Touhou Project Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade

[StrymULTRA]

To be fair, Touhou generally needs an overhaul about justifications, most of it is outdated-ish and still uses cropped scans from the THwiki for like 99% of the stuff lol.

 

[KLOL506]

-snip-

I read pretty much all of this, and suffice to say, I agree with this wholeheartedly, and I disagree with OP.

 

[KLOL506]

Jeez, give me a break, I am loving the debate right now

Can we not? There's no need to make stuff like this.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Fuji, did Elde break any rules with the thread? If yes, report him in RvR, if not, drop with this absurd derailment.

Even if he did or didn't break rules, and Mokou did or didn't feel it was reportable, why even bother discussing it now? People would just say Mokou reported mid-thread to silence opposition or something.

Anyway, while conceptual stuff does generally confuse me, I do get the gist of how it works in Touhou after having it refreshed in my mind and from knowing the series too much for my own good. I disagree with the downgrades FRA.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can we not? There's no need to make stuff like this.

You came way way too late to moderate whether I am derailing or not. If you actually go from the first post, you would see which side is actually derailing.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Would you be kind enough to respond to OP and Fuji's rebuttal? And Dread's response, as well as Fuji's response to Dread?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Okay, as promised, here's my response.

Boundaries

This is, obviously, type 2. However, boundaries are also shown to not be affected by the alteration of what they govern; For example, Fujiwara no Mokou is a character who has consumed the Hourai elixir and is therefore completely absent of the concepts of life and death. Despite this, boundary users like Yukari can still force her to cross the boundary of life and death, showing that while it is possible to be absent of life and death, the boundary between them is independent of those concepts and will not be affected by their removal.

1. Yukari mentioned near-death experience not that she is capable of actually causing death to her who is not longer bound by life and death due to its absence
2. Being absent of concept doesn't not mean they are Type 1 concept nor is affecting someone with concept hax when said someone lacks concept is Type 1. that is merely potency and feats of Concept being able to affect someone who completely lacks said concept within him. You can't both lack concept and still say she has Type 1 concept which would make ity oxymoronic.
with that said i really only see Type 2 at best in here for boundary. but that is not my main concern because my concern is we blanket thise type into lesser being giving name to their spell card

Another example is the boundary of red and white, which is literally existence and nonexistence (or black and white, which is void [imaginary number] and nonexistence [zero]. Since boundaries created these two concepts, they must thus predate reality and therefore be unbound from it (since, if they were bound to existence, then they would never be able to exist in order to create existence to begin with). In a typical causal relationship, the creator [boundaries] must always come before the creation [existence], it's quite simple.

In a typical causal relationship
if reality doesn't exist there won't be a causal relationship for Causality as well cannot exist. with that knowledge reality may have already begun even without creation or existence. reality can exist even if it is merely just a mass of chaos without order or void

names created reality and thus predate it

Names predate the existence of an orderly world but it did not predate the existence of reality when everything is mixed together into chaos.
"It was a world in which all things are mixed together in chaos"
Implies something existed regardless of whether it was under the boundary of existence or nonexistence.
What this also tells us is that it was names that gave border thus instead of a singular thing it was divided into distinct things. Such as Existence nonexistence, real and imaginary, and other dualities that exist in the franchise

---

EDIT since I don't wanna bloat the thread further: I'm going to sleep but this is my argument for the overall scan presented. Going further than this can go into a recursive back and forth. therefore if i did not respond to your counterargument that just means I agree to disagree and simply want the Staff to evaluate it themselves

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa Would you be kind enough to respond to OP and Fuji's rebuttal?

Consider this as refutes

https://vsbattles.com/threads/touhou-project-conceptual-manipulation-downgrade.150953/post-5572521

 

[KLOL506]

You came way way too late to moderate whether I am derailing or not. If you actually go from the first post, you would see which side is actually derailing.

I don't care. Both of you should can it and wait for the other people I tagged.

 

[ImmortalDread]

1. Yukari mentioned near-death experience not that she is capable of actually causing death to her who is not longer bound by life and death due to its absence
2. Being absent of concept doesn't not mean they are Type 1 concept nor is affecting someone with concept hax when said someone lacks concept is Type 1. that is merely potency and feats of Concept being able to affect someone who completely lacks said concept within him. You can't both lack concept and still say she has Type 1 concept which would make ity oxymoronic.
with that said i really only see Type 2 at best in here for boundary. but that is not my main concern because my concern is we blanket thise type into lesser being giving name to their spell card

In a typical causal relationship
if reality doesn't exist there won't be a causal relationship for Causality as well cannot exist. with that knowledge reality may have already begun even without creation or existence. reality can exist even if it is merely just a mass of chaos without order or void

Names predate the existence of an orderly world but it did not predate the existence of reality when everything is mixed together into chaos.
"It was a world in which all things are mixed together in chaos"
Implies something existed regardless of whether it was under the boundary of existence or nonexistence.
What this also tells us is that it was names that gave border thus instead of a singular thing it was divided into distinct things. Such as Existence nonexistence, real and imaginary, and other dualities that exist in the franchise

F, I wanted to respond, you were faster. The amount I get quoting literally did not let me proper address them.

