Undertale CRT: Low 1-C Player

[Roachman40]

The Player is a rather important character in the world of undertale, and because of this I feel I should point out the few times the existence of a literal player has been pointed out in the game

• Flowey reveals that you, the player, still have the ability to reset and destroy everything.
• The player is recognized by sans, being considering an anomaly in the spacetime continuum
• Flowey outright states that undertale is a game, and right after states that if you win the game, you would stop playing with him.
• At the end of the genocide route, chara seems to be directly speaking to you, the player.

I would also like to point out that the game mechanics double as in-verse mechanics as well. Such as gerson knowing you cant kill him cause you haven’t entered a fight with him, asgore destroying the mercy button, Chara and Omega Flowey affecting the game window, SAVEs and LOADS, etc.

All-in All, the player exists independently from undertale and sees it only as a piece of fiction, and due to Undertale being canonically acknowledged as a videogame naturally implies that the existence of the player as a very much literal thing. Due to R/F Transcendence, the level of transcendence the player has over the game world is enough to warrant the equivalent of dimensional transcendence, and thus should bring the player to Low 1-C

 

[guguk01]

Following

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A few nitpicks I have: Flowey talking about how the whole situation Frisk got themselves into is a game is itself fairly ambiguous, and may be moreso just his twisted perception of events, than anything, although given the whole context of Undertale, him meaning it literally is very possible, yes.

Should also point out, for people reading this thread, that the heart in the game window breaking because of Chara destroying the world is an edit made specifically for that video. Although I believe they still do affect the window itself otherwise (It shakes, and "UNDERTALE" vanishes from the upper bar)

Overall, all of this seems fine to me. The current profile seems to go off of the idea that The Player may be just some in-universe entity that acts as a stand-in for the audience, as opposed to the literal person playing the game, but this seems a bit silly, given Undertale acknowledges that it is a video game plenty of times and makes actual narrative points out of that acknowledgement. We don't have much of a reason or precedent to assume The Player is anything but us, given that.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Noice

 

[Sniper670]

Agree with this upgrade

 

[Andytrenom]

I have always interpreted it as the entity being an in universe representation of the player but I guess it's never actually confirmed.

I'm neutral here

 

[Mariogoods]

I'm neutral here since it seems that the CRT assumes Undertale player and Deltarune player are the same. And while waiting for the plot revealing more information, the current evidence you used is fine and it may be able to be applied.

 

[Zencha9]

i share the same thoughts as ultima

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Personally, I don't think the Player exists in-universe, I just haven't had the energy to make a CRT. At the very most, the player is represented by Chara, the first fallen human. However, here, I just want to talk about the points being raised.

• Flowey reveals that you, the player, still have the ability to reset and destroy everything.

He's not talking to the Player here, he's speaking to Chara. This is confirmed by the last word of the speech, when he says "Chara" (2:21). As we know, Chara does have the power to reset everything, so I don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value.

• The player is recognized by sans, being considering an anomaly in the spacetime continuum

This isn't the Player either. Sans says "we noticed an anomaly in the spacetime continuum", and the next turn says, "you know something about that, don't you".

The implication here is that Frisk's resets, or Flowey's, for that matter have been recorded by Sans and whoever he was working with.

Personally, I think it's Flowey. Sans can say this even if Frisk hasn't used their time powers (no saving/loading/resetting), however we know that Flowey was abusing the SAVE/Reload system long before Frisk ever showed up. It seems more likely, given the timeframe and context, that he is talking about Flowey.

What about this line even implies he's speaking about the player in the first place? The Player's name used to be "The Anomaly", before it was decided that this line from Sans likely didn't have any relation to them.

• Flowey outright states that undertale is a game, and right after states that if you win the game, you would stop playing with him.

This is admittedly a bit tricky, however there's a difference between Flowey saying "this is all just a game" and "this is all just a video game".

Flowey thinks he is god at this point, and is saying that he treats life as a game.

I can make a comparison to Deltarune, where Jevil also seems to break the 4th Wall by saying that everything is a game. However, this isn't a 4th Wall Break, he's saying that his worldview has become that of life being a mere game.

