Touhou Project Canonicity and Merging

[Guardian_Doge]

This CRT will basically merge both key’s (PC-98 and Windows) since I think the way the canonicity is being treated is rather redundant.

So basically this was said on the verse page

The complicated part is that there is a discontinuity between games 1-5 (The PC-98 era) and the rest of the games (The Windows Era). Although ZUN has stated that the 6th game was clean from the previous games and that the PC-98 Game should be ignored, he has also stated that the setting of the PC-98 games still lives to this day and just do not get to be shown, which results in some confusion over the actual canonicity of the PC-98 games.

The main part here is when he said pc-98 was a “clean sweep” was in reference to plot for a new game:

[“What shall I do for next time, I wonder.

As my general plan of 3 works has been achieved, I'm thinking of undergoing some reconstruction for the time being. I have an outline for what the next work will be like, but not anything beyond that. I'll take a look at it shortly.


I will say this much, I think the next work will have a sudden drop in scale. Perhaps down to the level of EoSD. Characters may also be trimmed down to the bare essentials and will not inherit much from the previous games, and it'll be like visiting a new world. At least, that's what I'm thinking the flow will be like. (laugh)

The clean sweep transition from MS to EoSD was also for a similar reason. As the Touhou world tends to always gets bigger and more diverse (and since no one disappears),
there has to be a point where you can't go back.” ]

For reference:
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Afterword

Zun states in the excerpt above that the transition was meant to show just how much diversity Touhou has, not to make a cut clear division of the games. As earlier in that same excerpt he notes that the next game he makes (remember this is after IN) it’ll be like visiting a new world (notice how it is a simile not a concrete assertion), buuut this is the windows era and we certainly don’t count each game as separate canonical pieces.


───────────────────────────────────────────────────

There’s also several examples of the PC-98 setting still existing within Windows, like:

•1st Example: Alice Margatroid's first appearance occurs in Mystic Square, which is part of PC-98, however, she reappears in Perfect Cherry Blossom, and remains as a recurring character. We know for sure that Alice is the same being that she recognizes Reimu in PCB, which would be impossible if she were a different Alice.
(Don't try to use a reasoning like "Oh they must have a history within Windows Era" because that is a massive assumption and makes fundamentally no sense for Zun to make a new continuity with zero backstory)

•Number two: Yuuka Kazami first appeared on PC-98, but reappears in the Windows Age. Not only that, but it is also claimed that Reimu fought Yuuka on multiple occasions, which would be impossible if you know each other only since the Windows Age, since they only fought once in this Age. In addition, Reimu herself claims to have defeated Yuuka before, referring to the Lotus Land Story incident

•3rd example: ZUN, the creator of the series, states that Genji, a PC-98 character, still lives behind Hakurei Shrine.

•4th: Reimu mentions that an evil spirit has already haunted the Hakurei Shrine, this referring to Mima, being that this is what she did in Story of Eastern Wonderland.

•5th example: Mima also has an appearance in Akyu's Untouched Score. By the way AUS is verbatim stated to be connected to Yougakudan which is also a direct existence in Windows age, proof in PMiSS

•Last example: The most important proof of both existing is, ZUN himself stating that PC-98 and Windows occur in the same world, only, if there is any contradiction, the Age that would have more weight over the other would be that of Windows because it is the most modern, however at no time did it affirm that they are not canon, or that it is in another universe, or similar. As far as I know, there is no major contradictions in regarding both existing.

TL;DR
Unless a contradiction takes place, only then can the Windows Era take precedence for that specific contradiction.

Other conceptions for why PC-98 is unable to merge with Windows in theory

One of the other things I see people use to help PC-98 be separated is by how ZUN said in his emails “Ignore those games like you would ignore derivative works” but the problem with using this is he never said it was non-canonical, he was making a comparison for why the question (of Yuki and Mai being dead) was irrelevant to EoSD.

Q: • Are Yuki and Mai really dead?
I know we're dealing with a PC-98 game, but were Yuki and Mai from Mystic Square really killed?
Looking in particular in the conversation when Lady Mima and Yuki are left... (sweat)
Or is this also a type of joke, like Lady Remilia's statement that "Sakuya is dead" in EoSD?

A: Basically, they're whatever-works types, so they might not be dead. I generally have no comment regarding the PC-98 games.

Of course he would have no comment for an irrelevant question on an entirely different interview.
Reference: here

•Another thing is how people disingenuously say that “lore wise, pc98 should have no effect on Windows”, when that’s blatantly wrong as Zun in Strange creators of Outer World indicates the previous 5 games exist. Simply that it’d be awkward to suddenly bring old characters back when it doesn’t fit the narrative of his next work.

Conclusively, I believe that both canons should be merged because of how all of the ruckus is caused by people trying to make strawman like arguments regarding Zun’s words like “Ignore it, as it isn’t relevant to this specific game” and things along those lines, not only that but I provided several references and interpretations that are consistent with pc-98 and windows era co-existing.

