Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

[Deidalius]

I wonder how high Touhou could potentially be scaled if that standard is applied?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I wonder how high Touhou could potentially be scaled if that standard is applied?

Street level.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, since I'm bored, give me a character's name and I'll tell you some of what they're getting from the revisions.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Also, since I'm bored, give me a character's name and I'll tell you some of what they're getting from the revisions.

Youmu Or Kokoro

And I don't expect anyone to jump the gun. I imagine the major threads would mostly be done by you.

 

[Deidalius]

Street level.

Also, since I'm bored, give me a character's name and I'll tell you some of what they're getting from the revisions.

Koishi Komeiji

Fumo Koishi GIF - Fumo Koishi Koishi Fumo - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Youmu

Well, for starters, I plan to separate her P&A into 2 keys - one for her human half, the other for her phantom half. This is mainly because there are a couple of inconsistencies that'd crop up if you treated them as the same entity (like her human half going insane when exposed to the true moon while her phantom half was unaffected, or her phantom half transcending life and death while her human half can still die). Aside from that, she gets some pretty decent stuff, although nothing too special. She's unaffected by Mystia's song, can defeat people without noticing their presence, analyze attacks, or cause death on contact. Yyyyyeah most stuff is just backing feats for her enhanced senses ngl (granted, they're pretty good feats), although she'll get some VERY good upgrades once I revise phantom physiology.

Also, PMiSS is wrong about Youmu's phantom half not being cold, as even Cirno notes how cold it is around her.

Kokoro

Would you be surprised if I said Kokoro actually had better stuff than Youmu? Her empathic manipulation is a lot stronger than people give it credit for, to the point where her losing her mask of hope would've eventually removed all emotion from the human village forever. More interestingly than that, though, is Mamizou repeatedly pointing out that prior to gaining a new mask of hope, Kokoro had lost her sense of self - pretty notable, since youkai cease to exist without their sense of self. Mamizou even implies that Kokoro wouldn't even be a menreiki youkai until gaining that sense of self. This has really interesting implications that are supported elsewhere, although I'll probably wrap it into the youkai physiology revisions. Additionally, her desires can create new Occult Balls or urban legends, she can see in all directions, and create new masks from other people's emotions.

And I don't expect anyone to jump the gun. I imagine the major threads would mostly be done by you.

Never hurts to make sure, especially since the previous tier 1 threads were huge disasters.

By the way, did I ever invite you to the new scaling server? Sorry if I forgot lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Koishi Komeiji

Where the fuck do I even begin with her lol

Starting simple, even when gathering popularity during HM made Koishi visible (which is admittedly a weakness for her), her attacks are considered unreadable. She can absorb danmaku, manifest unconscious thoughts into reality, or call forth false memories.

But the real big thing is how she lacks the five skandhas. Effectively, Koishi closing off her conscious mind also removed her soul (which we know to be her living spirit, as Reimu's consciousness in WaHH is referred to as one, and Koishi cannot dream, which requires a living spirit to do so), which is composed of the five Buddhist skandhas - form, feeling, conception, impulses, and discernment. These make up the soul and all matter in existence, thereby representing reality itself. So... not only does this make Koishi's NEP stupidly broken, but it also makes a lot of soulhax in the verse extremely powerful, affecting not just the mind and soul, but physical matter, perception, senses, awareness... basically anything you can argue the skandhas as being, which is a lot. This also supports the soul being a more fundamental force of reality, but this is far from the only evidence.

Mostly though, I've just been focusing on gathering supporting evidence for her NEP/IR.

 

[Deidalius]

Where the **** do I even begin with her lol

Starting simple, even when gathering popularity during HM made Koishi visible (which is admittedly a weakness for her), her attacks are considered unreadable. She can absorb danmaku, manifest unconscious thoughts into reality, or call forth false memories.

But the real big thing is how she lacks the five skandhas. Effectively, Koishi closing off her conscious mind also removed her soul (which we know to be her living spirit, as Reimu's consciousness in WaHH is referred to as one, and Koishi cannot dream, which requires a living spirit to do so), which is composed of the five Buddhist skandhas - form, feeling, conception, impulses, and discernment. These make up the soul and all matter in existence, thereby representing reality itself. So... not only does this make Koishi's NEP stupidly broken, but it also makes a lot of soulhax in the verse extremely powerful, affecting not just the mind and soul, but physical matter, perception, senses, awareness... basically anything you can argue the skandhas as being, which is a lot. This also supports the soul being a more fundamental force of reality, but this is far from the only evidence.