Neither of these characters are saying that they know they are in a video game, just that they view the world as a "game" in the metaphorical sense.

• At the end of the genocide route, chara seems to be directly speaking to you, the player.

Also cannot be the Player. While Chara does stare directly at the screen, so does every monster while in a battle.

In this conversation, Chara takes note of "your human SOUL". This says that they are speaking to Frisk, who has a human SOUL, while the Player does not. You could make the argument that Frisk's SOUL can still be the Player's due to them controlling Frisk, however this makes things more complicated than the most obvious answer. Either;

A.) Chara is speaking to the human in front of them, whom holds a Human SOUL.

B.) Chara is speaking to an entity controlling Frisk, an entity who has not been proven to exist in any meaningful capacity, and never mentions the fact that Frisk is a "vessel", and instead calls the SOUL the Player's.

All-in All, the player exists independently from undertale and sees it only as a piece of fiction, and due to Undertale being canonically acknowledged as a videogame

Again, not a video game, just a game. This was likely said in a metaphorical context. The only 4th Wall Break in the series that cannot be explained via in-universe mechanics are the title changing to "Undertale: The Musical" during Mettaton's song (Low 1-C Mettaton, anyone?) and Chara deleting files/shaking the game window.

I wrote this not too long after waking up, so sorry if my grogginess bleeds through lol

 

[Greatsage13th]

Personally, I don't think the Player exists in-universe, I just haven't had the energy to make a CRT. At the very most, the player is represented by Chara, the first fallen human. However, here, I just want to talk about the points being raised.


He's not talking to the Player here, he's speaking to Chara. This is confirmed by the last word of the speech, when he says "Chara" (2:21). As we know, Chara does have the power to reset everything, so I don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value.


This isn't the Player either. Sans says "we noticed an anomaly in the spacetime continuum", and the next turn says, "you know something about that, don't you".

The implication here is that Frisk's resets, or Flowey's, for that matter have been recorded by Sans and whoever he was working with.

Personally, I think it's Flowey. Sans can say this even if Frisk hasn't used their time powers (no saving/loading/resetting), however we know that Flowey was abusing the SAVE/Reload system long before Frisk ever showed up. It seems more likely, given the timeframe and context, that he is talking about Flowey.

What about this line even implies he's speaking about the player in the first place? The Player's name used to be "The Anomaly", before it was decided that this line from Sans likely didn't have any relation to them.


This is admittedly a bit tricky, however there's a difference between Flowey saying "this is all just a game" and "this is all just a video game".

Flowey thinks he is god at this point, and is saying that he treats life as a game.

I can make a comparison to Deltarune, where Jevil also seems to break the 4th Wall by saying that everything is a game. However, this isn't a 4th Wall Break, he's saying that his worldview has become that of life being a mere game.

Neither of these characters are saying that they know they are in a video game, just that they view the world as a "game" in the metaphorical sense.

Also cannot be the Player. While Chara does stare directly at the screen, so does every monster while in a battle.

In this conversation, Chara takes note of "your human SOUL". This says that they are speaking to Frisk, who has a human SOUL, while the Player does not. You could make the argument that Frisk's SOUL can still be the Player's due to them controlling Frisk, however this makes things more complicated than the most obvious answer. Either;

A.) Chara is speaking to the human in front of them, whom holds a Human SOUL.

B.) Chara is speaking to an entity controlling Frisk, an entity who has not been proven to exist in any meaningful capacity, and never mentions the fact that Frisk is a "vessel", and instead calls the SOUL the Player's.


Again, not a video game, just a game. This was likely said in a metaphorical context. The only 4th Wall Break in the series that cannot be explained via in-universe mechanics are the title changing to "Undertale: The Musical" during Mettaton's song (Low 1-C Mettaton, anyone?) and Chara deleting files/shaking the game window.

I wrote this not too long after waking up, so sorry if my grogginess bleeds through lol

Iffy

 

[Roachman40]

This is admittedly a bit tricky, however there's a difference between Flowey saying "this is all just a game" and "this is all just a video game".

Flowey thinks he is god at this point, and is saying that he treats life as a game.