There will be no tiering affected by this CRT..yet. [Mainly because it regards a cosmology revision] And hopefully this is non-problematic.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Wait I put this in Q&A ...

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I've already asked to move this thread to content revision.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What an interesting question!

 

[Antvasima]

I moved this thread to the right forum.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

What an interesting question!

Dear lord.
That aside, what are your thoughts?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think it's fine from what I know, which is barely anything

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I agree with that, I always see the PC-98 as cannon, that weird disconnect in continuity didn't make much sense.

But I want to ask what is gonna to get changed after the CRT other than acknowledging the PC-98 Canonicity in verse? You said at the start that the keys will get merged but at the end you said that there will be no tiering affected that why I ask that question, will Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka and Alice lose thier PC-98 key? Because if yes I am kinda effy in that in a reason for a reason unrelated to Canonicity

There will be no tiering affected by this CRT..yet.

Is that mean that we may get Low 2-C Shinki in the future?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I agree with that, I always see the PC-98 as cannon, that weird disconnect in continuity didn't make much sense.

Finally back home after work. And yeah, pretty sure it only happened due to lack of supporters too.

But I want to ask what is gonna to get changed after the CRT other than acknowledging the PC-98 Canonicity in verse? You said at the start that the keys will get merged but at the end you said that there will be no tiering affected that why I ask that question, will Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka and Alice lose thier PC-98 key? Because if yes I am kinda effy in that in a reason for a reason unrelated to Canonicity

Yes, the (mine mostly) plan is to merge the cosmological factors as well, which answers your question that was striked through. I'm definitely thinking of Low 2-C shinki, as well as making it cut clear scientific references and theories apply, to one the main observable universe, and mainly the larger whole multiverse, (I was thinking of doing something for the brane worlds, but too big of a jump.)

And what reason would that be?

 

[Chariot190]

We know for sure that Alice is the same being that she recognizes Reimu in PCB, which would be impossible if she were a different Alice.

Actually, if I recall, her recognizing them is a bit of a in joke. In reference to the Demo of PCB. She recognizes them due to the demo ending at her, and once the full game is out she's like "Hey I remember you [from the demo]". Or something along those lines, it's been a long while.

Could be wrong, but I'm like 99% sure that's the actual context behind that, it being just a meta joke.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Actually, if I recall, her recognizing them is a bit of a in joke. In reference to the Demo of PCB. She recognizes them due to the demo ending at her, and once the full game is out she's like "Hey I remember you [from the demo]". Or something along those lines, it's been a long while.

Could be wrong, but I'm like 99% sure that's the actual context behind that, it being just a meta joke.

Well the demo actually ends at chen, I'm pretty sure.

She states to know her twice.

And these are the references

Soooo seems weird to argue it was for the demo. Anyway, I'll be a bit busy today, I'll come back later.

 

[Chariot190]

What? The august 2002 demo ended at Alice not Chen? (In fact, most demos end at the stage 3 boss).
But regardless, I'm aware of what it says.

But it feels a bit like you're hyper focusing single aspects of lines, Alice acts like she knows Reimu sure, but Reimu also acts like she's never seen Alice in her life.
There honestly might be a connection between 98 and Windows, but it's important to differentiate between nods and callbacks to previous works and haha 4th wall break type lines and actual establishing lore and connective canonicity.

A nudge and a wink doesn't always mean the thing it's making a call back to is canon. Some of what is shown here definitely falls under that, some doesn't though so that's fair, but there's a thin line.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

What? The august 2002 demo ended at Alice not Chen? (In fact, most demos end at the stage 3 boss).
But regardless, I'm aware of what it says.

So it would seem.

But it feels a bit like you're hyper focusing single aspects of lines, Alice acts like she knows Reimu sure, but Reimu also acts like she's never seen Alice in her life.

I don’t necessarily think so. Reimu herself likely doesn’t “remember” due to the element of how she really doesn’t care who she fights, to her everyone is equal. And the line ZUN said in his IN afterword, about
“As the Touhou world tends to always gets bigger and more diverse (and since no one disappears),
there has to be a point where you can't go back.”
I think quite definitively makes it noticeable what the intent for his connection of the games are.

There honestly might be a connection between 98 and Windows, but it's important to differentiate between nods and callbacks to previous works and haha 4th wall break type lines and actual establishing lore and connective canonicity.

Right. Which the yuuka example does.

A nudge and a wink doesn't always mean the thing it's making a call back to is canon. Some of what is shown here definitely falls under that, some doesn't though so that's fair, but there's a thin line.

