Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

[Quibster]

Can this be scaled to pretty much any strong gal or is Doremy built different?

I think Doremy would scale to God Tiers via Dreamhax. Everyone in that bracket should have Multi-stellar, possibly Infinite LS. This would also include other high tiers like Tenryu (a living constellation) and Yukari who also, funnily enough, moves the stars/can physically opening holes in spacetime. So by default; the Youkai Sages, Lunarian Gods/Princesses, and other God Tiers like Kanako, Hecatia, et cetera would qualify. Shinki especially, since she controls the Makai.

High Tiers would recieve Class Z/Multi-stellar. Case-by-case eval would be necessary on this end though, since LS calcs are all over the place. Nitori for example gets higher LS because of her Machinery, not by herself. Class Z is from Yumemi's moon moving calc in Touhou 3.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Doremy god Tier? But what about Zun declaring that she is a weak Youkai

 

[Quibster]

Doremy god Tier? But what about Zun declaring that she is a weak Youkai

ZUN didn't declare that she was weak verbatim. The context for this is in Strange Creators of Outer World/AoCF interview; which, I'll be using the Touhou Wiki's translation here.

Main context for this was discussing the writing behind AoCF and the process of writing Doremy in. ZUN made a comment about how one wouldn't picture a Baku (the type of Youkai that Doremy is designed after) as a particularly strong Youkai, strictly in a design sense. In context, I don't believe ZUN meant to imply that she's significantly weak.

 

[Deidalius]

BTW, are there characters other than Shinki that have a stat that hasn't been updated to how other character profiles are? I think I can probably fix all of that.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

ZUN didn't necessarily declare that she was weak verbatim. The context for this is in Strange Creators of Outer World/AoCF interview; which, I'll be using the Touhou Wiki's translation here.

The context for this was discussing the writing behind AoCF and the process of writing Doremy in. ZUN made a comment about how one wouldn't picture a Baku (the type of Youkai that Doremy is designed after) as a particularly strong Youkai, strictly in a design sense. In context, I don't believe ZUN meant to imply that she's significantly weak.

I sincerely believe that this can have several interpretations. So idk

 

[Quibster]

I sincerely believe that this can have several interpretations. So idk

That's fair.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

BTW, are there characters other than Shinki that have a stat that hasn't been updated to how other character profiles are? I think I can probably fix all of that.

Rinnosuke has a scale of low 2-C possible 2-C with weapons like the mini-hakkero, when in fact it should be full 2-C

that low 2-C rating I don't know where it came from as the mini-hakkero is currently 2-C in the wiki.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Also, in Sakuya profile in her speed justification, it is mentioned that she is stated to move faster than light. But that should be removed since it has nothing to do with her justification of infinite speed, it is just an FTL statement that is not even supported by a scan

 

[Deidalius]

Lowkey, how do people with jobs do CRTs and stuff like that? It's all so time-consuming. Maybe I am whining like a bitch, but I am so bad at time management.

Anyway, I haven't progressed much in such a simple CRT. I will see if I can finish it tomorrow because it's pretty late.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I know, making a CRT even if you think it's simple is very exhausting

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lowkey, how do people with jobs do CRTs and stuff like that? It's all so time-consuming. Maybe I am whining like a bitch, but I am so bad at time management.

Kid named sandbox:

 

[Deidalius]

Kid named sandbox:

I think I will just use Google Docs

 

[Deidalius]

Tomorrow I will elaborate something that fits more to my standards with scans and all. (I might go grab the scans myself)

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Yeah

Confirm if you will use this or not, as I plan to use it too lol

Long as it's alright

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Tomorrow I will elaborate something that fits more to my standards with scans and all. (I might go grab the scans myself)

If Shinki has Stellar LS, this would make Reimu, Marisa, Mima and Yuuka also get it since they fought against it and are comparable

And if that's the case, pretty much the entire cast of pc 98 and a bunch of other 2-C characters would also get Stellar LS by scaling Reimu, I guess

 

[Deidalius]

If Shinki has Stellar LS, this would make Reimu, Marisa, Mima and Yuuka also get it since they fought against it and are comparable

And if that's the case, pretty much the entire cast of pc 98 and a bunch of other 2-C characters would also get Stellar LS by scaling Reimu, I guess

I don't want to make changes that big rn, just fix small stuff. I don't wanna change the scaling chain. Yet.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I don't want to make changes that big rn, just fix small stuff. I don't wanna change the scaling chain. Yet.

