Undertale: 0-1 STATs, speed, stamina, and other things!

[TheOrangeGuy09]

0-1 STATS buff​

From this post:

• Moldsmal (0 DEF): 2 hits (Feat + was yellow, so it's a strong point)
• Vulkin (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Dummy (0 DEF): one-shotted (Anti Feat)
• Shyren (0 DEF): 3 hits (Feat)

So we have 2 feats and 2 anti-feats, but there is way more supporting stuff, like strikethrough text from post this post and also stuff belowl:

• Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely surviveFlowey's attacks... although it is possible that instead of actually killing Frisk, he deliberately left them 1 HP just to mock, which is something that he does as Omega Flowey, but there is no actual concerete evidence that he held back there specifically.
• Sanshad possibly blocked the attack from theheavily suppressed Omega Flowey, since his bones are softer like the one we see that blocked Flowey's bullets compared to Papyrus' regular bones, which are all sharp edges, unless it is Papyrus' "absolutely normal attack". Flowey, despite holding back, was still able to damageFrisk with Great Determination, so his bullets in this state should be comparable to their durability.

Also, anti-feats listed above can generally be explained by neither Dummy or Vulkin really wanting to harm you (at least on a lesser level than other monsters). Vulkin assumes it's attacks are just helping you (like thinking his lava will heal or his lightning attacks will give a helpful speed up [while the latter is true, he still drops the fact they kill Frisk]). while Dummy is just bored out of its mind, does not attack at all, and just leaves if you do nothing interesting at all.

With all this, everyone 0-1 STATs should upgrade from current "9-A" ratings to "At most High 8-C".

Alphys buff​

Should scale solidly to High 8-C (Blocked an attack from heavily suppressed Omega Flowey, who, despite holding back, was still able to damage Frisk with Great Determination)

Speed buff​

Napstablook's magic tears are comparable to Frisk's movement in Waterfall + Mad Dummy cannot react to them even after some seconds of getting damaged, thinking the best option is just to leave, which is logical given he lives in the Waterfall. This would make all of characters Massively Hypersonic+... although this probably kills the consistency of this rating, idrc.

Stamina revisions​

First of all, add to Papyrus the fact that he is "usually too busy to sleep", which makes his current Superhuman stamina more consistent. Secondly, monsters get exhausted from using attacks, meaning anyone who attacks more than Papyrus overall should upscale from him in Stamina. This would solidify Undyne, Asgore, Toriel, Omega Flowey, Muffet, and Mettaton's justifications. This would also upscale Sans from Average to Superhuman, as his fight uses way more attacks than Papyrus, and he also dodges unlike his brother. This is also supported by the fact that he can still talk and walk away even after getting 9999999 damage.
These two ghosts have their Stamina ratings they shouldn't have for no reason.
Mad Dummy can keep his Superhuman stamina for displaying more magic than Paps in his battle (same as Sans). Napstablook though... ig he will just have to stay at Unknown, likely Superhuman (Should be likely comparable to his cousins).

Some abilities for characters​

• Napstablook:
  • Danmaku (Can spam with them across nearly all of the battlefield, making dodging virtually impossible)
  • Self-Healing (Napstablook has "ghost food", and unlike regular food, monster food turns into energy when eaten, thus healing any damages to the body and soul)
  • Acid Manipulation (Napstablook can attack people with acid tears)
  • Text Manipulation (Can use text as an "attack")
  • Statistics Reduction (Lowered their own HP so that Frisk could feel better)
  • Dimensional Storage (Given that he is user of UnderNet, he should have access to the dimensional boxes, which can be accessed even via the phone)
• Papyrus:
  • Healing (Heals Frisk to full health after they are captured)
  • Creation and Summoning (Summoned Annoying Dog and created skateboard to use as an attack)
  • Fourth Wall Breaking (Refers to the game's controls,multiple times, wants to know when he will appear in the game at the end of the demo)
  • Preparation (Made multiple puzzles to stop Frisk)
  • His power sensing should be Extrasensory Perception
  • Dimensional Storage (Has cellphonewhich gives access tothe dimensional boxes)
• Toriel
  • Dimensional Storage (Has cellphonewhich gives access tothe dimensional boxes)
  • Social Influencing (Made Froggit not fight by just looking angrily)
• Alphys' Dimensional Storage (Has cellphonewhich gives access tothe dimensional boxes)
• Combat-Applicable Fourth Wall Breaking...
  • Asgore (Destroyed MERCY button)
  • Asriel (Can remove all buttons except SAVE)
  • Possibly Mad Dummy (Planned to fight "forever")
• Sans:
  • Power Nullification (Him not extending turn prevents Frisk from using any power like Information Analysis (see his profile on Fourth Wall Breaking)
  • Dimensional Storage (Has cellphonewhich gives access tothe dimensional boxes)
• Royal Guards Danmaku (Here)
• DogiSummoning (Can summon two (somehow) Annoying Dogs for fight) Weapon Mastery (Here, I think)
• Flowey Stealth Mastery
  • Spoiler: JUSTIFICATION