 

[KLOL506]

Consider this as refutes

https://vsbattles.com/threads/touhou-project-conceptual-manipulation-downgrade.150953/post-5572521

And this is a counter-refute to Dread. Don't forget this either.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't care. Both of you should can it and wait for the other people I tagged.

KLOL, I respectfully would think you need to care, I mean, be fair. 1 whole page from them to derail the whole thread for some non-proved bs claim they made because of OP intentions irrelevance. This time you need actually to be fair even if you are opposed to the OP.

Like, you came out of nowhere and tell me to shut up while the full time they were derailing? Where is fairness?

Hell, I was the whole time telling them to stop and they never did.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And this is a counter-refute to Dread. Don't forget this either.

Which was already taken care of

https://vsbattles.com/threads/touhou-project-conceptual-manipulation-downgrade.150953/post-5572570

 

[Planck69]

Neutral for now.

 

[KLOL506]

KLOL, I respectfully would think you need to care, I mean, be fair. 1 whole page from them to derail the whole thread for some non-proved bs claim they made because of irrelevance OP's intention. This time you need actually to be fair even if you are opposed to the OP.

Non-proved BS claim

Let's not take it that far and let the staff decide this.

Like, you came out of nowhere and tell me to shut up while the full time they were derailing? Where is fairness?

First thing I did was respond to Fuji's comment, then you made yours. And all I said to you was not to make comments like that, until you mentioned the derailing.

Either way, all of you should immediately stop, wait for Fuji to make further responses and let the staff I tagged make decisions.

 

[KLOL506]

Which was already taken care of

https://vsbattles.com/threads/touhou-project-conceptual-manipulation-downgrade.150953/post-5572570

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you mind?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Would you mind?

Yes, yes, I'm getting to it. how tf did so many people post in like 5 minutes

 

[Reiner04]

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; The process of creating a spell card requires giving it a 'name' to define its form and power, not unlike how the gods gave 'names' to everything at the beginning of reality to give them form from nothingness, albeit on a much smaller scale[1][2][3]),

... I mean, the names for the cards are mere representing it's form of powers and it's characteristics are merely giving suffering or smth as far as I've read?

If it's not same as names since start of the creation and there are names for actual life and death, time and space then the point is still there to address.

Me bringing Ben 10 was just an example of giving the name fallacy. Having names as smth governing in the series doesn't mean all names should be treated same way as true names may just govern singular objects while common names can stand for and be given to singular or whole thing.

 

[Lynieryz]

Disagree FRA

 

[ImmortalDread]

If the concepts of life and death are destroyed, the boundary separating them will remain. That is independence from what the concept govern.

In fact, the scan does not imply what you claimed at all. The absence of something does not equate to being "independent" in any way.

If this were referring to actual characters, yes, but it's for concepts, which shows that the predation and destruction of what they govern doesn't harm the boundary itself.

There is no indication in the scan that supports your interpretation. Furthermore, you did not provide any evidence or scans to support your claim. All you presented were NEP 2 and TD type 1 or type 2, which do not contradict my statement.

Ah yes, because altering the nature of something and creating all of existence from nothing is definitely not concept hax. Get real.

That's not entirely accurate. The scan specifically refers to the actual "name" and not just the concept of it. It's important to note that not every scan uses "name" as a concept unless explicitly stated by the author. In this case, the reference is to nameless Gods and it would be incorrect to consider our names as concepts in this context.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Is this correct,
Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?
And also destruction of the part the God govern does not affect the God?

If all these three are true, then Name can be type 1 concepts

 

[ImmortalDread]

Let's not take it that far and let the staff decide this.

Sure, I wanted to point out the sufferness I had dealing with those comments that were clowning on the thread and derail a whole page.

First thing I did was respond to Fuji's comment, then you made yours. And all I said to you was not to make comments like that, until you mentioned the derailing.

This was my impression of having fun with her debating on this. Nothing hate here, I even added a heart, KLOL.

Either way, all of you should immediately stop, wait for Fuji to make further responses and let the staff I tagged make decisions.

Ya, I will still debate with her.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

You said it twice, we understood. The derailment of this thread is really crazy.

What the hell do you mean derailment? We’re agreeing with arguments against OP. If you wanna talk about derailing, look at the ******* dozens of unnecessary posts made after your OP clogging up the CRT.

 

[KLOL506]

Calm down peeps. If need be, I can ask for the derailing posts to be deleted.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What the hell do you mean derailment? We’re agreeing with arguments against OP. If you wanna talk about derailing, look at the ******* dozens of unnecessary posts made after your OP clogging up the CRT.

You said it twice with no new information, and to the same post she made.

Don't drag this further.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2. Being absent of concept doesn't not mean they are Type 1 concept nor is affecting someone with concept hax when said someone lacks concept is Type 1. that is merely potency and feats of Concept being able to affect someone who completely lacks said concept within him. You can't both lack concept and still say she has Type 1 concept which would make ity oxymoronic.
with that said i really only see Type 2 at best in here for boundary. but that is not my main concern because my concern is we blanket thise type into lesser being giving name to their spell card

That's... not even remotely what I was arguing. The point is that the alteration of life and death did not affect the boundary that governs them. It's not like Mokou was born as a type 5 immortal; She removed those concepts artificially, which again, did nothing to the boundary governing them.

