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Undertale CRT: Low 1-C Player

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Livinmeme said:
Isn't umineko a special case anyway? Also it doesn't matter for the purpose of the CRT because most here doesn't know much about umineko so is kinda eh...
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No it's not, and i used it because the higher humans there are quite literally the same as the player, that being having no feats beside R.F
 
Zencha9 said:
No it's not, and i used it because the higher humans there are quite literally the same as the player, that being having no feats beside R.F
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And? there are far more examples of verse accepting R>F via seeing another guy as fiction (if valid OFC), so that seems more like that exception not the rule. Also could you stop derailing please
 
Ultima_Reality said:
It's less "Nothing can be symbolic" and more "Why would it be symbolic, to begin with?", really. The foundations of the latter question being something I've already elaborated on up there.
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GodlyCharmander already replied to this bit of the issue in a way that I agree with.
Ultima_Reality said:
So, from what I gather, you're saying that there can be cases where a character perceives a lower reality as being literally fictional compared to itself, but nonetheless is not Low 1-C? If I'm reading this right, then I don't see how this is a counter to any of the above. You haven't provided any reasoning as to why, exactly, they wouldn't be Low 1-C even if they do indeed perceive a lesser universe as fiction. These points make it sound like you have less of a problem with this specific case and more with the fundamentals of how we treat Reality-Fiction differences, which is a topic that's not within this thread's scope.
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"How we treat Reality-Fiction differences" has few and interpretable rules set in stone next to many of the claims you point out.

There is no "lower reality" and "being literally fictional compared to itself". I didn't point out "a lower reality", you assume so as in a perfect scenario in a verse that has someone at Low 1-C they would refer to the reality they see as fiction as a lower reality or the like.

Being literally fictional as in, like fictional things are in our real world, is a good standard, but that's not the same as being called fictional in-universe or representing things that, in our real world, are fictional. You most likely know this, hence you portrayed it as "literally fictional". In 1 verse videogame characters from inside a game can be as fictional as in our real world, in another verse they can have many real qualities to them that real people can see, the game characters can think, act, live in the present like real people, and harm real people if they're in the same room, but they're still fictional by the mere fact that "they're videogame characters inside a game", just because that sentence can be said & be correct. In 1 verse comics may be as fictional as in the real world, in another they may lead to their comic universe where they have the same real qualities said before, but they still are fictional characters as from certain perspective they come from a comic, calling them real or fiction in-universe both work just as good. And so on with examples. We don't clarify how being fictional would lead to Low 1-C and how it would not lead to Low 1-C. If you have your answers to it then those are your personal opinions, nothing we had the ability to foresee and write down.

I could imagine a fictional multiverse and destroy it in my mind, and that's "literally" fiction, if a verse has the latter example with the multiverse being real and the a character imagining it ending up at Low 1-C due to it, then great, maybe we meant this on the stuff we do have written. Replace "imagination" with a "videogame" and "being able to destroy it all" with...not being able to do that, and do following the rules of the game, and things change. More and more examples can be given with more and more limitations put into it, and at one point Low 1-C stops being legit, and we don't say where that point is. For Undertale, Undertale may be in-universe a game for the anomaly to play with, but there's nothing that would make the anomaly Low 1-C for it.

