Undertale shitton of revisions.

[StrymULTRA]

Now that CRTs are allowed and no one made an Undertale CRT in a looong time, is finally time to make my move about the verse.

• SOUL Attacks, the return

The reason why the SOUL Attacks got removed, is because the damage on it is reduced from putting just an armor, so the damage in fights is just physical. However, this is completely wrong since the SOUL, like the body, gets stronger as the body grows while it gets LOVE, so the verse threats the SOUL being strong as the body, it should be obvious that if the body gets stronger, the SOUL gets stronger as well, plus, is obvious that they attack the SOUL along with the body. So their SOUL Manipulation returns as before.

• Speed Upgrade

Now, Knight Knight has attacks which relate with elements regarding both the Sun and the Moon, so is clear that the Sun attacks are somehow related to it. Yeah, I know that is magic, but the possibility of these attacks being actually SoL exists, and it shouldn't be ignored. So, I suggest that any non-god tier character speed rating should be upgraded from just "Supersonic" to "Supersonic, likely Speed of Light"; about Sans, he should be upgraded to "Supersonic, possibly Speed of Light attack speed with at least Supersonic+, possibly FTL reaction speed".

About the God Tiers.​

Finally the section I wanted to talk most, since there are many thing hella wrong with them.

• Merging Flowey and Asriel's page

I never got why putting them as separate profiles. They aren't the same character but from different continuites, but are literally different forms of the same character in the same timeline. Is like making a page for DBS Goku per each Arc he appears in, is completely no-sense. My suggestion is deleting Asriel's page, and incorporating it in Flowey's page as 2 more keys, aka like this.

Key: Base | Photoshop Flowey | God Asriel (Supressed) | God Asriel (Full Power)

The reason why is on Flowey's page is because Asriel in the game is basically an overpowered Flowey in terms of character, plus most of the time he's known as Flowey, we don't call Goku "Kakaroth" in his profile name because he's born like that. Like Goku has Kakaroth as alias name, Flowey should have Asriel Dreemurr as alias, but anything Flowey/Asriel did will be in just Flowey's page.

Plus, all Asriel's win/loss will be added in Flowey's for obvious reasons.

• The cosmology

Now, we know that Flowey did a whole lot of RESETs, and that sans implies that for each RESET Frisk encounters another one, so there are timelines even for each time a DT user dies. The number of timelines is obviously 2-B, so anything about 2-C should be removed. The 2-B range should be in countless range since the resets from Flowey, Frisk, and other DT users (since Flowey basically gained the LOAD powers from just getting the DT of an human SOUL, so is obvious that there were users of the SAVE and LOAD before Flowey) would be so much that would be completely uncountable, so Countless 2-B for the Undertale cosmology should be fine.

• Flowey's tier

Now, the reason why Flowey is more than Low 2-C in his Photoshop key is completely wrong. The scaling from Chara is completely baseless, since Flowey has just more LOVE, but we know that, despite Frisk had more LOVE than Undying Undyne, the latter was still physically stronger. Also, if Photoshop Flowey was already 2-B, the fight against his GoHD form would be completely without a meaning, since Flowey could've already reset the reality in the Neutral Run, BUT Flowey costantly pressed about being able to do so in just his GoHD form.

However, Flowey in his Photoshop key should still be Low 2-C since he kinda implied to have completely destroyed and recreated the timeline where he was when he transformed in his Photoshop key. The SAVE Points in the fight aren't timelines at all, but in that fight are just some points where you can rewind time, but nothing else, making Photoshop Flowey able to even reset the timeline to specific SAVE points he creates in it, making him able to use the SAVE in another way than just "he respawns in another timeline".

About his GoHD form, as said before, he implied to be able a True RESET, a thing that Chara was implied to be able to. Since Supressed Asriel was implied to be about to do so as well, and was destroying passively rest of the reality in his Full Power form after effortessly destroying one timeline in his supressed form, a feat superior to Chara's. So I guess that Asriel's 2-B ratings are still ok.