    Flowey has been shown to stalk the player from the beginning to end of the journey, you can only see it if you back track at certain rooms. On most people's 1st play throughs in mid-late 2010s, most people wouldn't notice Flowey's stalking due to this requirement to where they'resurprised when Asgore's psychopathic son decides to kill him last minute (although I'm pretty sure there could be other explanations to why people would get surprised by this if you guys explain stuff here). There's also the fact it's implied that Azzy's mother and father doesn't know that Flowey is Asriel and that Sans doesn't know Papyrus is talking to Flowey, not an echo Flower.
    Within this context, it's pretty clear that Flowey doesn't make his presence very known during Frisk's time in the underground with the exception of the player, Papyrus and subjective exception of maybe Alphys. He even uses his presence in the shadows to do a surprise attack here in the true pacifist route and to kill Asgore when the player's guard is down [linked in the 1st paragraph].
    All archived here.

Sans' Intelligence​

It should be straight up Extraordinary Genius. His current justification, especially reading faces, is beyond human limits. Additionally, he can even know if Frisk kills someone after the first judgement just to see his reaction.

Scaling chain​

Just a small precision, but still.
Currently it is accepted that Flowey couldn't beat Asgore, the reason being that "he never got past him". However, "getting past him" should mean getting the human SOULs in this context. This is the case given that this is a part of the same monologue as well, and he himself on Genocide says that the whole thing is Asgore never showing him SOULs unlike what he does to Frisk, and that he did everything the world had to offer and killed everyone, which would include Asgore as well. Also, given that Flowey is meant to represent us, him killing everyone and Asgore makes sense as well.
The scaling chain should change from Toriel, since she knocks out Flowey, and others scale for the same reasons as now (Asgore would scale since he has the same stats).

Some minor stuff​

It is current accepted for some reason that Sans blocked Flowey's attacks... it could have been Papyrus. The profile should precise that.

I think I wanted smth more, but let's call it a day, I already typed more than I usually do for CRT.
(And hey! I managed to create a CRT before 2025! What an achievement for my lazy bones)

Vote tally (staff-exclusive)​

• Agree: @ActuallySpaceMan42 (on abilities only),
• Disagree:
• Neutral:

 

[Dragonite007]

Mad Dummy stuff is more that Frisk can't really harm him than 4 wall breaking

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mad Dummy stuff is more that Frisk can't really harm him than 4 wall breaking

I mean, he planned for this fight to prolong forever, without option to escape, which can be interpreted as some 4th wall breaking ig? (Really the only reason I added it is bc I remember that it was broadly thought he planned to turn Sans special attack mode)

 

[Dragonite007]

I mean, he planned for this fight to prolong forever, without option to escape, which can be interpreted as some 4th wall breaking ig? (Really the only reason I added it is bc I remember that it was broadly thought he planned to turn Sans special attack mode)

I mean, even If Frisk run, nothing stop Mad Dummy from simply follow the human, just like Undyne did.
The part of the fight prolonging forever is just that no one can harm each other.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Fair ‘nuff, I’ll remove it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely survive Flowey's attacks... pretty obvious, everyone from 0 to 1 ATK should also be "At most High 8-C", albeit very, very barely. Consistent with the fact that current 9-A feat used for Frisk is done without losing health at all.

Isn't it more likely that Flowey deliberately held back on that attack, ya know, to drop his friendly guise and taunt Frisk one final time? Lad is is pretty sadistic.
Wouldn't be a first time that a monster has shown that level of control over their magic, both Papyrus and Mettaton can literally make their attacks deal 0 damage, afterall. Plus, the entire Photoshop Flowey fight is just him toying with Frisk when he could've easily one-shot them (Even doing the whole "Leave at 1HP" thing like in the intro).

There's also the whole circle of death thing really just being 1 undodgeable pellet and Flowey believing it could kill Frisk, even when they're at full HP...

These two ghosts have their Stamina ratings they shouldn't have for no reason.

Maddie can probably keep it with the "Used more magic than Papyrus" justification.

Danmaku (Can spam with them across nearly all of the battlefield, making dodging virtually impossible

Danmaku (Here)

We already have Danmaku as a basic monster ability (Only Asgore really qualifies for it if we follow the actual description tbh).

