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Undertale Player Downgrade - Part II

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StrymULTRA

StrymULTRA

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We have previously downgraded the Player prior to the creation of the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page from Low 1-C to just 2-C/2-B.

However, now that the page exists, we can keep talking about this "character".

The little we know, basing on their page is:
  • Thanks to their Determination Chara was able to return to life and reach their Absolute
  • Chara took their Soul
  • They control Frisk and Kris in Undertale and Deltraune respectively
  • They can erase/create/overwrite timelines
  • They can do a TRUE RESET
Now, about the rest...

likely Higher-Dimensional Existence, Large Size (Type 9), and Acausality (Types 1 and 4. As the player, it exists completely outside of Undertale and views its reality as merely a videogame. Considering this, it is unaffected by the RESETS done by Frisk and is unbound by it)

Issue is that nothing hints at this making them literally Multiversal-sized.

The Dirty Hacker Ending was discarded long ago as being non-canon here, and thus the Player seeing the cosmology as literally just small datas has 0 proofs now. Meaning that we should remove the following:
  • Higher-Dimensional Existence
  • Type 9 Large Size
  • Type 4 Acausality
  • Immeasurable Lifting Strength, which will become simply Unknown
Type 1 Acausality is still fine, as they're still outside the game and are unaffected from the RESETs or TRUE RESETs in the same way Chara is. Type 4 however not really, as the Player is too vague to reach such a conclusion.

And if someone tries to still make Low 1-C a thing, from the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page, we have the following:

Additionally, the showings should be reasonably clear. Vague cameos of author avatars, hints at a "player" character without further context or similar things should be disregarded. In such cases it simply can't be sufficiently ascertained that the world is viewed as true "fiction". In some cases it's not even clear if it's more than a simple nod to the audience or humorous instance of Breaking the Fourth Wall, which is not to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

Now, I am not saying that this is merely a gag, come on now. But it's just that we know waaay too little on the Player to claim yet they're fully transcendent on the Game World, we do not even know if they're even a human.

Also them being able to perform a TRUE RESET would be irrelevant, as 3D beings like Chara/Asriel can do so as well.

So it's better to play safe than sorry, and just list what we know about them without giving ratings or P&A based on assumptions with little to no backing.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
  • Thanks to their Determination Chara was able to return to life and reach their Absolute
Click to expand...
More than it. Chara's still a character in the game, their Determination, human soul & feeling of when a stat increases isn't Chara's, but the player's. This is never explained and is of course poetic for "you chose to do evil, like this evil kid", but the wording doesn't have it as in "Chara took advantage of all those things from someone else, someone super more complex", the wording has it that their Determination, human soul & feeling of when a stat increases is the same & thus as complex. Chara even tells the player "Our plan had failed, hadn’t it?" pointing to a time way before we played anything, and later Chara says "But you and I are not the same, are we?"+which they follow up with how the soul of the player has positive feelings, which is telling as Chara needs to ask to themselves how they're not the same, as in, if it weren't for that 1 difference, maybe Chara would still think they're the same.

Playing along the stats given to the player, why would Chara, before reaching their absolute, when killing monsters 1 by 1, and when needing to possess Frisk, have this much stuff the same as the player's? Why does Chara act like their identity and the player's is the same or very similar? It's pretty underwhelming stuff for an entity as complex as the player is claimed to be.

Removing all assumptions and stating only the facts, this is what we have: "The player"/anomaly is a supernatural entity with ties to Chara; they have a different individuality from Chara in some ways (Sentience), and they have the same individuality in some other ways (Determination, human soul, feeling of when a stat increases, some but not all forms of individuality). The anomaly controls Frisk partially and has a morality that starts at neutral & can go anywhere from there, as it chooses. The anomaly always had this partially shared individuality with Chara (or at least since Chara's plan before their death). The anomaly is 100% a being in-game because of this, and because Sans and Chara talk about it and talk to them respectively. The anomaly can give power to Chara when doing enough of certain evil actions. We (you) start controlling the anomaly at the start of the story, not at the start of the anomaly's existence.

You may see how some things in UD start making more sense like this, but make no mistake, this were the facts followed by things that add up, not some assumptions to make things add up.
 
Bro

Player is literally us, Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice.
 
Originlima said:
Bro

Player is literally us, Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice.
Click to expand...
Since Deltarune 2015-2018.
Gaster already were taunting on it, saying it directly to us.

And then Gaster's message in 2018 saying that we have a deal.
We get new experience.
Gaster gets his experiment or whatever is it - done.
 
