Touhou's Outdated 6-C Calc

[DxGenesis]

Nah, I'd rather delete them than having 63 pages which list both speed, attack potency, striking strength and durability as unknown based off sheer laziness of the fanbase on wiki because I know they will mever be updated.

Ah shit. I forgot that rating also affected durability and striking strength.

In any case I think fairies can have a solid rating. That is 10-C because most official sources list them as being weak as ****.

"Fairies are weak. They often appear as generic, weak stage enemies alongside phantoms and flying yin-yang, and often appear in game just for the sake of being defeated. Unlike spirits, though, most fairies can speak, according to one of ZUN's e-mails. Daiyousei is an exception for having a greater amount of power among the fairies.

When the Three Fairies of Light, who are considered stronger among the fairies, together fought Yukari Yakumo, they were unable to inflict any damage and were called "very weak". In Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, the fairies Cirno and Sunny Milk were evaluated with danger level "low". Hieda no Akyuu wrote that it is safe to even go and take revenge for their mischief by capturing them. However, Cirno and Lily White are comparatively strong, so they can be dangerous to the ordinary human.

Sometimes they play "pranks that go too far", like making humans fall from cliffs, and that would be a dangerous aspect of them. Thus, Akyuu recommended to take caution in places where a fairy might be there.

Sunny Milk once said that Lily White was dangerous and one must not get close to her. According to Akyuu, Cirno is one of the stronger of the fairies, and since she is used to battle, Cirno has the upper hand even if she goes against all Three Fairies of Light at the same time, as shown in Fairy Wars. Among the fairies, she also has a greater tendency to fight, which makes her more dangerous than normal fairies. According to Eiki Shiki, Yamaxanadu, Cirno has quite a bit of power despite being a fairy.

In Touhou Sangetsusei, the Three Fairies of Light have had their power levels remain constant throughout. Daiyousei was remarked to be "one with power among the fairies". Thus, to normal fairies, she has more power than the average one, but not enough to match Cirno's level. The fairies appear very powerful in Fairy Wars, but it was in Cirno's perspective, and she is just capable to stand against Marisa Kirisame, a powerful human.

Clownpiece is an exceptionally powerful fairy, the strongest that has appeared so far[15] and that even Hecatia Lapislazuli considers to be quite strong,[16] who is capable of fighting against other strong characters such as Reimu Hakurei and Marisa."


So 10-C for the Fairies and a "likely higher" for Cirno who could maybe kill a human if she wanted. And I think with that it wouldn't be too bad if the speed remained unknown.

I'll check out the rest. Even if they were all downgraded to 10-B they still could remain on the basis of having good hax.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

So there are no usable feats for the low tier?
I'm not really sure about that, but what about Sumeriko's last word (1:13)? It seems to me that Sumeriko creates a bright light that makes clouds fade. I guess we can just scale the low tier from Sumeriko. There are also Iko Nagae using lighting which I guess we can use KE from it. I had also fond that feat I guess we can use it? I am sure we can found some wall level suff too and everage faires would become just 10C because they are weaker than normale humans (I have no idea why they was 6C at the fisrt place)

Also a wild idea, but I think it is really possible to scale them from the black hole that the hight tier was scale from it before. Spell card battles are supposed to be fair between anyone fight using spell cards rules, so all of them should be able to survive Suika's black hole. since it will so unfair if Suika just destroy most of her opponents using a black hole in a spell card match.

 

[DxGenesis]

If no other feats are found just make the fairies and anyone else who has no reason to be equal to a human 10-C. Everyone without physical feats 10-B. And anyone who scales to Hong Meiling 10-A.

 

[00potato]

Hong is 10-A?
That just feels wrong. Why is she that much weaker than the rest of the mansion folk? Isn’t she the security guard?

 

[DxGenesis]

She was already 6-C to everyone else in the mansion being a timeline buster. So it's not like anything is changing.