About the speed, God Asriel should be MFTL+, since he purged a timeline in seconds, plus is pretty much cleat that isn't just an Universal+ ranged attack since "pieces" of timelines are coming to Frisk, in an attempt to hit them. While the blocks being pieces of timeline might be too much an assumption, is pretty logic, since the timeline was being absorbed and purged, so is quite logical that they're pieces of said timeline, shattered from Hyper Goner's absorbtion.

• Issues with Frisk's page

From a lot of time I was wondering why his MAX DT Neutral and Pacifist are the same. Frisk in the Neutral Run gets ome-shotted from Photoshop Flowey, while in the Pacifist not only they can even resurect themselves, but even tank God Asriel who's infinitely stronger than before. Since Pacifist Frisk's DT = God Asriel's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photoshop Flowey's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neutral Frisk, I guess that we should make new keys about Frisk:

Key: Base | Extreme levels of DETERMINATION (Neutral) | Extreme levels of DETERMINATION (Pacifist)

The Extreme Neutral Key should be Low 2-C since they can still match a supressed Photoshop Flowey and likely tanked his destruction of the timeline, plus Flowey was just joking with them since he could one-shot them anytime. So Frisk should be Baseline and Flowey immensely above it.

Pacifist Frisk should be "At least Low 2-C" in AP due to being obviously superior to Photohop Flowey and 2-B in durability due to tanking God Asriel's hits.

Plus Pacifist Frisk should be MFTL+ via scaling from God Asriel.

C'mon it was obvious, the keys are so different that putting them in just one is completely no-sense.

• The Anomaly

They're shown to be able to perform a True RESET as said from Flowey and even showed to be able to do so. This puts it at the same tier as Chara and God Asriel, aka 2-B.

• Hax time

Finally the hax section, since they lack these a lot.

1. Mid-Godly Regeneration: Pacifist Frisk could reform their SOUL after it was destroyed, and the SOUL is always shown to shatter when they die. No Low-Godly regeneration can do such a thing like reforming a soul shattered to pieces, Mid-Godly is way more logical and fits better Frisk's regen. God Asriel should scale since both have the same levels of DT.
2. Resistance to Reality Warping, Data Manipulation and Information Manipulation: Since Neutral Frisk already tanked the destruction and rewrite of Photoshop Flowey, they have resistance to these haxes, and whoever scales above them has these reistances as well for obvious reasons.
3. Omnipresence and related abilities: Is finally time to re-introduce Omnipresence for some characters. Chara in their absolute implied to be the concept of STATS which exists anywhere no matter the place and time, this pretty much implies both Omnipresence, Type 9 Large Size, Higher-Dimensional Existence and Type 1 Abstract Existence, idk why they got removed. Plus Chara isn't shown with a defined form after nuking the reality, as a further proof of them becoming an Abstract Concept. The Anomaly, however, will remain "Unknown" in speed due of the vagueness of their state of existence, aka if they're comparable to Chara in existence or not, we'll never know more on that, so Unknown will remain for them. About God Asriel Full Power Form, we see him covering anything around space and Menu options, and he was even calling from the future despite he didn't reach that form yet. This is pretty much a proof of him being omnipresent in space and time as well, and having Omnipresence, Type 9 Large Size and Higher-Dimensional existence in his Full Power form. And don't even try to counter this with saying that sans did that too, the fight was still in a building, not in shattered reality where Asriel could even destroy even the buttons, plus sans reaching the button is more an ability of his than an actual feat of omnipresence like Asriel's.
4. Annoying Dog additions: Since is the god who created anything, he should scale from his creations, since nothing remotely contradicts so, plus he should get Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation since in his creation there's Chara, who I said before is an abstract existence. Plus there's his Type 5 Acausality, since he actually exists outside the game systems, for example he's blantantly in the joystick configuration menu. Plus he's always unaffected from anything that happens, even other omnipresent guys busting the reality. This implies Type 5 acausality since nobody in the verse can interact with him unless he decides to.