I can make a comparison to Deltarune, where Jevil also seems to break the 4th Wall by saying that everything is a game. However, this isn't a 4th Wall Break, he's saying that his worldview has become that of life being a mere game.

Neither of these characters are saying that they know they are in a video game, just that they view the world as a "game" in the metaphorical sense.

How would Flowey not know he is in a game when he literally changes the intro screen and the game name in the omega flowey fight? and as ultima said above, while I can see that him saying what he said because of the unfortunate way he views things, given the whole context of Undertale, and how meta it is, Flowey meaning it literally is very possible. Chara also manipulating the game files I feel does somewhat imply they know they are in a game as well.

He's not talking to the Player here, he's speaking to Chara. This is confirmed by the last word of the speech, when he says "Chara" (2:21). As we know, Chara does have the power to reset everything, so I don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value.

Aye, that was because the person named themself chara, if you name yourself something different, flowey wont say chara. I would also like to point out that choosing to True Reset post-true pacifist does seem like something we, the player, actually did. I dont see Chara doing it either considering they directly tell us in a second genocide run that the player and them are not the same. their choices are completely separated from ours. So Chara probably didn't do a True Reset after True Pacifist since we had full control of our actions and chose to do it, unlike in the genocide run where Chara forcefully takes the control from us.

This isn't the Player either. Sans says "we noticed an anomaly in the spacetime continuum", and the next turn says, "you know something about that, don't you".

The implication here is that Frisk's resets, or Flowey's, for that matter have been recorded by Sans and whoever he was working with.

Personally, I think it's Flowey. Sans can say this even if Frisk hasn't used their time powers (no saving/loading/resetting), however we know that Flowey was abusing the SAVE/Reload system long before Frisk ever showed up. It seems more likely, given the timeframe and context, that he is talking about Flowey.

What about this line even implies he's speaking about the player in the first place? The Player's name used to be "The Anomaly", before it was decided that this line from Sans likely didn't have any relation to them.

iirc it was because immediately following the sans fight was chara scene of talking to the player, and sans doesn't seem to be referring to frisk at all either. Although admittedly, sans referring to flowey's tomfoolery does sound like the much more probable outcome.

Also cannot be the Player. While Chara does stare directly at the screen, so does every monster while in a battle.

In this conversation, Chara takes note of "your human SOUL". This says that they are speaking to Frisk, who has a human SOUL, while the Player does not. You could make the argument that Frisk's SOUL can still be the Player's due to them controlling Frisk, however this makes things more complicated than the most obvious answer. Either;

A.) Chara is speaking to the human in front of them, whom holds a Human SOUL.

B.) Chara is speaking to an entity controlling Frisk, an entity who has not been proven to exist in any meaningful capacity, and never mentions the fact that Frisk is a "vessel", and instead calls the SOUL the Player's.

I was always under the assumption that chara was controlling frisk and just projecting their appearance, considering the game implies that Frisk ‘becomes’ Chara over the course of the game, a good example being the multitude of times we lose control of frisk throughout the genocide run. Otherwise, Chara not mentioning the fact that frisk is a vessel I dont think is very significant, considering that dosen't seem to be of chara's concern, and I feel the 'SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?' line is something pointed toward the player, someone who was very much controlling frisk throughout the game until the end of the genocide route where we completely lose control of frisk to chara, it seems.

I don't see how it would be so far-fetched that chara was referring to the Player's soul either, considering the literal person playing the game is very much human, although I can see why you have suspicions on that.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

How would Flowey not know he is in a game when he literally changes the intro screen and the game name in the omega flowey fight?

I'll fully admit that the way the game portrays this is vauge. While the intro is altered and the game name is changed, this could either be Flowey changing real-world files around or just game mechanics created to make the game more spooky. As I said before, Mettaton of all people is capable of doing things like this a a gag.

Aye, that was because the person named themself chara, if you name yourself something different, flowey wont say chara.

