Undertale: 0-1 STATs, speed, stamina, and other things!

[Monsters_fight]

We don't currently accept frisk's lowest ap rating to be 8-B so unless that is added to the crt that's definitely a contradiction to the durability also that sort of implies that only one should scale to the other.

Ok, but Frisk 0 ATK/DEF can survive Floweys attack which is High 8-C+

The only two who survive have higher hp supporting my point.

Ice has around the same HP as Moldsmal and he can tank way less hits so no
This is because of the DEF in the Code.
Moldsmal and Shyren have a way higher DEF in code than Ice, Dummy, Whimsun and Vulkin, this is why they tank more hits
but this is irrelevant because the code stats don't matter, only the lore ones.

The Flowey harming Frisk point still stands and it works

Characters one shooting other characters is possible in the same tier, Medium Determined Frisk can one shoot weaker High 8-C+ (Im not talking about 9-A Frisk nor 9-A enemies)

 

[Lou_change]

This would effect all scaling in the game I am pretty sure.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Frisk can one shot whimsun and most other zero defense monsters except Moldsmal and Shyren using an attack stat of 0

Frisk varies via DT, so doesn't really matter. Also, some are less willing to fight and that kind of stuff.

If the only reason it's not meant to be taken literally is that he doesn't move that makes the narrator provide around 9 outright false statements and should probably have us apply similar scrutiny to stuff like Undyne's boulder suplex.

I don't get whatever you are saying.

I'll have him tell you everything

That's cool, but I still don't see how it is appropriate for the point.

 

[Lou_change]

Frisk varies via DT, so doesn't really matter. Also, some are less willing to fight and that kind of stuff.

What is Frisk more determination to kill Whimsun than survive flowey?

I don't get whatever you are saying.

1. What is your reasoning for these quotes not being literal.
"Papyrus is preparing a bone attack."

"Papyrus prepares a non-bone attack then spends a minute fixing his mistake."

2. If it is literally just because we don't see Papyrus's sprite move. That should apply to the following quotes that are consistent with what we see in his fight.
"Papyrus remembered a bad joke Sans told and is frowning."

"Papyrus dabs some Bone Cologne behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs marinara sauce behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Bishie Cream behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Anime Powder behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Cute Juice behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Attraction Slime behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Beauty Yogurt behind his ear."

What about Undyne's boulder feat?

That's cool, but I still don't see how it is appropriate for the point.

His attacks are all physical objects he literally has sitting in a box

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

What is Frisk more determination to kill Whimsun than survive flowey?

They had minimal DT as they were not in the battle mode.

1. What is your reasoning for these quotes not being literal.
"Papyrus is preparing a bone attack."

"Papyrus prepares a non-bone attack then spends a minute fixing his mistake."

It’s not like he found some literal bones and built a mechanism to make them move at Frisk, he just prepared to spawn them and cannot really make any non-bone attack (besides “absolutely normal attack”).

2. If it is literally just because we don't see Papyrus's sprite move. That should apply to the following quotes that are consistent with what we see in his fight.
"Papyrus remembered a bad joke Sans told and is frowning."

"Papyrus dabs some Bone Cologne behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs marinara sauce behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Bishie Cream behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Anime Powder behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Cute Juice behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Attraction Slime behind his ear."

"Papyrus dabs MTT-Brand Beauty Yogurt behind his ear."

He later realized he didn’t have an ear.

What about Undyne's boulder feat?

I don’t really know, my argument was more on the fact that he is not literally going somewhere, preparing the attack, building a machine to move stuff and then returning, just standing as bones move by themselves — no, the bones are just his magic that he moves. Sans created and moved way more bones while dodging (without even counting GBs and other stuff), same with others’ magic.

His attacks are all physical objects he literally has sitting in a box

This just means he can make his attacks be physical and be put in the box?..
I don’t see how it is relevant to the discussion.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Btw, this thread is old asf, a whole year had passed yet it is not concluded…

 

[Lou_change]

It’s not like he found some literal bones and built a mechanism to make them move at Frisk, he just prepared to spawn them and cannot really make any non-bone attack (besides “absolutely normal attack”).

Magical moving the bones after preparing them.

He later realized he didn’t have an ear.

he still tries presumably unless we start considering the narrator being willing to outright lie to the player.

This just means he can make his attacks be physical and be put in the box?..

he has a box of bones in his room made of attacks he never performed?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Magical moving the bones after preparing them.

Yeah, preparing where they will move, not literally having them. Where the hell did he even get this amount of bones if not spawning them?

he still tries presumably unless we start considering the narrator being willing to outright lie to the player.

I’m just kidding. That’s why it striked out.

he has a box of bones in his room made of attacks he never performed?

He never used in fight, not never performed. They must have been created by him.

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah, preparing where they will move, not literally having them. Where the hell did he even get this amount of bones if not spawning them?

I don't know maybe the box holding his attacks
They are explicitly the attacks he used according to the dialogue if you fight him and the attacks he was going to use if you didn't fight him.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I don't know maybe the box holding his attacks
They are explicitly the attacks he used according to the dialogue if you fight him and the attacks he was going to use if you didn't fight him.

