Touhou Project Conceptual Manipulation Downgrade

[EldemadeDityjon]

Predating reality is not necessary, by the way.

Madoka Magica is Type 1 because of the law/concepts being what shapes reality and time itself, and those appeared after the multiverse, given that Madoka used said law to rebuild the multiverse on a conceptual level across all of eras.

Names here do the same, they shape reality in a similar manner as they do not merely just build it, but straight up reshaped it completely, implying they're not realiant on it.

Concepts which forms the reality should be independent from the reality they governs is there any proof destroying the concept of name won't affect the concept of name itself?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Concepts which forms the reality should be independent from the reality they governs is there any proof destroying the concept of name won't affect the concept of name itself?

It's not necessary a proof. Again, Madoka Magica.

 

[Reiner04]

Names here do the same, they shape reality in a similar manner as they do not merely just build it, but straight up reshaped it completely, implying they're not realiant on it.

Names exists for all things in reality and those things aren't distinguishable from each other, if names are governing smth individual object then that would fall under type 3 not type 2, for that they need to govern fundamental aspects of reality as whole, not all singular objects individually.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Names exists for all things in reality and those things aren't distinguishable from each other, if names are governing smth individual object then that would fall under type 3 not type 2, for that they need to govern fundamental aspects of reality as whole, not all singular objects individually.

They're the reason why reality is not a mass of chaos, that's enough to prove superiority over it lol.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I guess People just want to derail my thread with unnecessary things. Funny no one actually trying to argue what's presented in the OP.

I agree with your thread at least till I see Fuji's counter points.
but it is really a Touhou and MGK thing, which i made as a harmless joke.

That said @StrymULTRA you are not refuting or addressing his points, so let @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara do it, instead of the thread getting dragged on needless

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's not necessary a proof. Again, Madoka Magica.

I don't care about that make a Downgrade CRT if you want. Current standard says what i claimed even above a staff literally clarified.

For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

This is current standard. Really if you want to nuke Madoka Conceptual Manipulation then that's upto you but My thread is based on how wiki treats conceptual manipulation so feel free to create a seperate thread for that one.

 

[Reiner04]

They're the reason why reality is not a mass of chaos, that's enough to prove superiority over it lol.

Then I remove your name or destroy your name, will reality crumble afterwards?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I agree with your thread at least till I see Fuji's counter points.
but it is really a Touhou and MGK thing, which i made as a harmless joke.

Well you know when a CRT gets dragged on staffs won't try to evaluate it so I want to avoid unnecessary comments that's all. Especially many staffs don't even want involve in Touhou CRTs because of supporters. No hate buddy I know you were joking.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with your thread at least till I see Fuji's counter points.
but it is really a Touhou and MGK thing, which i made as a harmless joke.

That said @StrymULTRA you are not refuting or addressing his points, so let @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara do it, instead of the thread getting dragged on needless

Princess of Pain is doing harmless jokes And ya I agree that the supporter of verse need to address the counter-arguments tho!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m fairly certain Strym is strawmanning off the basis of “predating” reality, when if you look at the original OP, he never says predate explicitly—he just says independent of.

Concepts in Touhou Project are independent from the reality they govern. From scans names only creates and destroys things and it's just type 3 concepts.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I’m fairly certain Strym is strawmanning off the basis of “predating” reality, when if you look at the original OP, he never says predate explicitly—he just say’s independent of.

I thought the thing was about predating lmfao.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is nothing predating in every scan, so drop the argument.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I thought the thing was about predating lmfao.

I’ve been reading this entire thread and nothing about OP nor the definition of conceptual manipulation says predating.

Not sure if this guts Touhou further, though, but it’s one recursive argument done.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They're the reason why reality is not a mass of chaos, that's enough to prove superiority over it lol.

Name didn't Existed until gods gave names to things which already debunks CM type 1 argument. Names are not independent from the reality they govern. If names were independent then they should have existed even before the world was born. World already existed where name didn't. Names came after when gods gave them. They named things individually which literally indicates personal concepts type 3 not type 2 or 1.

Reality/World already Existed names didn't. Names are not independent if they can't exists without the reality they govern.

I’m fairly certain Strym is strawmanning off the basis of “predating” reality, when if you look at the original OP, he never says predate explicitly—he just says independent of.

