Touhou CRT for some characters

[Mobi2]

Hi, I would like to bring up some potential scaling for the Imperishable Night cast since I've replayed it recently. Sorry, if the formatting of this post is a little bit wonky this is my first time doing anything like this on here. The main reason why I wanted to do this CRT specifically is that the profiles of Youmu, Sakuya, and Alice are kind of weird to me with their justifications (should be comparable to Reimu and Marisa is a bit odd with no scaling for it).

So the big thing is the cast being able to inflict pain onto Mokou.

I can't die, but I can't keep fighting like this.
My body hurts all over.

I don't recommend becoming immortal.

They might not look it, but these bruises
you gave me are really painful.

Although I won't die even if it hurts.

I already have. I'd better give it a rest
before my muscle pain tomorrow keeps me from moving.

Since we know that Kaguya (the one that made the infinite corridor composed of space-time) and Mokou are relative to each other due to participating in mutual murders in Cage in Lunatic Renegate, so this is some justification for the cast to be at that high-universal to universal plus tier.

There is also another thing that I wanted to mention as well. They're also able to overcome Eirin's spell card that's able to contain infinite mass. In the omake profile of the game, there is a statement that Eirin constantly suppresses her power out of respect for Kaguya (sorry that it's in Japanese I ripped it out of the game file). So basically Eirin holding back her abilities to the point where Kaguya is stronger than her suppressed state is able to do this high universal feat, and implement it in a spell card duel no less.

Eirin Yagokoro

　　種族：月人
　　能力：あらゆる薬を作る程度の能力。天才。


　　月の民。つまりは宇宙人。地上に隠れ住んでから結構長い。輝夜との
　　付き合いは、はるか昔輝夜が月に居た頃から始まっている。

　　八意家は、何時しか月に住むようになった薬の天才家系。中でも永琳
　　の知能は抜群である。彼女の頭脳は人間のそれをはるかに上回るが、
　　逆に何を言っているのか良く判らない時も多い。

　　本当は、輝夜より圧倒的に力を持つ。だが常に輝夜以上にならない様
　　に力をセーブしているらしい。


　　はるか昔、月の姫である輝夜の罪が晴れた為、罰として地上に落とさ
　　れていた輝夜を月に連れ戻しに来た使者の一人。ただ、とある理由で
　　輝夜と共謀し、月の使者を全員殺害してしまう。当時輝夜と一緒に住
　　んでいた賤しき地上人には、口止め料として永琳特製の「蓬莱の薬」
　　の入った薬の壺を手渡した。この薬、飲むと死ななくなるのである。

　　その地上人は、蓬莱の薬を使わなかったらしく間も無く死亡した。
　　後で分かった事だが、地上人は何者かに殺されていたのである。

　　詳しい話は輝夜のエピソードで。

　　また、咲夜を見て大変驚くのだが、何故なのかは永琳にしか判らない。

Some contention that I would think of for people like Youmu, and Sakuya is that they could've been carried by their masters, but the dialogue points at them doing work in the fight against Mokou. Another issue that some might have is that spell card duels don't scale you to other characters. The thing is that Eirin deemed it safe enough to use her spell card on the characters, and with Mokou she's immortal so they really don't have to abide by the rules. To go back on the spell card point Suika for example just chucks black holes at people, and there's a point in SWR despite it being a spell card duel Sakuya comments on not being able to damage Tenshi. Think of it to where I'm scaling them towards the spell card and not Eirin.

One last note is that this can be used on every playable character in Imperishable night and not just the three I was focusing on. If anyone could tell me how to upload images that would be appreciated kind of a newbie to this.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Get your image link and put it on the first "picture symbol" it's quite simple.

Also, the amount of Touhou CRT's are crazy and it's a good thing.

 

[Mobi2]

Get your image link and put it on the first "picture symbol" it's quite simple.

Also, the amount of Touhou CRT's are crazy and it's a good thing.

Thanks for the help with the images. Do you agree or do you have some grievances with what I'm proposing?

 

[Mobi2]

Bump

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

bump

 

[Catzlaflame]

Yea this looks good to me

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I think the justifications being proposed are fine.
How would be the new justifications be worded, if it has a concept.

 

[Mobi2]

I think the justifications being proposed are fine.
How would be the new justifications be worded, if it has a concept.

I would probably word it like this for the cast that participated during Imperishable Night: Is able to overcome Eirin's spell card that can contain infinite mass, and can harm Fujiwara no Mokou.

for Mokou I would edit her profile to this: On par with Kaguya due to both participating in mutual murders against each other.

For Kaguya's profile I would add this to her ap justification: Is above Eirin's spell card that can contain infinite mass by virtue of Imperishable Night's omake stating that Eirin in that game held back her power out of respect for kaguya.
This would make the scaling pretty consistent overall.

 

[RethPo]

Think youll need some proper translation or scan for the text to add the second justification to the profiles (god i hate when scans are japanese with no translations... touhou profiles dont have a lot of scans or references to when things happened though). Mokous statement doesnt seem like some meaningless spellcard banter so it should be aight using that.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

The scans are from the Touhou wiki that people already translated

Think youll need some proper translation or scan for the text to add the second justification to the profiles (god i hate when scans are japanese with no translations... touhou profiles dont have a lot of scans or references to when things happened though). Mokous statement doesnt seem like some meaningless spellcard banter so it should be aight using that.

