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Undertale CRT: Low 1-C Player
- Thread starter Roachman40
- Start date
- Status
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I don't care. And it's one mod and an admin disagreeing, don't act like the mod has less significance here. It's Two Staffs
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I have little to no clue either. It seems like the agreement thought they had a consensus and wanted to "apply the revision until Efficiente made a CRT to change the requirements for R>F", as if we had already accepted UT was even meeting said requirements in the first place.
So I put up a stance against that notion. The last argument was by cosmic, from the disagreement, and Ultima, from the agreement. Ultima was replying to me, who claimed that the evidence could simply point towards a meta narrative trying to make the characters feel real, so your actions have weight, and morality, thus pushing away the standard "Kill the random opponents in RPG without any repercussions" cliche. Rather, Ultima believes these meta aspects are actually portraying a cosmological sense that, the anomaly, us, has the same kind of relationship that we, the player, have with the game itself. The anomaly is for the universe of Undertale as the real life player is to the game, Undertale. Which I disagree for the points I presented.
These are basically the arguments as of now.
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My stance hasn't changed.
I still disagree on the basis that the Player is never explicitly treated as being literally the player playing a game. It's always discussed as this vague space-time entity. And Undertale has a history of implementing fourth wall stuff as canon mechanics in a more organic, natural way that doesn't straight up break the fourth wall or require a literal translation of game mechanics. Stuff like DT allowing saves and shit.
In this light, this being that metaphorically represents the Player shouldn't be assumed to translate 100% literally by default. And given how we lack evidence for that, we shouldn't rate our profiles according to an overly literal interpretation.
Mind you I'd have no problem with it if was explained more thoroughly. I don't agree with those other people thinking that you can't be a normal person in a transcendent world of the main game and be Tier 1. Mostly because that's just objectively false with our current standards (shout out to DC's Writer). I just don't think the evidence here is enough.
I still disagree on the basis that the Player is never explicitly treated as being literally the player playing a game. It's always discussed as this vague space-time entity. And Undertale has a history of implementing fourth wall stuff as canon mechanics in a more organic, natural way that doesn't straight up break the fourth wall or require a literal translation of game mechanics. Stuff like DT allowing saves and shit.
In this light, this being that metaphorically represents the Player shouldn't be assumed to translate 100% literally by default. And given how we lack evidence for that, we shouldn't rate our profiles according to an overly literal interpretation.
Mind you I'd have no problem with it if was explained more thoroughly. I don't agree with those other people thinking that you can't be a normal person in a transcendent world of the main game and be Tier 1. Mostly because that's just objectively false with our current standards (shout out to DC's Writer). I just don't think the evidence here is enough.
Zencha9
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@GodlyCharmander @Eficiente
you guys realize that the latter part of saikou's post fundamentally disagrees with your principles and the stuff you were debating this whole thread
so mind clearing that up?
you guys realize that the latter part of saikou's post fundamentally disagrees with your principles and the stuff you were debating this whole thread
so mind clearing that up?
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I believe it would be better if you granted more regard to argument as opposed to status.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I already did that. That is not the singular post I've made in this thread, far from it.
You also miss the point of the reply, it was to stop the two members demanding that the revision is applied to the profiles when we do not have a consensus yet. My counters are present in multiple posts.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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That's a matter for its own CRT on our standards. Efficiente can take care of that.
Saikou agrees that the evidence is far from sufficient even for these standards, which is what matters for this thread.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
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First of all, DC's The Writer page literally has an anecdote saying not to view the metafictional aspect of it as the norm for reality>fiction transcendence or reality-fiction interaction so it doesn't make sense to use it as a site standard.
Second of all, even ignoring that (for some reason) DC is a bad example of this. DC like Marvel, is weird. They play around with meta commentary multiple times and (what should be for obvious reasons) do so in such ways that are not necessarily in a way that results in higher dimensional scalings according to our standards.