In a typical causal relationship
if reality doesn't exist there won't be a causal relationship for Causality as well cannot exist. with that knowledge reality may have already begun even without creation or existence. reality can exist even if it is merely just a mass of chaos without order or void

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You want to claim reality didn't exist, but are also saying reality did exist, just in a state of chaos. Make up your mind, please.

Anyways, this doesn't debunk what I said; We don't just assume things happen in reverse order just because causality is ******. We would need direct feats or statements of that being the case. So until you bring that evidence, we have no reason to assume the concepts came after what they created.

Names predate the existence of an orderly world but it did not predate the existence of reality when everything is mixed together into chaos.
"It was a world in which all things are mixed together in chaos"
Implies something existed regardless of whether it was under the boundary of existence or nonexistence.
What this also tells us is that it was names that gave border thus instead of a singular thing it was divided into distinct things. Such as Existence nonexistence, real and imaginary, and other dualities that exist in the franchise

---

Except boundaries, which were created by names, were what created existence, nonexistence, void, form, emptiness, and well, everything. You can't say things existed when the concept of what "existence" is hadn't even been defined yet.

In case you need more evidence, nameless gods are directly stated to be "nothing", so namelessness is legitimately a state of nothingness and not just chaos. Not to mention the explanation of boundaries in PMiSS clearly says that without boundaries, nothing would exist, so it is definitely about existence itself.

Is this correct,
Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?
And also destruction of the part the God govern does not affect the God?

If all these three are true, then Name can be type 1 concepts

The first two are definitely true, though I don't remember if the third bit has any examples. I can look for some though.

However, boundaries also govern ideas spread across the world, and are unaffected by the destruction of what they govern, and boundaries are governed by names. According to the CM page, this would make names type 1 as well (since type 2/3 concepts can't govern type 1).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Calm down peeps. If need be, I can ask for the derailing posts to be deleted.

This is deleting a whole page, but this is a perfect solution!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You said it twice with no new information, and to the same post she made.

Don't drag this further.

...Kirb and Shiroiyo are two different people, Dread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

...Kirb and Shiroiyo are two different people, Dread.

oh- Damn, my bad. (I somehow saw same profile pictures) I guess I am dumb.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Is this correct,
Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?
And also destruction of the part the God govern does not affect the God?

If all these three are true, then Name can be type 1 concepts

I am pretty sure I saw a scan where gods didn't had any names. Let me check.

 

[Reiner04]

Gods are ideas that spread throughout the world?, and what gave Gods their power is their name?

No, it's just a simple idea that God is a single entity and he can changes his aspects as the names gets assigned to him with time passes but the god who doesn't have any name assigned to him stays same as he was before the creation, scan explicitly says they changes their nature rather than they get changed themselves, and they're like ideas that passes through us forever.

 

[ImmortalDread]

They did not have any names, they were nameless, I don't know why Fuji is equating “name” in that context as “concept”.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am pretty sure I saw a scan where gods didn't had any names. Let me check.

There are two forms of the gods: Their avatars/divine spirits which are governed by names, and the primordial form of the gods, which were the ones who gave everything names. So gods sometimes do have names and they sometimes don't, but those that do are governed by them.

 

[Shmooply]

Buggy forum doesn't send me notifications from this thread even after clicking the watch button, so I have to respond to it.

Literally everything you're all asking about regarding the gods and names stuff can be found from Chapter 15 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Which the 2hoe wiki has a page for.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Buggy forum doesn't send me notifications from this thread even after clicking the watch button, so I have to respond to it.

Really? Because it works fine for me.

Literally everything you're all asking about regarding the gods and names stuff can be found from Chapter 15 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia. Which the 2hoe wiki has a page for.

Thanks for source. I am interested on reading on it right now.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So MG gets type 3 and 2hoe type 2?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why MG is being mentioned here? It is irrelevant.

 

[Shmooply]

So MG gets type 3 and 2hoe type 2?

there is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoethere is no war between mg and 2hoe IGNORE THE BODIES IN MY BACKYARD.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So MG gets type 3 and 2hoe type 2?

Yes, and no. As long as the votes hold up, anyways.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

Gods didn't had name that's for sure.

At the same time that the power to name is a god’s power, the gods themselves didn’t have names in the beginning. Like with Takemikazuchi no Mikoto or Hachiman, the names of the gods we are familiar with nowadays only represent but one aspect of these gods. Takemikazuchi no Mikoto was originally Mikatsuchi (Pot Spirit), and just as the name implies, he was a god lodged in a jar. When his name changed to Takemikazuchi, he changed from a god of sorcery (as implied by the ‘pot’ character) to a god of swordsmanship (implied by the ‘thunder’ character). By changing its name, a god changes its nature, which is evidence that a god’s name is only one aspect of their selves.

In the beginning, the gods had a much more ambiguous shape, so they were nameless entities with no particular distinctions.