Touhou Project Canonicity and Merging

[Antvasima]

Anyway for the new proposition:

It should be fine to apply what Fujiwara was arguing. The PC-98 setting and events do exists but in terms of consistency and scaling refer to mostly windows. I think if information that were stated to be in pc-98 also are implied in Windows, those would be okay to use. In that case the yuuka example is the best one I can give. To add onto it to make it a bit more solid. She states she pretty much knows Reimu and Marisa prior to PoFV events, marisa noticeably works better as Marisa is young contextually in LLS.

For a new thing on the verse page to make that more descriptive:
"The events of PC-98 and Windows both exists in the same canon, however due to a few plot inconsistencies, and lack of evidence for direct connection, keys will remain separated to avoid major confusion. However if information from the PC-98 is to be used, it will also need to have similar information stated in Windows."

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[Mobi2]

Windows Makai has a reputation for being worse than hell and being a good place to train and study magic. Those things alone would make it recognizable to people who've never gone there, such as Sakuya. Also, just because a character doesn't ask what about a location doesn't mean they've physically been there.

Again Reimu has been there just because it's reputation was explored more in windows doesn't mean PC-98 is thrown away. Seems like we're at an impasse lol

Perfect, I agree with everything.

Can't wait for CDS to bring Mima back and make this whole thread outdated

Time to cry if it's not Mima. Inb4 it's tojiko lmao.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again Reimu has been there just because it's reputation was explored more in windows doesn't mean PC-98 is thrown away. Seems like we're at an impasse lol

Yeah this really doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Hopefully you agree with the current proposed changes at least

Time to cry if it's not Mima

At least her chances of showing up again are better than 17.5's

 

[Mobi2]

Yeah this really doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Hopefully you agree with the current proposed changes at least

At least her chances of showing up again are better than 17.5's

Yeah the proposed changes are fine for now so you can put my vote on it otherwise this is just gonna be like 20 pages of an unstoppable force vs an immovable object lol.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

So from what I can tell, and sadly low participation:

Agree with the new changes: Mobi2, FujiwaraYesMokou, LordJJJ, DaReaperMan, Me

Neutral: Chariot190, Onsokuno (?)

Disagree: DontTalkDT

 

[Chariot190]

I'm neutral as long as there's sufficient evidence. I don't care what it ends up as, as long as it is actually legit.
I do have qualms if said evidence to get to that point is just a nod or tongue and cheek reference.
Which some of it very much is, some of it is of course more fair, so it moreso depends on what the threshold it is to change a whole canonicity standards for something like this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am afraid that DontTalk is the one who makes the decisions here, so if he disagrees, this cannot be applied.

 

[Mariogoods]

Personally, I disagree with the proposal of merging PC-98 and Windows characters. They have slightly different worldview.

In Gensou Bulletin Board, ZUN stated that:

設定は、基本的に最新作が一番細かく、正しいものと思ってください。

巫女さんの使ってる神仙術も、悪霊の使う怪しい術も、全て同じ力。
幻想郷に警察が存在する（以上、夢時空）
博麗神社付近には相変わらず魅魔や幽香などがいる。

もちろん特に変化はありません。
ただ、ゲームの中で語っていない設定以外が存在しない訳も無く、ゲーム中では
その内のほんの一部が表面化しているだけだと思ってください。

基本的に、紅魔郷以前のものは、世界観は同じでも設定は無い物としてみた方が
これ以降の作品が楽しめる様な気がします。


　　　上海アリス幻樂団（雑談）掲示板、2003/08/01ZUN氏コメントより

Windows-era Touhou works are generally different world. For example, "Gensokyo" is not used as a location name.

 

[Shmooply]

Following this for now.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Personally, I disagree with the proposal of merging PC-98 and Windows characters. They have slightly different worldview.

In Gensou Bulletin Board, ZUN stated that:
[snip]
Windows-era Touhou works are generally different world. For example, "Gensokyo" is not used as a location name.