Eficiente said:
You may see how some things in UD start making more sense like this, but make no mistake, this were the facts followed by things that add up, not some assumptions to make things add up.
Click to expand...
I don't see how this adds something to the OP. I'll take it as an agreement though?
 
Tbh player is heart sized
Deltarune helps with that
 
I am inclined to agree with this crt, was fairly vocal on my sentiment in the previous crt in that the entity is way too ambiguous of a character to warrant low 1-C of all things, and Higher-Dimensional Existence, Large Size, and Acausality should probably go for the same reasons.
 
Originlima said:
Soul is just the thing what connects us and UT world, without it it would be impossible to watch this world in first place.
Click to expand...
So? How does this impact the CRT anyway, because the Player entity is clearly not the same as us, Chara didn't take our literal Soul.

It's even said in the R>F page that no character can interact with literally us.

It should be noted that despite whatever the author may intend, a characters cannot interact with the true Real World that we all live in. The Real World can be simulated by fiction, but it will never be the true reality. Thus, characters that exist in the 'real world' such as The Player (Imscared) and SCP-001 (S Andrew Swann's Proposal) would be fictional representations of real people, and not actual real people who exist.
Click to expand...
 
Originlima said:
Bro

Player is literally us
Click to expand...
You just feel that way, we were not there during Chara's plan. You don't even reply to that and I don't even know if you read it.
Originlima said:
Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice.
Click to expand...
Many things wrong. 1) Deltarune is its own game with the same, similar and different things from Underlate. You can't randomly grab things from Deltarune to claim that the same must be the case in Undertale.

2) This is not binary, the anomaly having a voice doesn't invalidate it being an in-game being as if it not having a voice would tell us otherwise. You made it up. It's a pointless fact.

3) One could imagine the anomaly having a voice anyway, given it can reply to Chara.

4) Deltarune stated nothing in terms of a Low 1-C player. Meanwhile, it did show Chara/a Chara-like character controlling Kris. You do realize that everything you think is the player can just be Chara, right? Because they have a similar function and a continuation of their story means they have the player's soul while still being a game character.
Originlima said:
Since Deltarune 2015-2018.
Gaster already were taunting on it, saying it directly to us.

And then Gaster's message in 2018 saying that we have a deal.
We get new experience.
Gaster gets his experiment or whatever is it - done.
Click to expand...
Already covered above. None of this is evidence.
StrymULTRA said:
I don't see how this adds something to the OP. I'll take it as an agreement though?
Click to expand...
Yes. I pointed out how further stuff that shows the anomaly as an in-game character is that the anomaly is part of Chara, a game character, and was part of Chara in their backstory before we controlled the anomaly like a player.
 
The "Player" seems to be an entity that is part of the story and not a literal representation of us viewing the game as fictional.

I agree with the changes, those abilities shouldn't be there.
 
And now, here the wrecking ball comes.
Eficiente said:
You just feel that way, we were not there during Chara's plan. You don't even reply to that and I don't even know if you read it.
Click to expand...
Ah yeah, "feel that way", while abc123 exist with the clear things.
Eficiente said:
Many things wrong.
Click to expand...
Yeah, for example most of your arguments.
Eficiente said:
1) Deltarune is its own game with the same, similar and different things from Underlate. You can't randomly grab things from Deltarune to claim that the same must be the case in Undertale.
Click to expand...
I'm aware that Deltarune is a different game, but still there's still some things stating that this's a game and we're just the player.
Just Deltarune covers its, since we're not in-line character but someone from outside world and Gaster can also travel between games leaving some notes.

And remember that Player literally shares same profile
Eficiente said:
2) This is not binary, the anomaly having a voice doesn't invalidate it being an in-game being as if it not having a voice would tell us otherwise. You made it up. It's a pointless fact.
Click to expand...
Straw man argument, bravo!!!!
Eficiente said:
3) One could imagine the anomaly having a voice anyway, given it can reply to Chara.
Click to expand...
And in same time, we never actually did reply ever.
Eficiente said:
4) Deltarune stated nothing in terms of a Low 1-C player. Meanwhile, it did show Chara/a Chara-like character controlling Kris. You do realize that everything you think is the player can just be Chara, right? Because they have a similar function and a continuation of their story means they have the player's soul while still being a game character.
Click to expand...
Am I trying to make Player L1c? Nah, I'm came here because i sensed wrong information.
Eficiente said:
Already covered above. None of this is evidence.
Click to expand...
You didn't covered, most of the time it was a straw man or made up shit.
Eficiente said:
Yes. I pointed out how further stuff that shows the anomaly as an in-game character is that the anomaly is part of Chara, a game character, and was part of Chara in their backstory before we controlled the anomaly like a player.
Click to expand...
So Chara is the one who made a deal with Gaster, mhm. Totally right.