I guess we have to wait for Fuji arguments then.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Incredible that y’all have managed to send nearly an entire page of text before the opposition can make their argument against OP. Absolutely nothing suspicious or spiteful here in the least.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, as promised, here's my response.

Boundaries

Since the OP chose to use Yukari's CM justification, I'll also be covering why boundaries are type 1 concepts. To begin with, we already know boundaries affect universal concepts; There are boundaries of life and death, space and time, existence and nonexistence, and so on. Boundaries separate everything in reality, and without boundaries, all of reality would collapse into a state of formless chaos. This is, obviously, type 2. However, boundaries are also shown to not be affected by the alteration of what they govern; For example, Fujiwara no Mokou is a character who has consumed the Hourai elixir and is therefore completely absent of the concepts of life and death. Despite this, boundary users like Yukari can still force her to cross the boundary of life and death, showing that while it is possible to be absent of life and death, the boundary between them is independent of those concepts and will not be affected by their removal. Another example is the boundary of red and white, which is literally existence and nonexistence (or black and white, which is void [imaginary number] and nonexistence [zero]. Since boundaries created these two concepts, they must thus predate reality and therefore be unbound from it (since, if they were bound to existence, then they would never be able to exist in order to create existence to begin with). In a typical causal relationship, the creator [boundaries] must always come before the creation [existence], it's quite simple.

TL;DR: Boundaries govern all of reality and aren't bound to alterations in what they govern, making them type 1.

Names

Now onto the main point. To start, names created boundaries ("when naming something, a new border is created" [note that borders and boundaries are used interchangeably in Touhou, they mean the same thing]). This is directly stated, and is important because type 2 or lower concepts cannot create type 1 concepts. Two quotes from the CM page prove this, the first from the notes section:

"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the type of concept they have been shown to manipulate. A character able to manipulate a concept on a Type 3 level cannot manipulate any higher concept type."

And the second from the type 1 description:

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."

So if boundaries are type 1, names have to be type 1 as well. Names themselves though have their own evidence of type 1, starting with how they govern all of reality. When a god is given a name, their nature changes accordingly (such as a god of pottery becoming a god of sorcery by changing their name). However, this nature of the gods actually takes the form of an idea spread across all of reality; So when you give a name to a god, you're not just changing that god alone, but also the entire idea they represent (using the former example, it'd be affecting all instances of pottery and sorcery in existence). Hell, this would even extend to boundaries since gods of boundaries exist, showing yet again that names govern boundaries and would have to be superior to them. Keep in mind this is just an individual name doing this, not a broader concept of names. Also as explained previously, names created reality and thus predate it; Again, as names created everything from nothingness, that means names had to have come first, and thus be unbound from what they created. Otherwise, names wouldn't be able to exist to begin with, for the same reason as boundaries.

TL;DR: Names created type 1 concepts and govern them, govern ideas spread across all of reality, and predate reality.

Guess I'll wait on some counterpoints.

But are the moment the first block of words in the paragraph would be Type 2. The last two example are rather narrow and would default to Type 3.

But the who universal separation thing qualifies for Type 2 if nothing else.

Since you were waiting for a rebuttal, here it is. TL;DR boundaries are type 1, names created boundaries, names govern all of reality.

Touhou and MGK fan war?
some men just want to see the world burn

Everyone in this thread is destined for hell.

I’m fairly certain Strym is strawmanning off the basis of “predating” reality, when if you look at the original OP, he never says predate explicitly—he just says independent of.

Predating reality means you exist independently of it. If you depended on any part of reality, then you would be unable to predate it without just dying or disappearing (since the things you depend on wouldn't exist yet).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Incredible that y’all have managed to send nearly an entire page of text before the opposition can make their argument against OP. Absolutely nothing suspicious or spiteful here in the least.

There are multiple of oppositions, and they have right to discuss and share. There is no “suspicious” on this. Why no one actually stop with this bs right now?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Predating reality means you exist independently of it. If you depended on any part of reality, then you would be unable to predate it without just dying or disappearing (since the things you depend on wouldn't exist yet).

Not inherently, no. Most things just happen to get Type 1 via predating reality, there are verses that have Type 1 despite not having concepts that predate reality, yet remain independent from it. Madoka Magicka for one, as Styrm put.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Incredible that y’all have managed to send nearly an entire page of text before the opposition can make their argument against OP. Absolutely nothing suspicious or spiteful here in the least.

