Undertale: Chara, Frisk and Sans revisions (FAILURE)

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not lying, she was just wrong here.

Do you realize how this is not hinted even once?

There's 0 proof of it outside durability. Photoshop Flowey still takes damage, Asriel not even that.

Yeah and I explained it via verse mechanics. It is undeniable that the gap in DT between Asriel and Peak DT Frisk is far less than between Immense DT and Photoshop Flowey.

You're just being a broken disc at this point.

No? It was what I was always

LMAO
M
A
O

A simple question: why doesn’t Asriel have a control over timeline?

I put the Tumblr links only because on their own they give a great deal of evidence of Chara's influence across the Genocide, as it's not even fanon at this point, it's something that factually does happen here.

In the justification is even said that the Player can abort the genocide and interrupt the deal with Chara anytime. A thing in their weakness would do the job though.

Do you still think I’m saying that Chara does not have any influence? They do, I admitted that many times, just not in battles, and they don’t possess the body for the whole route entirely.
If it was Chara in battles, then Player would not be able to abort Genocide, since Frisk is not in their control in the first place and thus the MERCY would never even be an option.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do you realize how this is not hinted even once?

That was disproved on screen tho.

Yeah and I explained it via verse mechanics.

Who is the one who has made an essay on how the MISS animation works? Not you.

It is undeniable that the gap in DT between Asriel and Peak DT Frisk is far less than between Immense DT and Photoshop Flowey.

So argument from incredulity, got it.

A simple question: why doesn’t Asriel have a control over timeline?

This isn't a meaning of being a parallel. Chara is a parallel to the Player due to them choosing their name, and Chara also directly saying that them and the Player aren't really the same entity despite them being our feeling of stats rising.

Frisk and Asriel don't have this relationship.

They do, I admitted that many times, just not in battles, and they don’t possess the body for the whole route entirely.
If it was Chara in battles, then Player would not be able to abort Genocide, since Frisk is not in their control in the first place and thus the MERCY would never even be an option.

Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance

Already said in the justification. You're fighting ghosts at this point.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That was disproved on screen tho.

Or it’s a hint, since that’s what the game is about, but I mean, sure, be stubborn.

Who is the one who has made an essay on how the MISS animation works? Not you.

And? This is essentially same argument as “Frisk cannot damage Asriel” which I addressed already.

So argument from incredulity, got it.

No? It is genuinely evident. Unless you have a way to debunk that (claim that “Asriel was wrong on that he doesn’t have control over timeline” ig?)

This isn't a meaning of being a parallel. Chara is a parallel to the Player due to them choosing their name, and Chara also directly saying that them and the Player aren't really the same entity despite them being our feeling of stats rising.

Okay, I meant that they are supposed to rivals, which is pretty much as of a thing as parallels.

Despite said control can be broken if the Player does not collaborate with them in their guidance

Already said in the justification. You're fighting ghosts at this point.

Do you realize that the Player collaboration does not even matter if Chara has full possession over Frisk during the whole route and/or in fights? Why Chara would even need to guide Player anywhere or collaborate, they literally have Frisk’s body. Player cannot abort Genocide without RESETs either - you can only do that in fights and Chara currently is accepted to have full control over Frisk in fights.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Or it’s a hint, since that’s what the game is about, but I mean, sure, be stubborn.

Orange... I don't know how can you interpet Undyne's blatant yapping about putting your whole heart which just wasn't followed as "Frisk can still attack at full force while holding back", which is a contradictory claim.

No? It is genuinely evident

Nah,

Unless you have a way to debunk that (claim that “Asriel was wrong on that he doesn’t have control over timeline” ig?)

That does not need AP I am afraid.

Okay, I meant that they are supposed to rivals, which is pretty much as of a thing as parallels.

So is irrelevant.

Do you realize that the Player collaboration does not even matter if Chara has full possession over Frisk during the whole route and/or in fights? Why Chara would even need to guide Player anywhere or collaborate, they literally have Frisk’s body. Player cannot abort Genocide without RESETs either - you can only do that in fights and Chara currently is accepted to have full control over Frisk in fights.

Perhaps possession is the wrong term here. Limited Possession then, as they do still take action over Frisk's body above us?

 

[Homie890]

now im imaginating an close-up,black and white of chara with the prowler theme with an caption saying something like "never do that again",sounds funny.

Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

now im imaginating an close-up,black and white of chara with the prowler theme with an caption saying something like "never do that again",sounds funny.

This is genuinely derailing. It's not even the first time you do this, so just stop.