And in the same time, we have only 1 thing to be there and it's basically a SOUL.
Its unknown what or which SOUL it's actually is, but if we woke up Chara with it, then yes, it's the part of a Soul.

SOUL isn't our IRL Soul, it's a just a way to connect this world with someone outside the world lore-wise.
 
Unless I'm mistaken the Player CRTs are starting to ping-pong. I don't disagree with OP's arguments but these are not too different from the ones made in the Low 1-C player thread. Heck, the Player Downgrade thread was made barely two months after the original had conluded.
Whatever the conclusion of this CRT is, I would hope there's some sort of discussion rule made on the topic, not to ban Player discussions entirely but at least to prevent ratings from changing every two months for the same reasons.

(I would also hope that this CRT gets a loot of votes before being passed so that we can reach some sort of conclusive verdict)
 
Ayewale said:
Unless I'm mistaken the Player CRTs are starting to ping-pong. I don't disagree with OP's arguments but these are not too different from the ones made in the Low 1-C player thread. Heck, the Player Downgrade thread was made barely two months after the original had conluded.
Click to expand...
This thread was made as a continuation of that one, the Player's tier was downgraded but they kept abilities they shouldn't have.
 
Ayewale said:
Unless I'm mistaken the Player CRTs are starting to ping-pong. I don't disagree with OP's arguments but these are not too different from the ones made in the Low 1-C player thread. Heck, the Player Downgrade thread was made barely two months after the original had conluded.
Whatever the conclusion of this CRT is, I would hope there's some sort of discussion rule made on the topic, not to ban Player discussions entirely but at least to prevent ratings from changing every two months for the same reasons.

(I would also hope that this CRT gets a loot of votes before being passed so that we can reach some sort of conclusive verdict)
Click to expand...
This CRT is the sequel of MY previous one lmao.
 
Is nobody gonna say anything about Oriinlina's attitude? The staff particularly? The fact that they didn't means I need to cover it as I reply to them.
Originlima said:
And now, here the wrecking ball comes.

Ah yeah, "feel that way", while abc123 exist with the clear things.
Click to expand...
That minor disrespect would be alright but the comment you reply to brings a point you yourself don't reply to, leaving you just acting smug about how right you are. This is a bad contribution to any debate.
Originlima said:
Yeah, for example most of your arguments.
Click to expand...
No reason to be a dick. Think what happened in the thread, I said things, you replied to them very poorly and vaguely, and I replied to that by saying much the same, you can't then be unsatisfied with someone's points when you already had a chance to explain your position but you actively chose to be vague and elaborate very little. You would have saved time by replying properly to my first comment and explaining well your points in your second comment.
Originlima said:
I'm aware that Deltarune is a different game, but still there's still some things stating that this's a game and we're just the player.
Just Deltarune covers its, since we're not in-line character but someone from outside world and Gaster can also travel between games leaving some notes.

And remember that Player literally shares same profile
Click to expand...
Again, it's not binary, the anomaly acting like a player of a game doesn't mean that it can't be an in-game character. You appear say things like "from outside world" and "can also travel between games" basically like it has to mean "they have to be super beings that view this all like games; they can travel between games" when this is portrayed in-game as Dimensional Travel as going from 1 timeline to another, ie a super mundane power you don't need to be Low 1-C to have. Now, of course, you may say "I already knew that", just like you said "I'm aware that Deltarune is a different game" before; I don't care, not out of apathy but because you in both cases presented information dishonestly while not adding the stuff that invalidates your argument. I say things that need to be said because they need to be said, not solely because I assume you don't know them.

Iirc I was there in the thread that chose to do that, I'm changing my mind about it for the reasons I gave.
Originlima said:
Straw man argument, bravo!!!!
Click to expand...
You're again being a dick for no reason, one can call an argument a straw man while being decent about it, and that's not even being a gentleman this is you acting in a way that's below standard. It's not a straw man, you were super vague about your argument on what appeared to be how the Player is literally us in a Low 1-C way saying "Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice." as if it were saying "Deltarune already stated it; it said that we have a deal with some Voice." because when you say "Deltarune already stated it" you don't back that up, you follow it with "saying that we have a deal with some Voice."
Originlima said:
And in same time, we never actually did reply ever.
Click to expand...
Another poor effort put into explain whatever you mean to say. The anomaly could reply things like yes or no to Chara, therefore it did so, simply as that, meaning that there is no such thing as "we never actually did reply ever". It's like you're being a contrarian for no reason.
Originlima said:
Am I trying to make Player L1c? Nah, I'm came here because i sensed wrong information.
Click to expand...
First time you're saying that, you didn't communicate that at all by saying "Bro

