Some Ups and Downs for Touhou Project

[OnsokunoSonic]

Good Morning/Afternoon/Night, guys.

First of all, I want to thank the people that is included on the page, because I used some of their argument in the page, and that people will be @Saikou_The_Lewd_King, @Hecatia_Gaming, and @Shmooply I hope you don't hold any grudge against me.

So many have you may (or not) have noticed that the Touhou Project's Explanation Page by Saikou is very old, like super old, it's at least 4 years old or something.
So I thought to myself why not create a page, a new one for Touhou Project (and link it to the main page), that's revolved around the ratings of the characters, talking about why and how a certain character gain their ability or their rating. And that's exactly what I did.

Keine's Touhou School

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes it doesn't explain every single character, because there are a lot of them, I mean it's possible but it will take a lot of time. So I focused it around important characters on the series first, such as Reimu and Yukari, then slowly add more characters to the blog.

Now there are some upgrade here and there on the blog, so please read it carefully, specially the Youkai section and the Mechanism of Fortune section. I also included TL;DR for almost every section so that it will be easier for you guys to read. And yes, the blog will be updated as more info is discovered on the series.

Take your time to check the page and please put your input. Thanks in advance.

Now it's time for some "Downgrades"

Downgrade

So, I noticed something quite intriguing on some of the profiles.

possibly Regeneration (High-Godly, can create a physical vessel from her primordial state)

This, is something that I do not quite agree with, yes I missed this part on the CRT, I was super busy and can't read carefully. So this, is in my opinion isn't HGR at all, this is Immortality Type 9, the Primordial Form is the true form that created the Physical Form, there's pretty much no High Godly Regeneration here at all, and using Myth to regenerate is totally isn't Type 3 Immortality nor High Godly Regeneration, High Godly Regeneration isn't something to be taken light of.

Physics Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Magic, Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation & Probability Manipulation (Gods created the three layers that compose the world, of which the first is capable of manipulating the physical world and it's laws, the second being capable of manipulating abstract concepts such as sorcery, the spirit, mind and emotions, and the third being capable of manipulating history, causality, and the memory of the world[3])

I noticed this is placed on the Physical World Key, Which is something that they don't have, to my knowledge. The one that's responsible for the creation of the three layered worlds are the Primordials, not the Physical Forms, so remove these ability to the Primordial Forms

Matter Manipulation

This can be removed, since creating the Physical World is more to Spatial Manipulation rather than Matter Manipulation.

The Primordials AP rating should be changed from a L2-C to H3-A possibly L2-C, yes they created the world, and space=time in Touhou, but even if that's the case, characters that have performed that feats is still rated H3-A possibly L2-C, such as Miko who created the infinite sized Senkai, she's still rated H3-A possibly L2-C for consistency, and that's exactly why the Primordials AP should be changed, for consistency.

TL;DR

• Immortality Type 3 and High Godly Regeneration is going away
• Move Physics Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Magic, Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation & Probability Manipulation to their Primordial Keys
• Remove Matter Manipulation
• Change the Primordials AP from L2-C to H3-A possibly L2-C

Thanks.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bumpy

 

[Pixy]

Agree on this one

 

[Pixy]

Well you're intersest to revisit Yukari ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agree.

Should probably be updated to include stuff from my recent CRT, specifically youkai/Yuyuko/Youmu resistance to illusions, Marisa water/cloth manipulation, and Tenshi/Sword of Hisou empathic manipulation. Overall very well put together though.

also glad to hear you know who the objective best 2hu girl is

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, I initially read this right after waking up, and now that I'm no longer half asleep and had a chance to reread, I have a few issues and disagreements here.

-Why do hermits scale above Youmu? AFAIK the only direct comparison between the two is Futo and Miko mistaking her for a hermit, which would imply Youmu is roughly equal to hermits, not below them.

-Are beast youkai losing low godly? Because my interpretation is that regeneration is just harder for them, not impossible. On top of that, I don't think they should be excluded from having physics/gravity manipulation on the basis of being 'weaker', especially considering Mamizou, Ran, and Hakutaku Keine are all beast youkai and are certainly stronger than fodder like Rumia and Wriggle. IMO, the differences between beast youkai and other youkai are based on their physicality (having greater physical strength and endurance on average, but more difficulty regenerating) and little else. Finally, the line between youkai and beast youkai is kinda vague, you'd need to be more specific about who these things apply to.