Late edit: Elaborating the latter; fictional works can do anything, they can have animals have human or god-like features, laws of physics exaggerated, etc. Among it they can have places being real that we, real people, would see as fiction. Especially if they take inspiration from sources like religions or ideas in psychology that already propose that and have "fictional" things as even with real things (Matter and mind being equal and existing on their own planes, for example, as the latter plane or world can be called imaginary, and imagination is fiction to us in the real world. Similar with dream worlds). As such, to "See/perceive other realities as fiction" is a very vague standard, it can absolutely lead to characters being Low 1-C, sure, but things being fiction to some characters isn't the same as things being fiction to other characters, and based on what we know of the anomaly, they being Low 1-C could not possibly be concluded.
Ultima_Reality said:
Because as per the Reality Equalization page you've linked, we would treat the world of Undertale as the "baseline," and the Player as something apart from it. We'd need reason to do the reverse and treat the Player as the baseline instead, and if we did that, it would force us to downgrade the setting of the gameworld to 11-A. You can't have your cake and eat it too, in this case.
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I'm not sure if I was ignored. The world outside the baseline world would not have applied the same generosity the baseline world would to get for match-ups and their calcs validated. Sword Art Online, The Matrix and Yume Nikki are the examples the page gives and all have their real worlds with characters there with regular stats, not Low 1-C, because why would the "equalization" of reality reach there. Nothing would make natural and intuitive for the anomaly to be Low 1-C.
Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah, indeed. We don't say it because it is never not enough provided the Reality-Fiction difference is something literal, and done in relation to a Tier 2 realm. As said before, if you see a world as being fictional in comparision to yourself, you are treated as being a level of transcendence above it. That's about it.
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That would be an opinion, and one I easily disagree with. If there is a would-be Low 1-C character due to "the Reality-Fiction difference [being] something literal", and they can be harmed by what they see as fiction, then that's an anti-feat for them, and the Reality-Fiction difference isn't something literal & legit but has other mechanics to it, which would mean that them being Low 1-C is wrong.
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't understand this point. Can you clarify?
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It wouldn't matter from your perspective, which I find inaccurate for Low 1-C stats to be given.
 
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Roachman40 said:
The Player is a rather important character in the world of undertale, and because of this I feel I should point out the few times the existence of a literal player has been pointed out in the game

I would also like to point out that the game mechanics double as in-verse mechanics as well. Such as gerson knowing you cant kill him cause you haven’t entered a fight with him, asgore destroying the mercy button, Chara and Omega Flowey affecting the game window, SAVEs and LOADS, etc.

All-in All, the player exists independently from undertale and sees it only as a piece of fiction, and due to Undertale being canonically acknowledged as a videogame naturally implies that the existence of the player as a very much literal thing. Due to R/F Transcendence, the level of transcendence the player has over the game world is enough to warrant the equivalent of dimensional transcendence, and thus should bring the player to Low 1-C
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What about other characters..?
 
Since I've seen it brought up I should mention that though it is possible for some cross scaling to be made between Chara and the Player the former's feats are in no way the latter's limits in their abilities. Chara is explicitly stated to be powered by their soul and exists as an abstract embodiment of their feelings every time they increase statistics. It makes sense to say whether Chara is low 1-C or 2-C based on the Player. It doesn't make sense to state whether the Player is Low 1-C or 2-C based on Chara. It's just bad, circular scaling, made worse by the fact that they have their own feats anyway so powerscaling like that is unnecessary.

More importantly I feel like most people are ignoring the main problems here. Yes, there is overwhelming evidence that Undertale is a game. The main issue is there is no evidence being brought up that indicates the characters within it, whether The Player or not, are any more or less real or powerful for it so arguments like this:
Ultima_Reality said:
Because as per the Reality Equalization page you've linked, we would treat the world of Undertale as the "baseline," and the Player as something apart from it. We'd need reason to do the reverse and treat the Player as the baseline instead, and if we did that, it would force us to downgrade the setting of the gameworld to 11-A. You can't have your cake and eat it too, in this case.
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Are irrelevant since as Efficiente pointed out the real world is not treated as important enough to the narrative to be viewed as anything, whether that be a lower, higher, or alternate reality which would mean it wouldn't be permissable for use according to the reality equalization page.

It would make more sense to find out if Undertale depicts the Players to be Low 1-C separately from our expectations.

In the dirty hacker ending the player was forced to contact the maker of the game. Not exactly illuminating in itself since no relations to a "real" world was made.

However, it's been revealed that the annoying dog is the maker of the game, who used text-speech to make the world in verse. These two moments should be enough evidence that from the perspective of Undertale, the game world is fictional to the annoying dog and the Player, a similar entity.

If everyone agrees with this reasoning can this be used to replace the OP? Since everyone is just arguing their own point at this point which would make it confusing for future readers to pitch in.
 
