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Touhou Project Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade
- Thread starter EldemadeDityjon
- Start date
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- touhou project
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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The very bit you clipped says gods do have names ("When his name changed to Takemikazuchi, he changed from a god of sorcery (as implied by the ‘pot’ character) to a god of swordsmanship (implied by the ‘thunder’ character). By changing its name, a god changes its nature, which is evidence that a god’s name is only one aspect of their selves"). They just used to not have them. Hell, here's one excerpt about gods gaining names. You are completely misunderstanding the whole "nameless gods" bit.
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It doesn't really matter if they had names or not, Gods are superior to names is given but just acts accords, and I don't see it being relevant.
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I fail to see the relevance of the concept of “name” in this context. It appears to be more of an aspect of their nature, specifically when they change their name, which is akin to shapeshifting but on a fundamental level.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 17,000
- 12,684
- Thread starter
- #165
That's literally states same thing gods are nameless but when they gets named their ability gets restricted (i don't know which abilities they are talking about though) anyway it's clear cut gods didn't had name.
Anyway let's get back to only names topic then
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 17,000
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- Thread starter
- #166
I was telling to Pain actually my bad if I derailed it.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Yes, fundamental aspects of one's nature are concepts, Dread. On top of creating everything in reality.
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My reply was not to any particular person anyway but the entire god arguement, I don't see it being relevant...
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Pain is a lovely person, his questions need to be addressed at any costs. 
Ok I need to stop, ahm, back to the topic, ya I don't see why the scan should be relevant or even used.
Ok I need to stop, ahm, back to the topic, ya I don't see why the scan should be relevant or even used.
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There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
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No, not necessarily. “Nature” could here mean body, because it is perfectly talking about changing its form.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Well, the goal was to downgrade names/boundaries in general. The OP just used the profile justification alone as evidence.
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Ya, Fuji my best friend mentioned it for some reason.
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Dread it doesn't matter, it's just god changing his nature as per assigned name, from god of war to God of peace, it's still a single object, take it god or a human being. The point is what type of concept is these names are.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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literally since when has nature meant body
Not to mention, the characters used for "nature" in the original text (性質) can also be translated as characteristic, property, or essence, so it's definitely not about their bodies.
But as Reiner said, it doesn't matter much in the end.
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I don't see how it is even a concept of manipulation, Reiner.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
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So if Gods nature change with the names they are given, it means names are concepts.
Now what I do not understand or get from the scan is that, after he changed to a God with a nature of lightning did he start to govern all "lightning" in the verse, or it is just the God who started behaving like one?
The former can be prove of type 1, the latter is type 3.
And final part of my question.
Boundaries get their powers from their name?
Boundaries also spread across reality and give reality its attributes?
Destruction of an attribute of the universe has no effect on the boundary itself?
If all is yes, well that is type 1
Sorry I tend to ask direct questions, so the threads do not become circular, so anyone answering should be as direct as possible if possible, yes or no
Now what I do not understand or get from the scan is that, after he changed to a God with a nature of lightning did he start to govern all "lightning" in the verse, or it is just the God who started behaving like one?
The former can be prove of type 1, the latter is type 3.
And final part of my question.
Boundaries get their powers from their name?
Boundaries also spread across reality and give reality its attributes?
Destruction of an attribute of the universe has no effect on the boundary itself?
If all is yes, well that is type 1
Sorry I tend to ask direct questions, so the threads do not become circular, so anyone answering should be as direct as possible if possible, yes or no
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Just a concept of being, a named one. Only thing matters here is if there is a name and that the name here I am talking about are assigned names since creation exists for fundamental aspects of reality.
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Well latter but then again as I said, gods are superior to names so it doesn't matter what names they have.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 17,000
- 12,684
- Thread starter
- #182
Yes
Only space & time scan found and as Reina said it's vague nothing clearly mentioned.
There is no proof for this actually that's why I am saying this is not type 1.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Gods are literally the ideas they represent, spread across reality, so yes.
Yeah. Boundaries were created by names.
Yes, there are boundaries between things like life and death, existence and non-existence, time and space, and even higher and lower dimensions. Without boundaries, all things would collapse in on themselves.
Yes, when a character removes the individual concepts of life and death, they can still be bound to the boundary of life and death.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Wrong. There is a boundary of existence and nonexistence that is the "beginning of all things". That is clearly governing all of reality.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Yes, that's what we call type 2 nonexistent physiology. It is why nameless gods and characters like Junko have that ability.
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idk the following scans says the Animal died and his flesh returned to the earth and the fossil/bone grew on its own
if this things are qualified as NEP type 2....
it literally was explained and elaborated to have a material existence
idk about Gods since they are abstract and they would qualify for nep type 2
but a literal bone
not sure man
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This seems to be an explaination of some kind of phenomenon... Not really name and named thing stuff.., no mention of existence having a single name as whole but rather it's already stated that all of things in existence was assigned with the name, forming a barrier btw before creation and after creation by default as named things and nameless nothingness.
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Alright. To get it out of the way, I agree with Fuji. She explained it better than I could since this isn't exactly my area of expertise. (And I'm admittedly bad at finding scans).
