Touhou downgrade thread

[Malomtek]

Also if the statement from Yachie was this one, I see literally no reason to go against hell being infinite, three statements you need to disprove, saying "unreliable character xd" or "Hyperbolic WoG statement despite there being no implication of it" are not refutes, so please don't treat them as one.

Except Yachie is unreliable, being a known liar and manipulator, and ZUN more than likely was speaking hyperbolically, otherwise he would speak with a bit more precision on how hell functions. It's just the facts.

So yes, when a realm is created it is in fact equal to the said original thing present in reality.

Creating some dream fakes that Doremy herself said that to call "real" would be "misstating things" doesn't prove that the representation of something in a dream has necessarily the same extent of its original in reality.

As for the "dreams are the same as reality"/"dreams and reality are two aspects of the same coin" mumbo jumbo, it still doesn't prove that the representation of something in a dream has necessarily the same extent of its original in reality. How dreams and reality are possibly connected on a more fundamental level has nothing to do with the size of dream world simulacrums of objects. I reference again the "real would be misstating things" quote by Doremy.

Continuing with the thread.
Another reason we can consider beings like lunarians and the interpretation of High 3-A, Low 2-C consistent is the occult ball made by sagume, was said to have infinite power flowing out like a white hole

Or it could be more comparable to the Android power reactors in DBZ, where its a constant source of energy, not that infinite energy can be generated at once from an Occult Ball.

People like Eirin scale, kaguya would also scale, Sumireko utilized these which would've broken the hakurei barrier which extends infinitely for the record.

A barrier's spatial extent has nothing whatsoever to do with its strength.

An attack from youmu by borrowing power from the moon can extend infinitely in width

So it has weird spatial extension properties. That doesn't somehow mean the attack has infinite power.

So it's like I said before. Touhou and its supporters tend to use the term "infinity" very glibly, to "pump up" feats in ways that fall apart if you look at them with just a bit more scrutiny that usual.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Since I had trouble sleeping, I'll reply.

Except Yachie is unreliable, being a known liar and manipulator

She's also literally one of the leaders of the four most important organizations of the animal realm. Which is apart of hell, there would functionally be no reason for her to lie about the size of the place, when it is also boosted by a direct WoG statement. What you're proposing is not how inconsistency works.

and ZUN more than likely was speaking hyperbolically, otherwise he would speak with a bit more precision on how hell functions. It's just the facts.

Again, you would have to disprove the other two statements by showing direct confrontation of hell being said to be finite in the material, otherwise your headcanon of zun speaking hyperbolically is moot.
"It's just the facts"
It's not just the facts, it's context you're attempting to severely apply defamation on because of your innate bias against touhou's tiers here.

Creating some dream fakes that Doremy herself said that to call "real" would be "misstating things" doesn't prove that the representation of something in a dream has necessarily the same extent of its original in reality.

Doremy saying "real would be misstating things" was referring to how it didn't explicitly take place in the human world, it took place in the dream world in an exact copy of the world where the boundary of dreams and reality were blurred by yukari so the battle between the three sumireko's could happen.

As for the "dreams are the same as reality"/"dreams and reality are two aspects of the same coin" mumbo jumbo, it still doesn't prove that the representation of something in a dream has necessarily the same extent of its original in reality. How dreams and reality are possibly connected on a more fundamental level has nothing to do with the size of dream world simulacrums of objects.

Funny you say they aren't connected on a fundamental level when Doremy's profile omake.txt directly states it

The images I posted were more than enough evidence, but if it's not enough:
Dreams can identifiably be used as attacks that can hurt people. Proving they are in fact reality.

Let's also not forget doremy makes dreams and attacks you with them

As well as her MECHA sheep attack, which utilizes this concept introduced in touhou:

Or it could be more comparable to the Android power reactors in DBZ, where its a constant source of energy, not that infinite energy can be generated at once from an Occult Ball.