CosmicWreck said:
Since I've seen it brought up I should mention that though it is possible for some cross scaling to be made between Chara and the Player the former's feats are in no way the latter's limits in their abilities. Chara is explicitly stated to be powered by their soul and exists as an abstract embodiment of their feelings every time they increase statistics. It makes sense to say whether Chara is low 1-C or 2-C based on the Player. It doesn't make sense to state whether the Player is Low 1-C or 2-C based on Chara. It's just bad, circular scaling, made worse by the fact that they have their own feats anyway so powerscaling like that is unnecessary.

More importantly I feel like most people are ignoring the main problems here. Yes, there is overwhelming evidence that Undertale is a game. The main issue is there is no evidence being brought up that indicates the characters within it, whether The Player or not, are any more or less real or powerful for it so arguments like this:

Are irrelevant since as Efficiente pointed out the real world is not treated as important enough to the narrative to be viewed as anything, whether that be a lower, higher, or alternate reality which would mean it wouldn't be permissable for use according to the reality equalization page.

It would make more sense to find out if Undertale depicts the Players to be Low 1-C separately from our expectations.

In the dirty hacker ending the player was forced to contact the maker of the game. Not exactly illuminating in itself since no relations to a "real" world was made.

However, it's been revealed that the annoying dog is the maker of the game, who used text-speech to make the world in verse. These two moments should be enough evidence that from the perspective of Undertale, the game world is fictional to the annoying dog and the Player, a similar entity.

If everyone agrees with this reasoning can this be used to replace the OP? Since everyone is just arguing their own point at this point which would make it confusing for future readers to pitch in.
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I don't think we should take the dirty hacker ending into consideration, I'm pretty sure its meant to just be a joke and nothing more. I don't get why we should completely change the OP either, although I suppose I can expand it to perhaps clear some things up.
Originlima said:
What about other characters..?
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wdym?
Eficiente said:
That would be an opinion, and one I easily disagree with. If there is a would-be Low 1-C character due to "the Reality-Fiction difference [being] something literal", and they can be harmed by what they see as fiction, then that's an anti-feat for them, and the Reality-Fiction difference isn't something literal & legit but has other mechanics to it, which would mean that them being Low 1-C is wrong.
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When was the player ever harmed by the characters in-game? and if you mean the interaction with chara, there is a lot pointing towards the world being destroyed rather than the player actually being harmed, as mentioned above.
 
Roachman40 said:
I don't think we should take the dirty hacker ending into consideration, I'm pretty sure its meant to just be a joke and nothing more.
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We already use it for evidence as Sans' fourth wall awareness ability though. We already take it into consideration.
4th wall awareness, knows when the player hacks into the game, calling them a "dirty hacker"
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Roachman40 said:
I don't get why we should completely change the OP either, although I suppose I can expand it to perhaps clear some things up.
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Your choice.
 
Crawling back from the grave, I guess.

GodlyCharmander said:
Also valid interpretation of this would be: Undertale is a videogame that has meta elements deeply connected to its narrative and world building, characters and the story telling only consider these elements and mechanics as natural, and this is made so the narrative of the consequences of your actions is much more apparent, as even in this videogame environment, these are "actual people". (As in, your genocidal actions, or someone else's do really affect their lives, and it's not fair for you to just judge them coldly as videogame characters).
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I don't see how this serves as a counterargument, really. What you are outlining to me is effectively just a literary analysis of Undertale that, correct or not, ultimately does not in any way undermine the in-universe perspective of the text, in which the game mechanics are very much cosmological elements, as evidenced by the numerous examples I've listed, some of which are undeniably fundamental parts of the story (SAVEs and LOADs, for instance). "These things are just there to help the story convey a specific message or theme" doesn't take away from the fact that said things very much exist and are acknowledged as existent elements of the world.

Furthermore, one thing I was warry to bring up beforehand because of the potentially dubious status of it is the dirty hacker ending. As CosmicWreck pointed out, if Sans' profile is anything to go by, we consider it to be canon (To my surprise). So, I suppose that's another thing that goes to the list of fourth wall breaks that happen in the game, and which obviously point to Undertale generally treating itself as one.

Continuing into the paragraph below...