TLDR​

1. Soul Attacks return to be a thing
2. "Possibly Speed of Light" will be added to Non-God tiers speed and sans will have "possible FTL" reaction speed
3. Asriel's page will be incorporated to Flowey's
4. The cosmology will be upgraded to Countless 2-B
5. Photoshop Flowey will be "At least Low 2-C"
6. God Asriel will be MFTL+
7. Frisk's MAX DETERMINATION will be separated in 2 for Neutral and Pacifist routes
8. MAX DT Neutral Frisk will be Low 2-C
9. MAX DT Pacifist Frisk will be "At least Low 2-C" in AP and 2-B in Durability
10. The Anomaly returns at 2-B
11. MAX DT Pacifist Frisk and God Asriel will have Mid-Godly Regeneration
12. MAX DT Neutral Frisk and who scales above him will have Resistance to Reality Warping, Data Manipulation and Information Manipulation
13. Absolute Chara will have Type 1 AE, Type 9 Large Size, Omnipresence and Higher-Dimensional Existence
14. The Anomaly will remain at Unknown speed-wise due to the vagueness of their state of existence.
15. Full Power God Asriel will have Higher-Dimensional Existence, Type 9 Large Size and Omnipresence
16. Annoying Dog will have all the verse abilities, plus Type 3 Conceptual Manipulation and Type 5 Acausality

 

[Zencha9]

absolutely no to Type 5 Acausality for Annoying God this has ben discussed before being unable to intract with him could just be law manip or some type of Invulnerability nothing suggests that Annoying God transcends causality as a system

 

[StrymULTRA]

absolutely no to Type 5 Acausality for Annoying God this has ben discussed before being unable to intract with him could just be law manip or some type of Invulnerability nothing suggests that Annoying God transcends causality as a system

The fact that he's not affected from multiversal destructions from abstract guys and he's outside any game system (aka the reality ones) isn't enough?

 

[Rikimarox2]

While we are at it, should we delete W.D. Gaster's profile, considering there is barely any information about him, and we have never seen him fight? Or should we wait after this CRT?

 

[Zencha9]

The fact that he's not affected from multiversal destructions from abstract guys and he's outside any game system (aka the reality ones) isn't enough?

no it's not enough

 

[StrymULTRA]

While we are at it, should we delete W.D. Gaster's profile, considering there is barely any information about him, and we have never seen him fight? Or should we wait after this CRT?

Meh, idk tbf, not that I care really much about him anyways.

 

[StrymULTRA]

no it's not enough

But is always shown to exist outside the system of the game and being unaffected from them like a Type 2 concept, I mean, that's pretty much an evidence

 

[Zencha9]

was it stated that Annoying Dog exists outside the game ?

 

[Theuser789]

There's already another Undertale CRT

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't know why I feel that there's a lot wrong in this... but eh, I'll try to come back to this later.

 

[StrymULTRA]

was it stated that Annoying Dog exists outside the game ?

Implied from lots of sources, like the fact that he exists in the Josystick menu, or that he exists even in Deltarune, which is stated to be in another reality separated from the UT verse from WoG.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's already another Undertale CRT

Ooof, didn't know, my bad

 

[Zencha9]

Implied from lots of sources, like the fact that he exists in the Josystick menu, or that he exists even in Deltarune, which is stated to be in another reality separated from the UT verse from WoG.

that's a really weak reasoning

 

[StrymULTRA]

that's a really weak reasoning

Just saying "no", "is weak reasoning", "we already discussed" ain't helping tbf

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

This is more like Type 4 than Type 5

 

[Theuser789]

I feel like we should wait for the other thread to be completed before tackling this one

 

[StrymULTRA]

I feel like we should wait for the other thread to be completed before tackling this one

K

 

[Lord_JJJ]