As I already pointed out Gwenpool is a good example of this, where her reality warping powers are gained as a result of her origins from the real world but she's far from the abilities of literally any cosmic entity. Of course, Gwenpool is an outlier even from this perspective. There are multiple other "real worlds" where comic book characters can easily travel to their world and back without any trouble, killing those people if they need to like when they found out that someone from the real world was the source of a zombie virus that spread to other universes. Then there's also moments when these supposedly real world individuals would travel to the comicbook universe and be deemed nothing special, saved only in the sense that they hail from a world with have stricter laws that make the existence of heroes as well as similar phenomena impossible.
DC is no different. Sure, during the multiversity epics there was a brief description of higher dimensional entities being capable of viewing the universe like one would read a comic book. However, in that same series it was revealed that this is not particularly special. Every (or almost every) universe sees into other universes in the form of comic books and it occurs often enough that people actively use them to keep up with the happenings of adjacent universes.
Even Earth Prime, a universe responsible for not one but two higher dimensional entities (Empty Hand and the writer) are not viewed as anything inherently special in itself beyond being, as Darkseid put it, boring, and the many more entities that came from there, such as superboy prime, though powerful and sometimes meta, are not depicted as being particularly more powerful because of they're origins from there. The Multiversity guideline even goes as far as to say no one knows exactly how Earth Prime affects the multiverse and even extremely advanced civilizations like the Monitors treat it as a glorified database server for the information of the rest of the multiverse.
DC is no different. Sure, during the multiversity epics there was a brief description of higher dimensional entities being capable of viewing the universe like one would read a comic book. However, in that same series it was revealed that this is not particularly special. Every (or almost every) universe sees into other universes in the form of comic books and it occurs often enough that people actively use them to keep up with the happenings of adjacent universes.
Even Earth Prime, a universe responsible for not one but two higher dimensional entities (Empty Hand and the writer) are not viewed as anything inherently special in itself beyond being, as Darkseid put it, boring, and the many more entities that came from there, such as superboy prime, though powerful and sometimes meta, are not depicted as being particularly more powerful because of they're origins from there. The Multiversity guideline even goes as far as to say no one knows exactly how Earth Prime affects the multiverse and even extremely advanced civilizations like the Monitors treat it as a glorified database server for the information of the rest of the multiverse.
Well, that's all to say no, a real person doesn't mean they're transcendent, we have never viewed them as transcendent, authors don't automatically treat them as transcendent and in my opinion people should really stop acting like whether The Player is real or not, (even if there was evidence for it) would automatically forgo any need for basic evidence for transcendence or the like.
There are multiple interpretations to meta commentary, even within the same story-line.
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Jinsye
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The note isn't that other profiles can't be basically normal humans with a tier 1 level of transcendence. The note is that the Writer is special for being tier 0 via R>F shenanigans. Nothing compared to this thread.
Tier 1 normal humans are considered as acceptable within the bounds of the wiki, for example Umineko characters can be considered high levels of tier 1 by simply existing, due to having an R>F transcendence over a lower world.
CosmicWreck
He/Him- 674
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Edit: Didn't really like how that post was typed so let's try this again.
Yes, I know humans can be pushed into higher tiers due to Reality>Fiction transcendence. Read my post again. The point is, regardless of their race, in multiple media, even media that includes reality>Fiction transcendence, being from or existing in a real world isn't enough to say that they are at this level of power simply because there are multiple interpretations meta commentary. Simply being viewed as more real didn't save Gwenpool's world from being destroyed by the Beyonders, for example, despite them literally reading about it in their comics.
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I believe I've already explained this bit well enough in my above response to Charmander, so, moving on'
Not really a matter of perspective. From the Tiering System page:
And before you or someone else nitpicks the use of "akin" there:
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
So, yes, as far as I see, your issues lie more with the standards than with the case at hand.
