• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Iamunanimousinthat

Iamunanimousinthat

Messages
3,510
Reaction score
1,373
Since this was made a staff discussion, and most users can't comment on it, I thought it would be good, for the rest of us, to be able to speak their thoughts on it. It seems like something like this could potentially, change the tiering system and affect majority of the profiles on this site.

What are people's thoughts?

Here is the thread for those who don't know.
 
It's gonna be interesting to see which verse will make the first move after this gets passed. I may be able to argue 1-A for my own stuff if it passes, but I'm going to wait and see what other verses get accepted first.

It's gonna be really funny watching people try and fail to get 1-A though.
 
And to speak more on what was said, I do have some issues/questions.

A) Why do we assume the that qualitative difference between levels/layers in a fiction would make the higher layer Tier 0, when we can just as easily assume the higher layer makes the lower layers, Tier 11-C or even lower than that, a hypothetical 11-D or tier 12?

B) There is a logical flaw that will come about when it comes to Hierarchies of R>F. In the post, Ultima compared the lower layer in a case of R>F transcendence to be equal to nothing, and equated it to an empty set. The point of a hierarchy is that a layer gets its value from the layers below it. Currently, the baseline layer is equated to 4D, the layer above it to 5D, and so on an so on.

If what was pointed out implemented, a layer would render all layers under it the value of nothing, aka an empty set, and be rendered to have a value of nothing, by the layers above it. How can everything be equated to an empty set, but each layer simultaneously have a quantitative value that separates it from the other layers.

The only way I see this would be all R>F would be equalized no matter what. And I know people won't like or accept that.
 
the new tier system would seem to presuppose the base layer of reality is 3D, however, the current tier system also does that and it has to be done that way otherwise one could argue that "your verse is 11-C because it's drawn on paper, whereas my verse has explicitly mentioned the term 3D so it's stronger." (something I've actually encountered btw). and as far as logical coherence goes, I'd much rather assume the base reality is 3D like ours than allow for qualitative and quantitative differences to be equalised under faulty logic being engrained into the system on which we operate.
 
I think in application, Ultima's system would be so strict the amount of 1-A verses would probably decrease due to math getting uber nerfed, as reality fiction differences being equated or treated as dimensional analogues as opposed to reality-unreality is far more common.

I don't think this will make every verse with reality fiction stuff contenders for tier 1-A, I think the actual standards for reaching that level through this new system would likely be too strict if anything.
 
"The lower layer is literal unreality/nonexistence while the higher layer is reality/existence." would be the criteria as Ultima said. Going just by that, any character in the higher layer that interacts with the lower layer would be an anti-feat and disqualify the verse for R>F transcendence. You could see a bunch of infinite hierarchies becomes just regular infinite multiverses.
 
About that
There isn't a single type of "layer"

Summarizing, there's both dimensional layers of higher dimensional values and metaphysical layers of undimensional values.

The standard reality is assumed to be physical and existing in what we already accept as 3+1 space-time dimensions.

Higher physical reality would still be 4+1, 4+2, and so on. Even if r>f is used as a metaphor to represent dimensional difference.

Truly metaphysical transcendence/r>f/qualitative superiority is a completely different type of hierarchy that generalizes any n-dimensional space from what is "physical/fiction" as qualitatively not being a thing that affects the higher layer.

So no, just by using r>f or metaphysical elements won't be enough for Tier 1-A if the series doesn't depict a true physical transcendence.

It'll be mostly case-by-case depending in the nature of each individual franchise and their cosmology. Sometimes it'll be very clear, sometimes it'll be very complex and contradictory.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Since this was made a staff discussion, and most users can't comment on it, I thought it would be good, for the rest of us, to be able to speak their thoughts on it. It seems like something like this could potentially, change the tiering system and affect majority of the profiles on this site.

What are people's thoughts?

Here is the thread for those who don't know.
Click to expand...
I didn't understand anything.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
A lot. By going by what Ultima pointed out, any verse that utilizes R>F, would jump to 1-A or even tier 0.
Click to expand...
This seems to me like it won't work.