Acid Manipulation (Napstablook can attack people with acid tears)

Maddie mistook it for acid rain cause it hurt her, don't think it's meant to be taken literally.

Dimensional Storage (Given that he is user of UnderNet, he should have access to the dimensional boxes, which can be accessed even via the phone)

Don't really see how these two connect to each other? Does Napstablook even have a phone?

Summoning (Summoned Annoying Dog)

Summoning (Can summon two (somehow) Annoying Dogs for fight)

Annoying Dog had just stolen Papyrus' Special Attack, so he was already nearby. We also can't claim that Annoying Dog didn't help Papyrus out of his own volition.
The Dogi one is probably just a magic projection rather than the real thing, sorta like how Lesser Dog, Greater Dog and even Endogeny have an Annoying Dog in their attacks.


Everything else looks good tho

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn't it more likely that Flowey just held back on that attack, ya know, to drop his friendly guise and taunt Frisk one final time? Lad is is pretty sadistic.

How exactly Flowey is supposed to know how much is Frisk durable? Sounds assumptuous.
Also, him holding back looks different.

Wouldn't be a first time that a monster has shown such a degree of control over their magic, both Papyrus and Mettaton can literally make their attacks deal 0 damage, afterall.

Not the same thing as nearly killing.

Plus, the entire Photoshop Flowey fight is his him just playing around with Frisk when he could've easily one-shot them (Even doing the whole "Leave at 1HP" thing again).

That's after he gained Godlike powers. In the beginning, we are just some random human kid to them.

There's also the whole circle of death thing really just being 1 undodgeable pellet and Flowey believing it could kill Frisk even when they're at full HP, sooo...

And how does that support your point?

Maddie can probably keep it with the "Used more magic than Papyrus" justification.

He never used any magic, his robots did tbh.

We already have Danmaku as a basic monster ability (Only Asgore really qualifies for it if we follow the actual description tbh).

Eh, never noticed ig. Thx.

Maddie mistook it for acid rain cause it hurt her, don't think it's meant to be taken literally.

How can hurting him imply that it is acid at all?..
These do not even correlate.

Don't really see how these two connect to each other? Does Napstablook even have a phone?

Fine. Ig I'll move this to Alphys, Papyrus and Toriel since they do have one.

Annoying Dog had just stolen Papyrus' Special Attack, so he was already nearby.

We also can't claim that Annoying Dog didn't help Papyrus out of his own volition.

Fair, ig. Also given that Paps wants to do nothing with Annoying Dog.

The Dogi one is probably just a magic projection rather than the real thing, sorta like how Lesser Dog, Greater Dog and even Endogeny have an Annoying Dog in their attacks.

Maybe.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Toriel

• Social Influencing (Made Froggit not fight by just looking angrily)

Also added this.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

How exactly Flowey is supposed to know how much is Frisk durable? Sounds assumptuous.
Also, him holding back looks different.

Papyrus and Mettaton don’t really have any way of knowing that either, but they can still adjust their attacks to deal just enough damage to leave Frisk at exactly 1HP.
People can definitely hold back in different ways. Just because 6 SOULs Flowey (The one in the link above) held back by leaving Frisk with just 1HP doesn’t mean that's the only way he can hold back.

And how does that support your point?

It's equivalent to Frisk just taking one pellet, one pellet would've killed them.

They never used any magic, their robots did tbh.

You're unfamiliar with the Mad Mew Mew fight?

How can hurting them imply that it is acid at all?..
These do not even correlate.

They're droplets that came from the sky, that's why she called it rain.
Since these droplets also hurt her, it makes sense to call it acid rain?
That's how I interpreted it, at least.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Papyrus and Mettaton don’t really have any way of knowing that either, but they can still adjust their attacks to deal just enough damage to leave Frisk at exactly 1HP.

They actually have talked to Frisk a lot and damaged them a lot before doing final “just to 1 HP” dmg. Flowey, on the other hand, just saw us less than a minute ago.
Also MTT’s is more about taking half if you’re talking about that.

People can definitely hold back in different ways. Just because 6 SOULs Flowey (The one in the link above) held back by leaving Frisk with just 1HP doesn’t mean that's the only way he can hold back.

He held back by damaging Frisk by 3-4 HPs or smth, not 19 HPs.

It's equivalent to Frisk just taking one pellet, one pellet would've killed them.

Headcanon.

You're unfamiliar with the Mad Mew Mew fight?

I have my own reasons to hate her… and they have separate keys for a reason.

They're droplets that came from the sky, that's why she called it rain.