The text says "infinite power flowing out of it" not "infinite power can be generated"
For translation to show it's a consistency:
月の都のオカルトボールな
あれはおかしいな
まるでホワイトホールのように
オカルトパワーがわき出ている
まさに無限だ

(The last three lines):
It's like a white hole
Occult power is gushing out
infinite, surely.
Contextually: "Infinite Occult power is gushing out."

So it has weird spatial extension properties. That doesn't somehow mean the attack has infinite power.

.....
It can extend infinitely by using power from the moon.
It is by definition using power, to cover an area which qualifies as high 3-A/low 2-C. Even if it was just range, hermits scale to youmu, as well as other top tiers scaling above youmu. For all intents and purposes they can cover High 3-A/ Low 2-C ranges with power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Disagree with downgrade via OnSonics and Doge's reasons.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

As for the "Eternal = infinite time not infinite space"
The scan also said eternal nothingness, it uses both a measure of space and time.
And well time cannot exist without space in touhou, vice versa, both are inter-correlated and inseparable:

Supported by:

So another point debunked.

Now I'm definitely sleeping.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Yeah, they have enough scans for a lot of this stuff. I kind of wish they were shown earlier before I made a fool of myself, but oh well.

Disagree for Doge's reasons.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I disagree with the downgrade as well

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Promestein @LuckyEmile @Junkoposter @Udlmaster @Uninown @Andykhang @Jiangshi1 @Theglassman12 @Megamangohan @Junkoposter @Not_Icarus @Sans2345 @CrimsonStarFallen @The_real_cal_howard @Mariogoods @GokuBlacksolosyourverse

What do you think about this suggested revision?

 

[Udlmaster]

I firmly disagree with any downgrade who's foundational remark is "It sounds like Flowery Language". This is an unfalsifiable claim and is completely pointless to make.

When it comes a series like Touhou where it has little written content, demanding more context when there isn't any is rather redundant, and therefore, we must make do with what we have, and what we have aligns with the Current tiers.

I plant myself firmly in opposition for now, the reasoning is extremely weak.

As for those debating, I wouldn't bother really. What is his foundation in reality? "I think all Infinite statements are hyperbolic." and reading the comments after, "ZUN was likely hyperbolic" assuming further hyperboles because that's his preconception.

He doesn't have a real stance, it's just a "No" argument, and you won't really get very far with it.

 

[Delta333]

Disagree too

 

[Catzlaflame]

Disagree for the same reasoning as uld, the op’s entire argument is, in a nutshell,
“it’s hyperbolic so no”

Copying and pasting the below from a previous thread, with one contextualizing edit for the first sentence.

I don't agree with [saying that Eirin's spell card is able to contain "infinite" mass]. I don't even agree that Touhou should even be ranked as high as it is right now.

Touhou supporters, like the series itself, tend to use the term "infinite" very glibly. In a series as infamous for its hyperbolic and flowery language usage as Touhou is, we would need more proof for a universal power level than "oh but this character says such as such a thing is 'infinite' or whatever".

Even the "infinite corridor composed of spacetime" stuff reeks of hyperbole taken way too seriously. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for its "infinity" beyond a character statement and some circular reasoning done to justify that character statement.

Actually provide scans of anti feats and inconsistencies instead of just stating someone’s argument is based on circular reasoning

People are essentially stating as fact that Kaguya created an infinite universe hidden inside the Eientei estate, which is kind of an extraordinary claim that requires some pretty hard-hitting evidence, not just one-note character lines. There's also the fact that even if Kaguya were to have created an "infinite corridor composed of spacetime",

Why would it be extraordinary, logically you should always assume the positive on a feat/statement, until it’s proven otherwise. Being hyperbolic is ofc a valid contradiction, but again “there’s not enough proof” doesn’t prove its hyperbolic, and dodge and onu literally refuted every claim with actual scans.

then it looks more like spacetime hax than anything that solidly translates to attack power.

She’s creating it right? Energy required to create something translates to AP

And believe me, nothing in Touhou whatsoever suggests some kind of universal power for Gensokyo residents, not even the weird "heaven-breaking" feat people claim for Suika. Characters aren't shaking the planet when they fight.

literally 0 anti-feats In the OP, no inconsistencies are mentioned either with exactly 0 scans to.

