Touhou Project Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade

[Reiner04]

Well no, names change the true nature of gods, which is an idea spread across reality.

By changing its name, a god changes its nature, which is evidence that a god’s name is only one aspect of their selves.

Gods are ideas in the sense they pass through us forever and began to know or get changed to known with many names, and god changes his nature by changing his name, the names are only one aspects of their true self. Names yet standing for only one god Who changes his nature and known with many names. But tbh, I don't know how it's relevant...

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is no evidence of independence in any scan, Fuji.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is no evidence of independence in any scan, Fuji.

Predating reality means you are independent from that reality. Even if that reality was wholly erased, a being that predates reality would be fine because they never relied on that reality to begin with. It's quite simple.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is no scan with "predating", Fuji.

 

[ÆONS]

Disagree with the OP for reasons Mokou brought up.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

-The fossil example isn't why names are type 1. Names are type 1 because they govern ideas spread across reality, are unbound from that reality, and govern other type 1 concepts.

i'm using the fossil in relation to spellcard naming not about names governing ideas or reality
because if it is concept creation. it wouldn't be type 1 concept creation because they are not making type 1 concept
they are using a type 1 concept power to make lesser concept such as. Freeze Sign : Ultimate Flash Freeze (proceeds to smack you with bajillion of shards of ice).

-Naming being the power of the gods doesn't mean other people can't use it. In fact, it has been directly stated that even regular people can give things names, even to the gods themselves. Naming is a universal power, although only the gods can use it on such a massive scale.

exactly the reason why non God's naming things shouldn't be classified as Type 1 cocnept because they aren't really affecting the concept the Gods already gave name to.

-Spell card naming is type 1 because names are type 1 concepts. The fact that spell card users can only use it on a small scale is what makes it limited, even if the nature of the concept doesn't change.

If an ability like making fire function under a Type 1 concept because the type 1 concept governs it and abides by its law
that doesn't make my fire making ability a type 1 concept.
That's like saying Sources in maou gakuin should be Type 1 because it uses or comes from the Firedew which is type 1 concept (not intentional but that's the only example i can think of atm)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

i'm using the fossil in relation to spellcard naming not about names governing ideas or reality
because if it is concept creation. it wouldn't be type 1 concept creation because they are not making type 1 concept
they are using a type 1 concept power to make lesser concept such as. Freeze Sign : Ultimate Flash Freeze (proceeds to smack you with bajillion of shards of ice).

Again, none of those examples are why names are type 1. You're taking the end result (all names being type 1) and assuming that's my evidence, when it's not (the real reason is that names created all of reality, including other type 1 concepts, and predate that reality as a result).

exactly the reason why non God's naming things shouldn't be classified as Type 1 cocnept because they aren't really affecting the concept the Gods already gave name to.

It's the exact same power though. If gods have type 1, then so do the non-gods who also use names. Keep in mind non-gods are stated to be able to give names to gods, which affects ideas spread across reality, so this isn't even right.

If an ability like making fire function under a Type 1 concept because the type 1 concept governs it and abides by its law
that doesn't make my fire making ability a type 1 concept.
That's like saying Sources in maou gakuin should be Type 1 because it uses or comes from the Firedew which is type 1 concept (not intentional but that's the only example i can think of atm)

Except they're not just manipulating stuff that was created by those concepts. They're the ones making the concepts to begin with. You clearly do not even understand why Touhou's CM is a thing.

There is no scan with "predating", Fuji.

If you create reality, you logically have to come before it. You cannot create something retroactively, or at least we don't assume that by default.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you create reality, you logically have to come before it. You cannot create something retroactively, or at least we don't assume that by default.

??? There is no evidence for this theory.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

??? There is no evidence for this theory.

Hey Dread, can you make a thread yesterday today? If you think that's impossible, please come back and see if my prior statement makes more sense.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Hey Dread, can you make a thread yesterday today? If you think that's impossible, please come back and see if my prior statement makes more sense.

Here is the logical fallacy, we are talking about a god that constantly creates impossibilities, so to make a logical argument on someone whose nature is paradoxical is a weak argument.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Here is the logical fallacy, we are talking about a god that constantly creates impossibilities, so to make a logical argument on someone whose nature is paradoxical is a weak argument.

Okay? Just because gods can do something impossible IRL, that doesn't mean we assume they can do everything. That'd be an NLF. So is there any evidence that reality came before names despite names creating it?

 

[Shmooply]

If I didn't make it obvious enough, I disagree with the OP.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, to avoid endlessly repeating the same points, @KLOL506 and @Duedate8898 disagree with the OP, while @Qawsedf234 was waiting for a rebuttal and hasn't responded since (though as of his last post he mostly agreed with OP, with the exception of boundaries being type 2).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Okay? Just because gods can do something impossible IRL, that doesn't mean we assume they can do everything. That'd be an NLF. So is there any evidence that reality came before names despite names creating it?

You did not really refute anything. There is not a single evidence for “predating”, let alone being independent. This is literally head canon and just based with no scans.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You did not really refute anything. There is not a single evidence for “predating”, let alone being independent. This is literally head canon and just based with no scans.

Cause and effect is a headcanon now? Oof, looks like causality manipulation will have to go, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Anyways, to avoid endlessly repeating the same points, @KLOL506 and @Duedate8898 disagree with the OP, while @Qawsedf234 was waiting for a rebuttal and hasn't responded since (though as of his last post he mostly agreed with OP, with the exception of boundaries being type 2).