-The calc you used for FTL fairies is outdated as hell, as explained in this thread. That said, fairies are still at the low end of FTL since Sunny's light deflection feat is around that level (if you assume the attack was halfway to Sunny when she started to react), and Cirno upscales from fighting all 3 fairies of light at once. And even then, they have possible MFTL+ scaling. Also wall level fairies is downplay but I'll save that for my own CRT.

That's about it, I still agree with the CRT overall but I thought I should bring this up.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Agree.

Should probably be updated to include stuff from my recent CRT, specifically youkai/Yuyuko/Youmu resistance to illusions, Marisa water/cloth manipulation, and Tenshi/Sword of Hisou empathic manipulation. Overall very well put together though.

also glad to hear you know who the objective best 2hu girl is

Yeah, I'm planning to include that when the blog got accepted.

-Why do hermits scale above Youmu? AFAIK the only direct comparison between the two is Futo and Miko mistaking her for a hermit, which would imply Youmu is roughly equal to hermits, not below them.

Because hermits are superhuman, while Youmu isn't treated as one on the series, he's a just "special human" because he's half phantom that doesn't have anything to do with his AP.

-Are beast youkai losing low godly? Because my interpretation is that regeneration is just harder for them, not impossible. On top of that, I don't think they should be excluded from having physics/gravity manipulation on the basis of being 'weaker', especially considering Mamizou, Ran, and Hakutaku Keine are all beast youkai and are certainly stronger than fodder like Rumia and Wriggle. IMO, the differences between beast youkai and other youkai are based on their physicality (having greater physical strength and endurance on average, but more difficulty regenerating) and little else. Finally, the line between youkai and beast youkai is kinda vague, you'd need to be more specific about who these things apply to.

They're not losing it, they're just treated quite different on the verse. Assuming all Youkai have it is quite silly when it's stated that "Most Youkai" there has to be an exception, and that exception will probably the Beast Youkai, even if they're stronger, that doesn't mean they have the same hax as them.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Well you're intersest to revisit Yukari ?

There's a lot to her ability, so yeah I'll probably revisit her soon

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree with op.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Because hermits are superhuman, while Youmu isn't treated as one on the series, he's a just "special human" because he's half phantom that doesn't have anything to do with his AP.

Makes sense.

They're not losing it, they're just treated quite different on the verse. Assuming all Youkai have it is quite silly when it's stated that "Most Youkai" there has to be an exception, and that exception will probably the Beast Youkai, even if they're stronger, that doesn't mean they have the same hax as them.

Alright, good to know. I'm still not sure what you're using to determine who is or isn't a beast youkai though.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well, I have some things to say about this.

This, is something that I do not quite agree with, yes I missed this part on the CRT, I was super busy and can't read carefully. So this, is in my opinion isn't HGR at all, this is Immortality Type 9, the Primordial Form is the true form that created the Physical Form, there's pretty much no High Godly Regeneration here at all, and using Myth to regenerate is totally isn't Type 3 Immortality nor High Godly Regeneration, High Godly Regeneration isn't something to be taken light of.

Why this wouldn't be regeneration too? They are creating a physical body from a state of total nonexistence, which is the same as regenerating your physical self after being totally erased from existence. This is also the same reason why other characters has this level (well, not really the same level but something quite similar) of regeneration (example), so I didn't find any issue to at least leave it as a possibility instead of a direct ability.

I noticed this is placed on the Physical World Key, Which is something that they don't have, to my knowledge. The one that's responsible for the creation of the three layered worlds are the Primordials, not the Physical Forms, so remove these ability to the Primordial Forms

Fair enough. I didn't really knew were to put it, but being in the primordial key seems fine.

This can be removed, since creating the Physical World is more to Spatial Manipulation rather than Matter Manipulation.

Can you detail on this?

The Primordials AP rating should be changed from a L2-C to H3-A possibly L2-C, yes they created the world, and space=time in Touhou, but even if that's the case, characters that have performed that feats is still rated H3-A possibly L2-C, such as Miko who created the infinite sized Senkai, she's still rated H3-A possibly L2-C for consistency, and that's exactly why the Primordials AP should be changed, for consistency.

I don't see why it would be inconsistent if the primordial key doesn't really scale from anyone yet. And also, creating the very reality to a conceptual level should be by default something tier 2 rather than tier 3. Not only that, but also, those High 3A feats are really Low 2C due to many statements and explanation in-verse.
So I'll also counter this part of the downgrade with an upgrade. The characters should lose their High 3A rating, as the feats showed are more accurate with being Low 2C instead of tier 3 (Miko creating her own separate space-time, Kaguya manipulation fragments of space-time to create an infinite corridor, Doremy recreating realities in Dream World, etc). They don't see to just affect matter, but also space-time with their abilities, extra points since manipulating time is equivalent to manipulating space.
So yeah, the tier 3 should be nuked from the profiles and just being leaved as directly tier 2.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Why this wouldn't be regeneration too? They are creating a physical body from a state of total nonexistence, which is the same as regenerating your physical self after being totally erased from existence. This is also the same reason why other characters has this level (well, not really the same level but something quite similar) of regeneration (example), so I didn't find any issue to at least leave it as a possibility instead of a direct ability.

