Undertale shitton of revisions.

[Theuser789]

The barrier has an insane durability, the human world and all the humans behind the barrier all were erased, even tho 7 alone created the barrier, but those were together and all of humanity is now alone.

There's no problem with this tho, the barrier can only break with the power of 7 souls, you are implying humanity is as strong as a monster with 7 souls here, which is obviously wrong, and the barrier was created by a Magic Spell from magicians, it's very clearly a special ability that we can't assume would make humanity as strong as it just because they built it

So yeah, the barrier being that durable is fine when you already need Asriel level of power to break it

Edit: Didn't see the last post when typing this

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know how's that, but, for the sake of simplicity and having things done, I'm gonna drop that matter for this thread and bring it some other day. We should focus on the "Undertale having 1 timeline" part, I would like to hear what @Andytrenom and @The_real_cal_howard have to say about it (if they read the stuff about it, which starts here and continues with the rest of the thread but is relatively short).

Well, because Flowey seems to easily destroy the timeline, while Asriel says that he's going to do it but completely fails to.

There's no problem with this tho, the barrier can only break with the power of 7 souls, you are implying humanity is as strong as a monster with 7 souls here, which is obviously wrong, and the barrier was created by a Magic Spell from magicians, it's very clearly a special ability that we can't assume would make humanity as strong as it just because they built it

Why is that obviously wrong? It takes the power of 7 human souls to break, why would that be so far below humanity?

 

[Eficiente]

Well, because Flowey seems to easily destroy the timeline, while Asriel says that he's going to do it but completely fails to.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I take all those sentences in P.Flowey's AP as wrong.

 

[Agnaa]

So P. Flowey destroying Frisk's savefile at the start of the fight isn't Low 2-C?

 

[Eficiente]

No. I can explain it more easily with this comparison:

Imagine the file of a video in mp4 as a timeline. You edit stuff in a video editor to create a video, you can create a process of things A, B & C in the first 3 seconds, save the video, create a process of things D & E in the next 2 seconds, load back to where only things A, B & C existed, and then create other different things in the next 2 seconds. But, which is bigger?; Any file of a save or the whole video? The video will always be bigger. Why? The video is the whole information organized together, the saves are how to organize that info, emphasis on how to, saves aren't that information. In fact, all saves of a video need that video to work, without it or part of it, what are they going to organize?

SAVEs were never said nor implied in Undertale to be timelines, and this is unlikely to be the case given what a save is and even what its inspirations could have been (saving honestly in a game, saving an image or video in a program, or saving and loading dishonestly in a game via emulator, the saves are all the same, just organizing), yes after a load in any "product" it may look that, as the possibilities can be others, the "product" is another all together, but the save never had the "product" stored inside itself (that's insane), only some info on how to organize it, the user made that "other product".

If in Undertale P.Flowey could SAVE a point A in time, make a domino effect of things 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5, all numbers needing the previous to exist, then Flowey SAVEs a point B in time, then LOADs back at point A, then makes wrong the domino effect of things, having 1, 44, 0 & -20, and then LOADed back at point B, then congratulations, that future should not exist and what he does is way more than going back in time. But it doesn't prove SAVEs are timelines, a video editor can do the same. P.Flowey would just have Causality Manip, which structures events in the past, present and isn't a Low 2-C feat every time someone uses it. Going back to the video=timeline comparison, a video is all the time in a timeline, all the space, and all the causality from beginning to end, and a save is just all the causality from beginning to end, with no time and space. Now, in Undertale, I'm pretty it's just Time Manip to go back in time, but if it isn't then the SAVE is not causality from the beginning to end of a timeline, it starts when the characters gain their powers and finishes when the characters are done creating their SAVEs, the rest of the future of their to create and their past before having their powers is never touched.

 

[Agnaa]

So... Unknown, at least 9-A P. Flowey?

 

[Eficiente]

I take no pleasure in it even tho I knew his stats were wrong from the first time I saw them years ago, but yes.

 

[Agnaa]

Well I can't argue against it, but these downgrades feel so significant that I'd want a lot of the knowledgeable members I tried pinging earlier to okay it.

 

[RethPo]

>This doesnt refute my point. Youre using shattering across time and space as a refute to there being a multiverse. Yet this can apply to either one. If gaster were shattered across time and space across multiple universes, the language they used in that instance would still work. The statement doesnt prove or disprove either possibility.

>Him referring to gaster is headcannon, there is no proven connection between them as i explained. My only point with fun values is that if frisk goes back in time to the reset point, not even that far back, and a number is given dictating what happens in these timelines and who appears. Its virtually set in stone whether or not a character even appear altogether. Frisk isnt even going that far back for events like this to have a butterfly effect change. Although the followers can appear and disappear at will and most of it is random phone calls. Though goner kids dialogue if referring to himself (most likely) is pretty clearly hinting at fun values being timelines.

