Touhou Speed Scaling

[Angelzewolf]

So what do you suggest I do to remedy this, edit my arguments into the OP once I'm done making them?

If you want this to be a serious downgrade attempt, then yeah. Instead of making multiple posts (especially since Fuji is busy atm anyhow), you can just compile your arguments and add them to the OP.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Sorry for repeating myself, but just to be clear, you don't have an issue with the point I made regarding the Infinite Corridor feat?

Preoccupied with other things and can't respond in detail, sorry. But the others can handle the discussion here just fine. Better than I at that, because Fujiwara for example knows the franchise a lot more than I do.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The Validity of Infinite Speed Touhou Project

Hey everyone, I know this isn’t the Kasen Ibaraki vs Fleetway Sonic blog I promised first, but this ended up being something I realized I’d ...

kirbonicpikminvs.blogspot.com

I covered a lot of the common counter arguments to the 3 major accepted Touhou infinite feats here, I’d recommend reading it before making any more arguments against the infinite feats.

 

[Robo432343]

Touhou Infinite Speed Bad

What the title said. First of all scaling to the fodder is atrocious, who allowed that. The reasoning for it is pretty whack, given how it's based on the reasoning for MFTL+. Which isn't really applicable with this new rating. Fairies being comparable to Rabbits was only when both had similar...

vsbattles.com

i agree with OP fr

 

[SomeJJJJ]

lmao, with everything that has been posted, if Fuji responds or adds anything this thread will be too debunked

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The first infinite speed claim is for all of the Touhou 8 cast: The feat of overcoming Kaguya Houraisan's Infinite Corridor.
There is one thing strange about this feat: when they manage to overcome the corridor. Regardless of what team you're using, it always happens after Eirin is defeated in the middle of Stage 6. Based on Reimu's article in PMiSS, all Spell Card Duels are made with a bet in mind. Going by this, I do not think it is coincidental that the corridor enchanted by the "manipulation of eternity and the instantaneous" would suddenly happen to be overcome by all these characters at the exact same time based on pure chance, nor is it by chance that overcoming the corridor took any amount of time at all. Instead, it is far more likely that the dispelling of this corridor was the reward of the player characters for defeating Eirin (presumably by asking Kaguya to do so), before either rematching the player character or Kaguya instead dueling the player character (dependent on route).

Okay, so I'll break this down one step at a time. The claim that spell card duels are done with a "bet" in mind is a gross misrepresentation of what's actually said. The SCR draft makes no mention of this. Reimu's PMiSS article does mention it (as does the more up-to-date version of the spell card rules, from SCoOW), but you might find a very slight issue in how it's phrased:

The victor is entitled only to what was agreed upon before the duel. If they're not interested in what their opponent has to offer, they can refuse a duel.

"Agreed upon before the duel". No terms are made with Eirin prior to fighting her. Nobody says "if you lose, you have to remove the corridor"; In fact, they directly ask her to dispel the illusory moon she created, and she says no. But, you may argue that this deal just happened offscreen, so I can objectively prove that the protagonists did not ask Eirin to remove the corridor. In the Barrier Team's scenario, Eirin has to explain where they even are and that the corridor was endless, accentuated with Reimu's "??" showing she genuinely does not know where she is (after all, she was only following Eirin). This happens again in the Magic Team route, with Eirin even commenting on how they don't realize where they've ended up. And, of course, Youmu's response is one of "false passage? huh?". So let me ask you this: How can these characters ask Eirin to dispel something that they do not even know exists?

They literally could not make a bet with Eirin to remove the corridor, because they didn't know it existed until they had already crossed it. There's also the logical issue of when they encounter Eirin; They actually do so at the end of stage 5, before they enter the corridor. Now, Eirin's goal here is to trick the protagonists into entering the fake, infinite corridor so they don't find Kaguya... so, if they make a deal when they first encounter Eirin, why would she reveal that one of the corridors is fake to begin with? It would render the entire deal moot, because the protagonists could just go "hey thanks for telling us one of the corridors is fake, dumbass", except they obviously don't do that, so its clear that they only learn of its existence after they cross it.