 

[Homie890]

This is genuinely derailing. It's not even the first time you do this, so just stop.

k

 

[DaReaperMan]

fine I guess I'll comment.

Obviously, no shit Frisk doesn't have 2-B AP, it's a load of bullshit made by combining like 5 different assumptions-- and in pacifist you can do Asgore/OF if you delay True Lab a little and then go there afterwards, and in both of these fights you need to attack to win!

You already know what I think about Chara's bit here, I literally singled it out as being particularly shitty, so no need to kick the horse

Sans bit is fine, I suppose.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You already know what I think about Chara's bit here, I literally singled it out as being particularly shitty, so no need to kick the horse

Mind elaborating?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Mind elaborating?

Check my wall

 

[Homie890]

anyways,disagree with frisk having 2-B ap,chara bit im eh,and sans part makes sense,i think

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Since nobody likes the idea of 2-B Frisk ig I'll just stop arguing it ig (at least here)

Perhaps possession is the wrong term here. Limited Possession then, as they do still take action over Frisk's body above us?

Yeah, they still do take over Frisk's body, and this "limited possession" becomes stronger the closer you're to the end of Genocide Route
The point was that in most of the battles it was not Chara, since when it is Chara, we have 9999999 ATK and Player does not have to do anything

Do you finally see my point?

You already know what I think about Chara's bit here, I literally singled it out as being particularly shitty, so no need to kick the horse

Check my wall

Tbf I didn't really understand what exactly your stance is, just that you don't like how Chara is currently treated with whole possession thing

now im imaginating an close-up,black and white of chara with the prowler theme with an caption saying something like "never do that again",sounds funny.

Genuinely what

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, they still do take over Frisk's body, and this "limited possession" becomes stronger the closer you're to the end of Genocide Route
The point was that in most of the battles it was not Chara, since when it is Chara, we have 9999999 ATK and Player does not have to do anything

"9999999 ATK" from where? If you mean the 99 ATK thing, that comes from the Real Knife, but that's not a mandatory item to finish the Genocide.

Do you finally see my point?

All that I got is that at best we make the possession as Limited and that's it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Snip

• During Genocide Route before Sans, all of monsters get their health reduced to their minimum and you inflict the exact same damage as they have HP even if you one-shot them (aka, it will not be all nines). However, when we hit Sans, he gets 9999999 damage, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF. Same goes with Asgore: he gets 9999999999 damage despite having far lower HP. And it was recently revealed that Chara’s favorite number is 9, and they like things like all nines because there is nothing higher than that which means you’re invincible, and these both facts (9999999… ATK thing and Chara’s strong liking of “9” and thinking that a lot of 9s would make them invincible) together very heavily imply that Chara fully possessed Frisk’s body only after landing last hit on Sans.
• Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

How is number 9 being Chara's fav being relevant?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Just read what I sent?

 

[StrymULTRA]

All I read is "they deal more damage so it's proof that they only possess Frisk at the end of Genocide".

Inflicting the minimal damage requires to one shot prior to Sans isn't exactly the strongest proof, as we still see Chara taking over Frisk's body before that.

However your proof isn't enough to change almost nothing of their Post-Death Key, as it still functions the same... Unless you want to do something like adding the Genocide Route stuff to Frisk's profile? That may work.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

All I read is "they deal more damage so it's proof that they only possess Frisk at the end of Genocide".

They deal damage far higher than needed to kill monsters

Inflicting the minimal damage requires to one shot prior to Sans isn't exactly the strongest proof, as we still see Chara taking over Frisk's body before that.

Yeah I totally agree that Chara took over Frisk before that to some degree, but as I said, Chara being the one that fights monsters makes no sense as then Player would be unable to "stop the partnership" because Frisk is literally not in Player's control to spare monsters, however we know that sparing them and aborting Genocide is indeed canon

However your proof isn't enough to change almost nothing of their Post-Death Key, as it still functions the same... Unless you want to do something like adding the Genocide Route stuff to Frisk's profile? That may work.

Yeah that's what I wanted, and also scale Chara to Sans Reaction speed similarly to Photoshop Flowey

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah that's what I wanted, and also scale Chara to Sans Reaction speed similarly to Photoshop Flowey

There I am neutral tbh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually this whole thing makes me think of something...

What if Chara was talking to both Frisk and the Player? It wouldn't make sense for Chara to completely pretend that Frisk just does not exist in this whole array, especially if they have to use their body to interact with the world first.