The specific name "Chara" is irrelevant here. Flowey will always say te name entered at the start of the playthrough, which is referring to the First Fallen Human. While the player (out of universe) does input this name, this is a very common thing, even in non-metafiction series. Pokémon sees the player input their Trainer's name, early Zelda games allow the player to name Link. While Undertale being metafiction may be a counterpoint, how the human got their name is never treated as some kind of major plot point. If anything, it's already subverted expectations enough, as the name you input isn't the character you control, but rather a character crucial to the backstory of the world.

I would also like to point out that choosing to True Reset post-true pacifist does seem like something we, the player, actually did. I dont see Chara doing it either considering they directly tell us in a second genocide run that the player and them are not the same.

"My "human soul." My "determination." They were not mine, but yours."

The quote is referring to Frisk and Chara being separate, with the Player not being brought in at all. As I said before, the Player has no Determination, and lacks a Human soul, but Frisk does.

(Note: It's important to remember that Determination is a physical, presumably liquid substance that Human SOULs contain rather than just the emotion/concept.)

Given that Flowey specifically calls out the First Fallen Human (canonically known as Chara) as being the one able to reset everything, it shouldn't be a huge leap in logic to assume that they are the one who performs the True Reset.

I was always under the assumption that chara was controlling frisk and just projecting their appearance, considering the game implies that Frisk ‘becomes’ Chara over the course of the game, a good example being the multitude of times we lose control of frisk throughout the genocide run.

I wouldn't say that Frisk physically becomes Chara over the course of the game, but it would appear they somehow change over the course of a Genocide Run. Asgore doesn't recognize Frisk as human, while he does in the Pacifist route.

While the times we lose control in the Genocide route are clearly emphasized, there are times where Frisk takes actions by themselves. They stand up in Waterfall after falling, for example.

Otherwise, Chara not mentioning the fact that frisk is a vessel I dont think is very significant, considering that dosen't seem to be of chara's concern, and I feel the 'SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?' line is something pointed toward the player, someone who was very much controlling frisk throughout the game until the end of the genocide route where we completely lose control of frisk to chara, it seems.

I think the "YOU" here makes more sense when put into the context of "YOU" being Frisk. Chara gives Frisk two options, and when Frisk picks the less desired option, Chara lets them know that they have been in control (I.E. the many times they act alone) for a while. Admittedly, it's confusing, as Chara contradicts themselves. They say "SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?" while also saying "They were not mine, but yours."

I don't see how it would be so far-fetched that chara was referring to the Player's soul either, considering the literal person playing the game is very much human, although I can see why you have suspicions on that.

The "literal person" in an in-universe context would not have a Human SOUL, as the Player doesn't physically exist as a human in the world of Undertale. While in an out-of-universe context, it's obvious that the player is human, but we don't follow the rules of Undertale's universe. All that to say - Chara wouldn't be telling us (players) about our souls.

Meanwhile, Chara is specifically referring to the heart-shaped "Human SOUL" that Frisk has, and the Determination inside it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Again, not a video game, just a game. This was likely said in a metaphorical context. The only 4th Wall Break in the series that cannot be explained via in-universe mechanics are the title changing to "Undertale: The Musical" during Mettaton's song (Low 1-C Mettaton, anyone?) and Chara deleting files/shaking the game window.

There is no evidence of a distinction between fourth wall-breaking elements and in-verse mechanics, especially given how important examples of the latter are depicted and introduced to us as the former. That they are, in fact, one and the same is only made more egregiously obvious by the numerous instances where characters are shown messing around with the gameworld (Flowey changing the intro and causing the game to crash, Chara damaging the window itself, everything Sans does in his boss fight, the Amalgamates, and etc)

He's not talking to the Player here, he's speaking to Chara. This is confirmed by the last word of the speech, when he says "Chara" (2:21). As we know, Chara does have the power to reset everything, so I don't see why we shouldn't take this at face value

Flowey talking to Chara in the final scene makes no real sense because Chara themselves only had the power to directly affect the gameworld once they reached "the absolute" as the culmination of all of Frisk's efforts in the Genocide Route. Prior to that, there is nothing showing that they had any power to influence the world whatsoever. And even beyond that, as far as I am aware nothing suggests Chara brought back the world through a Reset, so there is no real precedent for that either.

 

[DigiAnymore]

I'm neutral.