And now I move on to the idea that they crossed the corridor at the exact same time, or by chance. Saying they crossed it at the same time is uh, nonsensical? Partly because I can't understand why this would disprove infinite speed, and partly because I don't even know what that means. If it's in regards to both protagonists reaching the end at the same time, then that doesn't work, because they're deliberately traveling in a pair to work as a team. If it's in regards to them reaching the end at the same time as Eirin, then that doesn't work because Eirin is leading them there and they're just chasing after her. If it's in regards to the stage taking the same amount of time for each character... uh, yeah, that's how STGs work. They're basically on rails, which is why you can't really go faster or slower on any given stage (the only time variance lies in how long it takes to kill bosses/midbosses). Every possible interpretation I can give your claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny, which is almost impressive.

As for Eirin or Kaguya dispelling the corridor... Eirin has no ability which would allow her to do that. No power null, no infinite range space-time manipulation, no nothing. She can, at the very least, ask Kaguya, right? She is a telepath, after all (something I overlooked in my prior response). Except... nothing even indicates she does this, and doesn't even make sense with your theory; The protagonists don't even know Kaguya exists. They'd be asking Eirin to ask someone they're completely unaware of to dispel the corridor (something which they don't even know she can do, by the way), which means this entire argument boils down to "after we beat you up in the infinite corridor we choose to go down for no reason (because you just told us about it), could you please telepathically call your friend we don't know about and have her use her hypothetical ability (which we also don't know about) and have her dispel the corridor? Also, can you explain what the corridor is several minutes after we beat you?" vs "THEY GOT TO THE END BECAUSE THEY FLEW THERE". It's a rather simple case of Occam's razor.

Also, asking Kaguya after you beat her makes no sense. You don't fight Kaguya at all in stage 6A (the route where the feat happens); In fact, you never even encounter her in a form besided a disembodied voice telling Eirin to get back up and fight. And when you do fight her in stage 6B, that's when you choose the real, non-infinite corridor, so... what would the point even be?

Of course, even ignoring the logical holes, the misrepresentations, every tiny flaw in your argument, there is one thing that objectively cannot be overlooked: That this is wholly hypothetical, and has no solid evidence backing it.

2. Eirin is not saying that because the characters have to go through an "infinite corridor" to return, but because they're in outer space. Eirin also explicitly states the infinite corridor is an illusion, as part of her spell creating a false moon (and false Earth, as shown in the Netherworld scenario) to separate Kaguya from the real one (in response to Remilia stating the amount of work it would take to clean it).
5. Had it truly been an "infinite" corridor generated solely by Kaguya, the characters would have barely moved at all after overcoming it, simply reaching the other side of the corridor (similar to, say, Gwyndolin's arena in Dark Souls, or the infinite staircases in Super Mario 64). Instead, they're in outer space, which means that to an outside observer they were moving forward this entire time.

The space-y background you see is actually an illusion. So where are they if not in space? Well, Heaven. The sealing spell Eirin put over the earth has its borders in between the earth and Lunar Capital (it is meant to separate the two, after all). The distance between the earth and Lunar Capital is stated to be Heaven on multiple occasions; Yukari has to chart a path through Heaven in order to reach the capital, the capital views Heaven as geographically beneath itself, and Koishi outright says Heaven is what lies between the earth and moon. Heaven is, well... infinite. So the "end point" of the corridor is an undefined distance away from earth, being at the midpoint of an infinite distance. This means the only reliable way we can scale the corridor's size is via... the statements pertaining to its size, every single one of which (all 10+ of 'em) says it's infinite.

The corridor is not an illusion. Literally the entire premise of the story is that the youkai (and Yuyuko) can see through Eirin's illusions; It's why they notice the moon is missing to begin with. So why would they not be able to tell the corridor was an illusion? Furthermore, this is directly contradicted twice; First in ULiL, where it's shown that the corridor is a spell cast by Kaguya that infinitely links together pieces of space-time (not an illusion), and in CDS, where it's stated that Kaguya's abilities are used to create the infinite corridors (said abilities being the manipulation of the eternal and the instantaneous; also not an illusion).

