet, more than planet, universe, timeline or more, with each take taking more speculation that the latter, so saying it means timeline should be above saying it means more than timeline in terms of what we can claim.

"The fact Chara's destruction of it was portrayed as more severe and fundamental than anything Asriel ever did supports that notion, as well" I mean, no, it's its own thing. When Chara destroyed everything, there was nothing (it was stated, not contradicted, the game didn't even had a name), when Asriel used his Hyper Goner, there's a list of things still there. Chara's feat is a non-factor that even ruins the Hyper Goner doing a Low 2-C feat.

That would be perfectly justifiable in this case, since time itself was purged completely, so it naturally wouldn't be something perceivable to him, unless we just randomly assume he has some form of cosmic awareness, which I think even you would have to recognize as a baseless thing.

You're correct. On a personal, inapplicable level, I still think it's odd.

The first few points don't mean anything. As said above, "World" is an extremely vague term and could very well refer to a broader structure than the timeline alone, something which the Genocide Route's ending certainly supports.

Already covered.

I don't see what the Hypergoner destroying all humans has to do with anything? The seven humans who erected the barrier are likely people who lived hundreds of years before the modern age in which the game takes place, and we'd obviously assume human civilization at that time is similar to our own, especially given how Frisk has to receive exposition on subjects like SOULs. So they can be safely disregarded as outliers; it's not like we would assume they are physically strong enough to tank the Hypergoner as you seem to be implying, one way or another, since they created the barrier through a magical spell.

Ok, so, I was wrong at the time when specifically implying that the humans having gotten killed was odd, but, it's still beyond suspicious for the attack to have reached them from behind a barrier it didn't destroy. I think that speaks for itself.

Please answer back when possible, thank you. And also thank you for commenting in the thread.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Hm. Seems like you actually make some good points, given how Asriel apparently had his own save file recorded in the game even after he started using his true power, and the fact Sans explicitly describes Frisk / The Player's game-related abilities as anomalies in the spacetime continuum does lend some credence to the idea Asriel hadn't destroyed the timeline yet.

Flowey also describes SAVEs and LOADs as the power to reshape the world, and then brings up the idea of destroying it entirely in the Genocide Route, which seems consistent with Asriel saying that this was his ultimate goal beforehand. So "World = Timeline" looks reasonable enough, looking at it. I don't particularly agree with much of your arguments, but I concede to that point.

Regardless of that, though, I pretty heavily disagree with Photoshop Flowey being 9-A, considering he can pretty effortlessly interfere with the gameworld itself and flat-out renames it to "Floweytale" at one point, before he removes the title from the game window and plunges the whole thing into that blackness. Given that, as well as how he refers to the whole world as being his own and then calls himself its God, I think it's pretty reasonable to conclude he has some decent amount of control over the timeline, enough that he passes the "Significantly affecting" clause which you inserted into the Tiering System page a while ago, so I'd say Low 2-C is fine for him.

 

[Eficiente]

As I said in one point, of all my arguments some are not as strong as the rest, but I feel that should still be said to make my case more clear.

Regardless of that, though, I pretty heavily disagree with Photoshop Flowey being 9-A, considering he can pretty effortlessly interfere with the gameworld itself and flat-out renames it to "Floweytale" at one point, before he removes the title from the game window and plunges the whole thing into that blackness. Given that, as well as how he refers to the whole world as being his own and then calls himself its God, I think it's pretty reasonable to conclude he has some decent amount of control over the timeline, enough that he passes the "Significantly affecting" clause which you inserted into the Tiering System page a while ago, so I'd say Low 2-C is fine for him.

I definitely get it's weird, but have to disagree. It's not like he's 9-A, but more so that we don't know his tier and that's a minimum. Interfere with the gameworld in all the ways that he did are not forms of AP, but hax. It may look like UT has a timeline in it, but that's not really true, UT can just be around the timeline it shows as a game in the same way a camera or panels of a comic follow protagonists and other events in stories in series/movies and comics respectively, even meta narratives ones. If anyone in verses like that can do the same things P.Flowey can do then that's also not an AP feat for them. Like Bill Cipher making the intro and claiming to have made the show, the point with that being that he just messes with what we see, not all the reality in-canon. Yes when Chara nukes everything that includes the game, but that has the obvious problem that Chara nuked the timeline and the game.