Does he have Immortality Type 9? He doesn't have anything or anyone helping him getting that level of regeneration not like our deities that has a true form helping them regenerate, literally avatar creation.

Can you detail on this?

I do believe Matter Manipulation can go away because it's more to spatial manipulation or creation.

I don't see why it would be inconsistent if the primordial key doesn't really scale from anyone yet. And also, creating the very reality to a conceptual level should be by default something tier 2 rather than tier 3. Not only that, but also, those High 3A feats are really Low 2C due to many statements and explanation in-verse.
So I'll also counter this part of the downgrade with an upgrade. The characters should lose their High 3A rating, as the feats showed are more accurate with being Low 2C instead of tier 3 (Miko creating her own separate space-time, Kaguya manipulation fragments of space-time to create an infinite corridor, Doremy recreating realities in Dream World, etc). They don't see to just affect matter, but also space-time with their abilities, extra points since manipulating time is equivalent to manipulating space.
So yeah, the tier 3 should be nuked from the profiles and just being leaved as directly tier 2.

We don't really lose anything by adding a H3-A possibly L2-C key, we can gain more from it, in my opinion at least. and it's more consistent on how we rate the verse too, trust me on this one.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I agree with Hecatia on upgrading the verse as a whole to L2-C, doesn't seem like there's any justification for just having it be a 'possibly' rating.

As for regeneration, regenerating from existence erasure only gets you mid-godly. High-godly has some very specific requirements attached to it that I don't think gods fulfill.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I agree with Hecatia on upgrading the verse as a whole to L2-C

We can gain more on H3-A, and it's not like we lose anything by doing that, we still have L2-C on the profile.

Btw do you agree in linking the page to the verse's profile?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What exactly do we gain from keeping the H3-A rating? It's inconsistent with the feats used as justification for it, so it should go.

Also if you're talking about the blog post you linked, then yes, I think it should go on the verse page. Makes it a lot more accessible.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Does he have Immortality Type 9? He doesn't have anything or anyone helping him getting that level of regeneration not like our deities that has a true form helping them regenerate, literally avatar creation.

No, but his case is quite similar in the sense that they both has regeneration due to creating a physical avatar, that was what I was pointing out.

I do believe Matter Manipulation can go away because it's more to spatial manipulation or creation.

Yeah, but why? I still don't see the spatial stuff on it.

We don't really lose anything by adding a H3-A possibly L2-C key, we can gain more from it, in my opinion at least. and it's more consistent on how we rate the verse too, trust me on this one.

Honestly, idk, because the tier 2 is more consistent than the tier 3 in Touhou, as I said before.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

What exactly do we gain from keeping the H3-A rating?

Being top 5 non smurfs H3-A perhaps? We got more keys to use, and it's harder if someone tried to debunk the verse.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

No, but his case is quite similar in the sense that they both has regeneration due to creating a physical avatar, that was what I was pointing out.

No, it's two different things.

Yeah, but why? I still don't see the spatial stuff on it.

Because they're creating space?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Being top 5 non smurfs H3-A perhaps? We got more keys to use, and it's harder if someone tried to debunk the verse.

Fair, but I'd prefer the profiles be as accurate as possible rather than cater to what other people think of the verse. I'm not a fan of the idea of deliberately downplaying the verse just to make sure nobody donwplays it further.

 

[Pixy]

I'm natural on this downgrade now Wait for other's accurate Info

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'm not a fan of the idea of deliberately downplaying the verse just to make sure nobody donwplays it further.

It's not downplaying (in my opinion at least), we still have the key on the profile that's still useable.

 

[Deadguy]

It seems valid but I have one problem unless I'm missing some context about the physical world I don't see how it's spatial manipulation as it more fall into creation but other than that it seems okay

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not downplaying (in my opinion at least), we still have the key on the profile that's still useable.

It is downplay, nearly every notable feat in the series is pretty clearly L2-C, the only possible exception being Suika destroying Heaven. The term 'possibly' implies that these feats are either vague or non-definitive, which clearly isn't the case.