 

[Mobi2]

Eirin Yagokoro

Species: Lunarian
Abilities: Making any drug. Natural Genius.

She's a person from the moon. That means she's an alien. She has lived on the Earth for a long time. Her relationship with Kaguya dates back to their days on the moon.

The Yagokoro family is a line of medicinal geniuses that have been living on the moon for some time. Even among them, Eirin is exceptionally intelligent. She is much smarter than humans, which makes her rarely understood.

In truth, she has power well beyond that of Kaguya's. She saves her power and maintains it at a lower level out of respect for Kaguya.

Long ago, Eirin was one of a party of messengers who were sent to bring Kaguya back to the moon; the crime for which she was exiled to Earth had been forgiven. For some reason, she helped Kaguya kill all the other messengers instead. To ensure that the earthlings who lived with Kaguya would remain silent, she bribed them with the Hourai Elixir. The elixir had the power to make people immortal. None of those earthlings consumed the elixir, however, and died shortly afterwards.

It was later discovered that they were murdered.

More detail is available in Kaguya's profile.

Eirin is very surprised to see Sakuya, but only Eirin knows the reason why.

Think youll need some proper translation or scan for the text to add the second justification to the profiles (god i hate when scans are japanese with no translations... touhou profiles dont have a lot of scans or references to when things happened though). Mokous statement doesnt seem like some meaningless spellcard banter so it should be aight using that.

There's the translation that was on the wiki if that helps I just grabbed the Japanese text from the game file, and my English patch of the game didn't translate that file for whatever reason.

 

[RethPo]

Mhmmm. Could be used for some justifications then. Also someone should prolly get saikew here. Or i will one i finish this pizza

 

[RethPo]

Okay so... im not sure about the klein bottle scaling to characters. It likely contains infinite mass (on lunatic) but that doesnt really make the individual bullets that come from it that level. It shouldnt really be anything more than a support feat for eirin.

It would still be safe to scale to mokou by the looks of it though. So alice, yukuko and youmu "fought against mokou who was physically hurt after their fight" and sakuya outright bruising them (main characters who dont have much justifications). Should i update?

 

[Mobi2]

Okay so... im not sure about the klein bottle scaling to characters. It likely contains infinite mass (on lunatic) but that doesnt really make the individual bullets that come from it that level. It shouldnt really be anything more than a support feat for eirin.

It would still be safe to scale to mokou by the looks of it though. So alice, yukuko and youmu "fought against mokou who was physically hurt after their fight" and sakuya outright bruising them (main characters who dont have much justifications). Should i update?

My main point with the Klein bottle is that she was willing to pull it out knowing that it's able to contain infinite mass on the characters in the first place. This is a super restricted Eirin to the point where Kaguya is above anything she pulls out during the game given the omake we were given, and the max output of the thing is High-3A at best given its description. Whereas Kaguya casually performed a low 2-C feat, and Mokou = Kaguya give or take. So it's like High 3A Klien bottle < Kaguya ~ Mokou ~ the cast.

 

[Mobi2]

I understand the point that you were trying to make with the bullets but it's like a last resort effort in the duel before Kaguya just kicks in. It's just potential supporting evidence for the Mokou scaling, I'd like to hear a consensus from everyone that voted so far on that specific point Reth was making.

 

[Mobi2]

Bump

 

[RethPo]

Ive added the mokou explanation to the profiles btw. For the klein bottle thing ehhh... prolly better getting a knowledgeable staff or something on that one. Also might kinda depend on if a klein bottle would even work that way idk.

 

[Mobi2]

Ive added the mokou explanation to the profiles btw. For the klein bottle thing ehhh... prolly better getting a knowledgeable staff or something on that one. Also might kinda depend on if a klein bottle would even work that way idk.

Can you? I'm pretty sure you would need staff permission to even add it to the profiles in the first place.

 

[Mobi2]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King sorry to bother you can you give your opinion on the matter at hand?

 

[RethPo]

Not sure if normie users can staff directly here. Might have to go to his message wall.

 

[QuasiYuri]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King seems like your opinion's needed.

Imo this should be fine. The way we treat spell cards battle as "no scaling through them" is pretty wrong in itself anyway (and would need a revision of how we treat it) and with blatant statements of her being hurt, there's no doubt about them scaling to her durability.

 

[Mobi2]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King seems like your opinion's needed.

Imo this should be fine. The way we treat spell cards battle as "no scaling through them" is pretty wrong in itself anyway (and would need a revision of how we treat it) and with blatant statements of her being hurt, there's no doubt about them scaling to her durability.

Yeah, there is definitely a strength hierarchy that's presented to us through spell card battles. Some examples I can think of is someone in an interview asking ZUN why Sagume didn't have any damage on her after the battle in LOLK and he said that it would've been pretty embarrassing for her to take any damage when she was only testing out the protagonists, Sakuya/Reimu/etc constantly being called strong after beating some of the stage bosses, and Reimu in strange creators outer world mentioning why Yuyuko in TD was so weak compared to her PCB fight.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Saikou isn't seemingly online for quite a while, so someone should get another Touhou supporter here.