 

[Roachman40]

bump

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree with the upgrade

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Likewise, I remember seeing this discussion, I'm alright with the upgrade.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

UGGGGGGGGHHHHH....

I hate it here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

• Flowey outright states that undertale is a game, and right after states that if you win the game, you would stop playing with him.

Purposely ambiguous line. Flowey might have, and very likely is, referring to the game of "resetting", since he says it after the neutral route.

And being independent of a 4D structure doesn't mean you see it as fiction, or that you are infinitely above it in terms of existence. Plus, you're not getting a Tier out of existing in a different dimensional plane.

The best you could argue is the "Higher Dimensional Existence" hax, but even that is based on non-sequitur evidence. Overall, there is no evidence that the player:

• Sees the UT world as fiction.
• Transcends it in the sense of being a unquantifiably infinity above said fiction.
• Can have an actual output based on its hypothetical dimensional existence. And no, time manipulation doesn't qualify as Low 1-C power output.

Also, player characterized as an entity in the game would already defeat half these arguments, as they can't be referring to us, literal real people, otherwise the profile wouldn't be able to exist.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Purposely ambiguous line. Flowey might have, and very likely is, referring to the game of "resetting", since he says it after the neutral route.

Actually, screw the ambiguous part. Look 10 seconds after the game line, and Flowey verbatim refers to this as "this little game between us".
It's not a 4th wall break, stop being unreasonable for the sake of an agenda.

This upgrade's evidence is dogshit

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I have always interpreted it as the entity being an in universe representation of the player but I guess it's never actually confirmed.

I'm neutral here

If it's not an actual character, delete the profile. This literally makes no sense, reality is "beyond Tier 1" in relation to any work of fiction in all scenarios.

 

[Zencha9]

cope and seethe

 

[GodlyCharmander]

cope and seethe

Nice rebuttal. Getting something with as much basis as me claiming I'm Superman getting upgraded to such a high tier is extremely stupid.

I will have to call as many supporters as possible to set this down. This looks like this has been set up and planned alongside them, never in over 30 threads had these staff commented in anything UT-related, now this extremely sketchy upgrade is getting overwhelming approval or neutrality from Staff that never engages with UT threads in general?

Absolutely not.

 

[Zencha9]

Nice rebuttal. Getting something with as much basis as me claiming I'm Superman getting upgraded to such a high tier is extremely stupid.

I will have to call as many supporters as possible to set this down. This looks like this has been set up and planned alongside them, never in over 30 threads had these staff commented in anything UT-related, now this extremely sketchy upgrade is getting overwhelming approval or neutrality from Staff that never engages with UT threads in general?

Absolutely not.

it was the french

 

[Jinsye]

I will have to call as many supporters as possible to set this down. This looks like this has been set up and planned alongside them, never in over 30 threads had these staff commented in anything UT-related, now this extremely sketchy upgrade is getting overwhelming approval or neutrality from Staff that never engages with UT threads in general?

Tinfoil hat moment, especially since you're kinda wrong. Ultima and Annie have both been involved with Undertale-related threads on this wiki in the past, with Annie being a very staunch supporter of the series. She doesn't even agree with the upgrade, so why are you pointing at him with suspicion?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tinfoil hat moment, especially since you're kinda wrong. Ultima and Annie have both been involved with Undertale-related threads on this wiki in the past, with Annie being a very staunch supporter of the series. She doesn't even agree with the upgrade, so why are you pointing at him with suspicion?

Because it does seem like it.
Random user makes a massive upgrade based on "sketchy-at-best" evidence and immediately the staff are okay with it? Suspicious.

Either way, the logic behind it is faulty, extremely so. You don't get Low 1-C AP based on utterly nothing.

 

[deonment]

sketchy-at-best
when the character literally has an r/f over all of undertale

It's about as sketchy as someone telling me that despia definitely does brick and doesn't open branded fusion or a way to reach it every single ******* game

 

[Zencha9]

you can't say sus without us ♥

 

[deonment]

Zencha i will personally send you back to Druler format and make you play glad beast

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This isn't a chat room. If you're actively not partaking into the discussion or addressing each other's arguments, do not derail the thread with filler content. Fortunately, this is rulebreaking, so, I will peacefully ask both of you, once, to not make comments that add absolutely nothing to the topic at hand.