3. Yes, Eirin's goal IS to prevent Kaguya from being found, but by the Lunarians. She does this because, well, they're fugitives.

Not exclusive to the Lunarians. CDS confirms the corridor is there to deter any intruders, not just Lunarians, and ULiL has Kaguya break out the infinite corridor spell in response to intruders that are Definitely Not Lunarians. Both of these happen well after they realize they're not under attack from the capital anymore, too.

1. Eirin exits the scene in both routes A and B, giving her time to speak with Kaguya, and in A Kaguya even enters during the fight, implying she was at the very least aware of it, if not actually watching it.

Route B is irrelevant, the feat doesn't even happen there (the Eirin in route B is a fake, anyways, so lmao). You are right about route A, though. Let me post her dialogue for convenience's sake.

Eirin, I grant you one more chance with my power.
If you lose this time...
You there, human and youkai!
With the medicine made by my power, and Eirin's true strength, you'll never forget this as long as you live!

Okay, so she has no reason to dispel the corridor. She is literally trying to prevent that from happening (assuming your theory about them "betting" to dispel the corridor on Eirin's defeat is even true). This is completely incongruent with your interpretation of events.

4. You know, true, I might have screwed up here. There's also no definite proof that it was made with Kaguya's ability though, my bad for making that assumption.

Bro you literally have hard evidence saying Kaguya made it, what do you MEAN "assumption"??

The player character never has to preform an infinite-speed feat in order to arrive at Hokkai.
PC reaches the Palanquin Ship before it enters Makai, so even if it is capable of Infinite Speed it is not necessarily at this velocity yet.
By the time Stage 5 begins, PC is already "Above Hokkai", AKA at its destination, when the ship runs out of fuel.
If there is ANY speed feat to mention here, it's that of the Ship itself, which PC is riding aboard, meaning they only have to catch up with the undefined, yet most likely finite speed of the ship before reaching Makai, and upon reaching it all that's left is for them is to team up with Shou to break the seal on Hokkai.

The ship is directly compared to a bullet train, which travels to its destination at top speed without stopping or slowing down. Furthermore, the ship was already spotted flying through Gensokyo well before the protagonists caught up to it; It had literal hours to build up speed, so it was almost certainly at top speed by the time the protagonists started chasing it.

So, how can this be reconciled with Komachi's statement in PoFV?
Basically, there are 2 possibilities:
1. The "fee" is 0 for living humans, making the Sanzu river truly infinite. In this scenario, "I won't let you cross!" is an acknowledgment of Marisa's infinite speed... Which she couldn't have known about, unless it was a common trait in the verse and she just assumed it applied to her, as this would be her first time meeting Marisa.

Uh, no, the "I won't let you cross!" is just a way of saying she's going to stop Marisa. It isn't an acknowledgement of speed, it's just... saying you are going to stop someone from doing what they are currently trying to do. This is a very weird reading of a pretty common turn of phrase.

2. The "fee" is not 0 for living humans, and is calculated the same as for deceased. In this scenario, "For living humans, the width of the Sanzu River is infinite! I won't let you cross!" is referring to Komachi's ability, Distance Manipulation, and the way she chooses to use it, which is to say that Komachi will continue to increase the width of the Sanzu River until either Marisa leaves or Komachi is unable to continue expanding it.
Coincidentally, Komachi in this scenario would indeed either unable to continue expanding it or chooses to stop after her fight with Marisa, as she presumably has to leave in order to either be reprimanded by Eiki or another higher-up due to her slacking off.
There is also more evidence to support this in PoFV, as Komachi attempts to extort a real fee out of Reimu for a luxury cruise across the river, without stating any strange quirks like an infinite distance for living humans, nor does she EVER mention this again.