They don't generate universal shockwaves in their danmaku battles. They aren't powering up and having that power felt across all of space. They generally just seem to top at a stellar level in realistic terms.

AOE fallacy

If we're going to just take hyperbole and flowery language seriously,

No we don’t take them seriously, your “argument” just isn’t proving it is

 

[Antvasima]

So should I close this thread then?

 

[Malomtek]

It's time for me to tap into more of my full power.

KAIO-KEN x 3 GOOOOOOOOO!

She's also literally one of the leaders of the four most important organizations of the animal realm. Which is apart of hell, there would functionally be no reason for her to lie about the size of the place, when it is also boosted by a direct WoG statement. What you're proposing is not how inconsistency works.

That gives her even more reason to lie about the place, as she can use her privileged knowledge about the area to twist or omit some facts and combine them with lies in order to manipulate the protagonists.

Because she's a manipulator.

I already dealt with the "direct WoG" statement. Let's move on from that.

"It's just the facts"
It's not just the facts, it's context you're attempting to severely apply defamation on because of your innate bias against touhou's tiers here.

Lame attempt to appeal to motive against me. I have no "innate bias" against Touhou's tiers, I just know and recognize that they're not accurate. But attempts to attack, impugn, or even defame my debating character do show one thing in particular: increasing desperation.

Doremy saying "real would be misstating things" was referring to how it didn't explicitly take place in the human world, it took place in the dream world in an exact copy of the world where the boundary of dreams and reality were blurred by yukari so the battle between the three sumireko's could happen.

Or maybe they just weren't "real" in any conventional or meaningful sense.

And if that took place in a realm within the dream world where the line between dreams and reality are blurred, then how does that apply to the entirety of the dream world to begin with?

Funny you say they aren't connected on a fundamental level when Doremy's profile omake.txt directly states it

"The dreams of all things are connected at the deepest level" isn't the same as "dreams and reality are one and the same"

If this is the kind of reading comprehension failure that allowed Touhou to be ranked at universal level, then it's clear that I might need to go to an even further level.

The images I posted were more than enough evidence, but if it's not enough:
Dreams can identifiably be used as attacks that can hurt people. Proving they are in fact reality.

You mean by a youkai who's famous for being able to manipulate the borders between opposing concepts? That doesn't prove anything.

Let's also not forget doremy makes dreams and attacks you with them

Being able to brings parts of dreams into reality doesn't prove that dreams are directly equivalent to reality in Touhou.

As well as her MECHA sheep attack, which utilizes this concept introduced in touhou:

I'm not seeing anything related to a "MECHA sheep attack", rather some gobbledygook about the "true nature of the TORIFUNE satellite" (a far cry from "MECHA sheep"), and something something about dreams.

.....
It can extend infinitely by using power from the moon.
It is by definition using power, to cover an area which qualifies as high 3-A/low 2-C. Even if it was just range, hermits scale to youmu, as well as other top tiers scaling above youmu. For all intents and purposes they can cover High 3-A/ Low 2-C ranges with power.

It's using weird esoteric moon magic to do some large spatial cutting. If it was just power in general, then why does it need the moon specifically for this attack? After all, the moon is know for its strange properties in Touhou. It's like saying that so-and-so comic book character sealed up a hole in reality as big as a galaxy with their energy blasts, meaning that they're galaxy level.

It's not that big a deal, and it certainly doesn't prove some universal levels of attack power.

As for the "Eternal = infinite time not infinite space"
The scan also said eternal nothingness, it uses both a measure of space and time.
And well time cannot exist without space in touhou, vice versa, both are inter-correlated and inseparable:

There's this thing about people like you trying to "puff up" things that are really basic in most "vs relevant" fictions as some big thing because your preferred fiction says that same thing but in a more flowery manner.

Space and time being "inter-correlated and inseparable" is literally basic relativity, which I presume most fictions written after 1915 or so follow. It's not special, and doesn't prove anything in particular about a realm's size.