Either way doesn’t make sense, since a regular rain is what comes first in mind. Mad Dummy says “acid rain” after several seconds of taking it, there is no reason to believe he would lie.

Since these droplets also hurt her, it makes sense to call it acid rain? That's how I interpreted it, at least.

I don’t recall acid being stated to harm ghosts, only magic…

 

[ShionAH]

Seems fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah... No.

Everything from here is a supportive.
Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely survive Flowey's attacks... pretty obvious, everyone from 0 to 1 ATK should also be "At most High 8-C", albeit very, very barely. Consistent with the fact that current 9-A feat used for Frisk is done without losing health at all.

Humans aren't "At most 9-B" for barely surviving being hit from cars. I don't think this is a good example as it's clear that Flowey is massively superior and is holding back quite a lot.

"But he didn't know how strong Frisk is!" did you forget he knew Chara? Right now Chara is assumed to be comparable to Frisk because of them being a human like them, and I don't think human children with baseline DT should be that apart in power.

Count me in disagreement here.

Napstablook's magic tears are comparable to Frisk's movement in Waterfall + Mad Dummy cannot react to them even after some seconds of getting damaged, thinking the best option is just to leave, which is logical given he lives in the Waterfall. This would make all of characters Massively Hypersonic+... although this probably kills the consistency of this rating, idrc.

I already explained before why this is wrong.

Mad Dummy was off guard and too angry to properly react, they didn't even bother to dodge Frisk's attacks either.

Disagree with this too.

Rest is stuff I either agree with or don't care enough to argue against.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also weren't you supposed to revise the whole "Asgore > Flowey" thing, or did you change your mind on it?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They actually have talked to Frisk a lot and damaged them a lot before doing final “just to 1 HP” dmg. Flowey, on the other hand, just saw us less than a minute ago.

Not necessarily? You can just go in with 2HP and Papyrus will weaken his first attack into only doing 1 damage, same with Mettaton (Green Tile fight).

He held back by damaging Frisk by 3-4 HPs or smth, not 19 HPs.

Photoshop Flowey also held back by dealing just enough damage to leave Frisk at 1HP here. By your logic, the Flowey in the "Don't Give Up" sequence couldn't have been holding back, because apparently, Flowey can only hold back in one specific way. That’s how this argument comes across right now.

I have my own reasons to hate her… and they have separate keys for a reason.

Uh-huh... Well, Maddie was incorporeal and not fused to her body in either fight, so I don't see why her stamina would change. And now that you mention it, the others Dummies in the Mad Dummy fight were indeed just Maddie's bullets, which makes sense given they just vanish the moment Frisk touches them.

Either way doesn’t make sense, since a regular rain is what comes first in mind. Mad Dummy says “acid rain” after several seconds of taking it, there is no reason to believe they would lie.

I don’t recall acid being stated to harm ghosts, only magic…

The fact that she’s hurt by it, something that doesn’t typically happen with regular rain?

Maybe because she was using the term figuratively?

I already explained before why this is wrong.

Mad Dummy was off guard and too angry to properly react, they didn't even bother to dodge Frisk's attacks either.

The tears do move about as fast as Frisk in that fight, and I doubt Maddie would really mistake it for rain if she could statue them either.

 

[Monsters_fight]

0-1 STATS buff​

Everything from here is a supportive.
Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely survive Flowey's attacks... pretty obvious, everyone from 0 to 1 ATK should also be "At most High 8-C", albeit very, very barely. Consistent with the fact that current 9-A feat used for Frisk is done without losing health at all.

Speed buff​

Napstablook's magic tears are comparable to Frisk's movement in Waterfall + Mad Dummy cannot react to them even after some seconds of getting damaged, thinking the best option is just to leave, which is logical given he lives in the Waterfall. This would make all of characters Massively Hypersonic+... although this probably kills the consistency of this rating, idrc.

Stamina revisions​

Buff​

First of all, add to Papyrus the fact that he is "usually too busy to sleep", which makes his current Superhuman stamina more consistent. Secondly, monsters get exhausted from using attacks, meaning anyone who attacks more than Papyrus overall should upscale from him in Stamina. This would solidify Undyne, Asgore, Toriel, Omega Flowey, Muffet, and Mettaton's justifications. This would also upscale Sans from Average to Superhuman, as his fight uses way more attacks than Papyrus, and he also dodges unlike his brother. This is also supported by the fact that he can still talk and walk away even after getting 9999999 damage.

Nerf​

These two ghosts have their Stamina ratings they shouldn't have for no reason.