And you forget Plank being neutral? It is 1:2 (1 disagree two neutral)

 

[KLOL506]

-The justifications are bad and shouldn't be used as the basis for this downgrade. Refer to my original debunk post instead.
-Spell card naming is type 1 because names are type 1 concepts. The fact that spell card users can only use it on a small scale is what makes it limited, even if the nature of the concept doesn't change.
-Naming being the power of the gods doesn't mean other people can't use it. In fact, it has been directly stated that even regular people can give things names, even to the gods themselves. Naming is a universal power, although only the gods can use it on such a massive scale.
-The fossil example isn't why names are type 1. Names are type 1 because they govern ideas spread across reality, are unbound from that reality, and govern other type 1 concepts.

Off-topic question: You guys planning more justification replacements and getting rid of outdated stuff?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Cause and effect is a headcanon now? Oof, looks like causality manipulation will have to go, it was fun while it lasted.

Irrelevant, I could use the same argument for MG source without giving any scans. Stop with headcanons and show the evidence of “predating reality” that you came with.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Off-topic question: You guys planning more justification replacements and getting rid of outdated stuff?

Yeah, we definitely are. We wanna reshape the whole verse, fix old justifications, get proper stats and evidence and such in

It’s just a time consuming process since there’s only a few ppl working on the verse like this (me, Fuji, a couple others) and we have pretty busy irl lives. Touhou threads taking ages to get any attention also slows down progress.

But yeah 100%. I’ve been doing some work in getting scans for character specific abilities that are unsourced, I’ve put some decent work in Marisa & Kasen specifically.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Irrelevant, I could use the same argument for MG source without giving any scans. Stop with headcanons and show the evidence of “predating reality” that you came with.

Hell, I am still interested from where “Independence” coming from. This is the whole argument for CM type 1, and there are no scans for that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And you forget Plank being neutral? It is 1:2 (1 disagree two neutral)

Wait, who's the second neutral person? Rn it's one agree (pending further response), two disagrees, and one neutral vote.

Off-topic question: You guys planning more justification replacements and getting rid of outdated stuff?

Yeah, Touhou's a big verse though so I'm holding off on doing any changes until I coming through everything. It'll probably be a while lol.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And you forget Plank being neutral? It is 1:2 (1 disagree two neutral)

And the grace is not even 48 hours and there is no conclusion, yet. So I am not sure why you are creating a conclusion right now.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Wait, who's the second neutral person? Rn it's one agree (pending further response), two disagrees, and one neutral vote.

Qawasd, Plank neutral, and only one disagreement. According to you, content moderators don't count

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Qawasd, Plank neutral, and only one disagreement. According to you, content moderators don't count

I never said that. Pretty sure that was Pein, and you can clearly see I included Dereck in the MG thread vote tally.

And the grace is not even 48 hours and there is no conclusion, yet. So I am not sure why you are creating a conclusion right now.

The grace period only applies to accepted threads IIRC.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't see any reasons for closing the thread, Fuji. There are many users yet need to see and respond to your counter-arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't see any reasons for closing the thread, Fuji. There are many users yet need to see and respond to your counter-arguments.

I... never said to close the thread? I just made a vote tally so people don't lose track. Here's a new one since I missed Planck last time:

Agree: @Qawsedf234 (awaiting further response, thinks boundaries are fine as type 2)

Disagree: @KLOL506, @Duedate8898

Neutral: @Planck69

 

[ImmortalDread]

Thanks for helping with the vote tally.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I

Yeah, calc members and content mods votes do not count, although their opinions is highly placed, but in the end results, it would be the admins and thread mods

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, calc members and content mods votes do not count, although their opinions is highly placed, but in the end results, it would be the admins and thread mods

Well Dread needs to make a decision then, because either this thread is mostly disagreed upon, or the MG thread is mostly agreed upon and can be applied (though I do personally count calc members and content mods).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Hey, Fuji, neither thread has a reliable ratio even if we consider the content moderators.
As I mentioned earlier, a ratio of 3:2 according to an available policy is insufficient.

 

[Dereck03]

Yeah, calc members and content mods votes do not count, although their opinions is highly placed, but in the end results, it would be the admins and thread mods

So let's imagine 2 Content mod and 1 calc mod agree but 1 thread mod disagree, so thread mod > ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hey, Fuji, neither thread has a reliable ratio even if we consider the content moderators.
As I mentioned earlier, a ratio of 3:2 based on a single policy is insufficient.

It'd be either 2:1 or 3:1. That is suitable enough for a revision to be applied. But this discussion is derailing this thread, so we can continue it over on the MG thread if you want.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It'd be either 2:1 or 3:1. That is suitable enough for a revision to be applied. But this discussion is derailing this thread, so we can continue it over on the MG thread if you want.

No, can we discuss it in your heart?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, can we discuss it in your heart?

Unfortunately I tore out my own heart a while ago.

Anyways, I'll be away for my computer for a bit so don't expect further discussion from me here. Let's at least try to keep things more organized in the meantime.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Damn, ok I did not want that bloody end...

 

[Reiner04]

KLOL vote should counts as in staff member, same with dereck vote the rules that has been made against it is nonsense on its own for several reasons.

Now the vote debate can end .

 

[PrinceofPein]

So let's imagine 2 Content mod and 1 calc mod agree but 1 thread mod disagree, so thread mod > ?

The world has never been fair. in the same way you can delete a page and approve or deny a page creation and calc members can approve a calc even if 20 thread mods disagree, that shit is crazy ngl. I think the point is that everyone has their own roles here

 

[Theglassman12]

Man this sure brings back memories.

I disagree with the OP, Fuji’s arguments explains pretty well how gods and their names would be type 1.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Based Glassman, as usual. After @Qawsedf234 gives their response, I think we can close this.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Based Glassman, as usual. After @Qawsedf234 gives their response, I think we can close this.

Hey Kagamine, absuse your ping privilege to make Qawsed come here