And while I agree with you that having separate keys is good, if those keys are inaccurate to a character's actual tier, then they shouldn't exist. I'm probably biased since I don't care all that much about stuff that isn't trying to make verses as accurate as possible, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Because they're creating space?

The statement talks more about the laws of physics instead of space, which includes things such as matter and gravity. I don't see how spatial manip fits somehow with this.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andykhang @Jiangshi1 @Theglassman12 @Megamangohan @Junkoposter @Not_Icarus @Sans2345 @CrimsonStarFallen @OnsokunoSonic @Guardian_Doge @FujiwaraYesMokou @Ryukama @The_real_cal_howard @Mariogoods @GokuBlacksolosyourverse @LuckyEmile @Ciruno_Fortes @Udlmaster

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, would the new explanation page be a regular wiki page or a blog post? I think that the first option seems most convenient.

 

[deonment]

Why this wouldn't be regeneration too? They are creating a physical body from a state of total nonexistence, which is the same as regenerating your physical self after being totally erased from existence. This is also the same reason why other characters has this level (well, not really the same level but something quite similar) of regeneration (example), so I didn't find any issue to at least leave it as a possibility instead of a direct ability.

This is more res than anything, recreating a physical avatar after their erasure is res if it is done by a being that exists independent from said body, in bill's case it is not as the body is reformed from his mind, same with someone like Bass.EXE, here however the primordial forms exist independent from their avatars and as such when they get brought back it is treated as res, which is the same as it is for any avatar that gets brought back by their true form, it also does act as type 9 immo

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

The statement talks more about the laws of physics instead of space, which includes things such as matter and gravity. I don't see how spatial manip fits somehow with this.

The statement doesn't include matter, gravity is stated tho.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Also, would the new explanation page be a regular wiki page or a blog post? I think that the first option seems most convenient.

Can a regular wiki page be updated?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Easier stuff first.

I do believe Matter Manipulation can go away because it's more to spatial manipulation or creation.

I can agree with onsokuno on this, it's not needed, since it falls under creation as a sub-ability, therefore if it is definitively needed for example a Q&A thread or a vs thread, it can just be argued. Plus she already has Physics Manipulation on her profile which has matter manipulation as a sub-ability too.

I noticed this is placed on the Physical World Key, Which is something that they don't have, to my knowledge. The one that's responsible for the creation of the three layered worlds are the Primordials, not the Physical Forms, so remove these ability to the Primordial Forms

I agree with moving these to their primordial forms.

The Primordials AP rating should be changed from a L2-C to H3-A possibly L2-C, yes they created the world, and space=time in Touhou, but even if that's the case, characters that have performed that feats is still rated H3-A possibly L2-C, such as Miko who created the infinite sized Senkai, she's still rated H3-A possibly L2-C for consistency, and that's exactly why the Primordials AP should be changed, for consistency.

I guess this is fine too, never know when someone will just make a downgrade CRT for touhou and remove the entire rating because muh inconsistent.

Onto the more specific stuff..

They're not losing it, they're just treated quite different on the verse. Assuming all Youkai have it is quite silly when it's stated that "Most Youkai" there has to be an exception, and that exception will probably the Beast Youkai, even if they're stronger, that doesn't mean they have the same hax as them.

I'd actually disagree with removing physics manipulation and gravity manipulation for them, keine's ability directly affects the human mind and fundamental information, Tewi as well has an ability that affects the other layers, (in PMiSS, it's also stated some beast youkai learn sorcery https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Beast_Youkai)
To elaborate further, the excerpt in Mechanism of Fortune, can also be translated as "Generally youkai capture/control the world through the mental and physical layers." so it seems rather redundant to remove it from them entirely.

Removing High godly, and type 3 from the Gods

I should've covered this in the discord, type 3 should be removed, unless we're treating them like youkai, in this excerpt from PMiSS:

・妖怪は、人間より肉体が頑丈であり、五体がバラバラになる様な事があっても、すぐに治癒する		*Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into five parts, they heal right away.

I don't believe that HGR should be removed, it should be reworded as a note though saying it's, I propose:

"Gods have High Godly Regeneration due to their primordial forms being their true form, while this may sound like purely like type 8 immortality it should be noted that if a god's avatar were to be erased conceptually, their original form can still create the said avatar due to being completely conceptless, henceforth conceptual destruction would not negate a god, which qualifies as High Godly."

But it'd be okay if it is removed. Depends if I change my mood later. While we're on topic should we give Gods and Youkai Mid godly based on this scan, for being able to regenerate as long as the concept that forms them exists?

That's mainly it.