GodlyCharmander said:
Of course the interaction with an actual player is what makes the difference, this is exactly why I addressed my example as "not being perfectly comparable". The narrative of Undertale much more points towards your interpretation than your average Isekai, but naturally, the intent of the examples was not to debunk your arguments in their entirety, but rather address a flaw in its basis.
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You say there is a flaw, but as of yet, you haven't really pointed out what, exactly, this flaw is. Or at least you haven't elaborated too much on it: You say that the videogame mechanics and the faked interaction between the game and its audience being integral to the narrative and the setting don't necessarily point to the conclusions drawn by me and the OP, but you haven't explained why that is the case. In fact, from what I see, you agreed with my assessment that the counterexamples you gave weren't really perfectly comparable to Undertale's case, so given that, your claim of "Meta Elements or Mechanics can be applied to a narrative without something like what you are implying" still goes unsubstantiated.

GodlyCharmander said:
Yes. But it actually gives us a reasonable interpretation.
The anomaly very much exists in space-time continuum. It's a fictional force that's very much present inside the universe of Undertale. It's addressed by the narrative directly.
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None of this disagrees with Low 1-C, necessarily. Even in a scenario where we accept the existence of a Reality-Fiction Difference here, what we would be rating obviously wouldn't be the actual, real life player, just a fictionalized version of them, for the purposes of the wiki, no different from how other author characters that are indexed here are. Moreover, Sans saying there is a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum doesn't act as counterevidence for anything, because "anomaly" just means "somehow deviating from the standard scenario." Sans in that monologue is primarily talking about the fact the timeline has been going crazy as of late, so of course that event would be called an anomaly in the spacetime continuum.

So, again, neutral fact that doesn't lend anything to either side of the discussion.

Eficiente said:
In 1 verse videogame characters from inside a game can be as fictional as in our real world, in another verse they can have many real qualities to them that real people can see, the game characters can think, act, live in the present like real people, and harm real people if they're in the same room, but they're still fictional by the mere fact that "they're videogame characters inside a game", just because that sentence can be said & be correct. In 1 verse comics may be as fictional as in the real world, in another they may lead to their comic universe where they have the same real qualities said before, but they still are fictional characters as from certain perspective they come from a comic, calling them real or fiction in-universe both work just as good.
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Eficiente said:
Elaborating the latter; fictional works can do anything, they can have animals have human or god-like features, laws of physics exaggerated, etc. Among it they can have places being real that we, real people, would see as fiction. Especially if they take inspiration from sources like religions or ideas in psychology that already propose that and have "fictional" things as even with real things (Matter and mind being equal and existing on their own planes, for example, as the latter plane or world can be called imaginary, and imagination is fiction to us in the real world. Similar with dream worlds). As such, to "See/perceive other realities as fiction" is a very vague standard, it can absolutely lead to characters being Low 1-C, sure, but things being fiction to some characters isn't the same as things being fiction to other characters, and based on what we know of the anomaly, they being Low 1-C could not possibly be concluded.
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So what you're saying is "There are many ways of seeing something as fiction, and the one that gives Low 1-C shouldn't necessarily be the default"? If so, then I'd say that's not really something that our standards consider to be a thing. To quote the Reality Equalization page:

Additionally, Reality Equalization cannot apply to virtual worlds that exist parallelly to the real world, as those are simply alternate universes, not lower of planes of reality. It also cannot apply to AIs or other electronic entities, as those do not meet the requirements for existing in a lower plane of reality and are instead mere sentient electrical signals.
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To elaborate a bit more on cases of this nature: If, for example, there is a parallel universe that just so happens to be one where the events of other universes are stored as works of fiction (In the vein of Earth-33 from DC), then that would be disqualified from any sort of Reality-Fiction Transcendence because the "real world people" there don't actually hold any sort of transcendence over said works. They are as real as the entities they believe to be characters, and the latter are, speaking from an objective, physical standpoint, no more fictional to them than long-gone historical figures whose biographies are chronicled in books are to us. That would be a case where there is not any form of literal reality-fiction interaction at play, regardless of whatever semantics you want to play around with.