Yeah, an original argument from a previous draft was about byakuren using a spellcard that looked like shinki’s but very clearly is nothing more than a reference.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

And what reason would that be

I mean that I am effy in merging keys for the characters that apear for both eras, and that because those characters seems to get strongest (and even get more abilites) in the gap between the two eras, Reimu was lacking training in PC-98 (something that mentioned multiple times in PC-98 games) while in Windows she seems to had finish her training as a shrine maiden, and we shouldn't forget how Reimu was unable to fly by herself in PC-98 era where in Windows era, flying become a main ability for her, along side other shrine maiden abilites that she lack in PC-98 era, For Marisa, she is known to train and try to make her magic stronger always, so her getting stronger in the time gap between the two eras. Even if makai creation get accelted as L2-C, I don't think they should have thier meged as Reimu and Marisa had early get a noticeable progress in the gap between the eras


Also since the PC-98 will become completly cannon to Windows, shouldn't PC-98 era yokais and demons (demons are type of yokai in touhou right?) get Low godly regen and resistance to mind manipulation? And Shinki get the abilites of gods and Primordial form key?

 

[DontTalkDT]

As ZUN said, PC-98 is like a derivative work to Windows Canon.
It's like Batman movies are derivative works to Batman Comics. Sure, both share characters, Batman in the movies might already know Joker from some prior case, Batman might have the usual backstory and they take place in the same world (In the sense that both have Gotham etc.), but they are still not canon to each other.
Heck, as ZUN acknowledges in the very quote you posted regarding them having the same world, there are contradictions between the storylines.

 

[Chariot190]

I don’t necessarily think so. Reimu herself likely doesn’t “remember” due to the element of how she really doesn’t care who she fights, to her everyone is equal. And the line ZUN said in his IN afterword, about .
“As the Touhou world tends to always gets bigger and more diverse (and since no one disappears), there has to be a point where you can't go back.”

Reimu very, very, clearly doesn't know who she's talking to, she's kinda baffled if anything and wondering who it might be. And be honest now, Reimu isn't one to forget someone like Alice, in that short of time, if she forget she would've at least went "oh wait now I remember" after a little bit or after the fight.

Chalking it up to Reimu actually straight up forgetting is incredibly suspect, especially given Alice's previous interactions with her and the fact Reimu is far more likely to have forgotten numerous other characters, which she doesn't.

And that afterword is to loose to actively use as real evidence for PC-98 canonicity, if we're working on having to prove 98 is canon, and not that it is by default, that could very well just be talking about how Reimu doesn't go around murdering everyone so they stick around.

I think quite definitively makes it noticeable what the intent for his connection of the games are.

His intent pretty clearly has them in two different groups of things, authorial intent doesn't really matter when you're arguing that they actually do exist within the same canon. The argument is something that exists within canon and thus lore and cosmology purposes, when what's intended is "hey just dont really think about those one's ok?", doesn't mean they aren't canon, to use an example more my style, Araki in regards to Steel Ball Run straight-up said to ignore Part 1-6 in regards tp the story of 7, of course 1-6 are indeed canon to 7, but there's a clear disconnect, that could be the case here, or it could not. I'll wait to see more information first, or let other's judge, honestly I'm indifferent to be honest.
And that's quite vague regardless.

Right. Which the yuuka example does.

Sure. I never said it wasn't, some definitely seem to be legit, but I'm saying be careful, I have no qualms if they are or aren't canon, but I'm saying make sure there's actual solid evidence for it and not to confuse meta callbacks and basic references as actual canonical linking.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

PC-98 is like a derivative work to Windows Canon.

Keyword is "like". They were never stated to be non-canon in itself. I think the batman example is faulty given how DC itself is a mess of what is canon or not (that's why it needs a cosmology revision in the first place) though can you show where they are said to be derivative works, however not like it would matter much since that would be explicit towards them being non-canon.

Heck, as ZUN acknowledges in the very quote you posted regarding them having the same world, there are contradictions between the storylines.

There are small contradictions, nothing major that "retcons" the existence of the previous era, hence why ZUN stated in the bits of dialogue within the first IN Afterword quote: "It [referring to the plot of the new game] will not inherit much from the previous games, it'll be like visiting a new world."
Which is why I said in the op, we don't consider PoFV non-canon to IN because zun made a similar transition like he did from MS to EoSD. Zun himself still regards them as main touhou games that follow an order of events, like here when he said it's still the 6th game of the entire series.

Chalking it up to Reimu actually straight up forgetting is incredibly suspect, especially given Alice's previous interactions with her and the fact Reimu is far more likely to have forgotten numerous other characters, which she doesn't.

Just wanted to quickly note, she does the same to alice, in MS for her extra scenario so it is really just her personality. But I actually am going to deviate from the alice example since ZUN said in her Strange Creator of Outer World comment it was a joke.

Reimu was lacking training in PC-98 (something that mentioned multiple times in PC-98 games) while in Windows she seems to had finish her training as a shrine maiden

Well yes, it's a reimu thing to "not train" and yeah I think they were said in the omake txt profiles for reimu which I think is weirdly consistent with what she does in windows, she relies off her natural talent and spiritual prowess, and the only way marisa keeps up is immense training. But she was always a shrine maiden if that's what you're saying.

we shouldn't forget how Reimu was unable to fly by herself in PC-98 era where in Windows era, flying become a main ability for her, along side other shrine maiden abilites that she lack in PC-98 era

The flying part is a plot element that was never covered, and honestly could've just been achieved through her luck, which is likely considering how her life is considered similar to a hermit "going along with the flow of life".