“Basically, the ones before the Koumakyo (EoSD) have the same view of the world, but it is better to see them as having no settings.
I feel that you can enjoy the works after that..”
Definitely sounds like both settings exist though.

We kind of already changed the proposal though, I don’t know if you meant merge keys or canonicity.

For anyone who didn’t understand the OP, it’s stated both worlds exist, so long as both settings are proven to take place, for slight reduction in complicated matters, me and fujiwara decided to keep both as separate keys but merge the settings and everything that happened as established events. Something Yuuka did multiple times, by recalling events and whatnot previous to PoFV which really only could have been referring to the PC-98 era.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think we should get everyone's input again considering the proposal has changed, it's not fair to assume everyone who disagreed with the original proposal disagrees with the current one, and that everyone who agreed with the original proposal agrees with this one.

As of right now, everyone who agrees/disagrees with the current proposed changes. as far as I can tell:

Agree: Me, Guardian_Doge, Mobi2
Disagree: Mariogoods
Neutral: Chariot190

 

[Antvasima]

Can you explain what DontTalk currently needs to evaluate here?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can you explain what DontTalk currently needs to evaluate here?

The most recent proposal, which would be to keep the PC-98 and Windows keys separate, but update the verse page to say that PC-98 is canon and is being kept separate due to a few inconsistencies and a lack of direct connections. They've only given their opinion on the original proposal, which was to merge the two eras.

 

[Udlmaster]

I have no problems with 98 and post TH5 content being canon.

I have no problems with there being changes to the PC-98 profiles either with them being canon, I never really understood why they were made Non-canon in the first place since ZUN doesn't exactly think they're non-canon himself just that they had different ideas while being made which doesn't mean they're non-canon, just a different philosophy, he just doesn't use many of the characters there, but that's a trait he's always had, only very select characters ever return outside of the Player characters (Marisa, Reimu, Youmu & Sanae).

 

[Urshani]

i agree

 

[Mariogoods]

Actually, I never denied that PC-98 is non-canon, but PC-98 Touhou and Windows Touhou are like Star Wars Canon and Star Wars Legend and the profile would be like composited if we don't separate them.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It's nice to see all Touhou Supporters gather like this, it's very civil too.

 

[Shmooply]

thanks for reminding me i still havent added myself to the supporters list brb

 

[Shmooply]

Forgot to mention that I agree with this CRT as well.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Cool.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you explain what DontTalk currently needs to evaluate here?

The most recent proposal, which would be to keep the PC-98 and Windows keys separate, but update the verse page to say that PC-98 is canon and is being kept separate due to a few inconsistencies and a lack of direct connections. They've only given their opinion on the original proposal, which was to merge the two eras.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help out a bit more here please?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, as a work of the original author PC-98 is of course canon. It's its own separate canon but still a canon to itself. So I'm ok with saying that.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I agree with the proposals, they don't see to be really that separated from each other.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

To make sure, DonttalkDT, do you agree with this:

for slight reduction in complicated matters, me and fujiwara decided to keep both as separate keys but merge the settings and everything that happened as established events. Something Yuuka did multiple times, by recalling events and whatnot previous to PoFV which really only could have been referring to the PC-98 era.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to respond to the above post and make further clarifications regarding what is acceptable to apply here please?

 

[Udlmaster]

To make sure, DonttalkDT, do you agree with this:

Basically have them be time gated keys?

But wouldn't there be problems with when they fight the God characters?

 

[DontTalkDT]

To make sure, DonttalkDT, do you agree with this:

Nah. Not with that. As said, both canon, but separate canons.

(And vague references to PC98 don't change anything but that aside)

Anyways, maybe @Saikou_The_Lewd_King should make a decision here. He's been managing Touhou stuff the last years.

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou has unfortunately not been very active at all recently, so it might be best if you make a decision instead.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Ok ant, it's fine if this thread is closed, DT pretty much disagrees with both the new and old proposals of the main subject of this CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then.