As for the examples you brought to the table: Frankly, they seem to be makeshift ones, so I'd rather you bring up some concrete instances of things that happen in named verses. I really don't think discussing potential slippery slopes that don't actually exist is very productive. As far as I see, none of what you keep saying applies to Undertale.

Eficiente said:
I'm not sure if I was ignored. The world outside the baseline world would not have applied the same generosity the baseline world would to get for match-ups and their calcs validated. Sword Art Online, The Matrix and Yume Nikki are the examples the page gives and all have their real worlds with characters there with regular stats, not Low 1-C, because why would the "equalization" of reality reach there. Nothing would make natural and intuitive for the anomaly to be Low 1-C.
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Not particularly familiar with our treatment of those three cases. I could hazard a guess that they either fall under the above clause in the Reality Equalization page, or that the "real" and "fake" worlds are equally prominent, story-wise, in a way that makes it impossible to treat one as transcendent over the other (I know this is the case in Matrix and Yume Nikki, at least, with the aforementioned tidbit in our article for RE applying especially to the former), but I'd be speaking out of turn here.

Since he seems to have written the Reality Equalization page to begin with, I suppose we could ask Saikou about it?

Eficiente said:
That would be an opinion, and one I easily disagree with. If there is a would-be Low 1-C character due to "the Reality-Fiction difference [being] something literal", and they can be harmed by what they see as fiction, then that's an anti-feat for them, and the Reality-Fiction difference isn't something literal & legit but has other mechanics to it, which would mean that them being Low 1-C is wrong.
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That would depend on a lot. It can easily be that the character that is being seen as fiction happens to have Tier 1 AP, for instance. Otherwise, though, this example is phrased very incoherently: "Well, what if the Reality-Fiction Difference between two characters is established as literal, but it also isn't?".

Otherwise: What I am saying is not really a personal opinion, no, those are our standards, and in the context of this thread, your disagreements with them mean nothing, I am sorry to say. If you want to change our rules on how Reality-Fiction Differences are dealt with, then you are welcome to make another thread, but don't try to stall progress in this one solely because of this.

CosmicWreck said:
More importantly I feel like most people are ignoring the main problems here. Yes, there is overwhelming evidence that Undertale is a game. The main issue is there is no evidence being brought up that indicates the characters within it, whether The Player or not, are any more or less real or powerful for it
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Undertale being perceived as a literal videogame at all while simultaneously being its own, self-contained world would already be taken as evidence of such, so I don't think this is a relevant concern, unless the suggestion is that the Player perhaps just exists in some universe that's disconnected from the gameworld but not transcendent over it (Similar to the scenario I spoke about to Eficiente up there).

You also mentioned the Annoying Dog, but we don't seem to treat him as relevant to the cosmology to begin with, at present, so I don't know how important he is as an example. And even then there's the fact he's just an authorial insertion, and not really Toby Fox "in the flesh" so to speak.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Not particularly familiar with our treatment of those three cases. I could hazard a guess that they either fall under the above clause in the Reality Equalization page, or that the "real" and "fake" worlds are equally prominent, story-wise, in a way that makes it impossible to treat one as transcendence over the other (I know this is the case in Matrix and Yume Nikki, at least, with the aforementioned tidbit in our article for RE applying especially to the former), but I'd be speaking out of turn here.
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Edit: “Within the constraints of fiction itself there can be any number of differences between fiction and reality, but this is not necessarily something particularly impressive by our standards. We still have to evaluate the characters by their respective feats and definitions.”
 
In regards to the whole R/F transcendent part, I do find it a odd thing to understand tbh as I haven’t feel like we never by default assuming reality is infinitely superior to fiction and vice versa towards F>R in specific cases as to me, seems to generate confusion as well.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
So what you're saying is "There are many ways of seeing something as fiction, and the one that gives Low 1-C shouldn't necessarily be the default"? If so, then I'd say that's not really sometimes that our standards consider to be a thing. To quote the Reality Equalization page:

"Additionally, Reality Equalization cannot apply to virtual worlds that exist parallelly to the real world, as those are simply alternate universes, not lower of planes of reality. It also cannot apply to AIs or other electronic entities, as those do not meet the requirements for existing in a lower plane of reality and are instead mere sentient electrical signals."