>I did read your comments. I just brought up that the way sans referrs to timelines is in a present tense and pans towards existing timelines than the abc examples you brought up. Also sans referring to the anomaly in the space time continuum is referring to you who can only interact with one timeline at a time in this scenario so i wouldnt call this much of a contradiction. Calm down and stop accusing people of bias just because they disagree. I dont care if theyre low 2-C or notand you bring up some good point. Im just bringing up the existing arguments holding undertale being a multiverse, but it seems youre barely listening. You didnt even refute what i just said here

>For the timeline part. "The world" has been used to refer to the game itself so i wouldnt call it inaccurate. Though he does seem to use purging the timeline in a present tense it isnt really hammered in much that he did. The barrier outright scales to asriels full power being whats required to shatter it, who can destroy all of humanity, so the barrier being low 2-C if anything is set in stone, not to mention asriel planned to true reset the entire timeline, practically ignoring the barrier. Id say his base form being likely low 2-C works well. I agree with what you said about save files. I find save files being actual timelines in general to be questionable. Flowey i feel works best at simply unknown.

For agnaas question i am talking about flowey being able to teleport frisk past the barrier here

 

[Theuser789]

Why is that obviously wrong? It takes the power of 7 human souls to break, why would that be so far below humanity?

Because one human soul is strong enough to destroy a entire village of humans, so it isn't some linear thing, this is why humanity feared what a monster could do with a human soul

You are legit arguing humanity is stronger than Asriel or any monster with multiple human souls, which would downgrade literally everyone

 

[RethPo]

Yeah. Humans dont scale 1 on 1 to their souls. Otherwise humans on their own including frisk would have the power of every monster in the underground and one shot everybody. Still doesnt make sense that asriel didnt just straight up absorb 7 billion souls

 

[Theuser789]

My [headcanon] is that a monster doesn't get stronger after 7 souls and that's the magic number, so absorbing more wouldn't do much

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Only thing I could find related to the number of timelines directly was patched text Sans never actually says in-game, so rip for searching. And it just proves Low 2-C anyways.

 

[Theuser789]

Pretty sure this dialogue is already in the game no?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I definitely don't remember the "consuming timelines" part. Might need to check it out again, but I don't think I'd forget that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He still says it

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I swear that was not there when I played it. Maybe it takes dying nough times or something? Or was added in an update.

But yeah, that's neat.

 

[RethPo]

Yeah sans says all of this in game. The looking pissed part being if you attack him after already sparing him previously. Dont think it really changes much brought up so far though.

 

[Eficiente]

It's in the game.

And it just proves Low 2-C anyways.

So, I'm gonna explain this if anyone didn't catch up, saying "consuming timelines" refers to this thing the anomaly in the space-time continuum is doing over and over (not Chara destroying the game), Sans is bringing up the timelines "stopping and starting..." "until suddenly, everything ends" previously said. They're no more without being blown up.

This should all be very clear for those who read the first thing I had to say about Undertale having 1 timeline in this thread.

 

[Eficiente]

So anyway, the profiles would look like this

• O.Flowey: Unknown, at least 9-A
• Asriel: Low 2-C
• Chara: Low 2-C
• Frisk's peak AP: Unknown, at least 9-A
• Frisk's peak durability: Low 2-C

If someone can prove that O.Flowey can LOAD into the future and not just into the past (I think he can based on the scene after his fake defeat, where he LOADs a lot of times into Frisk getting killed, but I may be getting things wrong) then he should have Causality Manip. Frisk should have Extrasensory Perception based on all the sh*t they could feel during Asriel's fight (I don't remember well if they showed the power before it, it could be).

I can make the edits, the rest is on all of you. I look forward the users I called reading the thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think he does alternate between different save and loads, though I'll check some videos of his battle to be sure.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Nope, he never uses the save ability out of order.

He uses save file 2 in normal battle, uses 3 when you slam him to zero HP and kills you a few times, and then uses 6 while he has you surrounded by pellets and is mocking you.

 

[Daddybrawl]

In the fights, I believe he can LOAD you into getting hit by certain attacks (namely that weird Mouth Laser thing), even if you weren’t hit by them earlier. May be wrong, though

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

In the fights, I believe he can LOAD you into getting hit by certain attacks (namely that weird Mouth Laser thing), even if you weren’t hit by them earlier. May be wrong, though

Oh yes, that's what he uses Save File 2 for. But you just go back in time and he aims for where you originally dodged to.

 

[Theuser789]

I feel like you need far more support to peform such a big downgrade, so they should definitvely comment first before anything happens

 

[Eficiente]

We're waiting just that. It can annoyingly go in circles if they don't read the thread but I always prefer to play fair.