So, which of these is correct? I believe the second is more likely out of these too, but make your own judgement.
I am, however, confident that this is enough to cast reasonable doubt on the Sanzu River feat being infinite-speed.

Okay, this is COMPLETELY ignoring the context of the feat. Whether or not the fee applies to living humans does not matter, because the protagonists do not pay the fee when crossing it in WBaWC. They even lament the fact that they didn't pay the toll, because doing so would've made their trip more convenient. Furthermore, countless beast spirits are also crossing the river, and not only are they not alive, but they are literally a hostile force invading Gensokyo - They have no reason to pay the toll at all.

FWIW, Chiyari also crosses the river without paying any kind of fee in UDoALG.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Validity of Infinite Speed Touhou Project

Hey everyone, I know this isn’t the Kasen Ibaraki vs Fleetway Sonic blog I promised first, but this ended up being something I realized I’d ...

kirbonicpikminvs.blogspot.com

I covered a lot of the common counter arguments to the 3 major accepted Touhou infinite feats here, I’d recommend reading it before making any more arguments against the infinite feats.

I also recommend yall read this btw

 

[SomeJJJJ]

THAT FELT LIKE A BUS HITTING ME

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

THAT FELT LIKE A BUS HITTING ME

something tells me im gonna get a lot of use out of this image

 

[SomeJJJJ]

something tells me im gonna get a lot of use out of this image

You never hold back, dont you?

 

[Quibster]

its joever

 

[Myst166]

Okay, so I'll break this down one step at a time. The claim that spell card duels are done with a "bet" in mind is a gross misrepresentation of what's actually said. The SCR draft makes no mention of this. Reimu's PMiSS article does mention it (as does the more up-to-date version of the spell card rules, from SCoOW), but you might find a very slight issue in how it's phrased:

"Agreed upon before the duel". No terms are made with Eirin prior to fighting her. Nobody says "if you lose, you have to remove the corridor"; In fact, they directly ask her to dispel the illusory moon she created, and she says no. But, you may argue that this deal just happened offscreen, so I can objectively prove that the protagonists did not ask Eirin to remove the corridor. In the Barrier Team's scenario, Eirin has to explain where they even are and that the corridor was endless, accentuated with Reimu's "??" showing she genuinely does not know where she is (after all, she was only following Eirin). This happens again in the Magic Team route, with Eirin even commenting on how they don't realize where they've ended up. And, of course, Youmu's response is one of "false passage? huh?". So let me ask you this: How can these characters ask Eirin to dispel something that they do not even know exists?

They literally could not make a bet with Eirin to remove the corridor, because they didn't know it existed until they had already crossed it. There's also the logical issue of when they encounter Eirin; They actually do so at the end of stage 5, before they enter the corridor. Now, Eirin's goal here is to trick the protagonists into entering the fake, infinite corridor so they don't find Kaguya... so, if they make a deal when they first encounter Eirin, why would she reveal that one of the corridors is fake to begin with? It would render the entire deal moot, because the protagonists could just go "hey thanks for telling us one of the corridors is fake, dumbass", except they obviously don't do that, so its clear that they only learn of its existence after they cross it.

And now I move on to the idea that they crossed the corridor at the exact same time, or by chance. Saying they crossed it at the same time is uh, nonsensical? Partly because I can't understand why this would disprove infinite speed, and partly because I don't even know what that means. If it's in regards to both protagonists reaching the end at the same time, then that doesn't work, because they're deliberately traveling in a pair to work as a team. If it's in regards to them reaching the end at the same time as Eirin, then that doesn't work because Eirin is leading them there and they're just chasing after her. If it's in regards to the stage taking the same amount of time for each character... uh, yeah, that's how STGs work. They're basically on rails, which is why you can't really go faster or slower on any given stage (the only time variance lies in how long it takes to kill bosses/midbosses). Every possible interpretation I can give your claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny, which is almost impressive.