Yes, Flowey directly speaks to the Player (as Chara in a normal Pacifist is still dead and inactive), but Chara? The entire deal of the Player's SOUL is technically explained in Deltarune, where they just use Kris' SOUL to control that dude, so maybe Chara's "gimme your SOUL" thingy is probably a reference to them being able to arbitrary being able to control Frisk at times like the Player does (aka the soulless endings).

This can be a far better explanation in probably justifying a 2-B Frisk. But I'd need some input 1st.

Stuff

Stuff

Stuff

What do you think of the thing I said above?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Also, to add on my previous points, Frisk becomes so pacifist that they refuse to say bad things even if Player makes Frisk do that.

Hmm, actually, shouldn't this be some kind of resistance since Frisk resist the player attempt to control her?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Hmm, actually, shouldn't this be some kind of resistance since Frisk resist the player attempt to control her?

That's already said in the Player in their weakness iirc, as even Kris can resist to some degree sometimes.

 

[Bernkastelll]

That's already said in the Player in their weakness iirc, as even Kris can resist to some degree sometimes.

Well, couldn't it be a Frisk and Kris resistance instead of the Player's weakness?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, couldn't it be a Frisk and Kris resistance instead of the Player's weakness?

I mean, if it's a resistance they'd break out more often, I think.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Actually this whole thing makes me think of something...

What if Chara was talking to both Frisk and the Player? It wouldn't make sense for Chara to completely pretend that Frisk just does not exist in this whole array, especially if they have to use their body to interact with the world first.

Yes, Flowey directly speaks to the Player (as Chara in a normal Pacifist is still dead and inactive), but Chara? The entire deal of the Player's SOUL is technically explained in Deltarune, where they just use Kris' SOUL to control that dude, so maybe Chara's "gimme your SOUL" thingy is probably a reference to them being able to arbitrary being able to control Frisk at times like the Player does (aka the soulless endings).

This can be a far better explanation in probably justifying a 2-B Frisk. But I'd need some input 1st.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Chara was talking to Frisk too, so Frisk survived Chara’s hit?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Chara was talking to Frisk too, so Frisk survived Chara’s hit?

Chara might have used Frisk's DT to perform the 2-B feat.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Chara might have used Frisk's DT to perform the 2-B feat.

I mean, we already know that Frisk's DT can rival Asriel's tho
I don't see what this changes?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, we already know that Frisk's DT can rival Asriel's tho
I don't see what this changes?

Chara directly relates their DT to their power, and then proceeds to talk of the mumbo jumbo of "my DT was actually yours", so nah.

Chara's DT is what allowed them to perform the 2-B feat, it's the entire reason why Player is that tier to begin with.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Asriel's DT is also kinda the basis to his power, yet Frisk (Who has a similar amount) still shows a stat discrepancy.
I don't see how this changes the DT empowers people differently point.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see how this changes the DT empowers people differently point.

Either Frisk downscales, similar to how MTT box isn't leagues above them, or the whole "Frisk was holding back" thing holds some merit.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Chara might have used Frisk's DT to perform the 2-B feat.

I mean, didn’t Frisk literally die to Chara’s hit tho? Otherwise their files would not be erased and we would have seen Frisk physically on screen.

or the whole "Frisk was holding back" thing holds some merit.

I mean, doing minimal damage to the one who holds back too should logically mean that you would do 0 damage to the one who doesn’t hold back, but I already said that I won’t touch Frisk 2-B thing and I don’t really care about it on this site atp

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, didn’t Frisk literally die to Chara’s hit tho? Otherwise their files would not be erased and we would have seen Frisk physically on screen.

Resistance feat for Frisk, problem solved.

 

[Livinmeme]

And wanna know how much DEF Asriel has in code? Exactly, 9999! It kinda implies that Toby's intent is clear here, that Frisk cannot harm Asriel even if we spam FIGHT all the time.

Uh....

AT∞ [8]​

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Resistance feat for Frisk, problem solved.

Everything hints to that Frisk has died

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, doing minimal damage to the one who holds back too should logically mean that you would do 0 damage to the one who doesn’t hold back, but I already said that I won’t touch Frisk 2-B thing and I don’t really care about it on this site atp

I'd like to note that if we make Frisk = Chara in stats, it'd mean that Asriel simply upscales from them.

Lil bit like Ness and Giygas, where the latter was absurdly above Ness to the point that he couldn't do damage to him, but was still strong enough to endure a decent amount of hits, Frisk vs Asriel would end up in this situation methinks.