1 Tottaly agree with the return of the Soul Hax

2 I agree with light speed Undertale there are also the lasers and Flowey absorpation light flash to support that but I guess with the wiki stranders for light speed it may rejected, Anyway if a miracle happen in that get not rejected I guess Asgore should get FTL attack speed since he is obviously seprior in speed . And I guess that the Ruins, Snowdin an Waterfull enemies should not get the light speed rating

3 That is the thing I mostly agree with, I never get why there are two pages for him

4 Agree with that two but I feel that there are still a possibility for the UT Multiverse be just 103 (the fun and Deltarune)

6 Agree with that too

7 I think frisk should also get start game and late game keys, he obviously become stronger throug the game. I know that there will not be a big defrence between that two keys but I guess that two keys will be helpfull for scaling

5 Agree with Photoshop downgrade and I was wating for it from a long time ago

10 I am natural about the Anomaly

11 Agree with Mid Godly regen

12 Agree with resistance to RW but not sure about the Data and information Manipulation resistance

13 I agree with the AE but not the Omnipresent, I feel the omnipresent statement is kinda vauge

15 I am natural about Asriel, I guess Higher dimentional existence can be used but I has hard time agree with Omnipresence

66 I agree that Gaster page should be deleted due to us laking so much knowledge about him

Also Asriel Dreemurr should get memory manipulation (shown to earse the monsters memories with frisk). The True Reset users hould get Acausality negation seeing that even those with Acusility type 1 do not remember the events before the true reset. Undyne, Toriel and Papyrus should get limited Acausality (type 1) due to them having some vauge memories from before the reset

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @ArbitraryNumbers @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin

Are you willing to help out with input here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

1 Tottaly agree with the return of the Soul Hax

2 I agree with light speed Undertale there are also the lasers and Flowey absorpation light flash to support that but I guess with the wiki stranders for light speed it may rejected, Anyway if a miracle happen in that get not rejected I guess Asgore should get FTL attack speed since he is obviously seprior in speed . And I guess that the Ruins, Snowdin an Waterfull enemies should not get the light speed rating

3 That is the thing I mostly agree with, I never get why there are two pages for him

4 Agree with that two but I feel that there are still a possibility for the UT Multiverse be just 103 (the fun and Deltarune)

6 Agree with that too

7 I think frisk should also get start game and late game keys, he obviously become stronger throug the game. I know that there will not be a big defrence between that two keys but I guess that two keys will be helpfull for scaling

5 Agree with Photoshop downgrade and I was wating for it from a long time ago

10 I am natural about the Anomaly

11 Agree with Mid Godly regen

12 Agree with resistance to RW but not sure about the Data and information Manipulation resistance

13 I agree with the AE but not the Omnipresent, I feel the omnipresent statement is kinda vauge

15 I am natural about Asriel, I guess Higher dimentional existence can be used but I has hard time agree with Omnipresence

66 I agree that Gaster page should be deleted due to us laking so much knowledge about him

Also Asriel Dreemurr should get memory manipulation (shown to earse the monsters memories with frisk). The True Reset users hould get Acausality negation seeing that even those with Acusility type 1 do not remember the events before the true reset. Undyne, Toriel and Papyrus should get limited Acausality (type 1) due to them having some vauge memories from before the reset

How's Chara vague? Their statement was basically this:

• Greetings.
• I am Chara.
• "Chara."
• The demon that comes when people call its name.
• It doesn't matter when.
• It doesn't matter where.
• Time after time, I will appear.
• And, with your help.
• We will eradicate the enemy and become strong.
• HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.
• Every time a number increases, that feeling...
• That's me.
• "Chara."

Basically they say that they're the concept of STATS, that, regardless of the place and time, they'll appear. It makes more sense that is Omnipresence than not, since STATS are a thing which exists in any era and place, since anyone of the verse has them, how that's not Omnipresence?