Unless I'm grossly misreading this post, you seem to keep going back and forth with this here. In the parts I've quoted above, you seemed to be saying that our standards don't necessarily suggest that "seeing something as fictional" is grounds for a qualitative superiority on its own. But then, here, you're saying that this standard does exist, but is ultimately wrong. So, either you're misinformed (As put above) or just having disagreements with the overall Tiering System that go well beyond the scope of this thread, both cases resulting in your opposition not being grounded on much, at the end.
No idea why you brought this up. At no point did I even mention that stuff.
Not really, no. Your whole point looks like it boils down to "There are many ways to see something as fiction that don't result in Tier 1," but I've already said that regardless of what semantics you want to play around with, there'd come a point where a character is just objectively not being seen as a fictional construct in any literal capacity, and that is thus outside of what our standards are supposed to cover, something which I illustrated with my example of Earth-33.
Not to mention how, again, none of what you mentioned applies to Undertale, as far as I am aware. If your point is ultimately just "There are so many ways in which R-F interactions can happen that defaulting it to the Tier 1 interpretation is inappropriate," then, sure, but that'd just lead to the pitfall I mentioned above (i.e It means you just have a problem with our standards as a whole, which should be addressed elsewhere)
Yeah, since there is, once again, nothing wrong with a character having a level of AP that's higher than their plane of existence. Unless you mean to say "What if there's a case where characters from the fictional world are just not inherently weaker than characters from the "real" one?", in which case, that's just another instance of something that's not really applicable to the case at hand, and which would probably invalidate the whole idea of there actually being a literal Reality-Fiction Interaction between the two planes, anyway.
Fourth Wall Breaking elements that are used as one-off gags aren't too relevant here, since they're obviously not meant to be part of any serious storytelling or elaboration regarding a work's setting, which is very much the case with Undertale. Not familiar with Gwenpool, so, can't speak for that, though (Which is, for the matter, why I left the paragraph about her out of my response to your later comment)
Can't say I'm too familiar with the specifics behind our treatment of such verses, myself. I made a few suggestions which I believe are coherent enough in my previous post, but I'd be speaking out of turn until someone more knowledgeable than me confirmed it.
To clarify: The actual point being raised by me is that Eficiente's points largely attack our general standards regarding R>F differences as a whole, and not this thread in specific, and so they are not valid grounds for disagreement until he brings about his ideal standards for this sort of feat.
You didn't seem to address the person above pointing this out on her reply to you, so I'll do it again: The note on the Writer's profile specifically refers to his reality-fiction transcendence being used as grounds for him being High 1-A / 0, and not for him being treated as a transcendental being at all, so that seems to be just a misunderstanding on your part.
As for your collapsed argument:
I've already addressed this before. This was my response, to be exact:
And as far as I see, nothing suggests the UT Player is a similar situation to that, at all, especially given their role as an active, external observer influencing the gameworld, instead of someone that's just in a parallel universe resembling real life.
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This part matters the most.
More to it, if there was a "lower" reality seen as something infinitesimal it would very convoluted for them to not have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, based on common sense. As such, that "normally" and "akin to" should more so refer to "fictional constructs", fictional constructs/fiction is what does not always fit to our criteria for Reality-Fiction Transcendence, which makes perfect sense as why would it always fit, it's common to see verses where fiction can punch real things in the face & other things real people do to each other, clearly fictional constructs/fiction would need better evidence to hold Reality-Fiction Transcendence. This all comes deconstructed relatively slow so we can all keep up with and understand the thought process, but the conclusions are much faster from the initial text, from me and anyone reading it.
That from the Tiering System, now on the Tiering System FQA, again, "literal fiction" =/= any form of "fiction" portrayed in a verse, on the basis that not all forms of fiction in verses fit our criteria. "Literal fiction" most likely is a poorly worded way to say "the forms of fiction that fit our criteria for Reality-Fiction Transcendence, unlike the forms of fiction that do not".
"trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal." doesn't necessarily mean that all kinds of fiction portrayed in-universe are this "lower" levels of existence next to the "higher", real levels of existence it's referring to. Otherwise it would say something like "trivialize everything below them into insignificance, for example by perceiving them as fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.", as to say "normally" and "akin to" mean that; they being "fictional constructs or something infinitesimal" may fit our criteria in some context but not all situations. So they being "fictional constructs or something infinitesimal" doesn't always fit our criteria, which means they are ways to create "lower" realities that are seen as "fictional constructs or something infinitesimal" in which there is no Reality-Fiction Transcendence, and that easily contradicts your idea that there is no such thing as "There are many ways of seeing something as fiction, and the one that gives Low 1-C shouldn't necessarily be the default" in what our standards say. This is not a nitpick nor semantics, but literally what the text communicates, this thing I said about it is what any normal person would understand from it.Not really a matter of perspective. From the Tiering System page:
And before you or someone else nitpicks the use of "akin" there:
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
So, yes, as far as I see, your issues lie more with the standards than with the case at hand.
More to it, if there was a "lower" reality seen as something infinitesimal it would very convoluted for them to not have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, based on common sense. As such, that "normally" and "akin to" should more so refer to "fictional constructs", fictional constructs/fiction is what does not always fit to our criteria for Reality-Fiction Transcendence, which makes perfect sense as why would it always fit, it's common to see verses where fiction can punch real things in the face & other things real people do to each other, clearly fictional constructs/fiction would need better evidence to hold Reality-Fiction Transcendence. This all comes deconstructed relatively slow so we can all keep up with and understand the thought process, but the conclusions are much faster from the initial text, from me and anyone reading it.
That from the Tiering System, now on the Tiering System FQA, again, "literal fiction" =/= any form of "fiction" portrayed in a verse, on the basis that not all forms of fiction in verses fit our criteria. "Literal fiction" most likely is a poorly worded way to say "the forms of fiction that fit our criteria for Reality-Fiction Transcendence, unlike the forms of fiction that do not".
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hmm
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Just let it die, man...
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when I know that the advantages outweighs all the repurcussions...there's no turning back my friend.
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Hate to bump an old thread but by our sites standards this is easily Low 1-C. If people have a problem with the way the standards are implemented that's a different matter entirely for a different CRT.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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It isn't, as I and others explained above.
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You and efficiente's points are mostly subjective and not objective. So very little significance.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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There isn't an objective point to be made, it's interpreting the player as a higher dimensional entity because the game recognizes it's own mechanics, thus "it recognizes itself as a game".
That is an interpretation, which has no solice, which is what my point illustrates. The player shouldn't even be a real character.
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If we have a problem with the way that R>F is implemented on the wiki then that should be argued in a different CRT.
This is extremely clear cut R>F and we have given it to other verses for less (this obviously isn't an argument because it's a fallacy to compare to other accepted threads/verses)
Charmander/Efficiante's arguments fundamentally boil down to having a problem with R>F in general (I literally can hardly understand Efficientes comments), literally half of this thread is talking about other examples of R>F.
Sans/Flowey have 4th wall awareness and know they are in a video game when they talk to the Player in the guise of Frisk, simple as that.
This is extremely clear cut R>F and we have given it to other verses for less (this obviously isn't an argument because it's a fallacy to compare to other accepted threads/verses)
Charmander/Efficiante's arguments fundamentally boil down to having a problem with R>F in general (I literally can hardly understand Efficientes comments), literally half of this thread is talking about other examples of R>F.
Sans/Flowey have 4th wall awareness and know they are in a video game when they talk to the Player in the guise of Frisk, simple as that.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I'm arguing there's no such thing as a R>F taking place here.
If the Player is not a character, but literally just is sitting at the computer (the anomaly just being their interpretation of our influence), then yes, R>F is happening, but then, the Player isn't a fictional character, and shouldn't even have a profile.
If the Player is a character, then they are the anomaly, which is well established to be an in-universe persona that takes place within the fictional setting, thus, nulling R>F outright.