Besides, part of what you say there needs to be undermined due to what know in canon, it was stated that 7 SOULs would give the powers of a God and Flowey said he needed 1 more to become one, so him also claiming to be one is pretty false, he's unreliable in that small sense. Considering he needed that power to kill everyone it would make sense in context that he was unable to do so as of then, so, while again, his realistic tier would be unknown, we do at least know it would be lesser than Low 2-C. All the other things done never translated to Low 2-C, what's more, how he warped the into (what the new intro said) is what he wanted to do after getting Frisk's SOUL, which he told in the intro as of something that already happened, so "Floweytale" and "My World" can just be an aspiration of how he thinks things will be from then on, after getting Frisk's SOUL, "My World" also fitting with how he sees the world and what he will do to it, all as opposed to it all being a statement of the Low 2-C power he already has over it, but just self-grandeur. You tell me which one takes less speculation.

 

[Eficiente]

Bump. I'm thankful of all the communication that could happen in this thread but need to ask for a little more of it to finish it. As I said before I can add the changes.

 

[Theuser789]

Uh, you are the only staff member who has agreed to Photoshop Flowey being downgraded, everyone else disagreed, you need far more approval then just "a little more" to apply your changes?

 

[Eficiente]

I'm gonna fall for it and reply that; my changes are more than that, so you're wrong. I respect Agnaa and Ricsi-viragosi's opinions more than that of a good number of staff in the wiki, let alone certain regular users, I also take as relevant Elizhaa not opposing this, and with Matthew_Schroeder and Ultima_Reality the P.Flowey stuff is the only part left, I'm sure we will all concur with a bit more of communication about it, I already said to them what I had to say about it and I'm waiting for their response.

Anyone can comment here but I please ask to only do so if it's relevant and informed.

 

[Agnaa]

I've stopped replying because the downgrade seems weird but I don't have any actual arguments to oppose it with.

 

[Eficiente]

the downgrade seems weird but I don't have any actual arguments to oppose it with.

I think the same of my own downgrades here. Though thinking about it that way I believe our current stats and claims to be even more "weird" based on all the info pointed out.

 

[Theuser789]

Please drop this weird attitude against me when I only pointed out what's currently happening, all I said you can just apply your changes without people agreeing with it first, a very relevant comment on a thread thank you very much

 

[Agnaa]

C'mon Theuser, Eficiente was literally asking for more people to agree before applying it...

 

[Theuser789]

I know! I just complimented the post by saying there's more than just a "little more"

 

[Eficiente]

It's like you're unable to see the things you did wrong and only get hurt when someone tells you you're wrong, I'm sorry but you need to reconsider things up based on it as it wastes your own time and that of others. I'm not saying this to be a dick, just an evaluation to help;

I know! I just complimented the post by saying there's more than just a "little more"

You're wrong, you talked based on incomplete information in a way that "made me look bad" while you said less things than what I had to say as a response, I pointed it out, and you just offended and portrayed the matter this way.

Please drop this weird attitude against me when I only pointed out what's currently happening, all I said you can just apply your changes without people agreeing with it first, a very relevant comment on a thread thank you very much

It's not against you, it was a reaction to something that, by that logic, I can feel is "against me". I may or may not react to more things you say based on their accuracy, and doing so will not be "against you", but if you keep believing what you express here then you will certainly believe it is against you, and you will get offended. That doesn't need to happen but it's not on me.

Any continuation of this here in this thread will be deleted.

 

[Theuser789]

Fine then, whatever

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Apologies for the late answer, kinda overslept today. Anyways...

It may look like UT has a timeline in it, but that's not really true, UT can just be around the timeline it shows as a game in the same way a camera or panels of a comic follow protagonists and other events in stories in series/movies and comics respectively, even meta narratives ones. If anyone in verses like that can do the same things P.Flowey can do then that's also not an AP feat for them. Like Bill Cipher making the intro and claiming to have made the show, the point with that being that he just messes with what we see, not all the reality in-canon. Yes when Chara nukes everything that includes the game, but that has the obvious problem that Chara nuked the timeline and the game.

You seem to have missed my point there: To begin with, I am arguing that the timeline and the "game" which the characters affect throughout the story are the same thing, or at least can be considered as functionally equivalent in this case, given how the metafictional powers like SAVEs, LOADs and RESETs are described as anomalies directly meddling with the spacetime continuum, as well as how "World" is pretty consistently used to refer to the timeline, before the Genocide Route directly shows us that its destruction is also the destruction of the game itself (Window shaking, "UNDERTALE" vanishing from the place where a title should be, etc.)