 

[RethPo]

Proms the only knowledgeable staff on the list. You could tag them and any knowledgeable users if you want

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King give your opinion already or ill spam your wall with 3D rl vanilla hentai

Imo this should be fine. The way we treat spell cards battle as "no scaling through them" is pretty wrong in itself anyway (and would need a revision of how we treat it) and with blatant statements of her being hurt, there's no doubt about them scaling to her durability.

I know theres a lot if instances in printworks of weaker people being unable to fight stronger youkai (three fairies getting stomped by yukari etc). So strength and mostly abilities play a role in it. Although a lot of the time that stuff can fall under spellcard banter. Im definitely not supporting almost everyone scaling to universal if that might be what youre going for.

 

[Mobi2]

So everyone here is in agreement with the Mokou point, and the only thing that's really contentious is Eirin's "galaxy in a pot spell" card right?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Pretty much.

 

[Mobi2]

bump

 

[Malomtek]

I don't agree with this. I don't even agree that Touhou should even be ranked as high as it is right now.

Touhou supporters, like the series itself, tend to use the term "infinite" very glibly. In a series as infamous for its hyperbolic and flowery language usage as Touhou is, we would need more proof for a universal power level than "oh but this character says such as such a thing is 'infinite' or whatever".

Even the "infinite corridor composed of spacetime" stuff reeks of hyperbole taken way too seriously. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for its "infinity" beyond a character statement and some circular reasoning done to justify that character statement. People are essentially stating as fact that Kaguya created an infinite universe hidden inside the Eientei estate, which is kind of an extraordinary claim that requires some pretty hard-hitting evidence, not just one-note character lines. There's also the fact that even if Kaguya were to have created an "infinite corridor composed of spacetime", then it looks more like spacetime hax than anything that solidly translates to attack power.

And believe me, nothing in Touhou whatsoever suggests some kind of universal power for Gensokyo residents, not even the weird "heaven-breaking" feat people claim for Suika. Characters aren't shaking the planet when they fight. They don't generate universal shockwaves in their danmaku battles. They aren't powering up and having that power felt across all of space. They generally just seem to top at a stellar level in realistic terms.

If we're going to just take hyperbole and flowery language seriously, then I guess the floodgates can now be opened not just for, for example, outerversal 2hus, but a lot of other shit that would be considered "wank" just a week ago.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I don't agree with this. (and snip of the vent)

Then please, be our guests and make a proper revision of the series. Propose an accurate cosmology revision, we require that too. Make an accurate depiction of the characters tiers.
Thank you.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Oh and Tenshi shook all of Heaven with her power of humanity's temperament. And Joon and Shion also with the Perfect Possession incident were screwing up the dream world fundamentally. Doremy recreated the LoTB and netherworld in dreams which are established as reality.

So, there's a few things you want to go over, before retracting low 2-C from them.

 

[Malomtek]

Then please, be our guests and make a proper revision of the series. Propose an accurate cosmology revision, we require that too. Make an accurate depiction of the characters tiers.
Thank you.

You know what, I just will.

 

[Bummel]

Oh and Tenshi shook all of Heaven with her power of humanity's temperament. And Joon and Shion also with the Perfect Possession incident were screwing up the dream world fundamentally. Doremy recreated the LoTB and netherworld in dreams which are established as reality.

So, there's a few things you want to go over, before retracting low 2-C from them.

And don't forget
true form of god creating the reality
hell

and other thing that not mentioned

 

[Mobi2]

Oh and Tenshi shook all of Heaven with her power of humanity's temperament. And Joon and Shion also with the Perfect Possession incident were screwing up the dream world fundamentally. Doremy recreated the LoTB and netherworld in dreams which are established as reality.

So, there's a few things you want to go over, before retracting low 2-C from them.

there's also Tenshi's dream world clone planning on destroying heaven as a bonus statement.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Yeah, just shows even more consistency given how humanity's temperament was said to be inexhaustible. I'm also done with the downgrade thread that was made. 99% of the people disagreed with it anyway, and honestly led to circular argumentation.

there's also Tenshi's dream world clone planning on destroying heaven as a bonus statement.

 

[Mobi2]

Uh, should I just @ someone else since saikou hasn't responded yet?

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

yes

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain what you need to do here, and what I was called here to help out with please?

 

[Mobi2]

Can somebody explain what you need to do here, and what I was called here to help out with please?

I'm looking for some knowledgeable members for touhou or staff to give their opinion on the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Promestein @Uninown @Andykhang @Jiangshi1 @Theglassman12 @Megamangohan @Junkoposter @Not_Icarus @Sans2345 @CrimsonStarFallen @OnsokunoSonic @Ryukama @Mariogoods @GokuBlacksolosyourverse @LuckyEmile @Junkoposter @Udlmaster

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this thread?

 

[Mobi2]

Thank you so much for the help.