Even if makai creation get accelted as L2-C, I don't think they should have thier meged as Reimu and Marisa had early get a noticeable progress in the gap between the eras

I think that's why it should be merged though, if the training they did collectively is apart of the time they spend fighting others and training it would still be their overall strength, so it seems odd to keep it separate since the keys don't offer much differences from each other in the first place besides a slight tier change.

Also since the PC-98 will become completly cannon to Windows, shouldn't PC-98 era yokais and demons (demons are type of yokai in touhou right?) get Low godly regen and resistance to mind manipulation? And Shinki get the abilites of gods and Primordial form key?

Yes they should. As for shinki it troubles me a bit, she was never shown to be an actual God in regards to embodying something, so to me the whole "God" thing is simply a status in abbreviation to being above everything she created in Makai.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Keyword is "like". They were never stated to be non-canon in itself. I think the batman example is faulty given how DC itself is a mess of what is canon or not (that's why it needs a cosmology revision in the first place) though can you show where they are said to be derivative works, however not like it would matter much since that would be explicit towards them being non-canon.

That's not really a DC exclusive thing, I could say the same thing about roughly every other non-canon movie adaptation of a comic/manga.

The point is that none of the things you bring up point towards them being canon. It's normal for derivative works to have the same characters, worlds, backstories etc. yet not be canon, which is basically what ZUN meant to say there.

The "like" is because it isn't a derivative work in common sense. It is the predecessor, after all, so it isn't derived from the windows canon. But, as ZUN says, it's to be ignored for the windows canon in just the same way as such a derivative work would be.

There are small contradictions, nothing major that "retcons" the existence of the previous era, hence why ZUN stated in the bits of dialogue within the first IN Afterword quote: "It [referring to the plot of the new game] will not inherit much from the previous games, it'll be like visiting a new world."
Which is why I said in the op, we don't consider PoFV non-canon to IN because zun made a similar transition like he did from MS to EoSD. Zun himself still regards them as main touhou games that follow an order of events, like here when he said it's still the 6th game of the entire series.

Together with the other evidence, I think the contradictions do matter. They matter enough that you would need an actual statement of them being canon to each other.

We don't consider PoFV non-canon to IN because it neither has the plot inconsistencies nor has it the statements that indicate it being non-canon to it. All that was said regarding it was that the author made some changes in regards to scale.

It being considered the 6th game doesn't matter. A game series can have multiple games that are not canon to each other.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

The point is that none of the things you bring up point towards them being canon. It's normal for derivative works to have the same characters, worlds, backstories etc. yet not be canon, which is basically what ZUN meant to say there.

The "like" is because it isn't a derivative work in common sense. It is the predecessor, after all, so it isn't derived from the windows canon. But, as ZUN says, it's to be ignored for the windows canon in just the same way as such a derivative work would be.

And there would need to be proof that it is explicitly non-canon, the points were meant to cumulatively create a foundation for the PC-98 setting to still exists in Windows, thereby making the games and stories existent to one another.

This ties in to the link I sent in my previous post for SCoOW actually, we can ignore it because it doesn't bring relevance to the plot of the new games within the windows era, due to the fact zun changed it up in regards to fights (like spellcard rules) jokes (different satire in comparison to 1-5) music, and a "western" like representative to EoSD. Since it would likely be the first touhou game Window's users would experience.

Together with the other evidence, I think the contradictions do matter. They matter enough that you would need an actual statement of them being canon to each other.

And may I have an example of such a contradiction, because small things like "reimu not being able to fly" or other character not reappearing in recent works, are not validated enough to deem it irrelevant.

We don't consider PoFV non-canon to IN because it neither has the plot inconsistencies nor has it the statements that indicate it being non-canon to it. All that was said regarding it was that the author made some changes in regards to scale.

The same scale MS - EoSD had, which was the main argument, a clean sweep never referenced a retcon, at all. Just a new style of playing, and theme.

It being considered the 6th game doesn't matter. A game series can have multiple games that are not canon to each other.

But it does. It means that chronologically, those other events did take place, simply they shouldn't hold much weight to new material.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And may I have an example of such a contradiction, because small things like "reimu not being able to fly" or other character not reappearing in recent works, are not validated enough to deem it irrelevant.

Alice is one of Shinki's creations in PC-98, but a human who became a magician in Windows. Windows Marisa started using star based magic after 2001 (4 or 5 years prior to chapter 22 of CoLA, which was released in 2006) but was stated to use star based magic in Story of Eastern Wonderland (1997). Yuuka lives in Mugenkan in PC-98, but lives in The Garden of the Sun in Windows. There are probably other examples, but these are the most clear cut ones.

Also, while I agree that PC-98 is canon to Touhou as a whole, I think this wiki should still keep them separate since the only direct connections between the two eras can basically be reduced to nothing more than shoutouts. Although the explanation for the split on the verse page should probably updated to explain that PC-98 is still canon, but is being kept separate due to a lack of direct connections or scaling to Windows as well as a handful of contradictions (the page currently states that PC-98's canonicity is questionable, which obviously isn't true).