Player is literally us, Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice." as a reply to a comment that supports this thread, which is about downgrading the anomaly. I would have needed to be a wizard to know you weren't trying to do that.
Originlima said:
You didn't covered, most of the time it was a straw man or made up shit.
Click to expand...
Once more you come up like a contrarian for no reason. You never ever reply to the fact that the anomaly was a character during Chara's plan and you are not aware of the fact that your lack of communication made this back & forward worst.
Originlima said:
So Chara is the one who made a deal with Gaster, mhm. Totally right.
Click to expand...
Once more rather than be clear on what you mean you put a bigger effort on just acting smug to feel good on how right you perceive yourself to be. You quote something I say but you don't reply directly to it. Chara wasn't necessarily the one to make the deal with Gaster.
 
Not necessarily a fan of this "but Chara is the one controlling things in Deltarune" when it's only a theory and it's more likely just the Player.

But besides that, I'll just ignore @Originlima if replying to them doesn't contribute to anything.
 
Eficiente said:
Is nobody gonna say anything about Oriinlina's attitude? The staff particularly? The fact that they didn't means I need to cover it as I reply to them.

That minor disrespect would be alright but the comment you reply to brings a point you yourself don't reply to, leaving you just acting smug about how right you are. This is a bad contribution to any debate.
Click to expand...

Eficiente said:
No reason to be a dick. Think what happened in the thread, I said things, you replied to them very poorly and vaguely, and I replied to that by saying much the same, you can't then be unsatisfied with someone's points when you already had a chance to explain your position but you actively chose to be vague and elaborate very little. You would have saved time by replying properly to my first comment and explaining well your points in your second comment.

Again, it's not binary, the anomaly acting like a player of a game doesn't mean that it can't be an in-game character. You appear say things like "from outside world" and "can also travel between games" basically like it has to mean "they have to be super beings that view this all like games; they can travel between games" when this is portrayed in-game as Dimensional Travel as going from 1 timeline to another, ie a super mundane power you don't need to be Low 1-C to have. Now, of course, you may say "I already knew that", just like you said "I'm aware that Deltarune is a different game" before; I don't care, not out of apathy but because you in both cases presented information dishonestly while not adding the stuff that invalidates your argument. I say things that need to be said because they need to be said, not solely because I assume you don't know them.

Iirc I was there in the thread that chose to do that, I'm changing my mind about it for the reasons I gave.

You're again being a dick for no reason, one can call an argument a straw man while being decent about it, and that's not even being a gentleman this is you acting in a way that's below standard. It's not a straw man, you were super vague about your argument on what appeared to be how the Player is literally us in a Low 1-C way saying "Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice." as if it were saying "Deltarune already stated it; it said that we have a deal with some Voice." because when you say "Deltarune already stated it" you don't back that up, you follow it with "saying that we have a deal with some Voice."

Another poor effort put into explain whatever you mean to say. The anomaly could reply things like yes or no to Chara, therefore it did so, simply as that, meaning that there is no such thing as "we never actually did reply ever". It's like you're being a contrarian for no reason.

First time you're saying that, you didn't communicate that at all by saying "Bro

Player is literally us, Deltarune already stated it saying that we have a deal with some Voice." as a reply to a comment that supports this thread, which is about downgrading the anomaly. I would have needed to be a wizard to know you weren't trying to do that.

Once more you come up like a contrarian for no reason. You never ever reply to the fact that the anomaly was a character during Chara's plan and you are not aware of the fact that your lack of communication made this back & forward worst.

Once more rather than be clear on what you mean you put a bigger effort on just acting smug to feel good on how right you perceive yourself to be. You quote something I say but you don't reply directly to it. Chara wasn't necessarily the one to make the deal with Gaster.
Click to expand...
My entire ******* counter argument was erased by security error

Its dismorals a lot
 
anyway prob will write my argument again a bit later.

trust me, I have a lot of iinformation to even base on
 
Sucks when it happens. In any case, you don't necessarily need to reply to things 1 by 1 rather than state your position once and be clear about it, if it matters to the thread.
 
*He does (Minor)

I also want to talk about/aim to modify other things on the profile, but we can wait until this is applied first.
 
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