 

[00potato]

It still makes no sense either way but that is an issue for another time.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

The faires speed should scale from the High tier too IIRC, They shown to keep up with Clownpiece and Okina Matara, There also the fact that Spell card matches depense in how quick you are, it will be so dumb for anyone to not go with his fastest in a game is all about how fast and swift you are

I want also to said that the Hight tier do not scale from that calc in speed, they scale from Intersteler travel feats

If no other feats are found just make the fairies and anyone else who has no reason to be equal to a human 10-C. Everyone without physical feats 10-B. And anyone who scales to Hong Meiling 10-A.

I have alredy mention some feats, but I just now can think about a peak human feat for Cirno. Cirno has a hobit for freezing frogs and either watch the the ice melting slowly or break they apart. I am sure break frog size ice cube will be peak human

10A Meiling is dumb, she should be High 6A since she beat the Giant Catfight who was able to shock the earth using Meiling energy and he himself was able to destroy the earth surface by himself (I know it is dream but as seen in Touhou 15.5, your Dream self has the same powers and abilites as your true self). The reason for the Giant Catfish be high 3A/low 2C is bad (He scale from Reimu and Marisa because he can shapeshift into them)

 

[DxGenesis]

Ok whatever. Just please don't delete them because there are ways to rate them reliably and I'm willing to implement whatever change is agreed on.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I find also a thread about upgrading Merry AP due to her turning a Gravestone

I guess the profiles will go that way

10C or 10B for evergae faires (Due to them be weaker than humans)
10A or 9C for Maribel Hearn and Renko Usami (Whatever turning a gravestone is)
9C for Gensokyo humans (stronger than normal humans)
9C for powerfull faires and weak yokais (Cirno break apart freezed frogs) possibe far higher (whatever Nitori water dragon, Sumeriko fading clouds and Cirno attack KE but with scale it speed from lighting tier is)
High 6A for Hong Meiling and Giant Catfish for reasons above (And possible High 3A/Low 2C since it is so weird for Meiling be all taht weak)
IKu should be High 3A/Low 2C due to her be the massenger of dragons, It make no sense for one of the strongest characters in the seires having a Pathetically weak masenger
If my wild idea is not all that wild, we can just scale all of them from the black hole

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Sorry if that Question was dumb but we not using freezing feats right? but what if the freezing feat (the feat not the one done the feat) was seen weak and unimpressive can we use it then for scaling?

 

[Wokistan]

"I am sure break frog size ice cube will be peak human"

Probably not. Ice has a really low j/cc, and frogs aren't very big.

 

[Antvasima]

Ok whatever. Just please don't delete them because there are ways to rate them reliably and I'm willing to implement whatever change is agreed on.

This seems reasonable to me.

We need suggestions for feats to scale them to though.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean tbf the KE of the ice can still be measured, it's just not the extremely exaggerated Speed of Light KE as the calc suggests, because it randomly presumes an attack that has "light" in the name is light speed, and that the ice attack being potrayed faster magically implies that it is FTL even though it is blatantly not.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Has there been any other feats that arent freezing?

 

[The_Impress]

...why were they rated 6-C in the first place if this was the ONE calculation backing it up? It's a blatant outlier anyways then

 

[DxGenesis]

Has there been any other feats that arent freezing?

Cirno's ball KE but fixed, Nitori's dragon, Sumireko's cloud thing, Hong fighting the catfish,... (Which I'm not sure who it would scale to or if it's High 6-A or High 3-A).

This seems reasonable to me.

We need suggestions for feats to scale them to though.

In my opinion it should be like this:

Most Fairies should be 10-C.

Gensokyo humans should either be at least 10-B (Or a bit higher depending on how much more powerful they are compared to normal humans), or scale to Cirno's ball feat if it turns out to be accepted and have a good result.

Cirno and anyone who scales to her should either be "Possibly whatever tier the humans have" or the Tier her ice ball feat has if it's good and accepted.

Characters who scale to Nitori or Sumireko but not Hong should have whatever Tier is calculated for the feats mentioned above. If those are unimpressive or invalid and no other feats exist they just default to 10-B.

Characters who scale to Hong should be at the very least 10-A, or High 6-A or High 3-A to Low 2-C depending on how the catfish feat is evaluated.

Any character who doesn't scale to any of the previous or has any AP feats just defaults to 10-B.

