Touhou Type 2 Conceptual Manip

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So we currently treat "names" in Touhou as being Type 3 concepts. However, we know:

In the beginning, nothing in this world had a name. It was a world in which all things were mixed together in chaos. However, the gods in those ancient times gave a name to every last thing, and so the orderly world we see today was born. When naming something, a new border is created that makes it recognizable as one thing. You could say that the power to name is the creation to produce the object from nothingness, clearly the same power as a god's. And because of the strength of this power, the things themselves remember their names. And that's why I can see those names in them.

From Curiosites in Lotus Asia, Chapter 15.

Essentially, this means that "Names" forged the world as we know and thus that they predate the physical objects they represent. It explicitly creates them from nothing. As we define Type 2 concepts as existing independently from reality, I'd say that this is grounds enough to make Touhou's conceptual manip Type 2.

 

[Promestein]

Not exactly opposed to it, but I'd like to see what other people think about it.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This looks fine from what i can tell.

 

[LuckyEmile]

I'd help out but I don't really understand... >_< I don't quite see how Names would be independent from reality though...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because they precede reality, having formed it to begin with. As such they shouldn't be affected by what happens or what doesn't happen in reality. They define reality, but reality doesn't neccessarily define them.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Oh, in that case it should be fine, I suppose.

 

[Antvasima]

You should preferably ask some other staff members to give input here.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Isn't this just the gods creating concepts?

"When naming something, a new border is created"

This doesn't seem to me they precede reality but the gods did. Then they came and created the concepts.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sure, but the concepts is what shaped reality. They still came before reality.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bump

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bumpkick

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I agree with the revisions

 

[Elizhaa]

The proposal seems fine.

 

[Junkoposter]

seems jolly good to me

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Doesn't really seem like the Names preceded reality here. From what I can tell, the universe was just formed once the Gods allowed things to be distinguishable from one another, they are still particular and defined in relation to individual objects, especially since reality was formed at the same time as them, not after they were created.

 

[Tyri456]

This could be easily type 2 if it was just a little bit more explicit.

For me it's good, since "Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts" but the first line could be debatle, even if "gods" were before concepts of reality themself.


But I can understand the doubts regarding this, so probably depends on interpretations.

 

[Elizhaa]

Wait, from Ultima's points, I do remember in Tensei case; the god created everything including concepts; those concepts were not accepted as Type 2 as they look to being relation spirits/objects. Arceus's concepts case is also close to this one. So, predating something doesn't means one's conceptual manipulation is Type 2.

I am neutral now; I got to say the case looks to be Type 3 though.

 

[Tyri456]

yeah probably is type 3.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Ultima

Yeah, but giving names is what made things in the universe distinguishable from each other. Giving names to thing is what created this divide in the first place.

And while yes reality and the concepts technically did appear at the same time, the causality of the thing was still concept -> reality. The concepts are the cause for reality's existence, not the opposite.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Sounds about alright to my eyes

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bump

mostly for Ultima

so he can answer

 

[Bummel]

Looks fine to me

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Saikou

Yeah, that seems fine then.

 

[Overlord775]

This is basically the same as the CT's tho and they were refused to have type 2 concept manipulation

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yeah I still don't see how they're type 2. Predating reality is not necessarily transcending it because from my understanding false platonic concepts are supposed to be "platonic" concepts in relations to a plane. Even then it seems as soon as everything was named reality was created straight after so they aren't like some primordial transcendant concepts in relation to reality. Unless Pokemons case is accepted I will disagree with this one since they're basically synonymous.

 

[Thestrikingzebra]

Seems good enough for me

 

[Bummel]

Bump

 

[Elizhaa]

I think the additions would be fine now. It would be also Type 1 now, given recent updates type to the conceptual manipulation page.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I agree with Elizhaa

 

[Thestrikingzebra]

So what would this mean?

 

[Dereck03]

I agree and yes, as stated before, it would now be type 1 instead of type 2.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Hooray! Here to reconfirm my agreement.

 

[DarlingAurora]

I agree.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Antvasima @Promestein what do you think, now?

 

[Shmooply]

I agree as well.
man i forgot to put myself as a supporter i need to fix that

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I'm in agreement with this, tbh. Let's do it.

 

[Tarang123]

Wouldn't this be type 1 concepts as they are completely independent from reality? Just a question, tho...

 

[Shmooply]

Wouldn't this be type 1 concepts as they are completely independent from reality? Just a question, tho...

Yes, read the thread.

 

[Tarang123]

Yes, read the thread.

oh, nvm I'm blind

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima @Promestein what do you think, now?

This is probably fine, but it would be good if somebody explains the justifications here and the requirements for type 1 conceptual manipulation.