Anyway, I agree with Memory hax and Type 1 Acausality Negation for True RESET, but for Undyne, Papyrus and Toriel:

1. I recall Undyne remember what exactly happened in the previous route before a RESET (and that makes sense since she has DT).
2. I don't recall the other 2 having vague memories after a RESET like Undyne, would ya give some proofs of that?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I will not go into the soul part. But, the fact that souls are equal to stats was the major problem to begin with, as far as I recall. If willing to use that (since Deltarune was in planning before UT even released), we do get to see attacks phasing through your body but not your soul with the overworld combat sections, despite armor working the same.

The attacks don't meet our minimum Sol requirements. Having a sun shaped object releasing them isn't enough. Sans' reaction feats are not enough to warrant him being above his current speed rating either.


Fusing Flowey and Asriel doesn't really matter for change, so do what you wish.

Mid-Godly is recovering from compete erasion, not from soul shards. While it is better than normal Low-Godly, it is not enough to assume Frisk could come back if their soul and body were both erased. It should be noted, but I don't think that is enough for Mid-Godly.

For the tier, assuming countless is wrong, simply. At most you could use each post-death dialogue for extra timelines, but countless is way too much a reach.

For Flowey, I agree with the downgrade.

None of Asriel's feats are above Chara's, but as both can perform a true reset they should still be equal. For speed though, there is no reason for his other attacks to scale in speed, and purgin a whole time line is immeasurable.

The only resistance Frisk is getting from Flowey is Acausality type 1 and maybe existence erasure.

No on Chara. They say they are the feeling that the Anomaly has when those go up, which is in no way as being the stats themselves.

FFor Asriel, that is simply range and time manip.

 

[Agnaa]

Jesus christ, every piece of wank that was painstakingly removed is now trying to be shoved back in all at once.

1. Soul attacks were always a thing and still are a thing. It's just that now they aren't considered to negate dura since they still need to damage the body. Showing that the damage you take decreases with LOVE is nowhere near proof for them negating durability.
2. SoL for having an image of a sun in a magical attack is ******* laughable. It fails literally every section on our Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page.
3. Merging Flowey and Asriel seems fine, I don't care which one is left over, but I do think the new key names you gave are weird and we should stick with ones closer to what we have now.
4. I'm not familiar enough with the reason for downgrading from 2-B to 2-C so I won't argue this point too much until someone else brings up the explanation, but I am 100% sure that all the arguments you make now were made then, so I don't feel comfortable accepting this. On top of that, those arguments aren't very convincing. "Two characters reset a lot and created some timelines" has no reason to be put at 1000 timelines, and putting it an uncountable is beyond ridiculous, it would be far less than that, "uncountable" timelines is a very serious statement that should not be given out lightly like this.
5. I don't like Flowey's current justifications and I'm not familiar with them, but I see no reason for the timelines in that fight to not be treated as real. It's the same mechanism that Frisk has, and we know those are real new timelines, so I think Flowey should not be put below 2-C. You do make very good points for not scaling to Chara, tho.
6. Putting Asriel at MFTL+ attack speeds for that attack sounds pretty dang ridiculous to me, but I don't deal with these feats very often, maybe ratings like that are standard practice for us.
7. idk what you're talking about where you're supposedly responding to people calling Asriel's attack Universal+. His range is Multiversal on the page, no idea what you're trying to fix here.
8. Frisk's tier there seems pretty terrible regardless. 2-C scaling to a "2-C, likely 2-B" character? Seriously? But I can sorta get behind a new key for Frisk at the end of pacifist, since they do seem to be stronger there, after more time's passed, than in the neutral ending. I have no clue why you'd put Neutral!Frisk's feats against Photoshop Flowey lower than Pacifist!Frisk's feats against Photoshop Flowey, they do the same shit there.
9. Not familiar enough with The Anomaly to confirm or deny your proposal here.
10. Mid-Godly Regen makes sense but I don't know why it was put at Low-Godly so I hesitate to accept that.
11. I have no clue what you're talking about with those resistances, honestly.
12. Unsure about the Omnipresence and related stuff, I wasn't in those threads.
13. That Annoying Dog stuff you mentioned has been removed. There wasn't conclusive proof that he's some god who crated everything. There's nothing canon showing him existing outside of the game systems, a character appearing in the joystick config menu is nowhere near enough to make them transcendental over the game, that's just menu decoration. There's no proof that he's unaffected by the omnipresent guys busting reality, there's no statement, demonstration, or implication of that. So Type 5 Acausality is a no-go too.