As for Eirin or Kaguya dispelling the corridor... Eirin has no ability which would allow her to do that. No power null, no infinite range space-time manipulation, no nothing. She can, at the very least, ask Kaguya, right? She is a telepath, after all (something I overlooked in my prior response). Except... nothing even indicates she does this, and doesn't even make sense with your theory; The protagonists don't even know Kaguya exists. They'd be asking Eirin to ask someone they're completely unaware of to dispel the corridor (something which they don't even know she can do, by the way), which means this entire argument boils down to "after we beat you up in the infinite corridor we choose to go down for no reason (because you just told us about it), could you please telepathically call your friend we don't know about and have her use her hypothetical ability (which we also don't know about) and have her dispel the corridor? Also, can you explain what the corridor is several minutes after we beat you?" vs "THEY GOT TO THE END BECAUSE THEY FLEW THERE". It's a rather simple case of Occam's razor.

Also, asking Kaguya after you beat her makes no sense. You don't fight Kaguya at all in stage 6A (the route where the feat happens); In fact, you never even encounter her in a form besided a disembodied voice telling Eirin to get back up and fight. And when you do fight her in stage 6B, that's when you choose the real, non-infinite corridor, so... what would the point even be?

Of course, even ignoring the logical holes, the misrepresentations, every tiny flaw in your argument, there is one thing that objectively cannot be overlooked: That this is wholly hypothetical, and has no solid evidence backing it.

The space-y background you see is actually an illusion. So where are they if not in space? Well, Heaven. The sealing spell Eirin put over the earth has its borders in between the earth and Lunar Capital (it is meant to separate the two, after all). The distance between the earth and Lunar Capital is stated to be Heaven on multiple occasions; Yukari has to chart a path through Heaven in order to reach the capital, the capital views Heaven as geographically beneath itself, and Koishi outright says Heaven is what lies between the earth and moon. Heaven is, well... infinite. So the "end point" of the corridor is an undefined distance away from earth, being at the midpoint of an infinite distance. This means the only reliable way we can scale the corridor's size is via... the statements pertaining to its size, every single one of which (all 10+ of 'em) says it's infinite.

The corridor is not an illusion. Literally the entire premise of the story is that the youkai (and Yuyuko) can see through Eirin's illusions; It's why they notice the moon is missing to begin with. So why would they not be able to tell the corridor was an illusion? Furthermore, this is directly contradicted twice; First in ULiL, where it's shown that the corridor is a spell cast by Kaguya that infinitely links together pieces of space-time (not an illusion), and in CDS, where it's stated that Kaguya's abilities are used to create the infinite corridors (said abilities being the manipulation of the eternal and the instantaneous; also not an illusion).

Not exclusive to the Lunarians. CDS confirms the corridor is there to deter any intruders, not just Lunarians, and ULiL has Kaguya break out the infinite corridor spell in response to intruders that are Definitely Not Lunarians. Both of these happen well after they realize they're not under attack from the capital anymore, too.

Route B is irrelevant, the feat doesn't even happen there (the Eirin in route B is a fake, anyways, so lmao). You are right about route A, though. Let me post her dialogue for convenience's sake.

Okay, so she has no reason to dispel the corridor. She is literally trying to prevent that from happening (assuming your theory about them "betting" to dispel the corridor on Eirin's defeat is even true). This is completely incongruent with your interpretation of events.

Bro you literally have hard evidence saying Kaguya made it, what do you MEAN "assumption"??

The ship is directly compared to a bullet train, which travels to its destination at top speed without stopping or slowing down. Furthermore, the ship was already spotted flying through Gensokyo well before the protagonists caught up to it; It had literal hours to build up speed, so it was almost certainly at top speed by the time the protagonists started chasing it.

Uh, no, the "I won't let you cross!" is just a way of saying she's going to stop Marisa. It isn't an acknowledgement of speed, it's just... saying you are going to stop someone from doing what they are currently trying to do. This is a very weird reading of a pretty common turn of phrase.