Hmmmm yes i cant possibly think of a reason why Elde would single out my verse after I downgraded MG, no reasons at all, definitely not sussy

Not inherently, no. Most things just happen to get Type 1 via predating reality, there are verses that have Type 1 despite not having concepts that predate reality, yet remain independent from it. Madoka Magicka for one, as Styrm put.

I didn't say that not predating reality didn't count for type 1, I'm just saying that predating reality can often be proof of type 1 by itself (which you seem to agree with?). There are multiple ways of getting type 1, this is just one of them.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Fuji, did Elde break any rules with the thread? If yes, report him in RvR, if not, drop with this absurd derailment.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I didn't say that not predating reality didn't count for type 1, I'm just saying that predating reality can often be proof of type 1 by itself (which you seem to agree with?). There are multiple ways of getting type 1, this is just one of them.

Yeah, I would agree.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Okay, as promised, here's my response.

Boundaries

Since the OP chose to use Yukari's CM justification, I'll also be covering why boundaries are type 1 concepts. To begin with, we already know boundaries affect universal concepts; There are boundaries of life and death, space and time, existence and nonexistence, and so on. Boundaries separate everything in reality, and without boundaries, all of reality would collapse into a state of formless chaos. This is, obviously, type 2. However, boundaries are also shown to not be affected by the alteration of what they govern; For example, Fujiwara no Mokou is a character who has consumed the Hourai elixir and is therefore completely absent of the concepts of life and death. Despite this, boundary users like Yukari can still force her to cross the boundary of life and death, showing that while it is possible to be absent of life and death, the boundary between them is independent of those concepts and will not be affected by their removal. Another example is the boundary of red and white, which is literally existence and nonexistence (or black and white, which is void [imaginary number] and nonexistence [zero]. Since boundaries created these two concepts, they must thus predate reality and therefore be unbound from it (since, if they were bound to existence, then they would never be able to exist in order to create existence to begin with). In a typical causal relationship, the creator [boundaries] must always come before the creation [existence], it's quite simple.

TL;DR: Boundaries govern all of reality and aren't bound to alterations in what they govern, making them type 1.

Names

Now onto the main point. To start, names created boundaries ("when naming something, a new border is created" [note that borders and boundaries are used interchangeably in Touhou, they mean the same thing]). This is directly stated, and is important because type 2 or lower concepts cannot create type 1 concepts. Two quotes from the CM page prove this, the first from the notes section:

"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the type of concept they have been shown to manipulate. A character able to manipulate a concept on a Type 3 level cannot manipulate any higher concept type."

And the second from the type 1 description:

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."

So if boundaries are type 1, names have to be type 1 as well. Names themselves though have their own evidence of type 1, starting with how they govern all of reality. When a god is given a name, their nature changes accordingly (such as a god of pottery becoming a god of sorcery by changing their name). However, this nature of the gods actually takes the form of an idea spread across all of reality; So when you give a name to a god, you're not just changing that god alone, but also the entire idea they represent (using the former example, it'd be affecting all instances of pottery and sorcery in existence). Hell, this would even extend to boundaries since gods of boundaries exist, showing yet again that names govern boundaries and would have to be superior to them. Keep in mind this is just an individual name doing this, not a broader concept of names. Also as explained previously, names created reality and thus predate it; Again, as names created everything from nothingness, that means names had to have come first, and thus be unbound from what they created. Otherwise, names wouldn't be able to exist to begin with, for the same reason as boundaries.

TL;DR: Names created type 1 concepts and govern them, govern ideas spread across all of reality, and predate reality.


Since you were waiting for a rebuttal, here it is. TL;DR boundaries are type 1, names created boundaries, names govern all of reality.


Everyone in this thread is destined for hell.


Predating reality means you exist independently of it. If you depended on any part of reality, then you would be unable to predate it without just dying or disappearing (since the things you depend on wouldn't exist yet).

I disagree with the downgrade FRA. Fuji tackled everything perfectly here.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I need a moment to see all the scans.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I disagree with the downgrade FRA. Fuji tackled everything perfectly here.

She didn't I will responding to that later. I will be offline for a Bit. I don't even know where to start she literally spammed Random things which are not necessary for CM arguments.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I disagree FRA.