Don't get me wrong, the whole "holding back" thing is still a dumb argument, but I think this, combined with the Chara thing, is a decent argument.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Everything hints to that Frisk has died

Not really. There's literally no proof that Frisk died from it. Everything is really vague to the point that you can't really deduce who Chara was talking to between Frisk, Player or both.

However, I did find something interesting in the Legends of Localization Book (which yes, it's official and contains multiple comments from Toby himself).

Frisk uses the Player's determination, which would be consistent with the interpretation of Chara talking to both of them at the same time.

Which would leave at one conclusion:

• Chara, Player and Peak DT Frisk: 2-B for both AP and dura.
• Asriel: >>> the 3 above in stats (which even fits this statement lmfao).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I’ll just say my opinion on this whole thing about Frisk and never touch this again:

The reason for 2-B was that Frisk is comparable to Asriel in DT, and DT is their source of AP and all stats, that’s how they went from Supersonic to Immeasurable, or from Froggit level to Asgore level, etc. Due to it, we can still deal 1 damage to Photoshop Flowey who is far superior in both LV and DT than us, to the point that we cannot even LOAD and he can SAVE.

The reason for Frisk not being able to damage was due to wanting to actually SAVE Asriel, and in “fake” fight with Undyne, we can see that their fake attack is as strong as real one with Undyne seeing no difference between them and saying it is full force, and we deal 1 damage, aka a minimum, to the Undyne who also holds back, which would logically mean they would very likely deal 0 damage to her if Undyne was not holding back. All of that to become friends with Undyne — meanwhile on True Pacifist Frisk is so pacifist-hearted that they refuse to say bad things to some random ugly-looking nobodies even when Player forces them to, and we’re talking about Asriel who Frisk wants to SAVE.

Chara speaking to Frisk is non-sensical, especially given that Frisk’s SOUL is absolutely FINE after Genocide, so they were clearly asking Player’s soul. Moreover, in files Frisk’s files are erased as well, along with UNDERTALE game wanting to delete itself, and us never seeing Frisk again, which means they’re just dead.

I saw this scan from UT official book a long time ago, which means either of two, which are wrong:
1) Frisk does not have their own DT, hence why their SOUL is easily broken unlike other six SOULs, which closes a plot hole. This makes no sense given that Asriel clearly says that it is Frisk’s Determination which keeps them alive and makes them so powerful, so no;
2) Frisk is as powerful as Player. This makes no sense either, Flowey in the end of True Pacifist directly tells Player that Player is the only being who can use TRUE RESET, and Frisk clearly can’t despite being free and having their life. Also, having two equally powerful beings means that neither one gets True Reset, see Asriel fight.

I think I already said everything I wanted about Chara possession, I’m too lazy to restate it because people seemed less opposed to it.

And honestly, I don’t really care if anybody agrees or disagrees with this, or Chara’s possession, at this point; just get Sans’ Kilometers upgrade accepted and that’s it.

Shion was right: that’s why Sans is the goat.

 

[ShionAH]

"Oh well Chara can be talking to Frisk! we also dont know who is who and who posesses who but this makes no sense I think frisk can destroy the countless universes because of the fact that..."

vs


"calculation, upgrade"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Chara speaking to Frisk is non-sensical, especially given that Frisk’s SOUL is absolutely FINE after Genocide, so they were clearly asking Player’s soul. Moreover, in files Frisk’s files are erased as well, along with UNDERTALE game wanting to delete itself, and us never seeing Frisk again, which means they’re just dead.

Frisk has literally resistance to EE and Info 2 at their peak lol.

Plus it can just mean that Frisk's SOUL is under Chara's possession similar to how we own Kris' SOUL in DR.

1) Frisk does not have their own DT, hence why their SOUL is easily broken unlike other six SOULs, which closes a plot hole. This makes no sense given that Asriel clearly says that it is Frisk’s Determination which keeps them alive and makes them so powerful, so no;

Asriel simply had no knowledge of the Player until the end of Pacifist.

2) Frisk is as powerful as Player. This makes no sense either, Flowey in the end of True Pacifist directly tells Player that Player is the only being who can use TRUE RESET, and Frisk clearly can’t despite being free and having their life. Also, having two equally powerful beings means that neither one gets True Reset, see Asriel fight.

Or maybe, Frisk can just take the Player's power depending on how determined they are, just like how DT works?

 

[StrymULTRA]

"calculation, upgrade"

Honestly I think we shouldn't put a simple calc upgrade in such a controversial talk , but whatevs.

I can talk of the Frisk stuff in another thread though, as I know it's getting too lengthy and messy.