To elaborate a bit more on cases of this nature: If, for example, there is a parallel universe that just so happens to be one where the events of other universes are seen as works of fiction (In the vein of Earth-33 from DC), then that would be disqualified from any sort of Reality-Fiction Transcendence because the "real world people" there don't actually hold any sort of transcendence over said works. They are as real as the entities they believe to be characters, and the latter are, speaking from an objective, physical standpoint, no more fictional to them than long-gone historical figures whose biographies are chronicled in books are to us. That would be a case where there is not any form of literal reality-fiction interaction at play, regardless of whatever semantics you want to play around with.
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Our standards aren't clear, as said before, hence for example you can clarify something like this:

Obviously, the average Isekai whose characters operate through RPG-like mechanics doesn't necessitate the verse to happen within a literal videogame, but the difference here is that those kinds of verses aren't actually trying to fake any form of interaction between themselves and an external audience, because all of those mechanics are internal and directed to in-universe characters, and not at "us."
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which one can't see elaborated somewhere, despite how game mechanics would intuitively make a reality a game world->games are fiction->and "seeing something as fiction" is the standard stated. Any user can call out a verse to not have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence due to the evidence being too underwhelming in that manner.

The quote you gave simply clarifies some examples of when a reality isn't Tier 11 next a normal reality. This has nothing to do with the idea that our rules have "seeing something as fiction" as standard for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, at all.

I'm familiar with the example, it's easy to see how wrong the standards are with it; The reason why they "don't actually hold any sort of transcendence over said works" is because they're proven not to, in a very explicit way. Once more the premise is that a Reality-Fiction Transcendence would be the standard, normal thing, and that logic is used for the anomaly to be Low 1-C with all the little information we have for them & Undertale. It's not a logical thing to do, it's more of a tradition.
Ultima_Reality said:
As for the examples you brought to the table: Frankly, they seem to be makeshift ones, so I'd rather you bring up some concrete instances of things that happen in named verses. I really don't think discussing potential slippery slopes that don't actually exist is very productive. As far as I see, none of what you keep saying applies to Undertale.
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Undertale is actually theorized to take inspiration of concepts that appear in religions and/or alchemy in a way that would at best recontextualize the idea of the player being Low 1-C, but it is just theory over the more esoteric parts of Undertale, which are purposely made vague, up in the air, and w/o deep elaborations.

I don't see why bring examples, either what I say are anti-feats aren't good enough for the verses to not have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence per our rules rather than an internal logically that builds up Low 1-C, or their anti-feats are too clear & it's wrong to say the verses have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence regardless of there being some "fictional" reality next to a "real" one, no matter how our rules imply otherwise. It's a pretty invincible situation.
Ultima_Reality said:
That would depend on a lot. It can easily be that the character that is being seen as fiction happens to have Tier 1 AP, for instance. Otherwise, though, this example is phrased very incoherently: "Well, what if the Reality-Fiction Difference between two characters is established as literal, but it also isn't?".
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It came derived from "You are real, and fiction can't harm you, but what if Character A who sees/perceives other realities as fiction can be harmed by them". In that case, for the Reality-Fiction Transcendence to still be legit all of those fictional characters would need to have Tier 1 AP, or the real character durability at their level.
Ultima_Reality said:
Otherwise: What I am saying is not really a personal opinion, no, those are our standards, and in the context of this thread, your disagreements with them mean nothing, I am sorry to say. If you want to change our rules on how Reality-Fiction Differences are dealt with, then you are welcome to make another thread, but don't try to stall progress in this one solely because of this.
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I understand why you say that from your perspective, but from mine our standards aren't that. I will try to change our rules of Reality-Fiction Differences in the future, but I can say that the anomaly being Low 1-C is wrong.
 
Undertale is actually theorized to take inspiration of concepts that appear in religions and/or alchemy in a way that would at best recontextualize the idea of the player being Low 1-C, but it is just theory over the more esoteric parts of Undertale, which are purposely made vague, up in the air, and w/o deep elaborations.

