Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[OverlordDonnelly]

The Sanzu river feat is still not valid, its size changes, as long as it does we can't slap infinite speed onto it for some vague ******* statement just because you can find a way to justify it. Its size varies. It will never be a valid speed feat unless someone explicitly moves across an infinite distance.

My only real question to add on here is, does the statement from the newly released 17.5 about the river having an infinite water supply, affect the size of the river's location?

As I said earlier, while there's no absolutely direct confirmation in this statement (though I would definitely consider this new statement supporting evidence, personally) about the river's length being infinite, wouldn't the river having an infinite amount of water in it mean that the river's location is infinite in size, whether it be length or depth?

 

[AKM sama]

@Malomtek Please refrain from calling others' arguments wank. It provokes them and leads to derailment. If you think they are wank, just debunk them. No need to gloat.

@Others Calling some argument "wank" is not something to get upset over and raise your swords, especially in a vs debating circle. Wank and downplay are popular vs debating terms that are subjective and relative according to each person's view. It can sound rude, but get some thicker skin. It's common and not against the rules.

@Everbody No need to turn this thread into a bickering match again. Arguments can get heated. Take a step back when that happens. I am late to make this post but please keep that in mind going forward. And don't reply to this comment.

 

[Mobi2]

Chill out.

The Sanzu river feat is still not valid, its size changes, as long as it does we can't slap infinite speed onto it for some vague ******* statement just because you can find a way to justify it. Its size varies. It will never be a valid speed feat unless someone explicitly moves across an infinite distance.

I wasn't arguing infinite speed just that the water supply was infinite. I was trying to establish extra information about the river.

 

[Urshani]

i walked back in thread, saw malomtek arguing again

When will this end?

 

[Mobi2]

That's (basically) what I said, but these people just wouldn't listen. It's nice to see my arguments echoed by staff though. However, I am indeed sorry that you had to see the increased toxicity of the people supporting such arguments in this thread.

Hold up did you think I was arguing for infinite speed via the Sanzu river?

 

[Malomtek]

Hold up did you think I was arguing for infinite speed via the Sanzu river?

You did seem to go with the general consensus of the 2hu supporters in this thread, although maybe I was too quick to jump the gun concerning your intentions.

i walked back in thread, saw malomtek arguing again

When will this end?

When you understand that I have a right to speak here too.

 

[Malomtek]

As I said earlier, while there's no absolutely direct confirmation in this statement (though I would definitely consider this new statement supporting evidence, personally) about the river's length being infinite, wouldn't the river having an infinite amount of water in it mean that the river's location is infinite in size, whether it be length or depth?

I'm pretty sure the "infinite water supply" statement (rather vague on its own) doesn't mean that the river already has an infinite amount of water "stored" within it, especially given how its size can vary without overflowing.

 

[Urshani]

When you understand that I have a right to speak here too.

i mean, you do, but ya kinda need to post scans

 

[Malomtek]

i mean, you do, but ya kinda need to post scans

Scans for what?

 

[Urshani]

Scans for what?

your arguments

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

Thank you for helping out.

So what changes do you think need to be made to the Touhou profile pages?

 

[RethPo]

I dont think theres any more scans that can be brought up here tbf.

Ive already started to change the profiles back to the original high 3-A ratings.

 

[Braking]

rip 2-c touhou, so can we put back the goku vs sakuya match now? sorry if this is derailing

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The size of the Sanzu River is infinite in at least some extent without Komachi's spatial manipulation, unless you want to argue that she is also creating an infinite amount of water to go along with it (which would be yet another H3-A feat lmao) and the river just coincidentally happened to be infinite solely due to Komachi's spatial manip during the entirety of the events of 17.5. The latter assumptions are just ridiculous and have no real evidence to back them up. The river is clearly infinite regardless of what Komachi does to it.

Also, the TH17 protagonists also cross Higan on their way to Hell, which is stated to be endless in PMiSS. It doesn't have a variable size like the Sanzu does, nor does Akyuu comment on its size with any degree of speculation or uncertainty like she did for the Netherworld. so I see no reason why this would be invalid.

Sorry for the late response I somehow managed to sleep for half the day lmao

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2-C Touhou isn't dead, we're just holding off on it for the sake of ease of discussion. Forcing people to dig through 4-5 pages of circular arguments and stonewalling will get us nowhere.

 

[Braking]

o k

 

[RethPo]

Cant see it being brought back unless pretty clear evidence is given, but yee its done

I mean... if "endless" isnt a hyperbole or anything though im not sure.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't think a new thread will really convince anyone that Doremy is 2-C if they already think she isn't, its just more convenient to put all the arguments into a single CRT so anyone who wants to give input won't have to dig through 11 god damn pages. Who knows, maybe it will convince someone, but with the current state of this thread, we're not really getting anywhere.

Didn't we have an entire attempted downgrade thread on the basis of "it sounds like hyperbole"? It wasn't a valid argument then, and it shouldn't be now. Honestly, it might be worth making a discussion rule about this. Maybe a few other things about Touhou would qualify?

 

[Malomtek]

I dont think theres any more scans that can be brought up here tbf.

Ive already started to change the profiles back to the original high 3-A ratings.

I guess those ratings are a fair compromise given what's been said in this thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Woah, Malomtek accepting universal Touhou? Never thought I'd see the day. This isn't meant as an insult I'm just genuinely surprised because previously you've never budged on this issue.