 

[Mobi2]

Alice is one of Shinki's creations in PC-98, but a human who became a magician in Windows. Windows Marisa started using star based magic after 2001 (4 or 5 years prior to chapter 22 of CoLA, which was released in 2006) but was stated to use star based magic in Story of Eastern Wonderland (1997). Yuuka lives in Mugenkan in PC-98, but lives in The Garden of the Sun in Windows. There are probably other examples, but these are the most clear cut ones.

Also, while I agree that PC-98 is canon to Touhou as a whole, I think this wiki should still keep them separate since the only direct connections between the two eras can basically be reduced to nothing more than shoutouts. Although the explanation for the split on the verse page should probably updated to explain that PC-98 is still canon, but is being kept separate due to a lack of direct connections or scaling to Windows as well as a handful of contradictions (the page currently states that PC-98's canonicity is questionable, which obviously isn't true).

Uh I hate to tell you that nothing points at Shinki creating Alice. The only thing got remotely close to that was Shinki saying Yumeko was one of her creations and that she made Makai.

 

[Mobi2]

Also Yuuka doesn't even reside in the Garden of the Sun her PMiSS page just mentioned a dude running into her there. The Garden of the Sun is just a place where people run into her.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Uh I hate to tell you that nothing points at Shinki creating Alice. The only thing got remotely close to that was Shinki saying Yumeko was one of her creations and that she made Makai.

Actually, Shinki says she created "everything" in Makai, so that would probably include it's residents.

 

[Mobi2]

Actually, Shinki says she created "everything" in Makai, so that would probably include it's residents.

I see your point. Alice was just called "Girl of Death" instead of outright having "Makai" titles (though the Mai and Yuki have magician titles). There was also the miasma in Makai in windows that was good for humans to train in magic, so Alice could've just been a resident there for learning magic in the first place. There's also Reimu straight-up stating that she's been to Makai before which only happened in PC-98. We don't even know what species Shinki is limited to creating in the first place anyway. Then there's the statement from ZUN in SCoOW where he brought back Alice from PC-98.

So like there's two interpretations

1) Alice is a human that moved to Makai for a bit due to the miasma so she can improve on her magic (she was constantly boasting about using strong magic). Humans going to Makai isn't that insane either because Sakuya knows about Makai before it was reintroduced to us again in UFO

2) Shinki can create humans (wouldn't even be that much of a big deal because we don't even know what species Yumeko is)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There was also the miasma in Makai in windows that was good for humans to train in magic, so Alice could've just been a resident there for learning magic in the first place. There's also Reimu straight-up stating that she's been to Makai before which only happened in PC-98.

I don't really see how Windows Makai is really relevant here, the two locations are different enough that even if you connected the two eras, information about one wouldn't necessarily apply to the other. Windows Makai is a hellish wasteland that is actively hostile to life, while PC-98 Makai isn't (I'm aware of the idea that the fight between Shinki and the protagonist somehow destroyed Makai but the evidence for that is literally just a screen transition). Also, PC-98 Makai is huge, but finite (at least according to this wiki), while Murasa states that Windows Makai is infinite, so whatever happened to Makai in between PC-98 and Windows would've also had to somehow infinitely expand the size of the realm. Also, both things that make Windows Makai so good for training (the miasma that strengthens magic and the abundance of magic materials) aren't stated to exist in PC-98 Makai. Finally, Reimu never states that she's visited Makai before in UFO, she simply says she knows about it.

I'm not saying PC-98 and Windows Makai are totally different locations, but you'd have to make a ton of assumptions to assume otherwise. I actually really like the theory that something happened between MS and UFO that led to Makai's current ****** up state, but unfortunately it'll probably always be just a theory.

1) Alice is a human that moved to Makai for a bit due to the miasma so she can improve on her magic (she was constantly boasting about using strong magic). Humans going to Makai isn't that insane either because Sakuya knows about Makai before it was reintroduced to us again in UFO

2) Shinki can create humans (wouldn't even be that much of a big deal because we don't even know what species Yumeko is)

PC-98 Alice almost definitely isn't human, as she's considered a witch in the same sense that Yuki and Mai are.

And the way she talks to actual humans also suggests she isn't human.

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andykhang @Jiangshi1 @Theglassman12 @Megamangohan @Junkoposter @Not_Icarus @Sans2345 @CrimsonStarFallen @OnsokunoSonic @Guardian_Doge @FujiwaraYesMokou @Ryukama @The_real_cal_howard @Mariogoods @GokuBlacksolosyourverse @LuckyEmile @Ciruno_Fortes @Udlmaster

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'm sorry, but I'm not knowledgeable on PC-98 Era, I can't give any input for this.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Alice is one of Shinki's creations in PC-98, but a human who became a magician in Windows.

Being the creation of someone in touhou doesn’t inherently mean beings youkai, remember yumeko was also not a youkai and yet was a creation of shinki. Alice also maintains her same style of fighting, (using mostly dolls and leaving herself vulnerable.), let’s also not forget that there was the magician race in makai (Mai) but alice was never hinted at being one, simple a girl who can use magic.