And? They are still made by him.
Or is your argument trying to help my point by saying he didn’t even spawn them mid-fight but rather just moved unlike others yet still got tired? Well, thanks for help then, ig.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn't it more likely that Flowey deliberately held back on that attack, ya know, to drop his friendly guise and taunt Frisk one final time?

After some rethinking, this does have a lot of sense, although given that it is not explicitly stated, there is still a possibility that it just happened to be that Flowey did not just kill Frisk with one pellet, so he used this opportunity to yap.
Maybe "At least 9-A, possibly at most High 8-C" should work better?

 

[Monsters_fight]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

0-1 STATS buff​

Everything from here is a supportive.

• Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely survive Flowey's attacks... although it is possible that instead of actually killing Frisk, he deliberately left them 1 HP just to mock, which is something that he does as Omega Flowey, but there is no actual concerete evidence that he held back there specifically.
• Sans had possibly blocked the attack from the heavily suppressed Omega Flowey, since his bones are softer like the one we see that blocked Flowey's bullets compared to Papyrus' regular bones, which are all sharp edges, unless it is Papyrus' "absolutely normal attack". Flowey, despite holding back, was still able to damage Frisk with Great Determination, so his bullets in this state should be comparable to their durability.

With all this, everyone 0-1 STATs should upgrade from current "9-A" to "At least 9-A, likely at most High 8-C". This includes Alphys.

Changed this + bump

 

[Monsters_fight]

Changed this + bump

Shouldn't Alphys straight up be High 8-C+?
Currently we scale her equal to Sans because we thought Sans was the one blocked Flowey´s attack with the bone, but now we know its Papyrus, so she should scale at most to Papyrus

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Shouldn't Alphys straight up be High 8-C+?

True, forgot about that.

Currently we scale her equal to Sans because we thought Sans was the one blocked Flowey´s attack with the bone, but now we know its Papyrus, so she should scale at most to Papyrus

My proposal that it is ambigious whether Sans or Paps did it. And blocking something the other person blocked should not scale, it should scale to attack itself. The reasoning just should be "Blocked heavily suppressed Flowey's attacks, who damaged Frisk with Great Determination".

Update: Fixed the OP.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Blocked heavily suppressed Flowey's attacks, who damaged Frisk with Great Determination

I'd make it instead:

"Alongside Toriel and Undyne, he seemingly blocked the attacks of a heavily suppressed Photoshop Flowey, who damaged Frisk with Great Determination, although it's unclear whether it was him or his brother."

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

"Alongside Toriel and Undyne

I think this part is kinda pointless.

he seemingly blocked the attacks of a heavily suppressed Photoshop Flowey, who damaged Frisk with Great Determination, although it's unclear whether it was him or his brother."

Sure.

Also, bump.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think this part is kinda pointless.

It's to make more clear he's still comparable to a degree to these characters and not a fucktillion times weaker.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It's to make more clear he's still comparable to a degree to these characters and not a fucktillion times weaker.

I disagree tbh.

If you have a 9-B attack and two shields that blocked it, with one of them being 2-A, this does not mean a second shield is 2-A. It can easily be 7-A. 8-C, or just 9-B. So comparing his blocking to others is not really a good or supportive proof.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yet another bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Checking again the 0 DEF instances, I do think that 0 and 1 should be "At most High 8-C+", because of:

• Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits (Feat + was yellow, so it's a strong point)
• Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits (Feat)
• Whimsun (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)
• Ice (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)

In total, combined with Frisk's Feat, it's 3 feats against 2 Anti Feats.

Meaning that 0 and 1 join the "At most High 8-C+" gang.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Onboard with the Moldsmal scaling, definitely feel like it's a bit more concrete than the Flowey stuff.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Onboard with the Moldsmal scaling, definitely feel like it's a bit more concrete than the Flowey stuff.

Flowey is more a supportive feat.

Sans' stuff also technically does work as such, but it's too stretchy to include it in a profile as he's High 8-C+ anyway.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Checking again the 0 DEF instances, I do think that 0 and 1 should be "At most High 8-C+", because of:

• Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits (Feat + was yellow, so it's a strong point)
• Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits (Feat)
• Whimsun (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)
• Ice (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)

In total, combined with Frisk's Feat, it's 3 feats against 2 Anti Feats.

Meaning that 0 and 1 join the "At most High 8-C+" gang.

Didn’t know about half of these having 0 DEF… also weird that we one-shot some and need 3 hits for some. Like, you seriously telling me Frisk was more powerful against Dummy than Shyren, Toby?
Anyways, this is good enough, so I’ll add that (when I have time).

 

[Monsters_fight]

Checking again the 0 DEF instances, I do think that 0 and 1 should be "At most High 8-C+", because of:

• Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits (Feat + was yellow, so it's a strong point)
• Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits (Feat)
• Whimsun (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)
• Ice (0 DEF): one-shotted (Yellow so doesn't really count)

In total, combined with Frisk's Feat, it's 3 feats against 2 Anti Feats.

Meaning that 0 and 1 join the "At most High 8-C+" gang.

Awesome