Some abilities for characters​

• Napstablook:
  • Danmaku (Can spam with them across nearly all of the battlefield, making dodging virtually impossible)
  • Self-Healing (Napstablook has "ghost food", and unlike regular food, monster food turns into energy when eaten, thus healing any damages to the body and soul)
  • Acid Manipulation (Napstablook can attack people with acid tears)
  • Text Manipulation (Can use text as an "attack")
  • Statistics Reduction (Lowered their own HP so that Frisk could feel better)
  • Dimensional Storage (Given that he is user of UnderNet, he should have access to the dimensional boxes, which can be accessed even via the phone)
• Papyrus:
  • Healing (Heals Frisk to full health after they are captured)
  • Creation and Summoning (Summoned Annoying Dog and created skateboard to use as an attack)
  • Fourth Wall Breaking (Refers to the game's controls,multiple times, wants to know when he will appear in the game at the end of the demo)
  • Preparation (Made multiple puzzles to stop Frisk)
  • His power sensing should be Extrasensory Perception
  • Dimensional Storage (Has cellphone which gives access to the dimensional boxes)
• Toriel
  • Dimensional Storage (Has cellphone which gives access to the dimensional boxes)
  • Social Influencing (Made Froggit not fight by just looking angrily)
• Alphys' Dimensional Storage (Has cellphone which gives access to the dimensional boxes)
• Combat-Applicable Fourth Wall Breaking...
  • Asgore (Destroyed MERCY button)
  • Asriel (Can remove all buttons except SAVE)
  • Possibly Mad Dummy (Planned to fight "forever")
• Sans' Power Nullification: Him not extending turn prevents Frisk from using any power like Information Analysis (see his profile on Fourth Wall Breaking).
• Royal Guards Danmaku (Here)
• Dogi Summoning (Can summon two (somehow) Annoying Dogs for fight) Weapon Mastery (Here, I think)

Sans' Intelligence​

It should be straight up Extraordinary Genius. His current justification, especially reading faces, is beyond human limits. Additionally, he can even know if Frisk kills someone after the first judgement just to see his reaction.

Some minor stuff​

It is current accepted for some reason that Sans blocked Flowey's attacks... it can (and should be) Papyrus. Consistent with the fact that even under Asriel control, Sans does not attack.

I think I wanted smth more, but let's call it a day, I already typed more than I usually do for CRT.
(And hey! I managed to create a CRT before 2025! What an achievement for my lazy bones)

I agree with everything without counting the crossed stuff

 

[Monsters_fight]

Also, assuming Papyrus was the one who blocked Flowey's attacks it means Alphys is at least comparable to Papyrus, not Sans. This means even if the 0-1 stats buff doesn't happen, Alphys will still be High 8-C+, because we have Alphys = Sans in the wiki because of that, so now she will scale to Papyrus. Not to mention blocking Floweys attacks alone should be a High 8-C+ feat.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Not to mention blocking Floweys attacks alone should be a High 8-C+ feat.

That was Low 2-C Flowey, he already absorbed the 6 Human SOULs and was basically just screwing around the entire time.

 

[Monsters_fight]

That was Low 2-C Flowey, he already absorbed the 6 Human SOULs and was basically just screwing around the entire time.

Fine. Low 2-C Alphys
He was indeed holding back, but his petals should still be High 8-C+. The petals Photoshop F use are different in design than the ones Flowey Base uses

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Thread 'Why doesn't Flowey UT have stealth mastery?'

Dec 7, 2024

^^^. As a person who knows the basics of UT, since Azzy has shown to be relatively and intentionally hidden from a lot of the monsters in the underground and even Frisk in your first playthroughs of UT...

Why does Flowey not have stealth mastery?

• H3110l12345I20
• asriel dreemurr (flowey) questions and answers thread stealth mastery undertale
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Questions and Answers

This is basic knowledge for anyone who's played through the game. Azz pretty much stalks the player throughout the journey and everyone to where his parents and Sans doesn't know his existence. If anyone wants, I could pull up scans in several days

 

[DaReaperMan]

Fine. Low 2-C Alphys
He was indeed holding back, but his petals should still be High 8-C+. The petals Photoshop F use are different in design than the ones Flowey Base uses

I want you to go replay or rewatch the Omega Flowey fight. Go ahead.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I want you to go replay or rewatch the Omega Flowey fight. Go ahead.

In Photoshop Flowey´s fight, Flowey uses the big petals, which are bigger than the soul itself. In the pacifist route, Photoshop Flowey uses the same petals that Flowey uses at the start of the game, which are way smaller.

Now that I think of it, the only thing that changes pretty much is the size, but I could still argue the petals that P. Flowey uses in the pacifist route are the holding-back petals he uses at the beginning of the game.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Humans aren't "At most 9-B" for barely surviving being hit from cars.