Mostly though, I've just been focusing on gathering supporting evidence for her NEP/IR.

Awesome, I don't know what IR is but all I am understanding is that Koishi stans are going to eat good.

KoishiDancing.png

 

[Angelzewolf]

Well, for starters, I plan to separate her P&A into 2 keys - one for her human half, the other for her phantom half. This is mainly because there are a couple of inconsistencies that'd crop up if you treated them as the same entity (like her human half going insane when exposed to the true moon while her phantom half was unaffected, or her phantom half transcending life and death while her human half can still die). Aside from that, she gets some pretty decent stuff, although nothing too special. She's unaffected by Mystia's song, can defeat people without noticing their presence, analyze attacks, or cause death on contact. Yyyyyeah most stuff is just backing feats for her enhanced senses ngl (granted, they're pretty good feats), although she'll get some VERY good upgrades once I revise phantom physiology.

Also, PMiSS is wrong about Youmu's phantom half not being cold, as even Cirno notes how cold it is around her.

At the very least the two halves will be separate. It was kind of pain trying to figure out what applied to which or if it applied to both. I didn't expect much for Youmu. Even the tiny bit brings a smile to my face.

Would you be surprised if I said Kokoro actually had better stuff than Youmu? Her empathic manipulation is a lot stronger than people give it credit for, to the point where her losing her mask of hope would've eventually removed all emotion from the human village forever. More interestingly than that, though, is Mamizou repeatedly pointing out that prior to gaining a new mask of hope, Kokoro had lost her sense of self - pretty notable, since youkai cease to exist without their sense of self. Mamizou even implies that Kokoro wouldn't even be a menreiki youkai until gaining that sense of self. This has really interesting implications that are supported elsewhere, although I'll probably wrap it into the youkai physiology revisions. Additionally, her desires can create new Occult Balls or urban legends, she can see in all directions, and create new masks from other people's emotions.

I knew about the humans, but the Mamizou bit didn't really register for me... probably cause back when I first played, I wasn't actually into powerscaling.

Never hurts to make sure, especially since the previous tier 1 threads were huge disasters.

By the way, did I ever invite you to the new scaling server? Sorry if I forgot lol

I didn't even know there was another one. Admittedly I don't see myself being all that helpful, especially at the stage you're at. I imagine whatever I find, you already have, lol.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I didn't even know there was another one. Admittedly I don't see myself being all that helpful, especially at the stage you're at. I imagine whatever I find, you already have, lol.

No worries, a couple people are mostly inactive, and finding new stuff is just half the battle - finding lost media is a huge focus for right now, and it's always nice to have people look over what other people have written. We'll also need a LOT of effort put into the profile remakes, which includes some more aesthetic stuff like quotes, summaries, and galleries, help with which is always appreciated as well.

Really though, the main determining factor is whether or not you want to join lol

 

[Angelzewolf]

No worries, a couple people are mostly inactive, and finding new stuff is just half the battle - finding lost media is a huge focus for right now, and it's always nice to have people look over what other people have written. We'll also need a LOT of effort put into the profile remakes, which includes some more aesthetic stuff like quotes, summaries, and galleries, help with which is always appreciated as well.

Really though, the main determining factor is whether or not you want to join lol

Ah. Then uh... sure, it'd be nice being around people who like Touhou and keeping up with stuff. Pretty sure I've officially annoyed most of my friends with my Touhou talk

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

The goda are going 1-A I guess?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The goda are going 1-A I guess?

Please, let's not do this until Ultima's thread is wrapped up and we get a more solid understanding of what does and does not qualify. Specifically, by watching other people jump the gun and fail spectacularly (my favorite VSBW past time).

Ah. Then uh... sure, it'd be nice being around people who like Touhou and keeping up with stuff. Pretty sure I've officially annoyed most of my friends with my Touhou talk

Idr if I ever got your Discord before, DM me and I'll add you.