A dimension can have infinite spatial extent while only having 5 seconds worth of temporal extent. A dimension can also be the size of a cardboard box, yet have lasted for innumerable eons.

Just because "space and time are one and the same" doesn't mean that spatial and temporal extents of any given space are interdependent or coterminous with each other.

As for those debating, I wouldn't bother really. What is his foundation in reality? "I think all Infinite statements are hyperbolic." and reading the comments after, "ZUN was likely hyperbolic" assuming further hyperboles because that's his preconception.

He doesn't have a real stance, it's just a "No" argument, and you won't really get very far with it.

These attempts to poison the well against me and shut down the discussion don't bode well for the Touhou side. Like I said: increasing desperation.

Actually provide scans of anti feats and inconsistencies instead of just stating someone’s argument is based on circular reasoning

Here's an example of a low showing (not "anti-feat", I don't know who popularized that term, but he should be shot): Marisa's Mini-Hakkero is supposed to be impressive, universal even, yet on the high end it can only store enough energy to turn a mountain into ash.

And it's like I said earlier: none of the "higher up" gods ever seem to comment on the amazing potentially universe-threatening power of those in Gensokyo. No one in the court of Lord Tsukuyomi or Mahabrahma ever seem to say "gosh, these girls are pretty powerful, better keep a close eye on them". The answer for this is simple: no one in Gensokyo has universal attack power. Such a thing would, indeed, break the setting. This fetish with "scans or it doesn't count" when the basic in-story logic doesn't support universal scaling for Touhou is kind of weird.

Why would it be extraordinary, logically you should always assume the positive on a feat/statement, until it’s proven otherwise. Being hyperbolic is ofc a valid contradiction, but again “there’s not enough proof” doesn’t prove its hyperbolic, and dodge and onu literally refuted every claim with actual scans.

Because it's a complete jump from all the consistent feats we've seen before, which generally restrict themselves to a sub-planetary, maybe stellar level of power.

She’s creating it right? Energy required to create something translates to AP

Not necessarily. It could just be weird hax, like the "infinite/eternal corridor" revolving around Kaguya's ability to "control eternities" or somesuch.

So should I close this thread then?

Wait for me to respond first. At least ask me, the thread creator if I want the thread closed or not (and no, I don't want it closed).

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I'll respond later, about to go to work.

 

[Malomtek]

AOE fallacy

I don't know, I've been told by a mod (specifically, Impress) and several others in another thread that it was stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so (like Dragon Ball's ki control), so I guess "AOE fallacy" doesn't really apply anymore.

 

[Malomtek]

The funny thing is, even if we assumed so-and-so and such-and-such character has this-and-that universal/"infinite" feat, no one would/should scale to them outside explicit statements of comparability or superiority because everyone has to hold back for spell card rules.

Either way, falsehood is destroyed, and sanity is preserved.

Edit: a comment from a friend of mine, who was watching this in private. English is not his first language, so please keep that in mind.

"Anyway, the feat of destroying the physical objects they've shown in touhou doesn't even seem close to galaxy level.

Touhou has decades of history, so I may be wrong, but if what I said is true, it could be quite a problem for high 3-A.

Infinite can be used to mean enormous like omnipotence.

Of course it's hard to judge whether it's actually infinite or figurative.

But I'm sure touho used infinity as a figurative expression.

For example, DBZ is described as a frieza that can destroy the universe, but it is actually a low 4-C.

Frieza didn't actually show it, so it was taken as an exaggeration in this wiki.

Likewise, Touhou's character failed to break even the galaxy of the universe, the most accurate quantifiable space for achievements.
Due to the lack of description, other dimensions of size that they can make or break should not be considered actually infinite."

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Basically most of the arguments against the actual tiering of the characters are just an extreme use of hyperboles to disregard the statements and feats showed without giving a proper support to those claims. So yeah, I disagree with all of this.
And btw:

Wait for me to respond first. At least ask me, the thread creator if I want the thread closed or not (and no, I don't want it closed).