Okay, this is COMPLETELY ignoring the context of the feat. Whether or not the fee applies to living humans does not matter, because the protagonists do not pay the fee when crossing it in WBaWC. They even lament the fact that they didn't pay the toll, because doing so would've made their trip more convenient. Furthermore, countless beast spirits are also crossing the river, and not only are they not alive, but they are literally a hostile force invading Gensokyo - They have no reason to pay the toll at all.

FWIW, Chiyari also crosses the river without paying any kind of fee in UDoALG.

Fair enough, and thanks for responding. I still disagree with the Sanzu River feat tho, as Aya's article explicitly states that the fee is not necessarily a literal one.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fair enough, and thanks for responding. I still disagree with the Sanzu River feat tho, as Aya's article explicitly states that the fee is not necessarily a literal one.

But what does that have to do with the feat? Literal or not, nobody who crosses the river in WBaWC is paying the toll.

 

[Myst166]

But what does that have to do with the feat? Literal or not, nobody who crosses the river in WBaWC is paying the toll.

This is shown to not be needed, via Urumi ferrying Reimu across the Sanzu instead of a Shinigami in her Otter route (free of charge, of course).
This proves that the Sanzu River is only infinite in width (if it ever even IS infinite in width) to living humans without some sort of accompaniment (as for the other routes, if Urumi's proximity is sufficient to shorten the Sanzu and/or make it finite, a Beast Spirit's possession should do the same).

Now, you may bring up the following argument:

Response to "The Shinigami could just be creating more water when they expand the river?" in the linked blog.

You're right, they're not creating water. They're using the Sanzu's infinite supply of water to preform this feat.
This would mean that Ran's calculation could only apply to a human paying a Shinigami to ferry them, as Urumi not being a Shinigami proves that paying the Shinigami is not an "external stimulus", and that by default the Sanzu is at most stupidly long rather than infinite, as the Shinigami would be the one shortening or elongating the distance according to how much they are paid, and thus, Youmu regretting not paying a Shinigami is just because the trip would have been shorter.

Also, for Kirbonic_Pikmin's "conclusion" section regarding scaling the other races in Touhou off of the Beast Spirits, the only source explicitly stating the Sanzu's width to be infinite (as we don't know if the Sanzu's length is finite or not) also specifies that width to only apply to living humans, so there's nothing showing that the Beast Spirits would need to have infinite speed to cross the Sanzu.

All this is unless, of course, Urumi is moving at an infinite speed as well but at that point might as well just say everyone's moving at infinite speed, and if they're all moving at infinite speed, it suddenly seems a lot less infinite, so I'm going to refrain from making those kinds of assumptions.

 

[Myst166]

Stuff about the Palanquin Ship

The player character sees the Palanquin Ship before it reaches Makai, and also boards before it reaches Makai. If so, this'd mean the gameplay for the first 4 stages of Undefined Fantastic Object is slowed down by a factor of infinity.
EDIT: To elaborate, if the Palanquin Ship is travelling at an infinite speed through Gensokyo (as Kirbonic_Pikmin suggests), the player character must react and accelerate to faster-than-infinite speed in literally 0 time, as otherwise they could only board the ship when its already in Makai, since Gensokyo is a finite space. No reaction speed would allow such a feat, making precognition a requirement for reaching the ship in this case, and while I'm pretty sure Sanae has some form of precognition and Reimu might too, Marisa has no such ability. Marisa's reaction time would therefore have to be less than zero to preform the Palanquin Ship feat, and that's... Just not possible, or at least there's nothing else to suggest it is. Therefore, the Palanquin Ship must have been travelling at a finite speed through Gensokyo.

 

[Myst166]

The ship is directly compared to a bullet train, which travels to its destination at top speed without stopping or slowing down. Furthermore, the ship was already spotted flying through Gensokyo well before the protagonists caught up to it; It had literal hours to build up speed, so it was almost certainly at top speed by the time the protagonists started chasing it.