I won't way any more because I would get toxic

 

[Reiner04]

There are boundaries of life and death, space and time,

I mean, are we certain that these boundaries are the boundaries that has something to do with the names distinguishing named things? Names creates boundaries between all named things but that doesn't mean each time the word "boundaries" has been used it'll refer to only name and named thing, that boundary of life and death seems kinda vague and more like a name of some skill that has the ability to manipulate ppls life and death barrier and causing them to suffer and all. Barrier of Time and space is entirely without context for me to say anything.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Boundaries

To begin with, we already know boundaries affect universal concepts; There are boundaries of life and death, space and time, existence and nonexistence, and so on. Boundaries separate everything in reality, and without boundaries, all of reality would collapse into a state of formless chaos. This is, obviously, type 2. However, boundaries are also shown to not be affected by the alteration of what they govern; For example, Fujiwara no Mokou is a character who has consumed the Hourai elixir and is therefore completely absent of the concepts of life and death.

Ok but I don't see how it is being independent of concepts at all. All this just implies laws of the universe. Nothing refers to CM type 1.

Despite this, boundary users like Yukari can still force her to cross the boundary of life and death, showing that while it is possible to be absent of life and death, the boundary between them is independent of those concepts and will not be affected by their removal. Another example is the boundary of red and white, which is literally existence and nonexistence (or black and white, which is void [imaginary number] and nonexistence [zero]. Since boundaries created these two concepts, they must thus predate reality and therefore be unbound from it (since, if they were bound to existence, then they would never be able to exist in order to create existence to begin with). In a typical causal relationship, the creator [boundaries] must always come before the creation [existence], it's quite simple.

This is all immortality type 5, NEP 2 and TD type 2 or (type 1), nothing refers to CM type 1 at all.

Names

Now onto the main point. To start, names created boundaries ("when naming something, a new border is created" [note that borders and boundaries are used interchangeably in Touhou, they mean the same thing]).

May I know the evidence of this bolded part? Because it does not sound like that. Reiner already pointed out this.

This is directly stated, and is important because type 2 or lower concepts cannot create type 1 concepts. Two quotes from the CM page prove this, the first from the notes section:

"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the type of concept they have been shown to manipulate. A character able to manipulate a concept on a Type 3 level cannot manipulate any higher concept type."

And the second from the type 1 description:

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."

So if boundaries are type 1

names have to be type 1 as well.

They don't. No standards can vouch this.

Names themselves though have their own evidence of type 1, starting with how they govern all of reality. When a god is given a name, their nature changes accordingly (such as a god of pottery becoming a god of sorcery by changing their name).

The scan seems implying that Gods were before being nameless. Nothing implies name being actually a concept to start with.

However, this nature of the gods actually takes the form of an idea spread across all of reality; So when you give a name to a god, you're not just changing that god alone, but also the entire idea they represent (using the former example, it'd be affecting all instances of pottery and sorcery in existence). Hell, this would even extend to boundaries since gods of boundaries exist, showing yet again that names govern boundaries and would have to be superior to them. Keep in mind this is just an individual name doing this, not a broader concept of names.

This scan does not imply anything with CM type 1, let alone the non-proved interpretation you made.

Also as explained previously, names created reality and thus predate it; Again, as names created everything from nothingness, that means names had to have come first, and thus be unbound from what they created. Otherwise, names wouldn't be able to exist to begin with, for the same reason as boundaries.

Nothing refers to predating the reality. Name manipulation is CM type 3.


I still agree with the thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, are we certain that these boundaries are the boundaries that has something to do with the names distinguishing named things? Names creates boundaries between all named things but that doesn't mean each time the word "boundaries" has been used it'll refer to only name and named thing, that boundary of life and death seems kinda vague and more like a name of some skill that has the ability to manipulate ppls life and death barrier and causing them to suffer and all. Barrier of Time and space is entirely without context for me to say anything.

In Touhou the name of a power is literally what the power does, so name fallacy doesn't exist in the verse.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This does not even sound like concepts to me at all, rather laws of universe or duality.

 

[Reiner04]

In Touhou the name of a power is literally what the power does, so name fallacy doesn't exist in the verse.