Sorry if other people in the thread have addressed the OP's points or ones I've made, that OP was already so long I didn't bother reading the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa seems to make sense as usual.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I agree with agnaa aswell.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Since ppl seem like to not understanding some of my points, I'll make them more specific.

1. The SOUL attacks are a thing heavily implied to interest both the SOUL and the attack, since Flowey said that when you gain LV, the SOUL gets stronger, and sans confirmed that even the body gets the boost. Plus, as further proof, when Frisk dies, even their SOUL shatters, meaning that both of them were interested in the fight and attacked at the same time. That's why they have resistenace to SOUL Manipulation, because they treat SOUL attacks as physical ones unlike other verses.
2. I never said "muh is true Light, upgrade them to SoL!!!!", as said before, just the possibility of that attack being SoL exists, since is based on the Sun and the Moon, so the fact that it might be fast as true sunbeams. Plus, @Lord_JJJ made some good points about it adding "possibly Speed of Light" to their profiles.
3. "Using a small fraction of his power" is weirdier than "Supressed" tbh, since the latter is basically the same thing as the first but shorter and more readable.
4. I never said that Flowey and Frisk RESETs alone are in Countless 2-B range, but that we count even the RESETs of the humans which had the DT to RESET and LOAD like these 2, since Flowey got his LOAD powers from an external source. So is obvious that even the timelines created from the previous users of DT before Flowey and Frisk are part of the total cosmology, so I fail to see how that stuff isn't so much to make Countless Timelines.
5. I've no idea tbh, they might be or not new timelines or just some points where you rewind time. I guess that a "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C" is fine at this point.
6. A similar feat was already accepted before
7. I mean that since Chara, a 2-B character, has the True RESET, a thing that is confirmed 100% granting 2-B stats, Asriel should be on 2-B levels as Chara's since he has the True RESET in base as well, so him being 2-B on the same levels as before regardless of this CRT is fine.
8. Photoshop Flowey isn't canon in Pacifist, since is an ending rectoned after his fight and left as never happened, aka just an optional thing and not the true Pacifist ending, that's why PF is a thing just in Neutral run and nothing else.
9. Frisk's DT in base was superior to Flowey's which could recover from EE since any time he dies, due to him lacking a SOUL, he dies without it, aka an EE. And Frisk's MAX EE was so strong that if it can't LOAD, it directly regenerates from Death, and due to Flowey's stuff, Death for DT means also EE, so i fail to see how's not Mid-Godly since Frisk can likely regenerate even without their SOUL like Flowey did with EE but with a faaar weaker method and DT.
10. Since Frisk tanked FP's destruction and overwrite of the timeline, I guess that they resist these haxes since they were unaffected from the timeline rewrite.
11. Chara never implied that they're just the STATs of the Anomaly, they were talking in general about them, meaning that they became the true concept of STATs across all the reality as I've pointed before.
12. Asriel having just Range and Time Manip for that is impossible. No time manip can let someone talk with another in the past, plus Asriel completely covering all the BUTTONs and the space of the fight, in the reality that was shattering in pieces, confirms him having a similar state of existence as Chara, who messed up with the game files too.
13. Annoying Dog is confirmed being the creator from WoG, so he is the supreme being of the verse. Plus him appearing in the Joystic menu is not just decoration if he talks and even says opinon on the seasons, so him having Type 5 Acausality is fine.