Well, in that case you just propose to change the Lifting strength of Shinki and Chiyuri to unknown like the rest of pc98 characters

 

[Diabul]

Doremy.txt

Doesn't half of the scaling chain collapse if Doremy is a god tier? I thought most 2-C characters who don't scale to Tenshi/Shion & Joon get their 2-C ratings by scaling above Doremy. Btw, Shimmy also says that Doremy doesn't seem like a big shot in GoU.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Ngl Quibster is the only person I've seen who interprets Zun statement of Doremy "being weak" differently lmao. But yes, if Doremy is a god tier the scaling chain would go to waste

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't half of the scaling chain collapse if Doremy is a god tier?

Pretty much yes.

Though tbh where's the statement about Meiling not being a "particularly strong Youkai" either? Because a LOT of characters are High 6-A solely because of "huh shouldn't be that far from Meiling" with no scans tbf.

 

[Deidalius]

Honestly, I think Doremy being a god tier makes sense due to her feats and stuff. Especially if you consider dreams to be spacetimes, she should be really strong. If Doremy is weak, then pretty much any mid-tier character with decent feats can upscale.

But if Doremy is weak, I can wank everyone...

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Honestly, I think Doremy being a god tier makes sense due to her feats and stuff. Especially if you consider dreams to be spacetimes, she should be really strong.

Well, Zun himself take the fact of ruling dreams are not a big deal, since they are just dreams. Look at quibster lmage again

 

[Deidalius]

Well, Zun himself take the fact of ruling dreams are not a big deal, since they are just dreams. Look at quibster lmage again

Yeah, but in this site we accept the dreams as infinite sized spacetimes.

And everyone relevant scales.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Yeah, but in this site we accept the dreams as infinite sized spacetimes.

And everyone relevant scales.

Sure, for power scallers that's an amazing feat. But for Zun it's not, he's not a power scaller and most likely didn't even take into account that dreams were infinite space-time when he said that

And the fact that after saying that, he said that one doesn't picture baku as strong, makes it clear that Zun believes Doremy is not that strong, even though under our power scaller logic she is. So considering Doremy a god tier just because his feats are amazing while the creator believes otherwise, makes no sense

Zun simply does not know how powerful he created Doremy, something very common in fiction

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sure, for power scallers that's an amazing feat. But for Zun it's not, he's not a power scaller and most likely didn't even take into account that dreams were infinite space-time when he said that

Tbh I don't think this is a good logic.

If your entire source of Tier 2 scaling is a single WoG statement when you have no feats, scaling or statements that are remotely close to that, then stuff becomes suspicious tbh.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Tbh I don't think this is a good logic.

If your entire source of Tier 2 scaling is a single WoG statement when you have no feats, scaling or statements that are remotely close to that, then stuff becomes suspicious tbh.

And the thing is that Touhou power scalling is more based on statements than feats.

When did Yukari destroy gensokyo? Literally that's just a statement that she can but never has.

Humans with no feats like Akyuu or Kosuzu, or worse, all humans in Gensokyo scales to 8-B just because of statements that humans are stronger than fairies

Hecatia is scaled as the strongest 2hou only because of a statement by Zun.

And most importantly, many youkais scale to hight 6-A just because of a statement that the giant catfish could shake the earth and destroy the surface with Meiling power, but never has, we literally already have a whole hight 6-A scaling based on a statement that could easily be a hyperbole, I don't see why having a 2-C scaling based on a statement from Zun who is the creator would be wrong, since literally Touhou scales because of statements rather than feats

Btw, as another user said even Sukuna underestimates Doremy.

 

[Diabul]

It's still weird though, Dream World stuff has always come across wonky to me. Assuming that every single dream Doremy throws containing every single realm feels iffy. Though, I don't really have anything to say against it other than playing on anti-feats.

Excluding Dream Dwellers, dreams themselves have never been treated (afaik) impressive compared to, say, Tenshi's Heaven shaking feat. Both ZUN and characters just go "they are just dreams" when it comes to that. Either they consider destroying/creating/throwing these dreams that contain the whole cosmology unimpressive, or dreams really don't mean much.

then pretty much any mid-tier character with decent feats can upscale.

But if Doremy is weak, I can wank everyone...

Isn't that already applied though? Every character who is stated to be "strong" becomes 2-C. For example, Hatate is 2-C because tengu are stated to be top-class youkai. But then Momiji is still 6-A for some reason... These profiles are really a mess, Nue still has universal range because youkai exist above the physical layer or something.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Excluding Dream Dwellers, dreams themselves have never been treated (afaik) impressive compared to, say, Tenshi's Heaven shaking feat. Both ZUN and characters just go "they are just dreams" when it comes to that. Either they consider destroying/creating/throwing these dreams that contain the whole cosmology unimpressive, or dreams really don't mean much.