That kinda entirely name fallacy, seems like if the verse uses names as concept then all kind of names will refer to concepts if that's the case then there is no point in making arguements as time and space itself are names, life and death itself are names, in ben 10 everything has names and names can be used to have a absolute control over smth then that doesn't mean time and space will fall under it. It needs to be specified that the lvl of reality names governs are extends far to fundamental aspects of reality as whole which will cause a change across, such as time and space, life and death, not some vague statements about it with no context whatsoever.

 

[Shiroiyo]

Fujiwara explained it better than I could possibly have done. With that said, I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That kinda entirely name fallacy, seems like if the verse uses names as concept then all kind of names will refer to concepts if that's the case then there is no point in making arguements as time and space itself are names, life and death itself are names, in ben 10 everything has names and names can be used to have a absolute control over smth then that doesn't mean time and space will fall under it. It needs to be specified that the lvl of reality names governs are extends far to fundamental aspects of reality as whole which will cause a change across, such as time and space, life and death, not some vague statements about it with no context whatsoever.

I mean about this

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; The process of creating a spell card requires giving it a 'name' to define its form and power, not unlike how the gods gave 'names' to everything at the beginning of reality to give them form from nothingness, albeit on a much smaller scale[1][2][3]),

Also kindly do not mention Ben 10 here please as it blatantly doesn't work that way thank you

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with the downgrade FRA. Fuji tackled everything perfectly here.

Fujiwara explained it better than I could possibly have done. With that said, I disagree with the downgrade.

You said it twice, we understood. The derailment of this thread is really crazy.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ok but I don't see how it is being independent of concepts at all. All this just implies laws of the universe. Nothing refers to CM type 1.

If the concepts of life and death are destroyed, the boundary separating them will remain. That is independence from what the concept govern.

This is all immortality type 5, NEP 2 and TD type 2 or (type 1), nothing refers to CM type 1 at all.

If this were referring to actual characters, yes, but it's for concepts, which shows that the predation and destruction of what they govern doesn't harm the boundary itself.

They don't. No standards can vouch this.

Yes, they do. Type 2 concepts can't create or govern type 1 concepts. As stated here:

"All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the type of concept they have been shown to manipulate. A character able to manipulate a concept on a Type 3 level cannot manipulate any higher concept type."

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature."

So names would scale to whatever level of CM boundaries have, since they created and govern boundaries.

The scan seems implying that Gods were before being nameless. Nothing implies name being actually a concept to start with.

Ah yes, because altering the nature of something and creating all of existence from nothing is definitely not concept hax. Get real.

This scan does not imply anything with CM type 1, let alone the non-proved interpretation you made.

It's to help prove that names affect all of reality.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You said it twice, we understood. The derailment of this thread is really crazy.

What derailment? People agreeing with my points is derailing? They're free to give their opinions (doubly so since they know a fair bit about Touhou themselves), so stop trying to silence them.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I mean about this

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; The process of creating a spell card requires giving it a 'name' to define its form and power, not unlike how the gods gave 'names' to everything at the beginning of reality to give them form from nothingness, albeit on a much smaller scale[1][2][3]),

The justification itself is not even Type 1 to begin with. I am starting to understand why DT don't want involvement.

Also kindly do not mention Ben 10 here please as it blatantly doesn't work that way thank you

Elaborate rather requesting from someone to drop it. This is not a counter-argument.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The justification itself is not even Type 1 to begin with. I am starting to understand why DT don't want involvement.

I mean, I never said the justifications were good. But names are type 1 concepts in and of themselves, that's the point here.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What derailment? People agreeing with my points is derailing? They're free to give their opinions (doubly so since they know a fair bit about Touhou themselves), so stop trying to silence them.

They have repeated themselves, as I mentioned earlier. Unless there are connectivity issues, I have no issue with it. However, as they have repeated themselves without any explanation, it seems unnecessary.

I did not intend to limit "freedom" in any way, but if you revisit my previous comment, you will notice that it is a duplicate.

Given this precedent, I could hypothetically spam "Agree FRA" every two minutes, without it being considered as derailing.

 

[Duedate8898]

Looking at the OP, it looks like Touhou actually is almost the exact definition of Type 1 CM. I struggle to see what exactly would cause for it to qualify for Type 3 instead

 

[ImmortalDread]

I mean, I never said the justifications were good. But names are type 1 concepts in and of themselves, that's the point here.

I will respond to your comment above, and we will “talk” if names is actually type 1 or not. Jeez, give me a break, I am loving the debate right now