Windows Marisa started using star based magic after 2001 (4 or 5 years prior to chapter 22 of CoLA, which was released in 2006) but was stated to use star based magic in Story of Eastern Wonderland (1997).

Definitely plot based element. Reimu started flying during EoSD but couldn’t in pc-98 games.
The yuuka one is a no since the garden is her main place of activity, not her place of residence.

Also, while I agree that PC-98 is canon to Touhou as a whole, I think this wiki should still keep them separate since the only direct connections between the two eras can basically be reduced to nothing more than shoutouts. Although the explanation for the split on the verse page should probably updated to explain that PC-98 is still canon

Could you elaborate some more on this actually? For example how would you consider making it explain in the verse page.

 

[Mobi2]

I don't really see how Windows Makai is really relevant here, the two locations are different enough that even if you connected the two eras, information about one wouldn't necessarily apply to the other. Windows Makai is a hellish wasteland that is actively hostile to life, while PC-98 Makai isn't (I'm aware of the idea that the fight between Shinki and the protagonist somehow destroyed Makai but the evidence for that is literally just a screen transition). Also, PC-98 Makai is huge, but finite (at least according to this wiki), while Murasa states that Windows Makai is infinite, so whatever happened to Makai in between PC-98 and Windows would've also had to somehow infinitely expand the size of the realm. Also, both things that make Windows Makai so good for training (the miasma that strengthens magic and the abundance of magic materials) aren't stated to exist in PC-98 Makai. Finally, Reimu never states that she's visited Makai before in UFO, she simply says she knows about it.

I'm not saying PC-98 and Windows Makai are totally different locations, but you'd have to make a ton of assumptions to assume otherwise. I actually really like the theory that something happened between MS and UFO that led to Makai's current ****** up state, but unfortunately it'll probably always be just a theory.

PC-98 Alice almost definitely isn't human, as she's considered a witch in the same sense that Yuki and Mai are.

And the way she talks to actual humans also suggests she isn't human.

It could've just been infinite from the start though as that is the only comment that we have about its size. Makai was not destroyed the screen just flashed red that was about it and the MS fiasco wasn't serious enough to warrant that (It started because of some vacation company in Makai lol). The comment about the Miasma being from the windows era isn't a contradiction it's just a new piece of lore at that point. Plus the area of Makai that they go to in UFO is stated to be "in a corner" so its new location/appearance isn't an issue because all we really go to is the area above Hokkai. Alice being a Youkai at the time isn't an issue either I'm aware of her becoming a Youkai is recent but that could just be recent in relative terms. the difference in date between MS and PCB is 5-6 years so in relative terms that is pretty recent. Yes you're right about Reimu saying that she knows about Makai (Haven't played UFO in a bit) however where else would she have gotten her knowledge from besides visiting it multiple times which she has in PC-98.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Being the creation of someone in touhou doesn’t inherently mean beings youkai, remember yumeko was also not a youkai and yet was a creation of shinki. Alice also maintains her same style of fighting, (using mostly dolls and leaving herself vulnerable.), let’s also not forget that there was the magician race in makai (Mai) but alice was never hinted at being one, simple a girl who can use magic.

This doesn't really disprove my point though. All I was trying to do was point out how Alice's origins differ between PC-98 and Windows. Being a creation of Shinki, as well as the fact that it's heavily implied she isn't a human in PC-98, directly contradicts the fact that she was originally a human who became a magician in Windows.

Definitely plot based element. Reimu started flying during EoSD but couldn’t in pc-98 games.
The yuuka one is a no since the garden is her main place of activity, not her place of residence.

It's not really the same thing since Reimu could've easily learned to fly prior to EoSD, and there are no statements we can use that would tell us how or when she got those powers in the first place. But for Marisa, we have direct statements that her star based magic was inspired by a meteor shower at Kourindou in 2001, while PC-98 Marisa was using the same kind of magic in 1997, which is a clear contradiction. It's not like Reimu's case where she could've easily acquired her abilities in the gap between MS and EoSD, since Marisa would've had to either 1. completely forget how to use star based attacks, and then relearn them later on, or 2. travel back in time for there to not be a contradiction here.
I agree with you on Yuuka though, I was misinformed on that.

Could you elaborate some more on this actually? For example how would you consider making it explain in the verse page.

Idk, maybe something like 'While the characters and events of the PC-98 games are confirmed to exist in the Windows era, they are separated due to a lack of direct connections and several inconsistencies between the two eras.'

 

[Antvasima]

As ZUN said, PC-98 is like a derivative work to Windows Canon.
It's like Batman movies are derivative works to Batman Comics. Sure, both share characters, Batman in the movies might already know Joker from some prior case, Batman might have the usual backstory and they take place in the same world (In the sense that both have Gotham etc.), but they are still not canon to each other.
Heck, as ZUN acknowledges in the very quote you posted regarding them having the same world, there are contradictions between the storylines.