However we haven't listened if Saikou has anything to say, so I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

[The_Impress]

Saikou said he's too busy IRL to bother with this stuff supposedly :V

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Saikou said he's too busy IRL to bother with this stuff supposedly :V

Coward, he was said the same thing when thr vocaloid downgrade was still a thing >:v

 

[The_Impress]

Promestein states they likely retain their FTL speeds by scaling to Sunny Milk, who has this feat listed in her profile

 

[Promestein]

I dunno why they'd have to be deleted. Many of these weaker Touhous have hax even if their stats aren't particularly impressive or known.

Sunny has a speed feat on her page of deflecting light attacks with her light powers. Judge that as you will. I dunno about AP stuff but I never particularly liked the 6-C. Renko and Maribel should definitely be 10-B. If there's other potentially usable feats just get them calced.

Lifting a gravestone is not an AP feat. The Catfish's feat is EXTREMELY vague.

"I am the legendary Supreme Catfish.
I need but move and the earth itself will tremble, the lands on the surface will disintegrate."

Not that it ******* matters.

Because it's a ******* dream.

 

[The_Impress]

I dunno why they'd have to be deleted. Many of these weaker Touhous have hax even if their stats aren't particularly impressive or known.

Because they're getting listed as such out of sheer laziness :V

Improper representation is grounds for deletion :/

 

[Promestein]

I guess that's why this thread is happening and why people are discussing it, because people are too lazy to use their heads. You're right, Zark, clearly no one in a 61-post long thread that's discussing potential alternatives for tiering gives a shit.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Characters who scale to Nitori or Sumireko but not Hong should have whatever Tier is calculated for the feats mentioned above. If those are unimpressive or invalid and no other feats exist they just default to 10-B.

The Three faires of light tank that water dragon, so the water dragon thing should scale to the weak youkai and the strong faires too

I guess we should just reclac Cirno KE (but with using Iku's lighting for scaling the speed)

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that it is better to keep the profile pages and simply try to tier them more accurately.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Promestein states they likely retain their FTL speeds by scaling to Sunny Milk, who has this feat listed in her profile

This isn't an FTL feat by several miles. An attack just being called light or having the word "light" in the attack name does not make it the speed of light, and that light doesn't seem to be moving realistically as it takes the form of pellets.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yeah, even if the pellets were light, you'd then have to prove they're moving at light speed, and not just packets of concentrated light moving at an ambiguous speed.

 

[Promestein]

As I said, 'judge that as you will'.

 

[Mariogoods]

Because of real life issue, I cannot look every official Touhou stuff (and I'm currently watching Sun Wukong stuff). However, I'd like to say that fairies' physical strength and their strength with their power should be separated. (not to say that they are "canon like a kid physically and mentally" even if they may be older than even your oldest living family member, which should be better to be noted in standard fighting tendency)

Because of the nature of their bullet hell game, FTL bullet is hard to determine (and some defeat feat).

 

[Wokistan]

Crim said there were some tier 8 feats in the manga, so we can see what's up with that

 

[Antvasima]

@CrimsonStarFallen

Are you willing to help out here?

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

When are we gonna use Suika dispersing an infinite sized realm in finite time calc and scale it to people who managed to dodge her attacks?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'll look for some feats. Touhou is a really expansive series, so it may take a while. Sorry for not appearing yesterday btw, wasn't really in the mood, plus i have other CRTs to go help out.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. We appreciate the help.

 

[The_Impress]

Ba-bump-a!

This has been dead for 4 days, clock's tickin'

 

[SuperAPM]

I agree with 10-C Insects

Epic

 

[Antvasima]

So does anybody have some good ideas regarding how we should solve this?

 

[Wokistan]

"clock's tickin'"

That was for "no responses within a week", not "the whole revision has to be done in a week"

 

[Tllmbrg]

Can we just nuke the pages already?

 

[Antvasima]

No, Touhou is a rather prominent verse. Deleting all of the many pages in it would be complete overkill. Let's try to solve the problem instead.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Is it really?
Like, outside the time stop chick do people really care for the rest?

Considering the actual supporters been pretty much radio silent and we got barely any feats after a few days just nuking seems easier