I guess all that's left to do is wait for an evaluation on Kaguya's speed and corridor related feats? Hard to believe the finish line is in sight, I really thought this thread was never gonna close at this rate.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

The Sanzu river feat is still not valid, its size changes, as long as it does we can't slap infinite speed onto it for some vague ******* statement just because you can find a way to justify it. Its size varies. It will never be a valid speed feat unless someone explicitly moves across an infinite distance.

Just to answer this:
The river by itself doesn't really changes constantly, at least generally speaking. It's size only varies due to Komachi's ability that allows her manipulate its distance and send the spirits towards Higan. But generally speaking, as she says, for living beings the width of the river it's in fact infinite, see here:

Return! For living humans, the width of the Sanzu River is infinite! I won't let you cross!

That's also supported in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, in which Ran explains how does the river itself can be infinite depending on how much the ferryman it's paid:

Humans may not know what factor determines this, but it has been said to be the ferryman's fee.
The more you pay the ferryman, the shorter the distance.
Plotting the curve of this inversely proportional function, we see that the closer to 0 you pay the ferryman, the closer the distance approaches infinity; the more you pay, the closer the distance approaches 0.

So in this context, in which neither Reimu, Marisa or Youmu paid Komachi to travel throughout Sanzu River, they in fact had to passed throughout an infinite distance in order to reach Higan.

Also, shouldn't be better if you keep your language at bay? It's not like it really bothers me, but reading things such as "vague ******* statement just because you can't find a way to justify it" it's really funny and hilarious, kek.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

Thank you for helping out.

So what changes do you think need to be made to the Touhou profile pages?

@Promestein

This discussion is not going anywhere, and has repeatedly turned hostile, so I would greatly appreciate if you are willing to help me properly finish it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So just to recap, what we have left to do is get a calc for Kaguya's speed, re-evaluate her corridor related feats (the L2-C creation of it and Reisen's infinite speed door closing), and now that Hecatia has provided new evidence, the infinite speed Sanzu River crossing debate is still alive.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

the infinite speed Sanzu River crossing debate is still alive.

Well I just wanted to clarify that. I think if the speed is not yet concluded it would be better to make another thread just for that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's true, if other people here think infinite/immeasurable speed should be saved for another thread then I would be okay with that.

 

[Malomtek]

get a calc for Kaguya's speed

I think @Promestein pretty clearly established that any calc involving Kaguya's "instant" abilities or whatever would just be considered calc stacking. So no go there.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, not quite. That was under the assumption that we were using her range to calc her speed; The current calc that needs to be done is scaling her ability to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed, which Promestein accepted IIRC.

 

[Malomtek]

No, not quite. That was under the assumption that we were using her range to calc her speed; The current calc that needs to be done is scaling her ability to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed, which Promestein accepted IIRC.

Then I guess that's fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, I suppose if 2-C/infinite speed discussions are being temporarily put on hold, then I guess that means all we need is that Kaguya calc.

I would ask in the calc request thread but I've already posted there twice in one week and I don't wanna feel like I'm spamming there.

 

[Antvasima]

Please elaborate. If you properly explain the feat that you need calculated, maybe somebody here will be able to help you.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It has been generally agreed upon that Kaguya's ability to manipulate the instantaneous allows her to move in planck time, so we need to figure out how fast this is by comparing it to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed (3.336×10^-12 compared to 10^−44).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also should mention I got a draft of an infinite/immeasurable speed CRT ready to go so let me know when it'd be appropriate to post it (I have 3 Touhou CRTs that I'm waiting to post after this thread closes for the love of god please help me).

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

We still need your help to reach a conclusion here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

If you write a proper explanation regarding everything that we need to decide here, I can ask other staff members for help, in case Promestein is not interested anymore.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We just need a calc for how fast moving in planck time is compared to baseline MFTL+ reaction speed. Aside from that, everything that has not already been fully discussed has been moved to new threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, if you describe all information for the feat here, I can ask a few calc group member to help us out then.

However, have the current "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" statistics been accepted by Promestein?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kaguya's ability is described as allowing her to move within an instant.

Instants are described as being shorter than planck time in Dr. Latency's Freak Report. This is unfortunately all the context we have to go off of.

I do not know if Promestein is fine with the verse staying at universal; however, she has previously stated that she will not discuss Doremy's dream creation feats or Sagume's occult ball creation, and I don't think she has commented on the validity of Kaguya's corridor creation after new evidence was brought up in favor of the feat, so I am not sure how invested she is in the topic or if she even wishes to make a decision regarding it.

 

[Antvasima]

Kaguya's ability is described as allowing her to move within an instant.

Instants are described as being shorter than planck time in Dr. Latency's Freak Report. This is unfortunately all the context we have to go off of.

I do not know if Promestein is fine with the verse staying at universal; however, she has previously stated that she will not discuss Doremy's dream creation feats or Sagume's occult ball creation, and I don't think she has commented on the validity of Kaguya's corridor creation after new evidence was brought up in favor of the feat, so I am not sure how invested she is in the topic or if she even wishes to make a decision regarding it.

Okay.

@Damage3245 @Mr._Bambu @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Psychomaster35

Would any of you be willing to calculate this please?

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn't seem possible to calc from just that. How far is the character travelling or moving?