 

[Theuser789]

Ok, cool

 

[Elizhaa]

I largely agree with Andy's evaluations.

On the new tiers, if saves aren't timelines, I am largely neutral but I am not against the changes proposed by Eficiente. I will be honest I am not fully familiar with all the cosmology when compared to those like Saikou.

 

[RethPo]

Saikou seems to disagree with 1 timeline when i asked him but he doesnt wanna debate here atm. So might wanna get andy, cal or crabs here again see what they think about eficientes proposal. Maybe tagging them again or contacting them by message wall. Or make low 2-C downgrades its own revision. Im still neutral on that and dont really have the time to help much more atm.

 

[Eficiente]

If you gave Saikou some summary of this then that explains why he told me to lick his balls when I requested him to give an evaluation about it. I can't express this enough but people need to read all of this, I consider my proposals as wild as they're accurate and so anyone believing the UT stats as they are can logically laugh at what I'm saying here when seeing it at glance. That's not even to say anything about the internal bias we all have, I had a hard time saying what should be obvious, I can't imagine how others feel about all this. I need reliable users to properly understand this and judge it with sheer reason.

And that covers why I won't bring this to other thread, that would just be chaos. Any kind of user will be able to comment with any level of understanding over what I expressed, many will express to disagree and dislike the matter while making quite clear that they didn't understand it by way of clearly missing or misunderstanding things in a wacky matter. Whatever of those responses is the biggest will get support of similar people, as well as them actually reading that shorter thing. We'll then response to that, and everyone will read our response, but we would only be responding to specific things, not saying all the OP all over again, and so it will be a pointless waste of time that will go in circles over and over again and become a bigger thread than this one. Nobody will empathize with the users who will be waste their time the most in those circumstances nor care about how everything will just be harder to read for everyone. None of this is a "it could happen", is a "it will happen", I could even give names of the users who will see this and only take that I don't want people to disagree with me, those would protagonize what I predicted.

The more effective, shorter to navigate, that will waste less people's time, and that will make everyone talk with more reason is to finish this here.

 

[Theuser789]

You do know that even if you somehow make those changes while hinding them from those people, they are just going to make a "debunk" thread where everything you say will just happen on those threads, even if you are right you are just delaying the inevitable

 

[ElixirBlue]

That kinda came out of nowhere on Eficiente’s part. Context?

I consider my proposals as wild as they're accurate

I need reliable users to properly understand this and judge it with sheer reason.

Hm... Concerning...

 

[Eficiente]

@Theuser789 I'm not "hinding" anything, "those people" would need to read and understand this to talk about it here, otherwise everything will end up being needlessly bigger and that's one of the reasons I prefer to keep it here. A debunk thread would need the people doing it to at least read this, so I don't care.

@ElixirBlue What you say there legit doesn't make any sense. You say something came out of nowhere yet you don't know the context. The first thing quoted just means that I take my proposals as pretty big and also as accurate, the second just aims to have users considered to be reliable to understand and judge this without internal bias or tradition getting in the way, there's nothing concerning about it.

Both comments are pretty unnecessary here and so I request both of you to delete them, I'll delete this one after that.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Er... What I was pointing out is that your behavior in the way you wrote your last post seemed concerning to me. Now you want posts to be deleted?

(Taking screenshots just in case...)

I’m just confused how the post above you got you so angry when you seemed calm before.

 

[Theuser789]

Keeping a gigantic downgrade on a thread that was completely unrelated to it until you brought it up and refusing it to make it public because you think are stupid enough to not understand you is hinding it, plain and simple

At least you realize again that this tatic won't work in the long run

 

[Agnaa]

I’m just confused how the post above you got you so angry when you seemed calm before.

wdym it made him angry? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I assumed Eficiente was quoting Saikou, since the rest of the post was writte in a calm tone.

 

[ElixirBlue]

idk, I read it as a rant. I may have had misconception. It’s hard to read tones sometimes.

 

[Eficiente]

I was, Saikou said that. Not that that matters at all as that was a private conversation and he somewhat knows me. So...can we all delete all those comments unnecessary for the CRT? To make it easier to navigate for those who didn't read it?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are some people so angry about the fact that Undertale was downgraded here. Like, they are acting like there was MALICE behind the revisions?

Now, definitely, I think there is room to discuss. For example I wouldn't have an issue with Low 2-C Omega Flowey. I Think it makes sense.

But all the 2-C and 2-B stuff and Lightspeed attacks are laughably innacurate.

 

[Theuser789]

Noone is angry what? This sounds like projection, I am only pointing out that making a big downgrade in a thread completely unrelated to the OP, on purpose so that certain "people" won't join, is kinda pointless. You can downgrade away but the way it's being done is kinda dumb