That's not really a DC exclusive thing, I could say the same thing about roughly every other non-canon movie adaptation of a comic/manga.

The point is that none of the things you bring up point towards them being canon. It's normal for derivative works to have the same characters, worlds, backstories etc. yet not be canon, which is basically what ZUN meant to say there.

The "like" is because it isn't a derivative work in common sense. It is the predecessor, after all, so it isn't derived from the windows canon. But, as ZUN says, it's to be ignored for the windows canon in just the same way as such a derivative work would be.


Together with the other evidence, I think the contradictions do matter. They matter enough that you would need an actual statement of them being canon to each other.

We don't consider PoFV non-canon to IN because it neither has the plot inconsistencies nor has it the statements that indicate it being non-canon to it. All that was said regarding it was that the author made some changes in regards to scale.

It being considered the 6th game doesn't matter. A game series can have multiple games that are not canon to each other.

DontTalk seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out, and sorry about not noticing that you replied earlier.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

This doesn't really disprove my point though. All I was trying to do was point out how Alice's origins differ between PC-98 and Windows. Being a creation of Shinki, as well as the fact that it's heavily implied she isn't a human in PC-98, directly contradicts the fact that she was originally a human who became a magician in Windows.

Well that's the thing, the only origin she has is from pc-98, like I stated in the op, ZUN didn't really create a backstory for the Windows canon. And things can be implied but doesn't necessarily mean they are true. Like marisa is also a human who can use magic, but never turns into a youkai magician, which in turn would be like alice's case.

But for Marisa, we have direct statements that her star based magic was inspired by a meteor shower at Kourindou in 2001, while PC-98 Marisa was using the same kind of magic in 1997, which is a clear contradiction. It's not like Reimu's case where she could've easily acquired her abilities in the gap between MS and EoSD, since Marisa would've had to either 1. completely forget how to use star based attacks, and then relearn them later on, or 2. travel back in time for there to not be a contradiction here.

For pc-98 is this what You're referring to? (Her PoDD profile)

The unstoppable magician that longs for Mima and calls her "Mima-sama" (Which part of her is unstoppable, don't ask.)

She's quite an ordinary human girl, who can just control some devastating magic.

Idk, maybe something like 'While the characters and events of the PC-98 games are confirmed to exist in the Windows era, they are separated due to a lack of direct connections and several inconsistencies between the two eras.'

This seems fine actually, I can make a new proposition for keeping the keys separated, but making pc-98 fully canon.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It could've just been infinite from the start though as that is the only comment that we have about its size. Makai was not destroyed the screen just flashed red that was about it and the MS fiasco wasn't serious enough to warrant that (It started because of some vacation company in Makai lol). The comment about the Miasma being from the windows era isn't a contradiction it's just a new piece of lore at that point. Plus the area of Makai that they go to in UFO is stated to be "in a corner" so its new location/appearance isn't an issue because all we really go to is the area above Hokkai. Alice being a Youkai at the time isn't an issue either I'm aware of her becoming a Youkai is recent but that could just be recent in relative terms. the difference in date between MS and PCB is 5-6 years so in relative terms that is pretty recent. Yes you're right about Reimu saying that she knows about Makai (Haven't played UFO in a bit) however where else would she have gotten her knowledge from besides visiting it multiple times which she has in PC-98.

That's kind of my issue though. You're just assuming everything we learn about Makai retroactively applies to PC-98 without anything to back it up. If the miasma has always been present, why does nobody mention it? Why is everyone there seemingly unaffected by something that makes Windows Makai virtually uninhabitable? If Alice was a human who became a youkai even in PC-98, then does that mean Shinki created her as a human and then she decided to become a magician?

None of these things are inherently wrong since there's nothing to outright debunk them, but in the context of the PC-98 games by themselves, there's no evidence for them.

Also I absolutely agree with you about Makai's destruction being bullshit, I don't know what I said to make you think otherwise.

Yes you're right about Reimu saying that she knows about Makai (Haven't played UFO in a bit) however where else would she have gotten her knowledge from besides visiting it multiple times which she has in PC-98.

Sakuya also knows about Makai but has never visited it, which I'm pretty sure is something you originally brought up. Reimu probably got her knowledge of it from the same place she did.

 

[Mobi2]

That's kind of my issue though. You're just assuming everything we learn about Makai retroactively applies to PC-98 without anything to back it up. If the miasma has always been present, why does nobody mention it? Why is everyone there seemingly unaffected by something that makes Windows Makai virtually uninhabitable? If Alice was a human who became a youkai even in PC-98, then does that mean Shinki created her as a human and then she decided to become a magician?

None of these things are inherently wrong since there's nothing to outright debunk them, but in the context of the PC-98 games by themselves, there's no evidence for them.

Also I absolutely agree with you about Makai's destruction being bullshit, I don't know what I said to make you think otherwise.

Sakuya also knows about Makai but has never visited it, which I'm pretty sure is something you originally brought up. Reimu probably got her knowledge of it from the same place she did.