This already sets those feats apart from things like Bill being implied to have changed Gravity Falls' intro, which are pretty often just gag moments that receive no elaboration nor are meant to be related to some background cosmology, regardless of how basic it may be, unlike Undertale's case. Thus, Flowey gaining full control over the gameworld would be equivalent to him gaining full control over the timeline, hence Low 2-C.

Besides, part of what you say there needs to be undermined due to what know in canon, it was stated that 7 SOULs would give the powers of a God and Flowey said he needed 1 more to become one, so him also claiming to be one is pretty false, he's unreliable in that small sense. Considering he needed that power to kill everyone it would make sense in context that he was unable to do so as of then, so, while again, his realistic tier would be unknown, we do at least know it would be lesser than Low 2-C. All the other things done never translated to Low 2-C, what's more, how he warped the into (what the new intro said) is what he wanted to do after getting Frisk's SOUL, which he told in the intro as of something that already happened, so "Floweytale" and "My World" can just be an aspiration of how he thinks things will be from then on, after getting Frisk's SOUL, "My World" also fitting with how he sees the world and what he will do to it, all as opposed to it all being a statement of the Low 2-C power he already has over it, but just self-grandeur. You tell me which one takes less speculation.

And yet he still acknowledges his limits and never denies the fact he still needs one more SOUL to complete his goals, even as he's claiming to be the world's God and warping the whole game inside out, so it's pretty clear that he's aware of the extent of his power and that this self-grandeur is justified, in this case. Given how he already had the whole Underground under his thumb, literally the only thing preventing him from going ahead and taking over everything was the barrier's presence (Which would be a non-factor in the neutral scenarios that the Wiki often assumes are at place), and even that didn't really stop him from doing all of the wacky stuff he does.

The later points are irrelevant, as well, given how I've never claimed that him changing the intro or the game's title were the sole reasons he'd be at Low 2-C. Those are just being used as support for the statement that he controls the whole World (Meaning the Timeline / Game) in this state, since they showcase that he can still manipulate all of it on a whim.

 

[Agnaa]

How did Flowey perform a Low 2-C feat if the barrier was left intact? Shouldn't he not have been able to reach beyond the Underground?

 

[Eficiente]

You seem to have missed my point there: To begin with, I am arguing that the timeline and the "game" which the characters affect throughout the story are the same thing, or at least can be considered as functionally equivalent in this case

If the game and the timeline were the same then Asriel would not be able to use the game-like function that is Resetting after destroying the timeline.

given how the metafictional powers like SAVEs, LOADs and RESETs are described as anomalies directly meddling with the spacetime continuum

• This is a non-point because, should the game and timeline not be one or functionally equivalent, those things would still be anomalies in the timeline. That just means they're odd, if I go to any verse and start using space-time manip or other weird powers to mess things up in the timeline but in a non-Low 2-C way (like time travelling) then any scientific who could detect that could very well take it as an anomaly in the timeline, that can be interpreted to be a thing and would not mean that my powers or their source are a timeline-like structure that if messed with ("significantly affected") will result in a Low 2-C feat. Unless any context affirmes so, this itself isn't a form of evidence.
• The anomaly being in the spacetime continuum is as impressive as me being in the universe, the second time Sans mentions it it's clear that it's a being in one place at a time that experiences time like any other. We can say it has Cross-Dimensional range with its powers but that's about it.

as well as how "World" is pretty consistently used to refer to the timeline, before the Genocide Route directly shows us that its destruction is also the destruction of the game itself (Window shaking, "UNDERTALE" vanishing from the place where a title should be, etc.)

World is used to refer to the timeline but that bit on its own doesn't add points (not sure if you implied that), it can at minimum be interpreted that Chara destroying the world/timeline and that destroying the game too was an imprecision of Chara, whom the humanity and all living beings they hated where all in the universe but they made an overkill. Like you said before, world is a vague word. If the timeline was pointless to them then why would the game be less pointless?

This is still a good argument tho, but should they be the same doing what Flowey did to it still wouldn't be Low 2-C.

This already sets those feats apart from things like Bill being implied to have changed Gravity Falls' intro, which are pretty often just gag moments that receive no elaboration nor are meant to be related to some background cosmology, regardless of how basic it may be, unlike Undertale's case. Thus, Flowey gaining full control over the gameworld would be equivalent to him gaining full control over the timeline, hence Low 2-C.