 

[KingPin0422]

Currently neutral for now, but I lean towards agreement.

 

[deonment]

Anyways yeah agree with the OP, I don't buy into being sketchy given that just saying that this clear as day R>F that undertale shows us isn't ambiguous, nor is it disqualified by it being a stand-in for the actual irl player

 

[Eficiente]

This is unbelievably stupid, honestly.

"R/F Transcendence" went too out of hand in its use, it's more appealed as a rule that "should" allow Low 1-C rather than Low 1-C being logically concluded. If the real world & reality was nothing but a comic to a Low 1-C realm in the same way we see a comic, with everything there being nothing, all points in time there from the start to end being nothing, then that's all 1 thing. But if the comic was some place that character X can appear in and have god-like powers, but with rules & limitations to it, in which they exist only in the present regardless of what more fancy superpowers they can do to time, and there is no implication to this being nothing to character X, then that's not the same. Yeah they can mess with a reality that's "a comic", and in our real world "the setting inside a comic is nothing", but it's beyond stupid that this was some rule that always applies to realities that were portrayed as some work of fiction from the point of view of another reality, that's made up and dogmaic. Same with "a dream", "a game", "a tv show/movie", etc. Fiction can just as likely make them ways to enter into other realities just as real, or inferior in some regards, but w/o a Low 2-C / Low 1-C difference between them.

Not to mention, even if there was a Low 2-C / Low 1-C difference (there isn't), Undertale, the game that canonically uses game mechanics, would not be real like our reality while whatever's beyond is Low 1-C, Undertale would be fiction like a game and whatever's beyond would be real like our reality. You're not Low 1-C. At least when I handled DDLC going "it's all data, we're all fiction or AIs" I made sure to clarify we were using Reality Equalization for simplicity's sake, here there are no excuses, standard battle assumptions doesn't 1-up the complexity of realities in this context, you just have to portray things honestly how they are.

As implied before, the player is, in fact,

• Some force that controls Frisk's actions, thereby time
• And also controls time in some ways on their own
• Controls the fate (poetic) of the characters at their mercy, thus everything being a game to them
• And also is implied to do what it does in a videogame-like way

But also

• Only controls Frisk from the start of the story to its end, later being told to please leave things as they are. As in, they can't do anything beyond to restart from points from where they were as Frisk and do other actions, it's a limit they have.
• Only controls the fate of the characters up to the multiple options of programmed ways they can, and they can't for example attack the turtle, attack Sans if he moves from where Frisk's attack lands, and wait for their turn. That's a limit, and yes we know it's the player against Sans as he refers to and is talking to them. Flowey also references options of things that can be done as limited.
• Has their own version of in-universe natural powers (DT, which comes via feeling determined), not the reality warping O. Flowey has or even what Chara can do over the game. They are helpless against even Sans, everything they do is by the book. What they can do is, as far as we know, the options of things the game itself allows them to do to the game itself, not their own power that they would be able to apply to other realities that aren't Undertale. As in if you can play a game in which you can doble jump and pass through walls then cool, if you play another game then you may not be able to do that anymore, same if you play a game that allows you to do more "cool and meta things", other games won't have that, it's not your power.

And they rely entirely on speculation and dogmatism; anyone can feel like they're the player playing a game from outside it and that they're like as real as you are to Undertale with Undeertale being as fiction as it is to you and that that's all canon, but what the game really shows it's that it's an esoteric being with op superpowers, with Deltarune implying it's not from the same universe if you wanna add that up. But that's about it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

This is unbelievably stupid, honestly.

Did you really have to start off like this?

• LAnd they rely entirely on speculation and dogmatism; anyone can feel like they're the player playing a game from outside it and that they're like as real as you are to Undertale with Undeertale being as fiction as it is to you and that that's all canon, but what the game really shows it's that it's an esoteric being with op superpowers, with Deltarune implying it's not from the same universe if you wanna add that up. But that's about it.

What?