 

[Shmooply]

You whippersnappers are going to enjoy your hax veggies, and maybe then we will give you some tier upgrade meat and perhaps even a smurf and layers dessert.

Yo @Shmooply
I think I finally found the first part of the volume 4 bonus comic. It's in Chinese though lol

I also found some other stuff from the same source, interested to see what I can get from it (if anything).

I'll check if it's a different volume bonus later.

 

[Shmooply]

I'll check if it's a different volume bonus later.

nvm i got time right now lmao
Yeah, this seems to be what we've been looking for. There goes my only excuse to buy Touhou merch.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

That's like asking me to pick a favorite child.

That's literally applied to every franchises we like lel

I think Bougetsushou (as well as Imperishable Night) is my favorite "era" of Touhou. ZUN was truly in his element with characterization then, and we really haven't gotten anything since then that hits as hard as Mokou's backstory or Eirin talking about Reisen's name. So many characters are just an absolute joy to read about - Reimu's SSiB personality is by far my favorite, and I love the way she bounces off of everyone else. Revisiting SSiB also made me appreciate just how well written Eirin is (she's one of my all time faves now). It's no wonder why so many of my faves are from that era, and I really hope ZUN goes back to that sort of internal dialogue-based storytelling that was the centerpiece of CiLR. Its only flaw is how I don't think it stuck the landing with its intent for the Watatsuki sisters (being retroactively made into slave owners in FS was kind of a death sentence for them), but that's a small blemish on what I consider peak fiction. Not like other arcs are devoid of issues.

I also have a deep appreciation for ZUN's modern stuff, specifically everything focusing on the nature of chuunibyou. It shaped my personality more than Bougetsushou, which is saying a lot, and it's definitely a huge breath of fresh air in a landscape where media is dedicated to being as insincere as possible. There's not much else I can say about it lol, I'm just really happy with the current state of Touhou.

Pre-IN felt directionless (probably because ZUN intended to stop at IN), and the religious war arc just doesn't interest me a lot (although I do love SoPM and hope we get another print work in the same style as it). Of course, they're still peak in their own right.

IN saga from my views shared the same thought as your, it's really that amazing
As for PRE-IN being directionless, i can see why but PCB managed to made it's own despite we didn't knew what direction it'll went, that's make it amazing, and don't get me started on the whole traits and theme of it which i really praised it up to this days

Modern Touhou still has time to shape out especially with how direct it is with the current phenomenon on the real lifes and media, and that's good

Religious war arc being my fave is because how chaotic and fun the interaction and banters between the forces that clashed with it, i feel like we wouldn't get this kind of chaotic mess level of banters....... Unless Kanako is up to something again lel

Also, since I'm bored, give me a character's name and I'll tell you some of what they're getting from the revisions.

@Angelzewolf beated me to asked something with Youmu lel, so here are them:

• Ran
• Yuuma
• Saki
• Reisen

Wanted to add Hisami but she's still new

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's literally applied to every franchises we like lel

IN saga from my views shared the same thought as your, it's really that amazing
As for PRE-IN being directionless, i can see why but PCB managed to made it's own despite we didn't knew what direction it'll went, that's make it amazing, and don't get me started on the whole traits and theme of it which i really praised it up to this days

Modern Touhou still has time to shape out especially with how direct it is with the current phenomenon on the real lifes and media, and that's good

Religious war arc being my fave is because how chaotic and fun the interaction and banters between the forces that clashed with it, i feel like we wouldn't get this kind of chaotic mess level of banters....... Unless Kanako is up to something again lel

@Angelzewolf beated me to asked something with Youmu lel, so here are them:

• Ran
• Yuuma
• Saki
• Reisen

Wanted to add Hisami but she's still new

Four at once is pushing your luck, but I'll get to them later.

 

[Deidalius]

What's stopping people from jumping the gun and just trying again way later? If you have good arguments you should be able to wank a series after losing the first time.

Epic Battle Fantasy should be wanked to 1-A

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What's stopping people from jumping the gun and just trying again way later? If you have good arguments you should be able to wank a series after losing the first time.