Not really it can still be interpreted as a gap for Flowey's case while he uses legit powers he has, but even still, if I hack the timeline into calling it with my name then that's not a Low 2-C, because how would you then be willing to say that I can use the same powers to do stuff = to destroying it? That's not significantly affecting at all, just hax. Same with Flowey, we don't know if he had full control over the gameworld, he could use some alterations in it in the same way any non-Low 2-C Plot, Conceptual or Reality Manipulator would, and it collides with how he needed Frisk's soul to then kill everyone with his newfound powers, that heavy implies he's unable to do so as of there. "I still one more... Before I become GOD. And then, with my newfound powers... Monsters. Humans. Everyone. I'll show them all the REAL meaning of this world."

Using that "god" argument you said before it also goes against him saying he's yet to become one (when reliable about it) and lore saying 7 SOULs make you one.

And yet he still acknowledges his limits and never denies the fact he still needs one more SOUL to complete his goals, even as he's claiming to be the world's God and warping the whole game inside out, so it's pretty clear that he's aware of the extent of his power and that this self-grandeur is justified, in this case.

He's not "warping the whole game inside out", he messes up specific and individual things, a number of them, but not all. Otherwise what he needs to do next is something he already has the power to do, nothing stops him from hacking himself up more human SOULs, or how do you think things would play out should he hypothetically tried to destroy the timeline with those 6 SOULs? Given what he said, the latter would not be possible while the "warping the whole game" comes out of us.

Given how he already had the whole Underground under his thumb, literally the only thing preventing him from going ahead and taking over everything was the barrier's presence (Which would be a non-factor in the neutral scenarios that the Wiki often assumes are at place)

Small nitpick (maybe it's a nitpick from my part?) but considering Frisk ends up in the other side of the barrier, which is either due to the SOULs putting him there, the fight taking place near and finishing there or the thing being gone for a while, I don't really think the barrier stops O.Flower in any way based on that. What is not a nitpick at all; why the heck would a "physical" barrier that stops beings from moving from place A to place B in some mountain do anything at all to prevent someone who can supposedly Manipulate Reality in the timeline to do anything he wants? The way Flowey worded it (becoming a god, his new powers) kinda implies it's a power thing.

and even that didn't really stop him from doing all of the wacky stuff he does.

None of them are Low 2-C. If a character has maybe burned a universe then some random showing of it burning everything on-screen isn't evidence nor supporting evidence of it.

The later points are irrelevant, as well, given how I've never claimed that him changing the intro or the game's title were the sole reasons he'd be at Low 2-C. Those are just being used as support for the statement that he controls the whole World (Meaning the Timeline / Game) in this state, since they showcase that he can still manipulate all of it on a whim.

Then again, even if the game was the timeline all his powers aren't Low 2-C, none significantly affects it. Closing the game doesn't destroy it, changing text is Text and Information Manip, corrupting things to what he makes them to be and creating things up is more of those powers as he's editing things up to make them. Heck the new body he made for himself is part of the game and he can edit it, but doing so isn't Low 2-C, if he creates a cup he's also editing the game, but that's not Low 2-C. We need to first know the manipulation it's = in power to destroying the timeline to say it's Low 2-C and we don't have that information, he just does crazy things and we react to it. Just knowing it's on a timeline isn't enough.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The barrier should not be able to stop him though, right? Anyone with more than a human soul can get past it, and I assumed Frisk gets past the barrier in neutral thanks to Flowey and the SOUL's meddling.

Breaking the barrier and moving past it are not equally difficult.

 

[Eficiente]

Bump.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I agree with this CRT FRA

 

[Agnaa]

Which part? The original post which no-one agrees with, or with Eficiente's downgrades?

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Eficiente's downgrades

 

[Eficiente]

Bump.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Isn't Undertale directly stated to have multiple timelines?

 

[Eficiente]

It's the other way around, with everything in the game supporting it. Just in case, I'll tell you to please read the thread if you haven't, to think UT has many timelines like that is odd.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The thread is a little massive for me to read it (although i actualy readed it before), so i may have missed one thing.

Did someone adress sans statement about "timelines jumping until everything ends"?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, right when I proposed my downgrade I adressed that, later on I missed one other thing Sans said that supported it.