I don't see why bring examples, either what I say are anti-feats aren't good enough for the verses to not have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence per our rules rather than an internal logically that builds up Low 1-C, or their anti-feats are too clear & it's wrong to say the verses have a Reality-Fiction Transcendence regardless of there being some "fictional" reality next to a "real" one, no matter how our rules imply otherwise. It's a pretty invincible situation.
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Theorized
 
Greatsage13th said:
We...are not going to pause the CRT because of efficiente's decision to create a CRT to change the tiering system.
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Greatsage, you told them to apply the revision before Efficiente's CRT. This is NOT going to be applied, nor paused.

Livinmeme said:
There are 1 staff and several people agreeing, while disagreeing there is one staff and a guy....Yeah
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"Several people"?
First, common members who aren't even knowledgeable on the verse are not relevant to the discussion. Literally 3 people who never interact with the wiki,
second,
Livinmeme said:
Oh also the staff agreeing is one of the best in the wiki rating cosmology
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That doesn't matter. At all.
Knowing how it works doesn't mean you are capable of arguing it applies to a verse you are not too knowledgeable of, although Ultima isn't ignorant on UT either.
The arguments behind this upgrade depends HEAVILY on interpretation, and the game deliberately trying to portray it's cosmology as a real>fiction interaction, when, again, it might just be a play on narrative. They are not mutually exclusive, nor inclusive, but they do offer explanations for the arguments on the OP.

Low 1-C is faulty, it lacks any sort of hard evidence.
 
That doesn't matter. At all.
Knowing how it works doesn't mean you are capable of arguing it applies to a verse you are not too knowledgeable of, although Ultima isn't ignorant on UT either.
The arguments behind this upgrade depends HEAVILY on interpretation, and the game deliberately trying to portray it's cosmology as a real>fiction interaction, when, again, it might just be a play on narrative. They are not mutually exclusive, nor inclusive, but they do offer explanations for the arguments on the OP.

Low 1-C is faulty, it lacks any sort of hard evidence.
Click to expand...
You know he is the main contributers who helped, revamping the current tier list that R>F works rigth?

Even with that it's still one admin and 2 people (at the very least) vs one admin and one people
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Undertale being perceived as a literal videogame at all while simultaneously being its own, self-contained world would already be taken as evidence of such, so I don't think this is a relevant concern, unless the suggestion is that the Player perhaps just exists in some universe that's disconnected from the gameworld but not transcendent over it (Similar to the scenario I spoke about to Eficiente up there).
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Yes, that's mostly my point.

To extrapolate further, arguments mostly seem to say that whenever there's a meta commentary aspect to a piece of media that automatically this means there is a fictional>reality difference. I disagree. Cartoon characters are no more 2D or 5D for interacting with the audience, Gwenpool's higher perception of reality (from originating in a world where the characters are comic books, allowing her to view the world as the comic book that it is) is noted to being nothing special and she is effortlessly trounced in her own comics.

We don't treat the matrix characters as higher or lower dimensional characters despite being ejected from a simulated reality and despite being a simulated reality the metaverse treats the DDLC universe as no less real than their own.

Basically, just interacting with a simulated universe has never been enough for a 2-D or 5-D rating and I don't understand why the Player is being treated as such.
Ultima_Reality said:
You also mentioned the Annoying Dog, but we don't seem to treat him as relevant to the cosmology to begin with, at present, so I don't know how important he is as an example. And even then there's the fact he's just an authorial insertion, and not really Toby Fox "in the flesh" so to speak.
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Fair. There's nothing I can say if Annoying Dog isn't regarded as cosmology relevant.

Roachman40 said:
@Livinmeme @Originlima @CosmicWreck @Blackcurrant91 It seems yall haven't voted yet, do yall disagree, agree, or neutral with the thread so far?
Click to expand...
Disagree. Literally none of the proponents for the upgrade have brought up any evidence to make me see how reality fiction differences are at all relevant here (I mean, it's certainly possible but most people seem to be arguing over semantics so hard disagree until someone comes up with actual evidence).
 
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