Being the thread starter has no relevance at the moment of arguing or when the conclusion is made. That being said, he doesn't need to ask you if you like to close the thread or not, because now you have the same weight as anyone that wants to give their input on the topic. If everyone is disagreeing with you, then there's no reason to keep a discussion that has essentially ended.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I just saw a person saying stuff about

If the universe was infinite, then Amitabha could not have a size larger than it that is stated to be a size less than infinite (6×10125 yojana tall)

"Umm, if that's the case, Amitabha's height is far greater than the scope of the universe, at least according to the Big Bang Theory."

lol.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I just saw a person saying stuff about

"Umm, if that's the case, Amitabha's height is far greater than the scope of the universe, at least according to the Big Bang Theory."

lol.

I already said my arguments were void and disagreed with the downgrade and asked to not be bothered with. Please, do not bother with me, christ.

Edit: Deleted the two posts of me actually arguing.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I already said my arguments were void and disagreed with the downgrade and asked to not be bothered with. Please, do not bother with me, christ.

You dont want Christ to bother you again? Why?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

That gives her even more reason to lie about the place, as she can use her privileged knowledge about the area to twist or omit some facts and combine them with lies in order to manipulate the protagonists.

No, it doesn't. For what need does she need to lie about the size of a place? This is just dishonesty and a lot of assumptions just to rule out a statement made from a character.

I already dealt with the "direct WoG" statement. Let's move on from that.

You didn't deal with anything. You practically said "Zun is hyperbolic because I said he was" and that's not a refutation. Just show us the scan where hell is finite, instead of twisting others words.

Lame attempt to appeal to motive against me. I have no "innate bias" against Touhou's tiers, I just know and recognize that they're not accurate. But attempts to attack, impugn, or even defame my debating character do show one thing in particular: increasing desperation.

It's just hypocritical to claim I'm defaming your reputation when what you said in the other thread is no different.

I don't even agree that Touhou should even be ranked as high as it is right now.

Touhou supporters, like the series itself, tend to use the term "infinite" very glibly. In a series as infamous for its hyperbolic and flowery language usage as Touhou is, we would need more proof for a universal power level than "oh but this character says such as such a thing is 'infinite' or whatever".

If we're going to just take hyperbole and flowery language seriously, then I guess the floodgates can now be opened not just for, for example, outerversal 2hus, but a lot of other shit that would be considered "wank" just a week ago.

You have extreme implications that the only reason you're doing this revision is because you are so dearly holding onto the subjective thought of touhou supporters being unreliable and the source material being incorrect.

Or maybe they just weren't "real" in any conventional or meaningful sense.

And if that took place in a realm within the dream world where the line between dreams and reality are blurred, then how does that apply to the entirety of the dream world to begin with?

Define meaningful in your context? And it applies because the only reason dreams and reality needed to be blurred was so the other two dream sumireko's can be summoned.

"The dreams of all things are connected at the deepest level" isn't the same as "dreams and reality are one and the same"

If this is the kind of reading comprehension failure that allowed Touhou to be ranked at universal level, then it's clear that I might need to go to an even further level.

It's not failing reading comprehension in the slightest, the dreams of all things are connected at the deepest (most fundamental) levels of reality.
You also never covered the 3 other scans stating reality and dreams are = to each other. If a realm like Heaven was remade in a dream, according to the material (which doesn't contradict my claim for the matter), it would have the same primary and secondary components it would have in "reality".

You mean by a youkai who's famous for being able to manipulate the borders between opposing concepts? That doesn't prove anything.

Oh god, I've been trying to keep myself composed but you can not be this ignorant. You legitimately did not understand my point if that's all you got from it, it was used to support the fact dreams are in fact reality and are able to impose a direct effect on it too. If a dream of Universal+ size were to be hauled at you, in touhou, it would be a universal+ attack.

Being able to brings parts of dreams into reality doesn't prove that dreams are directly equivalent to reality in Touhou.

Then you are just plainly denying my evidence with faulty reasoning to make it seem like you have the upperhand in a debate. But where's your proof? Refutation alone can't win a debate.

Don’t really care about the moon stuff in it’s explicitness, the general point was to make that hermits and top tiers can in fact cover ranges of High 3-A, Low 2-C.