Epic Battle Fantasy should be wanked to 1-A

The fact that having a rejected thread is going to severely affect people's perceptions of future threads using the same logic. In cases like this, there are always people saying things like "why is this thread open? wasn't it rejected before?", and we can't let that happen here. The worst case scenario is fucking up so severely that a discussion rule is passed to permanently bar us from trying again.

So yes, there are very good reasons as to why we should avoid doing any upgrades until much later on. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming known as "that one asshole who cucked us out of 1-A Touhou".

 

[Shmooply]

We had, like, what? Three failed threads, with all of them being rushed and nonsensical (looking at you @OnsokunoSonic).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We had, like, what? Three failed threads, with all of them being rushed and nonsensical (looking at you @OnsokunoSonic).

Hey now, don't leave out the GOAT Saikou...... he'll return to that low 1-C upgrade any day now.......

 

[Shmooply]

Hey now, don't leave out the GOAT Saikou...... he'll return to that low 1-C upgrade any day now.......

Saikou after posting a single paragraphs-long post filled with the most faulty reasoning known to man in an upgrade thread and then never returning:

 

[Deidalius]

The fact that having a rejected thread is going to severely affect people's perceptions of future threads using the same logic. In cases like this, there are always people saying things like "why is this thread open? wasn't it rejected before?", and we can't let that happen here. The worst case scenario is fucking up so severely that a discussion rule is passed to permanently bar us from trying again.

So yes, there are very good reasons as to why we should avoid doing any upgrades until much later on. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming known as "that one asshole who cucked us out of 1-A Touhou".

I see, this wiki works in mysterious and illogical ways. It seems to work more on feelings rather than objectivity. I can't see anything bad about trying to upgrade a verse again as long as you present better arguments.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So this exists.

I know some of yall may be tempted to immediately jump on the opportunity and try to get that coveted tier 1-A/0 rating based on some information I've previously shared. However, as we've learned before with this verse, trying to rush headfirst into tier 1 upgrades is an awful idea. So I am very strongly suggesting that everyone, both a part of the ongoing revisions and apart from them, avoid upgrading the verse to tier 1 until I give the go-ahead. This will give us the opportunity to see which verses will qualify after the revisions are passed, letting us use precedent cases to our advantage, as well as make sure that our evidence is as strong as it can possibly be - because god knows we'll need it.

I can't actually enforce this, but know that if you ignore my suggestion I WILL break into your home and kill you with hammers.

I saw that a lot of people have doubts, etc. (because I think that normal users won't read all that text, and those who do, I don't even know if they'll understand. Me included)

If this passes, I think the first few weeks will be chaos.

WARNING: Everything is guesswork out of my ass.

A lot of people will want this 1-A and will try to find any loophole to make an argument of R > f even if they have never used it before in the verse they are supporters of.


(Like Anos' supporters talking about this and already talking about him 1-A. Get ready Fujiwara lol)

So yes, try to wait. And see the arguments, what works and what doesn't. Otherwise they might end up failing from the beginning and left with a bad impression of "These arguments have already been rejected/this has already been rejected.

Also, why am I on this thread seemingly out of nowhere? I've never even played Tohou. Or did I play? I don't know.

 

[Shmooply]

Maybe you should try playing it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Maybe you should try playing it.

Is there a tohou girl who wears leather clothes, is Christian and uses a whip to beat others?

 

[Shmooply]

Uhh.
We got, like, a buddhist that throws daggers, I think that's Belmont-ish.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is there a tohou girl who wears leather clothes, is Christian and uses a whip to beat others?

No Christians in Touhou. Although Jesus does exist in canon.

Tragically, no Touhou characters wear leather or use whips either, although I'm just now realizing how sus this would all sound if I didn't know it was a Castlevania thing.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I saw that a lot of people have doubts, etc. (because I think that normal users won't read all that text, and those who do, I don't even know if they'll understand. Me included)

If this passes, I think the first few weeks will be chaos.

WARNING: Everything is guesswork out of my ass.

A lot of people will want this 1-A and will try to find any loophole to make an argument of R > f even if they have never used it before in the verse they are supporters of.

Mhm, I'm personally very interested to see how things go if this passes.