 

[Eficiente]

No, sorry for sensitivities' sake, I imagined it was small. The degree of inaccuracy I see for the extraordinary claim proposed next to the reasons for it remain the same.

Don't "what?" that, it's not like it can be proven otherwise. Most characters in the game don't know about them, Sans knows but has no idea what it is exactly and is vague about it, it has powers & a will of their own, and Chara wants their power, that's about it. I "can" be more redundant about the info we have, but I shouldn't because it isn't worth it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No, sorry for sensitivities' sake, I imagined it was small. The degree of inaccuracy I see for the extraordinary claim proposed next to the reasons for it remain the same.

Don't "what?" that, it's not like it can be proven otherwise. Most characters in the game don't know about them, Sans knows but has no idea what it is exactly and is vague about it, it has powers & a will of their own, and Chara wants their power, that's about it. I "can" be more redundant about the info we have, but I shouldn't because it isn't worth it.

Degree of inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated, Ultima wouldn't normally agree with this unless the basis of the claim is solid, most of us know that.

The 2nd one, I'll see what will the others' response be, I have no rebuttals for this.

 

[KingPin0422]

"R/F Transcendence" went too out of hand in its use, it's more appealed as a rule that "should" allow Low 1-C rather than Low 1-C being logically concluded. If the real world & reality was nothing but a comic to a Low 1-C realm in the same way we see a comic, with everything there being nothing, all points in time there from the start to end being nothing, then that's all 1 thing. But if the comic was some place that character X can appear in and have god-like powers, but with rules & limitations to it, in which they exist only in the present regardless of what more fancy superpowers they can do to time, and there is no implication to this being nothing to character X, then that's not the same. Yeah they can mess with a reality that's "a comic", and in our real world "the setting inside a comic is nothing", but it's beyond stupid that this was some rule that always applies to realities that were portrayed as some work of fiction from the point of view of another reality, that's made up and dogmaic. Same with "a dream", "a game", "a tv show/movie", etc. Fiction can just as likely make them ways to enter into other realities just as real, or inferior in some regards, but w/o a Low 2-C / Low 1-C difference between them.

If I'm reading this right, you seem to have the idea that beings on higher levels of existence should be "omnipotent" relative to the cosmology beneath them, able to do as they please without limitations. Except that's not necessarily the case. We are absolutely not like that to fictional media in any case, nor could we just go to a lower-dimensional universe and toy with it freely.

Experiencing a passage of time is also not quite an anti-feat unless you're supposed to be "beyond space-time" or whatever, which isn't always the case for tier 1, and no one is arguing that here. We as 3-D beings still exist in the first two dimensions, and a 4-D being would still have to exist in the previous three dimensions, etc.

(And just so you know, I didn't contradict myself here- both "we can't interact with lower-dimensional stuff" and "as 3-D beings we still exist in the first two dimensions" should be obvious to anyone, as long as they use their brain.)

Not to mention, even if there was a Low 2-C / Low 1-C difference (there isn't), Undertale, the game that canonically uses game mechanics, would not be real like our reality while whatever's beyond is Low 1-C, Undertale would be fiction like a game and whatever's beyond would be real like our reality. You're not Low 1-C. At least when I handled DDLC going "it's all data, we're all fiction or AIs" I made sure to clarify we were using Reality Equalization for simplicity's sake, here there are no excuses, standard battle assumptions doesn't 1-up the complexity of realities in this context, you just have to portray things honestly how they are.

Well, that's not what our standards on this are, so go revise those if you don't like it. Also, doesn't this contradict your previous point?