There is a difference from getting all your bones dead and becoming disabled for your life and having just 1 HP. Frisk has 2-B justification for barely surviving Asriel's strongest attack at far lower HP. You can do a whole ton of stuff at 1 HP, which is not remotely comparable to surviving cars.

I don't think this is a good example as it's clear that Flowey is massively superior and is holding back quite a lot.

Being massively superior does not imply they can't be comparable. Like, you have Asgore in the same tier as Froggit, c'mon.

"But he didn't know how strong Frisk is!" did you forget he knew Chara? Right now Chara is assumed to be comparable to Frisk because of them being a human like them, and I don't think human children with baseline DT should be that apart in power.

Flowey is probably a VSBW member that knows that too ig. But being real, he saw this child less than a minute ago. There is no way he was holding back, given his intentions are clearly to kill Frisk.

I already explained before why this is wrong. Mad Dummy was off guard and too angry to properly react, they didn't even bother to dodge Frisk's attacks either.

Still, tears are comparable to Frisk's soul movement, and Mad Dummy would not react this way to something that is thousands of times slower than himself.

Rest is stuff I either agree with or don't care enough to argue against.

Sure.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Also weren't you supposed to revise the whole "Asgore > Flowey" thing, or did you change your mind on it?

Done.
Also added Sans Dimensional Storage for the same reasons as others.

Thread 'Why doesn't Flowey UT have stealth mastery?'

Dec 7, 2024

^^^. As a person who knows the basics of UT, since Azzy has shown to be relatively and intentionally hidden from a lot of the monsters in the underground and even Frisk in your first playthroughs of UT...

Why does Flowey not have stealth mastery?

• H3110l12345I20
• asriel dreemurr (flowey) questions and answers thread stealth mastery undertale
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Questions and Answers

This is basic knowledge for anyone who's played through the game. Azz pretty much stalks the player throughout the journey and everyone to where his parents and Sans doesn't know his existence. If anyone wants, I could pull up scans in several days

Not sure if this is meant against me or not, but if it is, the feat happens before any journey and stalking happens.

That was Low 2-C Flowey, he already absorbed the 6 Human SOULs and was basically just screwing around the entire time.

He would still be screwing around at High 8-C+ level given he can harm High DT Frisk.

Not necessarily? You can just go in with 2HP and Papyrus will weaken his first attack into only doing 1 damage, same with Mettaton (Green Tile fight).

They both still observed Frisk before. Flowey met them less than a minute ago.
Still not sure what exactly are you talking about Mettation stuff.

Photoshop Flowey also held back by dealing just enough damage to leave Frisk at 1HP here.

Thread 'Why doesn't Flowey UT have stealth mastery?'

Dec 7, 2024

^^^. As a person who knows the basics of UT, since Azzy has shown to be relatively and intentionally hidden from a lot of the monsters in the underground and even Frisk in your first playthroughs of UT...

Why does Flowey not have stealth mastery?

• H3110l12345I20
• asriel dreemurr (flowey) questions and answers thread stealth mastery undertale
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Questions and Answers

This is basic knowledge for anyone who's played through the game. Azz pretty much stalks the player throughout the journey and everyone to where his parents and Sans doesn't know his existence. If anyone wants, I could pull up scans in several days

By your logic, the Flowey in the "Don't Give Up" sequence couldn't have been holding back, because apparently, Flowey can only hold back in one specific way. That’s how this argument comes across right now.

Of course not, but that's why it is way less likely. Also, Flowey not knowing Frisk at all and wanting to kill them is already enough as an argument.

Uh-huh... Well, Maddie was incorporeal and not fused to her body in either fight, so I don't see why her stamina would change. And now that you mention it, the others Dummies in the Mad Dummy fight were indeed just Maddie's bullets, which makes sense given they just vanish the moment Frisk touches them.

They are "his" bullets cuz his minions throw them. And his summonings literally leave him, which wouldn't be the case if it was literally his magic bullets like Sans' GBs.

The fact that she’s hurt by it, something that doesn’t typically happen with regular rain?

Acid rain is not magical, so wouldn't change.

Maybe because she was using the term figuratively?

How can even "acid rain" be used figuratively?

The tears do move about as fast as Frisk in that fight, and I doubt Maddie would really mistake it for rain if she could statue them either.

Yup.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They both still observed Frisk before. Flowey met them less than a minute ago.

And how does "observing Frisk" give them insight into how strong they are? Especially since we're talking about the kid that changes their stats whenever they feel like it?

Still not sure what exactly are you talking about Mettation stuff.