 

[KingPin0422]

Alright, I mostly agree with Agnaa here, but I have some input of my own to provide:

1. Hard disagree with scaling Max DT Neutral Frisk to Photoshop Flowey. Frisk cannot do any more than 1 point of damage to Flowey without the souls' aid, and Flowey was definitely holding back because after being defeated, he just loads his file and proceeds to one-shot Frisk multiple times over. That said, I'm fine with scaling Max DT Pacifist Frisk's durability to Asriel.
2. Photoshop Flowey is really weird, because he most likely did affect multiple timelines, but do we have any reason to assume that that isn't just hax? Sure, he destroys Frisk's SAVE FILE, but just because he can access like 7 SAVE FILES himself (those of the six human SOULS plus his own) doesn't necessarily mean that his area of effect can spread throughout all of them at once.
3. I have something to say about the Sans statement, but I'm going to address that separately. I hope no one minds that.
4. Asriel cannot be compared to Chara and I am pretty damn sure that Chara destroying the game goes beyond anything that Asriel or the player ever does. The TRUE RESET has never been shown to affect anything outside of the player's SAVE FILE, whereas Chara definitely destroyed everything, as I will address alongside Sans' statement.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

2. That possibility goes against our current regulations regardless. Possibly too, needs more proof, and it also contradicts the fact that Sound based attacks also outspeed Frisk's soul.

4 I don't think you understand countless all that well. Countless is an amount that can't be expressed in name, the highest possible finite number to give, which is not a thing here. Arguing that either Frisk or Flowey canonically die more than a million times itself is baseless.

6. That was across the universe, not the timeline.

8. What are you talking about? The only run you can achieve without neutral is Genocide. Pacifist needs it, and restarting after it doesn't change that Flowey and Frisk both retain their memory.

9. Flowey still has a sentience, he has DT where he doesn't have a soul, and his body is wounded mortally and not erased. DT is contained in souls, and if it someone's soul was successfully erased so would they DT be. Flowey's DT also comes from a soul, too.

10 Again, Acausality type 1 and maybe existence erasure resistance.

11 that is baseless assumption. Their statement says that they are the emotion felt from a character when their stats increase. That is leaving out two sections and jumping to "they are the stats themselves". It would also make far more thematic sense that Chara is the megalomaniac desire of the player, since you can increase said stats in all routes.

12 Yes it can. Sending messages to the past is time manipulation. And he is not at all similar to Chara in state either...

 

[RethPo]

I agree with true reset being 2-B for reasons ive mentioned on my thread. Agree with mftl+ since frisk dodged attacks being pulled in by that thing.

Everything else im neutral or disagree. Photoshop flowey i disagree with being low 2-C since save files are still not entire timelines. They explicitely only store information from when frisk gained save and load to when he last saves.

 

[Antvasima]

StrymULTRA told me that he is not interested in debating here any more.

Can other knowledgeable members discuss which changes that should and should not be applied here please?

 

[RethPo]

Ahhh.... Well idk about mid godly regen since its done through determination and the soul isnt completely destroyed when frisk regenerates. I do feel outright 2-B should at least be applied since it seems mostly agreed in other threads that flowey creating less than 1000 timelines from save and load makes no sense. Heck, talking to asgore alone took hundreds of reloads iirc. And he solved the problems of every monster in the underground through repeated reloads where there are hundreds to thousands of them so...

 

[Antvasima]

StrymULTRA told me that he is not interested in debating here any more.

Can other knowledgeable members discuss which changes that should and should not be applied here please?