There's this thing about people like you trying to "puff up" things that are really basic in most "vs relevant" fictions as some big thing because your preferred fiction says that same thing but in a more flowery manner.

Here’s the thing about you, you’re claiming I’m “puffing up” statements even though you yourself cannot go into the source material, and grab a scan that says otherwise.

Space and time being "inter-correlated and inseparable" is literally basic relativity, which I presume most fictions written after 1915 or so follow. It's not special, and doesn't prove anything in particular about a realm's size.

Except it does?? It refers to the realm as having an eternal amount of nothingness and is then called infinite, being able to travel eternally in nothingness (which refers to matter and substance, as that is what avici tortures people with, pure boredom) that is an infinite distance being traveled, therefore the realm is infinite in space, given how time cannot be separated from space fundamentally according to WoG, it then qualifies as a space-time continuum.

A dimension can have infinite spatial extent while only having 5 seconds worth of temporal extent. A dimension can also be the size of a cardboard box, yet have lasted for innumerable eons.

Just because "space and time are one and the same" doesn't mean that spatial and temporal extents of any given space are interdependent or coterminous with each other.

Which are both irrelevant pieces of information until you can prove touhou follows what you’re claiming it does.

Burden of proof is on you, it’s been that way this whole thread.
My conclusion like Uld’s is that this debate is nigh-useless because obviously no matter what I put as proof it’s going to be replied against with non-sense. It’s getting very circular on their side too, because I have continuously given proof and explained the context to go along with it. This is my final reply.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, no. @Malomtek please bring scans of the SOURCE MATERIAL that contradicts these consistent claims from the source material, in other words: until you bring enough evidence of your argument from the source material your arguments are full of hot air and you are on a 90° incline for this debate.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

This is my final reply

Honestly, I think that if he brings proper arguments for what he's saying then you would have to answer at least one more time. If not then I think all this discussion can conclude.

 

[Weeeee]

No.

 

[Malomtek]

No, it doesn't. For what need does she need to lie about the size of a place? This is just dishonesty and a lot of assumptions just to rule out a statement made from a character.

In order to manipulate people? Because she's manipulative?

You didn't deal with anything. You practically said "Zun is hyperbolic because I said he was" and that's not a refutation. Just show us the scan where hell is finite, instead of twisting others words.

The way he said that quote made it seem like he wasn't speaking very literally.

It's just hypocritical to claim I'm defaming your reputation when what you said in the other thread is no different.

You have extreme implications that the only reason you're doing this revision is because you are so dearly holding onto the subjective thought of touhou supporters being unreliable and the source material being incorrect.

I didn't say that Touhou supporters as a whole were unreliable, just that they misinterpret hyperbolic "infinity" claims made in the series in a very literal fashion.

Define meaningful in your context? And it applies because the only reason dreams and reality needed to be blurred was so the other two dream sumireko's can be summoned.

If the line between dreams and reality had to be blurred for the two "dream Sumirekos" to appear, then it suggests that purely "dream" don't necessarily have a 1:1 correlation with their counterparts in reality.

It's not failing reading comprehension in the slightest, the dreams of all things are connected at the deepest (most fundamental) levels of reality.
You also never covered the 3 other scans stating reality and dreams are = to each other. If a realm like Heaven was remade in a dream, according to the material (which doesn't contradict my claim for the matter), it would have the same primary and secondary components it would have in "reality".

And what would those "primary and secondary components" be?

Dreams and reality being one and the same at an "essential" level doesn't really mean anything "on the ground".

Oh god, I've been trying to keep myself composed but you can not be this ignorant. You legitimately did not understand my point if that's all you got from it, it was used to support the fact dreams are in fact reality and are able to impose a direct effect on it too. If a dream of Universal+ size were to be hauled at you, in touhou, it would be a universal+ attack.

If you have to bring dreams into reality, then they're not one and the same in the general sense. They are in a high-end metaphysical sense, but not in an effective, "real" sense.

Here’s the thing about you, you’re claiming I’m “puffing up” statements even though you yourself cannot go into the source material, and grab a scan that says otherwise.