This (And if you enter the fight with 1HP, Mettaton won't even attack you).

Of course not, but that's why it is way less likely. Also, Flowey not knowing Frisk at all and wanting to kill them is already enough as an argument.

How exactly is it any less likely? Flowey can hold back in different ways, him holding back a certain way doesn't mean he wasn't holding back in the first place?

As for the latter point. Again, Flowey is really sadistic. Killing Frisk with that one pellet would rob him of the chance to spout his whole "KILL OR BE KILLED" philosophy.
Plus, if he really just wanted to kill Frisk, he’d go straight for the circle of death instead of pretending to be nice and giving them a false sense of security.

They are bullets cuz minions throw them. And summonings literally leave, which wouldn't be the case if it was literally magic bullets like Sans' GBs.

The narration explicitly says "Mad Dummy is bossing around its bullets." The ones getting bossed around are the minions, a.k.a the minions are themselves the bullets.
The Dummies also don't really leave as much as they get "fired" by Maddie, which is basically equivalent to her... just not using them?
Not that sentient magic projections are anything new in UT.

How can even "acid rain" be used figuratively?

The pain the droplets are causing is similar to the way acid burns?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

And how does "observing Frisk" give them insight into how strong they are?

Gives you information on stuff. Especially when they encounter Dogamy and Dogaressa, etc.

Especially since we're talking about the kid that changes their stats whenever they feel like it?

Huh?

This (And if you enter the fight with 1HP, Mettaton won't even attack you).

The difference here: he wants you to push the button and get him to glamour EX form, while Flowey wants to, yk, KILL you?

How exactly is it any less likely? Flowey can hold back in different ways, him holding back a certain way doesn't mean he wasn't holding back in the first place?

Because as we see, when he holds back, he is more careful and makes sure you can take lots of petells, not nearly die to just one.
And he has no reason to hold back. He wants to kill you. Him holding back is a nonsense in the first place.

As for the latter point. Again, Flowey is really sadistic. Killing Frisk with that one pellet would rob him of the chance to spout his whole "KILL OR BE KILLED" philosophy.

Being sadistic does not mean holding back. He also does not spout his whole kill or be killed if you dodge, meaning it wasn't really his intention.

Plus, if he really just wanted to kill Frisk, he’d go straight for the circle of death instead of pretending to be nice and giving them a false sense of security.

He just wanted to get in the trust so he can kill Frisk easier.

The narration explicitly says "Mad Dummy is bossing around its bullets." The ones getting bossed around are the minions, a.k.a the minions are themselves the bullets.
The Dummies also don't really leave as much as they get "fired" by Maddie, which is basically equivalent to him... just not using them?

Wait, I forgor that he fired them and they didn't leave themselves... fair 'nuff.

Not that sentient magic projections are anything new in UT.

Never saw So Sorry's battle ngl.

The pain the droplets are causing is similar to the way acid burns?

How can he even know how acid burns?..

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mad Dummy can keep his Superhuman stamina for displaying more magic than Paps in his battle (same as Sans). Napstablook though... ig he will just have to stay at Unknown, likely Superhuman (Should be likely comparable to his cousins).

Did this regarding Mad Dummy's & Napstablook stamina's.

 

[Gooldiddy]

small thing but I think Undyne should get stealth mastery from being able to disappear and appear at multiple points

 

[Monsters_fight]

Bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Not sure if this is meant against me or not, but if it is, the feat happens before any journey and stalking happens.

This is merely an out of the blue suggestion not related to the rest of the debate here. Should we discuss the topic of Azzy's stealth mastery in another CRT? I could read through this thread and give an outsider pov on the one you're discussion rn

 

[Monsters_fight]

Should we call staff to come here and evaluate the thread or something?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Should we call staff to come here and evaluate the thread or something?

Your options are to wait for potentially months or summon staff. If there is a mental road block or the debate is concluded, then you can summon staff if it's taking way too long (however you interpret it by common sense)

 

[Monsters_fight]

Your options are to wait for potentially months or summon staff. If there is a mental road block or the debate is concluded, then you can summon staff if it's taking way too long (however you interpret it by common sense)

Ok then

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is merely an out of the blue suggestion not related to the rest of the debate here. Should we discuss the topic of Azzy's stealth mastery in another CRT?

Oh, wait, I misunderstood why you brought up the Stealth Mastery (I thought it was an old dead CRT without checking FSR, sorry for confusion).
I’m open to adding it to this CRT if you want me to, just give the scans.

I could read through this thread and give an outsider pov on the one you're discussion rn

Sure.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Oh, wait, I misunderstood why you brought up the Stealth Mastery (I thought it was an old dead CRT without checking FSR, sorry for confusion).
I’m open to adding it to this CRT if you want me to, just give the scans.