@Agnaa

 

[Agnaa]

@Strym

1. That doesn't mean that they negate durability though. They can affect the soul and still require damaging the body to work, that's how it functions now.
2. That is not enough for a possibly. We don't shit that rating out on every character with anything vaguely to do with light.
3. I'm more worried about the "God Asriel" stuff, sounds like a really weird fanon name.
4. I dunno about that, even if we tried to play it up that'd still probably max in the hundreds of thousands of millions (which is even assuming that there were humans around doing DT shenanigans). It would be far, far below our evidence standard for countless.
5. Fair.
6. That's a power boost explicitly coming from across the universe, that's in no way comparable...
7. That sounds reasonable to me.
8. It definitely is canon, Frisk loaded after it but that doesn't make it non-canon, imo. It's a part of the route.
9. Like I said, I'm just neutral here since I don't remember the argument from the thread that originally downgraded.
10. What destruction and overwrite of the timeline? Destroying the save at the start? Frisk already seemed to be in a place that was unaffected, it didn't seem to be a resistance thing.
11. Again I just wasn't there for the downgrade, I'll let someone else handle this.
12. Dunno what's being talked about here.
13. I think that's been considered too vague to place Annoying Dog as the supreme being of the verse.

Ant: I'm sorry to say that I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what exactly should be implemented. @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @Eficiente @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom and @Crabwhale should all be of more help in this regard.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @Eficiente @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @Crabwhale

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[Andytrenom]

Soul Manipulation: They have it already, only its durability negating properties was removed, which you didn't really give a reason to counter

Speed Upgrade: No, there isn't remotely enough evidence of lightspeed attacks from Knight Knight

Profile merging: They are separate due to being very different characters despite being the same entity, no real opinions on a merger

Cosmology: No real opinion on this, except the fact that we wouldn't officially rank it as countless, we would either calculate it or elaborate on how it works in the AP explanation

Low 2-C Flowey: Fine with me, the Chara scaling was always a problem

New keys for Frisk: Personally don't think it's necessary, there is zero evidence for pacifist Frisk being superior to Flowey so the only thing that changes is durability. As you may guess, this means I disagree with Low 2-C Frisk too

Mid-godly: Mid-Godly is the regenerating from the destruction of mind body and soul, regenerating from just one shouldn't qualify

Resistances: It is possible Flowey just didn't target Frisk with these abilities since he still wanted to toy around with him

Omnipresence: No. Chara's statement is just taken to mean her influence grows stronger as the player's stats increase, not that she's the concept of stats. Your video for Asriel's omnipresence is just a really big attack that reaches the menu options, I have no clue how you're getting omnipresence from that. The call is most likely Flowey mimicking Asriel's voice, not Asriel calling from the future

Annoying Dog: Saikou said it best, Annoying Dog didn't create the reality, he created a game in the reality to serve as a nod to Toby Fox creating Undertale. Existing outside reality isn't type 5 either, you need to be established to be uninteractable due to transcending cause and effect

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

Can somebody summarise what the consensus is for what has and has not been accepted here please?

 

[Eficiente]

Well this should be locked as there's already other big UT going on. Also it's annoying to have once again so many things to evaluate on one CRT, could it be that this is done on purpose to have less staff looking up all the context of a CRT to disagree with things? (If in some CRTs and not necessary this one)

Cosmology:

>sans implies that for each RESET Frisk encounters another one, so there are timelines even for each time a DT user dies

That's speculation, and you shouldn't link that Animo mess.

 

[Theuser789]

I don't care about the actual revision but just because the point was on amino doesn't make it wrong, that's just elitism, multiple people say the same about the very wikia we are on, just discarding things because they are on Vs Battles wikia, so let's not k

 

[Rikimarox2]

I don't care about the actual revision but just because the point was on amino doesn't make it wrong, that's just elitism, multiple people say the same about the very wikia we are on, just discarding things because they are on Vs Battles wikia

That's true. I can't count the amount of times people just discarded any type of information the moment they heard "Vs Battles". I swear, people act like mentioning Vs Battles in any discussion is like saying Voldemort's name out loud.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly...Andy said everything I wanted to

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm, looks like the only thing not rejected was "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C" Flowey (scaling to Chara is bunk, people aren't 100% sure that the save files Flowey creates are real timelines), from my glance over people's posts.

I think that would end up nerfing Asriel too, unless we have him scale to Chara, which KingPin seemed against. I don't think Andy commented on either of these points, though.