In Lore that is nothing, in power scalling it is impressive.

What I think is that Zun simply didn't make Touhou with power scalling in mind, that's why there are nonsensical things like Zun and the characters believing that throwing, manipulating or destroying infinite space-times is nothing. But inevitably this would make everyone who is treated as really strong, to scale to her since she is treated as "weak" in lore.

 

[Deidalius]

It's still weird though, Dream World stuff has always come across wonky to me. Assuming that every single dream Doremy throws containing every single realm feels iffy. Though, I don't really have anything to say against it other than playing on anti-feats.

Excluding Dream Dwellers, dreams themselves have never been treated (afaik) impressive compared to, say, Tenshi's Heaven shaking feat. Both ZUN and characters just go "they are just dreams" when it comes to that. Either they consider destroying/creating/throwing these dreams that contain the whole cosmology unimpressive, or dreams really don't mean much.

Funnily enough, I think Touhou can still be Low Multiversal in this wiki or even some degree of Tier 1 without the dream world stuff. It might not even be that much of a downgrade. Though it might affect the scaling chain...

sn't that already applied though? Every character who is stated to be "strong" becomes 2-C. For example, Hatate is 2-C because tengu are stated to be top-class youkai. But then Momiji is still 6-A for some reason... These profiles are really a mess, Nue still has universal range because youkai exist above the physical layer or something.

Could I give every youkai universal range because of that? Can that be fixed with a simple CRT or is that a thing that only Nue has? If it's a racial ability...

Also, I think the profiles are fine, it's just that some characters get love and others get forgotten and people don't even apply some upgrade CRTs to them. I am pretty sure there are still Low 2-C characters even though i am certain they all got upgraded to Low multiversal.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Funnily enough, I think Touhou can still be Low Multiversal in this wiki or even some degree of Tier 1 without the dream world stuff. It might not even be that much of a downgrade. Though it might affect the scaling chain...

Well even without Doremy scalling, Touhou is still strong.

For example, if Reimu doesn't scale to Doremy, she would still be in Tier 2 since she defeated Shinki who created Makai, and defeated and caused the "strange feat of pain" to Mokou who is comparable to Kaguya who created the infinite corridor, etc.

 

[Deidalius]

Well even without Doremy scalling, Touhou is still strong.

For example, if Reimu doesn't scale to Doremy, she would still be in Tier 2 since she defeated Shinki who created Makai, and defeated and caused the "strange feat of pain" to Mokou who is comparable to Kaguya who created the infinite corridor, etc.

Pretty sure we also accepted merging the nether with the overworld as low multiversal too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And the thing is that Touhou power scalling is more based on statements than feats.

And?

When did Yukari destroy gensokyo? Literally that's just a statement that she can but never has.

Humans with no feats like Akyuu or Kosuzu, or worse, all humans in Gensokyo scales to 8-B just because of statements that humans are stronger than fairies

These are made in-verse so whatever.

Hecatia is scaled as the strongest 2hou only because of a statement by Zun.

That has no contradictions so that's ok.

Plus a statement regarding a single character would definitely get less scrutiny compared to one that affects half the verse lol.

a whole hight 6-A scaling based on a statement that could easily be a hyperbole

It is what it is then.

I don't see why having a 2-C scaling based on a statement from Zun who is the creator would be wrong, since literally Touhou scales because of statements rather than feats

As said above, I'd prioritize in-verse statements over WoG ones ngl.

 

[Diabul]

Funnily enough, I think Touhou can still be Low Multiversal in this wiki or even some degree of Tier 1 without the dream world stuff. It might not even be that much of a downgrade. Though it might affect the scaling chain...

Main 2-C feat is from Tenshi and Joon & Shion. Reimu individually defeated Shion, so, the scaling doesn't seem to change that much.

Could I give every youkai universal range because of that? Can that be fixed with a simple CRT or is that a thing that only Nue has? If it's a racial ability...

The universal range thing should've been removed from every youkai with this thread. But Nue had been forgotten, it seems like.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

As said above, I'd prioritize in-verse statements over WoG ones ngl.

Shinmy also says Doremy is not a big deal and is just a dream Just like Zun did, so if there are in-verse statements that support Zun statement

 

[Deidalius]

Main 2-C feat is from Tenshi and Joon & Shion. Reimu individually defeated Shion, so, the scaling doesn't seem to change that much.

The universal range thing should've been removed from every youkai with this thread. But Nue had been forgotten, it seems like.

Awesome, then I'll just say that should be removed in a small CRT.