Because I'm not "puffing up" anything.

Except it does?? It refers to the realm as having an eternal amount of nothingness and is then called infinite, being able to travel eternally in nothingness (which refers to matter and substance, as that is what avici tortures people with, pure boredom) that is an infinite distance being traveled, therefore the realm is infinite in space, given how time cannot be separated from space fundamentally according to WoG, it then qualifies as a space-time continuum.

"Nothingness refers to matter and substance".

Try proofreading your posts more.

"Eternal amount of nothingness" is just overwritten nonsense that means nothing.

As for the rest, a realm can be finite, yet unbounded, and you can still be able to travel "eternally" within it. The realm can still be eternal (or maybe time loops forever or whatever), so time isn't being separated from space fundamentally.

Which are both irrelevant pieces of information until you can prove touhou follows what you’re claiming it does.

I don't like this "reverse burden of proof" that Touhou fans are trying to put on me? I'm not claiming that Touhou "follows" anything, I'm saying that it is possible for a space to be "eternal" without being infinite and "infinite" without being eternal.

Even if hell actually was infinite, it doesn't mean that it actually scales to anyone in particular. Maybe Hecatia Lapislazuli and a few others, but that's mostly it. It certainly doesn't scale to any Gensokyo resident, otherwise Reimu would have simply destroyed Avici hell or whatever when she got trapped in there. And as we all know: it's stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so (like Dragon Ball's ki control).

 

[Malomtek]

If Gensokyo residents are by and large universal, then why isn't the planet shaking every time they fight? Why don't the roars of the onis reverberate throughout all of space? Why doesn't the moon quiver every time Reimu and a powerful youkai do battle? Why didn't any of the other Celestials come down and smack Tenshi for shaking all of a supposedly infinite heaven? Is Tenshi somehow the strongest deva in Devatown, or is it Lord Mahabrahma? Why doesn't the Dragon constantly piss himself in fear at the potential damage the Sages of Gensokyo can do? Why didn't the Youkai-Lunarian War end in catastrophe for the entire universe?

Again, it's apparently the standard now (according to Impress) that it's stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so. So where's the mechanism for any given Gensokyo resident to control the AoE of their supposedly universal power?

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

If Gensokyo residents are by and large universal, then why isn't the planet shaking every time they fight? Why don't the roars of the onis reverberate throughout all of space? Why doesn't the moon quiver every time Reimu and a powerful youkai do battle? Why didn't any of the other Celestials come down and smack Tenshi for shaking all of a supposedly infinite heaven? Is Tenshi somehow the strongest deva in Devatown, or is it Lord Mahabrahma? Why doesn't the Dragon constantly piss himself in fear at the potential damage the Sages of Gensokyo can do? Why didn't the Youkai-Lunarian War end in catastrophe for the entire universe?

Again, it's apparently the standard now (according to Impress) that it's stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so. So where's the mechanism for any given Gensokyo resident to control the AoE of their supposedly universal power?

Wow, chill down with your DB assumptions, big boy. Not every verse is Dragon Ball Z nor has to follow their principles of showing AP.

For the assumption you have, Gensokyo is a secluded space which is seperated by the Great Hakurei Barrier thanks to Yukari's Boundary Manipulation, while the other realities mentioned in Touhou-verse includes other planes of existence. You know that 'The Moon' we see in the sky we all know is an illusion, a reflection of the Heaven to avoid making humankind of Gensokyo go insane?

You ain't asking the right questions, and you seem like not quite aware of the characters strength and their statements as well.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If Gensokyo residents are by and large universal, then why isn't the planet shaking every time they fight? Why don't the roars of the onis reverberate throughout all of space? Why doesn't the moon quiver every time Reimu and a powerful youkai do battle? Why didn't any of the other Celestials come down and smack Tenshi for shaking all of a supposedly infinite heaven? Is Tenshi somehow the strongest deva in Devatown, or is it Lord Mahabrahma? Why doesn't the Dragon constantly piss himself in fear at the potential damage the Sages of Gensokyo can do? Why didn't the Youkai-Lunarian War end in catastrophe for the entire universe?