Overall, the blog is fine, keep it as one for future feats presented and log it.
-Keeping primordial forms as High 3A/ low 2-C is fine.
-Remove type 3 immortality for gods too unless there is evidence for their physiology being treated similarly to a youkai.
-Removing Matter manipulation for gods is fine, it falls under creation.
-Don't care about high godly, but mid godly could be applicable via the scan.

 

[deonment]

The regen is not regen, it is Ressurection, type 4, 8 and 9s immortality as well, an avatar being recreated by their true self has several times been listed as res

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It seems valid but I have one problem unless I'm missing some context about the physical world I don't see how it's spatial manipulation as it more fall into creation but other than that it seems okay

Creation is also fine.

I'd actually disagree with removing physics manipulation and gravity manipulation for them, keine's ability directly affects the human mind and fundamental information, Tewi as well has an ability that affects the other layers, (in PMiSS, it's also stated some beast youkai learn sorcery

"Some" there's an exception for this, and the beast youkais that doesn't learn sorcery doesn't have it

To elaborate further, the excerpt in Mechanism of Fortune, can also be translated as "Generally youkai capture/control the world through the mental and physical layers." so it seems rather redundant to remove it from them entirely.

Alrighty

I don't believe that HGR should be removed, it should be reworded as a note though saying it's, I propose:

"Gods have High Godly Regeneration due to their primordial forms being their true form, while this may sound like purely like type 8 immortality it should be noted that if a god's avatar were to be erased conceptually, their original form can still create the said avatar due to being completely conceptless, henceforth conceptual destruction would not negate a god, which qualifies as High Godly."

No, they're creating avatars, they're not regenerating, it's different.

But it'd be okay if it is removed. Depends if I change my mood later. While we're on topic should we give Gods and Youkai Mid godly based on this scan, for being able to regenerate as long as the concept that forms them exists?

No, I think the panel is trying to be deep, the panel is trying to say that we live with a goal in mind, there's a reason why we keep going, and losing that reason is basically the same as "death".

Even if we take that literally, then it's AE2 rather than MGR (In my opinion at least).

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Wait, Beast Youkai having LGR while not having universal range sounds silly af. It's probably Rinnosuke that doesn't have that range lmao. I guess beast Youkai does have Gravity and Physics Manipulation with uni range.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

No, I think the panel is trying to be deep, the panel is trying to say that we live with a goal in mind, there's a reason why we keep going, and losing that reason is basically the same as "death".

Even if we take that literally, then it's AE2 rather than MGR (In my opinion at least).

That’s an interesting interpretation. The reason I suggest it is because Fairy’s or Yuuka for example, are somewhat conceptual in nature. Unless (let’s use cirno as a basis) the concept of ice and cold is erased, she’ll always regenerate regardless of the damage done to her.

For the yuuka one, her cause/phenomenon (the same thing we give them low godly for due to mind being their core stuff) is making flowers bloom across all 4 seasons, being indicated to be the very existence of the 4 seasons (which are established concepts/boundaries), hence she’d only disappear if those concepts also were rendered nonexistent.

The proposition here, is that a youkai‘s mind, isn’t entirely just a disembodied conscious, but also an abstraction that is directly connected to the concept it represents, henceforth allowing them to regenerate or exist so long as said conception is identified.
I’ll be sleeping now, goodnight.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

For the yuuka one, her cause/phenomenon (the same thing we give them low godly for due to mind being their core stuff) is making flowers bloom across all 4 seasons, being indicated to be the very existence of the 4 seasons (which are established concepts/boundaries), hence she’d only disappear if those concepts also were rendered nonexistent.

The proposition here, is that a youkai‘s mind, isn’t entirely just a disembodied conscious, but also an abstraction that is directly connected to the concept it represents, henceforth allowing them to regenerate or exist so long as said conception is identified.
I’ll be sleeping now, goodnight.

That's interesting, but I think this is more fitting for another CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Can a regular wiki page be updated?

Yes, anybody can update it afterwards when necessary, if we unlock it due to a revision for example. That is what makes it more convenient.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, have you reached any agreements already?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm pretty sure we still need to come to a conclusion on whether or not gods are keeping high-godly regen, from what I can tell everything else has been agreed to.

There's still the issue of a L2-C upgrade and an upgrade for youkai regen, but it seems like those should be saved for their own CRTs. Not sure if everyone else here agrees though.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well should be preferable to reserve anything about Youkai for another thread, because there are a lot of things that needs to be added to their profiles than just a regen upgrade.

 

[Shmooply]

i just hope we dont need to make a physiology page for them...