If it was top speed, and if its top speed is in fact infinite, then the protagonist would not be able to catch up to it in Gensokyo, since Gensokyo has finite space (unless you'd like to argue otherwise). This conflicts with the info we have, which shows that the protagonist boards the ship while it still is in Gensokyo. Also, assuming that "like the bullet trains" = instant acceleration is completely ignoring the possibility that Sanae is instead referring to its automatic nature.

 

[Myst166]

FWIW, Chiyari also crosses the river without paying any kind of fee in UDoALG.

Yeah, of course she would. She's not human.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

The player character sees the Palanquin Ship before it reaches Makai, and also boards before it reaches Makai. If so, this'd mean the gameplay for the first 4 stages of Undefined Fantastic Object is slowed down by a factor of infinity.
EDIT: To elaborate, if the Palanquin Ship is travelling at an infinite speed through Gensokyo (as Kirbonic_Pikmin suggests), the player character must react and accelerate to faster-than-infinite speed in literally 0 time, as otherwise they could only board the ship when its already in Makai, since Gensokyo is a finite space. No reaction speed would allow such a feat, making precognition a requirement for reaching the ship in this case, and while I'm pretty sure Sanae has some form of precognition and Reimu might too, Marisa has no such ability. Marisa's reaction time would therefore have to be less than zero to preform the Palanquin Ship feat, and that's... Just not possible, or at least there's nothing else to suggest it is. Therefore, the Palanquin Ship must have been travelling at a finite speed through Gensokyo.

This is just a very long argument from incredulity, since you're just saying it's unbelievable that the gameplay We see happens at such high speeds. Not only that, but in Powerscaling, reacting to or outspeeding infinite speeds just means you're faster than the baseline standards for infinite speed. That's just something normal in powerscaling, is it's the nature of this hobby.

We could also get into how Gensokyo isn't technically finite by several means (due to being merged with the Netherworld since PCB and also the very nature of how Gensokyo loops in on itself), but I won't say much more on the matter since I'm not in the mood to defend infinite speed for the millionth time.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is just a very long argument from incredulity, since you're just saying it's unbelievable that the gameplay We see happens at such high speeds. Not only that, but in Powerscaling, reacting to or outspeeding infinite speeds just means you're faster than the baseline standards for infinite speed. That's just something normal in powerscaling, is it's the nature of this hobby.

We could also get into how Gensokyo isn't technically finite by several means (due to being merged with the Netherworld since PCB and also the very nature of how Gensokyo loops in on itself), but I won't say much more on the matter since I'm not in the mood to defend infinite speed for the millionth time.

Right, even without the weird Netherworld size arguments, Gensokyo technically has infinite space despite its size due to its non-euclidean nature; The Palanquin Ship could fly at full speed for a year straight and not reach the edge of Gensokyo, because it doesn't have one.

 

[Myst166]

This is just a very long argument from incredulity, since you're just saying it's unbelievable that the gameplay We see happens at such high speeds. Not only that, but in Powerscaling, reacting to or outspeeding infinite speeds just means you're faster than the baseline standards for infinite speed. That's just something normal in powerscaling, is it's the nature of this hobby.

We could also get into how Gensokyo isn't technically finite by several means (due to being merged with the Netherworld since PCB and also the very nature of how Gensokyo loops in on itself), but I won't say much more on the matter since I'm not in the mood to defend infinite speed for the millionth time.

Gensokyo loops in on itself? that's really cool if true

 

[Myst166]

This is just a very long argument from incredulity, since you're just saying it's unbelievable that the gameplay We see happens at such high speeds. Not only that, but in Powerscaling, reacting to or outspeeding infinite speeds just means you're faster than the baseline standards for infinite speed. That's just something normal in powerscaling, is it's the nature of this hobby.

We could also get into how Gensokyo isn't technically finite by several means (due to being merged with the Netherworld since PCB and also the very nature of how Gensokyo loops in on itself), but I won't say much more on the matter since I'm not in the mood to defend infinite speed for the millionth time.