Flowey has been shown to stalk the player from the beginning to end of the journey, you can only see it if you back track at certain rooms. On most people's 1st play throughs in mid-late 2010s, most people wouldn't notice Flowey's stalking due to this requirement to where they're surprised when Asgore's psychopathic son decides to kill him last minute (although I'm pretty sure there could be other explanations to why people would get surprised by this if you guys explain stuff here). There's also the fact it's implied that Azzy's mother and father doesn't know that Flowey is Asriel and that Sans doesn't know Papyrus is talking to Flowey, not an echo Flower.

Within this context, it's pretty clear that Flowey doesn't make his presence very known during Frisk's time in the underground with the exception of the player, Papyrus and subjective exception of maybe Alphys. He even uses his presence in the shadows to do a surprise attack here in the true pacifist route and to kill Asgore when the player's guard is down [linked in the 1st paragraph].

All archived here

 

[Monsters_fight]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

0-1 STATS buff​

Everything from here is a supportive.
Frisk at the beginning of the game can barely survive Flowey's attacks... pretty obvious, everyone from 0 to 1 ATK should also be "At most High 8-C", albeit very, very barely. Consistent with the fact that current 9-A feat used for Frisk is done without losing health at all.

Couldn't that be more because of hp than defense.

Secondly, monsters get exhausted from using attacks, meaning anyone who attacks more than Papyrus overall should upscale from him in Stamina.

The guy who doesn't sleep and possibly didn't sleep for days before the fight? Papyrus is also somewhat implied to physically set up his attacks with quotes like this:
"Papyrus is preparing a bone attack."

"Papyrus prepares a non-bone attack then spends a minute fixing his mistake."

Also the box of bones in his room.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Flowey has been shown to stalk the player from the beginning to end of the journey, you can only see it if you back track at certain rooms. On most people's 1st play throughs in mid-late 2010s, most people wouldn't notice Flowey's stalking due to this requirement to where they're surprised when Asgore's psychopathic son decides to kill him last minute (although I'm pretty sure there could be other explanations to why people would get surprised by this if you guys explain stuff here). There's also the fact it's implied that Azzy's mother and father doesn't know that Flowey is Asriel and that Sans doesn't know Papyrus is talking to Flowey, not an echo Flower.

Within this context, it's pretty clear that Flowey doesn't make his presence very known during Frisk's time in the underground with the exception of the player, Papyrus and subjective exception of maybe Alphys. He even uses his presence in the shadows to do a surprise attack here in the true pacifist route and to kill Asgore when the player's guard is down [linked in the 1st paragraph].

All archived here

Sure, will add.

Couldn't that be more because of hp than defense.

0 DEF barely survives 8-B attack, so 1 DEF should also do.

The guy who doesn't sleep and possibly didn't sleep for days before the fight?

He actually just doesn't sleep often, and is very fine throughout the entire game, he is onlt exhausted in fight.

Papyrus is also somewhat implied to physically set up his attacks with quotes like this:
"Papyrus is preparing a bone attack."
"Papyrus prepares a non-bone attack then spends a minute fixing his mistake."

It's just a way of saying, not meant to be literally. Papyrus doesn't move one inch the entire fight.

Also the box of bones in his room.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Lou_change]

0 DEF barely survives 8-B attack, so 1 DEF should also do.

Frisk can one shot whimsun and most other zero defense monsters except Moldsmal and Shyren using an attack stat of 0

It's just a way of saying, not meant to be literally. Papyrus doesn't move one inch the entire fight.

If the only reason it's not meant to be taken literally is that he doesn't move that makes the narrator provide around 9 outright false statements and should probably have us apply similar scrutiny to stuff like Undyne's boulder suplex.

What is that supposed to mean?

I'll have him tell you everything

 

[Monsters_fight]

Frisk can one shot whimsun and most other zero defense monsters except Moldsmal and Shyren using an attack stat of 0

Characters can one shoot other characters and still be in the same tier tho
+ the fact that Frisk can survive Flowey´s attack and that a few monsters with 0 DEF can still tank a few hits from Frisk proves that the gap is not very high

 

[Lou_change]

Characters can one shoot other characters and still be in the same tier tho

We don't currently accept frisk's lowest ap rating to be 8-B so unless that is added to the crt that's definitely a contradiction to the durability also that sort of implies that only one should scale to the other.

the fact that Frisk can survive Flowey´s attack and that a few monsters with 0 DEF can still tank a few hits from Frisk proves that the gap is not very high

The only two who survive have higher hp supporting my point.