Outside of that, can we stop taking potshots at each other? Jesus Christ, both sides are like the blacksheep in vs wiki. It's just being petty to be petty and Touhou related threads already struggle to get staff to show up so acting toxic literally doesn't benefit either side.
Outside of that, can we stop taking potshots at each other? Jesus Christ, both sides are like the blacksheep in vs wiki. It's just being petty to be petty and Touhou related threads already struggle to get staff to show up so acting toxic literally doesn't benefit either side.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I never said it was about names, it's about boundaries (which were created by names). There is a border line [boundary] of existence and non-existence, does that make more sense?
It wasn't a bone before being named, it wasn't anything. It was in an undefined state until it was named, as were all nameless things. Also, nothing really implies it had a material form. Names determine history, so once it was named it would've been retroactively rendered a fossil, if that makes sense.
Also Rinnosuke's explanations on things not pertaining to names and gods or whatever are usually kinda sus so idk if the "bone grew on its own" statement should hold much weight (though the name stuff still should, since seeing names is literally his ability).
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 17,000
- 12,684
- Thread starter
- #191
Yeah not literally talking about existence and non existent as far as I seen in the page
Check this out it seems like they are trying to say Boundary Seperating things on the level of existence and non existent. It's just talking about how Boundary Seperation works not literal existence and non existent.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
Then that is what you should be arguing for, as that is enough to get you type 1 as long as there are no anti-feats
Gods names gives them their attributes which they spread over reality, Destruction of the attributes does not affect the gods or the names themselves.
you can just copy and paste that and input the scans accordingly, if it is true
that is vastly different from destruction of all the things known as "life and death" in reality. which is what you need to show that they are unaffected by
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"So basically, red and white symbolizes the distinction between existence and nothingness. ...and the borderline represents the beginning of all things" hmmmm yes very unclear in its meaning, what could zun have possibly meant by this, guess we'll never know
There's one more example I could check for the boundary stuff, but thanks for your evaluation regardless.
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If there is any mention of time and space, life and death, circle and other stuff itself having name (as it would stand for fundamental aspects) then I agree with type 2, idc much about type 1 tbh as I am not interested in that.
Mentioning barrier shouldn't be over used as direct representation of names as I've explained above how giving names to everything in existence would form a default barrier between it after and before creation (pls don't take it to anyone or anything as I am just leaving the things needed to be clarified, I won't be responding further but if I saw a scan implying towards anything that corresponds to reality as whole, I would reply)
Mentioning barrier shouldn't be over used as direct representation of names as I've explained above how giving names to everything in existence would form a default barrier between it after and before creation (pls don't take it to anyone or anything as I am just leaving the things needed to be clarified, I won't be responding further but if I saw a scan implying towards anything that corresponds to reality as whole, I would reply)
If it's just names of beings then that had fall under the concepts that aren't concept of type 2 to begin with, as it would require them being fundamental aspects of reality to control it all over. If I changed my name it wouldn't mean much.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Well no, names change the true nature of gods, which is an idea spread across reality. So it is changing something fundamental across reality, even if it's only targeting a single person (or a god, in this case).
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God changes their nature themselves as we assign the name, they're superior to names and god is one being, we know them across reality, time and space with many names as they appears but that is not affecting reality but a single being notion or the way they known across time and even that is just doing of god, not names.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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What?
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it has a material form. it was said to be not distinct from ordinary stone unless it is named to become a fossil or its name is known
if it is truly nonexistent they would have pointed that out and wouldn't equate it to an ordinary stone.
this reminds me of that argument about a regular stone being NEP type 2 and afaik dontalkTD said then it is just nothing and not even a stone at all.
Anyway the topic of this CRT isn't really about names and boundary but rather why does this level of Conceptual manipulation is blanketed even towards Spellcard naming that can be named by almost anybody and given meaning by them. they certainly do not have that kind of capacity to just name something to alter their concept. and why is the scans only showing about spellcard and not regarding naming and boundary. even then
these naming capability is the Power of God's although they can try to borrow it by naming nameless thing. it would just be haughtiness and whatever they will name will not even come to the scale to what These God's has done let alone make it into a spellcard that they use to fight.
As example shown in the bone. if the bone is named it will simply become a fossil. and yes it got named and it gain distinction and concept but that doesn't meet the criteria for it to be a type 2 concept let alone 1. at best it is type 3
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Ya, @TheGreatJedi13 is actually addressing my concerns perfectly.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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-The justifications are bad and shouldn't be used as the basis for this downgrade. Refer to my original debunk post instead.
-Spell card naming is type 1 because names are type 1 concepts. The fact that spell card users can only use it on a small scale is what makes it limited, even if the nature of the concept doesn't change.
-Naming being the power of the gods doesn't mean other people can't use it. In fact, it has been directly stated that even regular people can give things names, even to the gods themselves. Naming is a universal power, although only the gods can use it on such a massive scale.
-The fossil example isn't why names are type 1. Names are type 1 because they govern ideas spread across reality, are unbound from that reality, and govern other type 1 concepts.
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