The interpretation here is that, the Player is an actual character, it's not literally us, the anomaly isn't referring to the character but just it's influence, and said player views the UT world as fiction. Only then the upgrade makes sense. I don't find the evidence here to be enough to justify and single out this particular interpretation of the events, thus, I disagree.
One example?
For me, not at all. I never even attempt to address R>F is not a valid interpretation for 5D, au contrare, I state that such a thing would be valid, but there's no evidence of such being the case for Undertale.
Sans. Flowey does not show 4th wall awareness, since the influence of the anomaly is treated as an "in-universe" event. They wouldn't need to be aware of the 4th wall to be aware of the "anomaly", aka the Player.
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This is straight up ignoring how our R>F interaction standards work.
Even the anomaly itself exists outside of the game world. Outside of the gameworld =/= completely outside of the verse itself.
The influence of a being from a higher ontology within the game can still be treated as an 'in universe event' while they are still from a higher ontology.
Ayewale
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brother saw 200 posts of arguments, responded to literally none of them and posted a two-liner stating that everyone just has a problem with site standards
actually go through some of the stuff since people were still debating about it
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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How? Why are you not capable of elaborating the simplest thought? How would one who does not see your point be able to agree with you if all you do is send me two lines of text stating that I am wrong because you believe so?
The game-world is the verse itself. You'd need to prove that something higher exists beyond said game world and below our real world.
See, the whole "higher ontology" part has not been proved. At all.
The dialogue very much implies the anomaly is something inside the Universe itself, and then states "that was you, wasn't it?", which can both mean that the anomaly is the heart and/or a being inside said Universe, or just an influence.
Both don't lead to a definitive answer.
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Ultima is probably not going to change his mind anytime soon and since more agreements than disagreements. It's fair to assume this can be applied by any stretch of the word.
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That's randomly personal...I certainly can I was just asked for my input on the thread.
The fact that the player views the game world as you know 'a game' is such evidence.
Again like fundamentally this comes down to if you believe 'the player' sees the gameworld as fiction and I agree with this based on the evidence in the OP so.
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After reading some discussion about this topic and participating in it myself a bit, I'm changing my vote to agreement.
Guardian_Doge
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I still dislike how some of us are being told to "prove ontology" existing in a verse. It's not some grand complex maunder of dialogue like platonism, it's just "the study of being and whether things exist or not". Likewise, I will send the definition of it again. It's extremely relevant to what we're arguing so if we can all understand that it is not a proposition, it is an approach as those are fundamentally two different area's of discussion, we all be fine from this point on.
This is just like the kirby cosmology upgrade again.
This is just like the kirby cosmology upgrade again.
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- Thread starter
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The quote is kinda ambiguous, Flowey might've been talking about sans and alphys there, but he then says this.
I severely doubt either sans or alphys would want to watch their kind get slaughtered. It would makes more sense that Flowey is only referring to the those people who watch videos or livestreams of others playing the genocide route I would think, yea.
anyway, I feel a couple people would appreciate seeing the tally atm, so after counting all the votes this seems to be it.
Agree: Ultima, Greatsage, Yemma, Zencha, ShivaShakti, Deonment, Jibz, livinmeme, originlima, blackcurrant, kingpin (11)
Disagree: ShockingPsychic, Charmander, efficiente, saikou, moritza, the techmaster, Hasty, Risci, Delta333, cosmicwreck (10)
Neutral: Mariogoods (although was fine with low 1-C UT player) , Andytrenom, Digianymore, Doge, Kflare, Tyranodoom (6)
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Deleted member 16409
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Oh my vodka.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 3,849
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Finally, a vote count. Been lurking here for awhile, but refrained from saying stuff until there was a proper count. And getting to the point, I agree with this CRT.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Yay.
12 votes
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Exactly.
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- Thread starter
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For those who haven't voted yet and plan on doing so, now I feel is a good time to do it.
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After reading that back and forth I'm personally in agreement with this CRT
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