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To be fair, Touhou generally needs an overhaul about justifications, most of it is outdated-ish and still uses cropped scans from the THwiki for like 99% of the stuff lol.
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Touhou Project Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade
- Thread starter EldemadeDityjon
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I read pretty much all of this, and suffice to say, I agree with this wholeheartedly, and I disagree with OP.
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Can we not? There's no need to make stuff like this.Jeez, give me a break, I am loving the debate right now
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Anyway, while conceptual stuff does generally confuse me, I do get the gist of how it works in Touhou after having it refreshed in my mind and from knowing the series
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You came way way too late to moderate whether I am derailing or not. If you actually go from the first post, you would see which side is actually derailing.
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@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Would you be kind enough to respond to OP and Fuji's rebuttal? And Dread's response, as well as Fuji's response to Dread?
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1. Yukari mentioned near-death experience not that she is capable of actually causing death to her who is not longer bound by life and death due to its absence
2. Being absent of concept doesn't not mean they are Type 1 concept nor is affecting someone with concept hax when said someone lacks concept is Type 1. that is merely potency and feats of Concept being able to affect someone who completely lacks said concept within him. You can't both lack concept and still say she has Type 1 concept which would make ity oxymoronic.
with that said i really only see Type 2 at best in here for boundary. but that is not my main concern because my concern is we blanket thise type into lesser being giving name to their spell card
In a typical causal relationship
if reality doesn't exist there won't be a causal relationship for Causality as well cannot exist. with that knowledge reality may have already begun even without creation or existence. reality can exist even if it is merely just a mass of chaos without order or void
Names predate the existence of an orderly world but it did not predate the existence of reality when everything is mixed together into chaos.
"It was a world in which all things are mixed together in chaos"
Implies something existed regardless of whether it was under the boundary of existence or nonexistence.
What this also tells us is that it was names that gave border thus instead of a singular thing it was divided into distinct things. Such as Existence nonexistence, real and imaginary, and other dualities that exist in the franchise
EDIT since I don't wanna bloat the thread further: I'm going to sleep but this is my argument for the overall scan presented. Going further than this can go into a recursive back and forth. therefore if i did not respond to your counterargument that just means I agree to disagree and simply want the Staff to evaluate it themselves
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EldemadeDityjon
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I don't care. Both of you should can it and wait for the other people I tagged.
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F, I wanted to respond, you were faster. The amount I get quoting literally did not let me proper address them.
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And this is a counter-refute to Dread. Don't forget this either.
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KLOL, I respectfully would think you need to care, I mean, be fair. 1 whole page from them to derail the whole thread for some non-proved bs claim they made because of OP intentions irrelevance. This time you need actually to be fair even if you are opposed to the OP.
Like, you came out of nowhere and tell me to shut up while the full time they were derailing? Where is fairness?
Hell, I was the whole time telling them to stop and they never did.
EldemadeDityjon
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Which was already taken care of
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Let's not take it that far and let the staff decide this.
First thing I did was respond to Fuji's comment, then you made yours. And all I said to you was not to make comments like that, until you mentioned the derailing.
Either way, all of you should immediately stop, wait for Fuji to make further responses and let the staff I tagged make decisions.
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@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you mind?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Yes, yes, I'm getting to it. how tf did so many people post in like 5 minutes
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... I mean, the names for the cards are mere representing it's form of powers and it's characteristics are merely giving suffering or smth as far as I've read?
If it's not same as names since start of the creation and there are names for actual life and death, time and space then the point is still there to address.
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In fact, the scan does not imply what you claimed at all. The absence of something does not equate to being "independent" in any way.
There is no indication in the scan that supports your interpretation. Furthermore, you did not provide any evidence or scans to support your claim. All you presented were NEP 2 and TD type 1 or type 2, which do not contradict my statement.
That's not entirely accurate. The scan specifically refers to the actual "name" and not just the concept of it. It's important to note that not every scan uses "name" as a concept unless explicitly stated by the author. In this case, the reference is to nameless Gods and it would be incorrect to consider our names as concepts in this context.
PrinceofPein
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Is this correct,
Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?
And also destruction of the part the God govern does not affect the God?
If all these three are true, then Name can be type 1 concepts
Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?
And also destruction of the part the God govern does not affect the God?
If all these three are true, then Name can be type 1 concepts
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Sure, I wanted to point out the sufferness I had dealing with those comments that were clowning on the thread and derail a whole page.
This was my impression of having fun with her debating on this. Nothing hate here, I even added a heart, KLOL.
Ya, I will still debate with her.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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What the hell do you mean derailment? We’re agreeing with arguments against OP. If you wanna talk about derailing, look at the ******* dozens of unnecessary posts made after your OP clogging up the CRT.
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You said it twice with no new information, and to the same post she made.
Don't drag this further.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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That's... not even remotely what I was arguing. The point is that the alteration of life and death did not affect the boundary that governs them. It's not like Mokou was born as a type 5 immortal; She removed those concepts artificially, which again, did nothing to the boundary governing them.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You want to claim reality didn't exist, but are also saying reality did exist, just in a state of chaos. Make up your mind, please.
Anyways, this doesn't debunk what I said; We don't just assume things happen in reverse order just because causality is ******. We would need direct feats or statements of that being the case. So until you bring that evidence, we have no reason to assume the concepts came after what they created.
Except boundaries, which were created by names, were what created existence, nonexistence, void, form, emptiness, and well, everything. You can't say things existed when the concept of what "existence" is hadn't even been defined yet.
In case you need more evidence, nameless gods are directly stated to be "nothing", so namelessness is legitimately a state of nothingness and not just chaos. Not to mention the explanation of boundaries in PMiSS clearly says that without boundaries, nothing would exist, so it is definitely about existence itself.
The first two are definitely true, though I don't remember if the third bit has any examples. I can look for some though.
However, boundaries also govern ideas spread across the world, and are unaffected by the destruction of what they govern, and boundaries are governed by names. According to the CM page, this would make names type 1 as well (since type 2/3 concepts can't govern type 1).
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This is deleting a whole page, but this is a perfect solution!
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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...Kirb and Shiroiyo are two different people, Dread.You said it twice with no new information, and to the same post she made.
Don't drag this further.
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oh- Damn, my bad. (I somehow saw same profile pictures) I guess I am dumb.
EldemadeDityjon
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I am pretty sure I saw a scan where gods didn't had any names. Let me check.
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No, it's just a simple idea that God is a single entity and he can changes his aspects as the names gets assigned to him with time passes but the god who doesn't have any name assigned to him stays same as he was before the creation, scan explicitly says they changes their nature rather than they get changed themselves, and they're like ideas that passes through us forever.
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They did not have any names, they were nameless, I don't know why Fuji is equating “name” in that context as “concept”.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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There are two forms of the gods: Their avatars/divine spirits which are governed by names, and the primordial form of the gods, which were the ones who gave everything names. So gods sometimes do have names and they sometimes don't, but those that do are governed by them.
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Buggy forum doesn't send me notifications from this thread even after clicking the watch button, so I have to respond to it.
Literally everything you're all asking about regarding the gods and names stuff can be found from Chapter 15 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Which the 2hoe wiki has a page for.
Literally everything you're all asking about regarding the gods and names stuff can be found from Chapter 15 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Which the 2hoe wiki has a page for.
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Really? Because it works fine for me.
Thanks for source. I am interested on reading on it right now.
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So MG gets type 3 and 2hoe type 2?
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Why MG is being mentioned here? It is irrelevant.
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there is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoe IGNORE THE BODIES IN MY BACKYARD.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Yes, and no. As long as the votes hold up, anyways.
EldemadeDityjon
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