As you said nothing inherently debunks them. That's my interpretation of the canon of the series ZUN even admits not to putting much thought into the first 5 games so those points raised up in the windows era are just him expanding the setting. The makai being destroyed point was brought up by you earlier saying that you're aware of the interpretation that it was destroyed I just cosigned on the opinion that it wasn't. As for Sakuya we don't know what source she got it from but with Reimu we have her going to Makai previously. Also I would give scans but I don't know why some of the image links I'm using isn't working.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well that's the thing, the only origin she has is from pc-98, like I stated in the op, ZUN didn't really create a backstory for the Windows canon. And things can be implied but doesn't necessarily mean they are true. Like marisa is also a human who can use magic, but never turns into a youkai magician, which in turn would be like alice's case.

She does have an origin in Windows though, she was originally a human who later became a magician. Sure, it's incredibly vague but that's a universal constant with Touhou backstories. Also, if Alice was a human in PC-98, her line to Marisa in the extra stage would make zero sense. Using magic that she claims humans and then using it anyways despite being human would kinda make her look like a complete dumbass who doesn't know what she's talking about.

For pc-98 is this what You're referring to? (Her PoDD profile)

No, I was talking about her boss fight in SoEW and the omake.txt, both of which show or mention her using stars in her attacks. Marisa using magic in PC-98 isn't inherently contradictory, the issue is that the specific kind of magic she uses is something she couldn't have possibly learned at that point if we're going by the Windows timeline.

This seems fine actually, I can make a new proposition for keeping the keys separated, but making pc-98 fully canon.

Sounds good, that's exactly what I was arguing for from the start.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As you said nothing inherently debunks them. That's my interpretation of the canon of the series ZUN even admits not to putting much thought into the first 5 games so those points raised up in the windows era are just him expanding the setting. The makai being destroyed point was brought up by you earlier saying that you're aware of the interpretation that it was destroyed I just cosigned on the opinion that it wasn't. As for Sakuya we don't know what source she got it from but with Reimu we have her going to Makai previously. Also I would give scans but I don't know why some of the image links I'm using isn't working.

I was never really trying to debunk them, I just don't think they can be used as evidence for connecting PC-98 and Windows. I can't prove that those statements are wrong, but I don't think they can be proven right either.

Also, Reimu merely mentions that she knows of Makai, she never says she visited it in UFO. Sakuya is proof that characters can know what Makai is without actually going there themselves.

 

[Mobi2]

I was never really trying to debunk them, I just don't think they can be used as evidence for connecting PC-98 and Windows. I can't prove that those statements are wrong, but I don't think they can be proven right either.

Also, Reimu merely mentions that she knows of Makai, she never says she visited it in UFO. Sakuya is proof that characters can know what Makai is without actually going there themselves.

My issue with the dismissal of the statements is that we never see any of the characters that has been to makai just outright going "oh hey what's makai?" and the fact that it's an established place in the series. The of the matter is that they recognize the place. That's where my contention lies.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Anyway for the new proposition:

It should be fine to apply what Fujiwara was arguing. The PC-98 setting and events do exists but in terms of consistency and scaling refer to mostly windows. I think if information that were stated to be in pc-98 also are implied in Windows, those would be okay to use. In that case the yuuka example is the best one I can give. To add onto it to make it a bit more solid. She states she pretty much knows Reimu and Marisa prior to PoFV events, marisa noticeably works better as Marisa is young contextually in LLS.

For a new thing on the verse page to make that more descriptive:
"The events of PC-98 and Windows both exists in the same canon, however due to a few plot inconsistencies, and lack of evidence for direct connection, keys will remain separated to avoid major confusion. However if information from the PC-98 is to be used, it will also need to have similar information stated in Windows."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

My issue with the dismissal of the statements is that we never see any of the characters that has been to makai just outright going "oh hey what's makai?" and the fact that it's an established place in the series. The of the matter is that they recognize the place. That's where my contention lies.

Windows Makai has a reputation for being worse than hell and being a good place to train and study magic. Those things alone would make it recognizable to people who've never gone there, such as Sakuya. Also, just because a character doesn't ask what about a location doesn't mean they've physically been there.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway for the new proposition:

It should be fine to apply what Fujiwara was arguing. The PC-98 setting and events do exists but in terms of consistency and scaling refer to mostly windows. I think if information that were stated to be in pc-98 also are implied in Windows, those would be okay to use. In that case the yuuka example is the best one I can give. To add onto it to make it a bit more solid. She states she pretty much knows Reimu and Marisa prior to PoFV events, marisa noticeably works better as Marisa is young contextually in LLS.

For a new thing on the verse page to make that more descriptive:
"The events of PC-98 and Windows both exists in the same canon, however due to a few plot inconsistencies, and lack of evidence for direct connection, keys will remain separated to avoid major confusion. However if information from the PC-98 is to be used, it will also need to have similar information stated in Windows."

Perfect, I agree with everything.

Can't wait for CDS to bring Mima back and make this whole thread outdated