Again, it's apparently the standard now (according to Impress) that it's stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so. So where's the mechanism for any given Gensokyo resident to control the AoE of their supposedly universal power?

While I do disagree with downgrade....I can sympthasize with your Marvel crusade now that I read that link.(even though personally I don't know much about Marvel). I can see the frustration.

AoE and power control is quite a common in fiction, because no author wants universal or higher characters to go around destroying fabric of reality around themselves, cuz obviously its gonna break the story/setting etc.
Just because DB explained it in-verse doesn't mean every verse has to go around doing that...perception and analysis of on-screen feats should be enough to discern such conclusions. Ya know common sense.

But the thing about common sense is, its no longer objective....its subjective and thus uncommon. :v Harsh reality of life.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Here’s the thing about you, you’re claiming I’m “puffing up” statements even though you yourself cannot go into the source material, and grab a scan that says otherwise.

Scans ? The op has millions of them, no even billions! Scans here, scans there, scans everywhere! I was honestly thinking the OP provided to MUCH proof

 

[Malomtek]

Wow, chill down with your DB assumptions, big boy. Not every verse is Dragon Ball Z nor has to follow their principles of showing AP.

That's nice. It still doesn't mean that Touhou is universal though. That "AoE control" standard I referenced had been set by a moderator, not me. So take it up with them.

For the assumption you have, Gensokyo is a secluded space which is seperated by the Great Hakurei Barrier thanks to Yukari's Boundary Manipulation, while the other realities mentioned in Touhou-verse includes other planes of existence. You know that 'The Moon' we see in the sky we all know is an illusion, a reflection of the Heaven to avoid making humankind of Gensokyo go insane?

Gensokyo and those "secluded spaces"/"other planes of existence" are still connected with the "real", physical world in various ways though. And besides, one could just ask why don't those specific dimensions quake every time a relevant 2hu character fights in them. Remember the standard I just mentioned, which has been set by a moderator.

 

[Malomtek]

Scans ? The op has millions of them, no even billions! Scans here, scans there, scans everywhere! I was honestly thinking the OP provided to MUCH proof

I see you're not arguing why a supposedly universal 2hu is fitting the standard of "AoE control" that has been previously set by a moderator.

I think you just need to concede.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I would rather prefer to not derail that much in this thread, since, as expected, the OP didn't showed further elaboration to his claims and likely all people here already disagreed and refuted most of the points. So keep this open wouldn't have any sense.
That being said, I think it can be closed now @Antvasima

 

[Malomtek]

That being said, I think it can be closed now @Antvasima

@Antvasima I'd rather you not close this thread on the opinion of some random account that just signed up last Wednesday. I at least want @NothingToDebateWith and @catzlaflame to be able to respond to me before it's closed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

shaking the planet when you only have 36 meters of range

Yeah, no.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I at least want @NothingToDebateWith and @catzlaflame to be able to respond to me before it's closed.

There’s quite literally nothing to respond to though, you provided exactly 0 proof for any claim you made, stated that since ONE mod (supposedly) stated a fallacy that’s almost universally accepted on this wiki is incorrect that it no longer applies, like cmon man

I don't know, I've been told by a mod (specifically, Impress) and several others in another thread that it was stupid to assume that characters can control the AoE of their attacks without explicit proof of a mechanism that allows them to do so (like Dragon Ball's ki control), so I guess "AOE fallacy" doesn't really apply anymore.

…..

Tbh it feels like the OP has a dislike for the touhou series

 

[Malomtek]

There’s quite literally nothing to respond to though, you provided exactly 0 proof for any claim you made, stated that since ONE mod (supposedly) stated a fallacy that’s almost universally accepted on this wiki is incorrect that it no longer applies, like cmon man

…..

Tbh it feels like the OP has a dislike for the touhou series

I did link where the mod said it earlier, so I didn't just make it up.

 

[Malomtek]

Since it looks like this thread is dead and rejected, can you please close it @Antvasima?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.