As implied before, the player is, in fact,

• Some force that controls Frisk's actions, thereby time
• And also controls time in some ways on their own
• Controls the fate (poetic) of the characters at their mercy, thus everything being a game to them
• And also is implied to do what it does in a videogame-like way

But also

• Only controls Frisk from the start of the story to its end, later being told to please leave things as they are. As in, they can't do anything beyond to restart from points from where they were as Frisk and do other actions, it's a limit they have.
• Only controls the fate of the characters up to the multiple options of programmed ways they can, and they can't for example attack the turtle, attack Sans if he moves from where Frisk's attack lands, and wait for their turn. That's a limit, and yes we know it's the player against Sans as he refers to and is talking to them. Flowey also references options of things that can be done as limited.
• Has their own version of in-universe natural powers (DT, which comes via feeling determined), not the reality warping O. Flowey has or even what Chara can do over the game. They are helpless against even Sans, everything they do is by the book. What they can do is, as far as we know, the options of things the game itself allows them to do to the game itself, not their own power that they would be able to apply to other realities that aren't Undertale. As in if you can play a game in which you can doble jump and pass through walls then cool, if you play another game then you may not be able to do that anymore, same if you play a game that allows you to do more "cool and meta things", other games won't have that, it's not your power.

None of what you said is an anti-feat, though? Obviously we have to follow the rules of whatever media we consume, but like I said above, we evidently are not "omnipotent" to fiction.

And they rely entirely on speculation and dogmatism; anyone can feel like they're the player playing a game from outside it and that they're like as real as you are to Undertale with Undeertale being as fiction as it is to you and that that's all canon, but what the game really shows it's that it's an esoteric being with op superpowers, with Deltarune implying it's not from the same universe if you wanna add that up. But that's about it.

???????

What are you even saying here? With all due respect, I genuinely cannot comprehend you right now.

 

[deonment]

As implied before, the player is, in fact,

• Some force that controls Frisk's actions, thereby time
• And also controls time in some ways on their own
• Controls the fate (poetic) of the characters at their mercy, thus everything being a game to them
• And also is implied to do what it does in a videogame-like way

But also

• Only controls Frisk from the start of the story to its end, later being told to please leave things as they are. As in, they can't do anything beyond to restart from points from where they were as Frisk and do other actions, it's a limit they have.
• Only controls the fate of the characters up to the multiple options of programmed ways they can, and they can't for example attack the turtle, attack Sans if he moves from where Frisk's attack lands, and wait for their turn. That's a limit, and yes we know it's the player against Sans as he refers to and is talking to them. Flowey also references options of things that can be done as limited.
• Has their own version of in-universe natural powers (DT, which comes via feeling determined), not the reality warping O. Flowey has or even what Chara can do over the game. They are helpless against even Sans, everything they do is by the book. What they can do is, as far as we know, the options of things the game itself allows them to do to the game itself, not their own power that they would be able to apply to other realities that aren't Undertale. As in if you can play a game in which you can doble jump and pass through walls then cool, if you play another game then you may not be able to do that anymore, same if you play a game that allows you to do more "cool and meta things", other games won't have that, it's not your power.

And they rely entirely on speculation and dogmatism; anyone can feel like they're the player playing a game from outside it and that they're like as real as you are to Undertale with Undeertale being as fiction as it is to you and that that's all canon, but what the game really shows it's that it's an esoteric being with op superpowers, with Deltarune implying it's not from the same universe if you wanna add that up. But that's about it.

This doesn't work, because even though the player is infinitely greater than the Undertale world they still interface with it through the medium of a game and as such are constrained by its limits. When you play a game IRL you are still confined by the rules of the game even though you are much greater than it, you cannot break the rules without breaking the game itself, same for a book, one of the main examples we use for R>F, you cannot change the story of the book without changing the book itself. In fact, this even more so proves that the player is tier 1 as they are literally unable to do anything to the world of Undertake without first interfacing through the game because they are literally ontologically greater than it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Degree of inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated, Ultima wouldn't normally agree with this unless the basis of the claim is solid, most of us know that.

The 2nd one, I'll see what will the others' response be, I have no rebuttals for this.

Sorry, but the "This person agreed, so you must be mostly inaccurate" mentality is completely biased.
You don't disagree with their arguments, you disagree with them because they disagree with someone you look up to.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

In fact, this even more so proves that the player is tier 1 as they are literally unable to do anything to the world of Undertake without first interfacing through the game because they are literally ontologically greater than it.

A being disconnected from the main universe being unable to change the world outside its rules isn't evidence of R>F, it's a neutral point that doesn't support neither side. For this argument to be of support for "R>F", you would have to assume "R>F" is already a reality to begin with, thus, creating a circular argument.