Also, does this mean we have to take infinite speed into account for every matchup involving Touhou?
Edit: As in, can infinite speed in Touhou be disregarded for certain matchups in favor of actually trying to scale them

 

[Myst166]

Right, even without the weird Netherworld size arguments, Gensokyo technically has infinite space despite its size due to its non-euclidean nature; The Palanquin Ship could fly at full speed for a year straight and not reach the edge of Gensokyo, because it doesn't have one.

And yeah, fair enough... I'm still not convinced about the Sanzu River feat tho, for the reasons I mentioned above.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Also, does this mean we have to take infinite speed into account for every matchup involving Touhou?
Edit: As in, can infinite speed in Touhou be disregarded for certain matchups in favor of actually trying to scale them

Most matchups on this wiki tend to be set to equal speeds regardless because speed discrepancies happen often on the wiki, so it doesn’t matter too much. But yes? Any character with infinite speed on their profile is treated as infinite

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is shown to not be needed, via Urumi ferrying Reimu across the Sanzu instead of a Shinigami in her Otter route (free of charge, of course).
This proves that the Sanzu River is only infinite in width (if it ever even IS infinite in width) to living humans without some sort of accompaniment (as for the other routes, if Urumi's proximity is sufficient to shorten the Sanzu and/or make it finite, a Beast Spirit's possession should do the same).

1. Multiple characters actively brush off Urumi's assistance in other routes and choose to fly there themselves, meaning this entire point means nothing.
2. Assuming that these characters have infinite range passive space-time warping that very coincidentally only shows up in this scene to the benefit of the protagonists is just as if not more absurd than saying they have infinite speed.

All this is unless, of course, Urumi is moving at an infinite speed as well but at that point might as well just say everyone's moving at infinite speed, and if they're all moving at infinite speed, it suddenly seems a lot less infinite, so I'm going to refrain from making those kinds of assumptions.

Also, does this mean we have to take infinite speed into account for every matchup involving Touhou?
Edit: As in, can infinite speed in Touhou be disregarded for certain matchups in favor of actually trying to scale them

Yes to both. It doesn't matter what speed you scale them to, the characters are all comparable to one another.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Also just to clarify Touhou isn’t like jumping straight to infinite from like subsonic/hypersonic or whatever, there’s a fuckload of rela-FTL feats and quite a few MFTL feats. Dream world crossing gets in the 200,000c range as a lowball, Touhou 5 has a billions c feat, and if it’s not infinite, busting heaven gets into at least the octotrigintillion x FTL ranges due to its known finite size, so the characters would still be shitzillion fast

 

[Myst166]

Also just to clarify Touhou isn’t like jumping straight to infinite from like subsonic/hypersonic or whatever, there’s a fuckload of rela-FTL feats and quite a few MFTL feats. Dream world crossing gets in the 200,000c range as a lowball, Touhou 5 has a billions c feat, and if it’s not infinite, busting heaven gets into at least the octotrigintillion x FTL ranges due to its known finite size, so the characters would still be shitzillion fast

Busting heaven is a range feat applied to one character, but I get your point. How big is heaven btw?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Busting heaven is a range feat applied to one character, but I get your point. How big is heaven btw?

Currently we only have Suika and iirc Tenshi scaling to destroying it, but there’s altogether about 10 different feats across several characters that can either affect or destroy heaven directly or by proxy.

Also heaven can contain Amitabha who’s huge, he’s stated in series to be 6 x 10^125 yojana tall (in Touhou, 1 Yojana = 7km). It’s like 108,717 Centillion x universal.

 

[Myst166]

Currently we only have Suika and iirc Tenshi scaling to destroying it, but there’s altogether about 10 different feats across several characters that can either affect or destroy heaven directly or by proxy.

Also heaven can contain Amitabha who’s huge, he’s stated in series to be 6 x 10^125 yojana tall (in Touhou, 1 Yojana = 7km). It’s like 108,717 Centillion x universal.

Wait ain't that the same measurement in that spell Youmu has that scales to like relativistic or whatever

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Wait ain't that the same measurement in that spell Youmu has that scales to like relativistic or whatever

yojana has been used a few times the series before so maybe? Which feat is it?