(Like Anos' supporters talking about this and already talking about him 1-A. Get ready Fujiwara lol)

Where is this? I need to prepare to put them back in their place, they've been getting too confident recently.

So yes, try to wait. And see the arguments, what works and what doesn't. Otherwise they might end up failing from the beginning and left with a bad impression of "These arguments have already been rejected/this has already been rejected.

Yeah, I'm currently thinking of how I wanna present my arguments when the time comes. In terms of anti-feats, there are only 2 big ones that could be an issue, but I should have everything else covered. Won't know for sure until we see other people try first, of course.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

No Christians in Touhou. Although Jesus does exist in canon.

Tragically, no Touhou characters wear leather or use whips either, although I'm just now realizing how sus this would all sound if I didn't know it was a Castlevania thing.

Castlevania? Obviously I'm talking about Rusty from NEC PC-9800

Does Jesus exist in Tohou????

Where is this? I need to prepare to put them back in their place, they've been getting too confident recently.

Here

Yeah, I'm currently thinking of how I wanna present my arguments when the time comes. In terms of anti-feats, there are only 2 big ones that could be an issue, but I should have everything else covered. Won't know for sure until we see other people try first, of course.

Apparently, another anti-feat would be fiction becoming real.

Like Looney Tunes going to the real/animator world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Castlevania? Obviously I'm talking about Rusty from NEC PC-9800

Damn cool Koumajou Densetsu reference

Does Jesus exist in Tohou????

yea

Here

Dereck seems like he's joking, but I wouldn't put it past them ngl

Apparently, another anti-feat would be fiction becoming real.

Like Looney Tunes going to the real/animator world.

Yeah, that's where the big anti-feats come in. I... may have a workaround, but it's deeply rooted in verse mechanics and I'm not sure if the new system is equipped to handle scenarios like it. I'm having to completely change my approach to the endgame of the revisions, which... isn't as bad as it sounds. Unironically kind of fun to reinterpret a bunch of old scans and try to work them into a completely different CRT than what I intended.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Reisen

You get one (1) because I'm eepy.

Reisen gets a LOT of good stuff, to the point where I'm honestly surprised she's missing so much? For instance, trying to read her wavelengths induces headaches, she can nullify spell cards, or turn her illusions into reality. Her illusions still fuck with people in stopped time, she can see Koishi and see through her unconscious movement, duplicate herself, induce madness with basic danmaku attacks, tank being doused in corrosive spit, she's unable to be detected by Star's ESP, and she can negate existence... which may have enough range to affect the entire world.

For some reason, despite the Lunar Capital's weird probability hax bullshit, Sagume is still shocked that Reisen coming back to the capital was even a possibility... which means viewing and altering countless possibilities still can't predict what Reisen will do, I guess??

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Damn cool Koumajou Densetsu reference

yea

Dereck seems like he's joking, but I wouldn't put it past them ngl

I think a Maou Gakuin supporter is never joking when it comes to wank Anos.

 

[Deidalius]

Lol, why did the beef between Fuji and Maou Gakuin fans even start? Are they lying wankers or something?

 

[Dereck03]

I think a Maou Gakuin supporter is never joking when it comes to wank Anos.

We don't joke.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We don't joke.

I agree with deleting Touhou FRA (it gets swept by Anos anyways so there's no point in keeping it here).

 

[Dereck03]

I agree with deleting Touhou FRA (it gets swept by Anos anyways so there's no point in keeping it here).

Tf did you smoke? Just look at the weakest 2hou character smh...

 

[Deidalius]

Cirno

Cirno (チルノ Chiruno) es un hada del hielo. Mientras que ella es descrita como una jefa débil en la serie Touhou, si consideramos el poder de las hadas normales (que aparecen como enemigos regulares) podemos decir ciertamente que ella es excepcionalmente fuerte para su especie. Su personalidad es...

ficcion-sin-limites.fandom.com

The Anus Voldigoad verse KNEELS to Outerversal Cirno (Lowball)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Tf did you smoke? Just look at the weakest 2hou character smh...

High 1-B? Fodderkari gets swept hard, you hate to see it.

 

[Dereck03]

High 1-B? Fodderkari gets swept hard, you hate to see it.

Fodder? Okay, what about this? Stop coping.