Unless the qualifications for R > f were quite strict.

But it would be fun to have Looney Tunes guys tier 1-A/0.
 
Executor_N0 said:
So no, just by using r>f or metaphysical elements won't be enough for Tier 1-A if the series doesn't depict a true physical transcendence.
Click to expand...
So where will that leave verses that will not qualify for the new 1-A, and don't have any mentions of dimensionality? Stuck in tier 2?
 
One thing I'm particularly curious about is whether or not cosmology wiping feats would be considered anti-feats. A character who simply exits their reality and starts fucking around in higher layers a la Bugs Bunny wouldn't qualify based on what I've been hearing, but does that extend to characters who have enough range and power to destroy everything in one go? What about for characters who don't necessarily occupy the higher reality, but were shown to have created everything (including the higher reality) at the beginning of existence... and what about those who don't have those feats, but scale to those who do?

This extends to things like concept manipulation, as there may be cases where characters from lower realities can manipulate abstractions that make up and govern reality on all layers. Would this also be an anti-feat?
 
Last edited:
Iamunanimousinthat said:
If the non-real can interact with the real, then that should be a big anti-feat.
Click to expand...
Not really what I meant, I was wondering how we'd treat concepts that exist in both the real and unreal, governing both, with unreal characters being able to manipulate those concepts (not necessarily affecting the real in the process).
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not really what I meant, I was wondering how we'd treat concepts that exist in both the real and unreal, governing both, with unreal characters being able to manipulate those concepts (not necessarily affecting the real in the process).
Click to expand...
That’s a good question. I guess you can argue that there are two versions of the concept one unreal and one real. But if the story insists that there is only one version, someone could make an argument that since both the real and unreal participate in the same concept its an anti-feat.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
That’s a good question. I guess you can argue that there are two versions of the concept one unreal and one real. But if the story insists that there is only one version, someone could make an argument that since both the real and unreal participate in the same concept its an anti-feat.
Click to expand...
...That seems odd to me ngl, guess it's just one of those things I'll have to wait and see. Although I'm curious how this would work in verses that don't really give that sort of elaboration on universal concepts.
 
Robo432343 said:
give me 1 bro
Click to expand...

Based on this from Ultima:

Thirdly: Even if the above were true, not all cases of qualitative superiorities revolving around a "unreality vs reality" dynamic imply any sort of "relational power." For example: Suppose you have a cosmology where the world in truth is illusory, and then the Supreme God is the "true" reality above this. In such a case, the God is not an ordinary being from its own viewpoint, and nor is it something simply participating in a higher state of reality. Rather, it is the higher state itself and so cannot be separated from it.
Click to expand...

Arceus may get 1-A based on current profile but will lose his Low 1-C rating for his avatars.
 
I am super super curious to see what'll happen if this goes through. This is a pretty big change. Granted, the characters who are 1-A now are still basically the same power-wise, we'd just now treat these characters that actually qualify for a real r>f transcendence as above them.
 
The 1-A that seemed elusive becomes a jumble of 5D characters. A shame. A tiering system parallel to quantitive superiority was my first assumption but a couple years later some other parallel system might be created to accommodate more fiction and then another one, etc.

If it does go through, Sage Monarch characters may qualify. If successful, it would tier Yang Qi above his strongest version from another story, which is forcing me to reread one or both stories ¯\(ᴗ ͜ʖ ᴗ)/¯
 
If these R > f standards are not very strict, I think that in the same week there will be more than 10 crts of people wanting to put their verse in 1-A or more with R > f even if they have never used it before.

In fact, even if it's very strict, I think it will happen.

Man, if most of the staff members don't want to touch Low 1-C and don't even want to be called for anything that goes to that level, imagine if R > f 1-A/+ was approved.

Good thing I'm not a member of the staff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

  • Locked
VS Battles Is Nonsense / Delete My Account
Replies
6
Views
3K
Dragonite007
Dragonite007
demonwarrior2266
Application of Ultima's CRT
Replies
4
Views
2K
Hypertornado099
Hypertornado099
  • Locked
What would debunk the basis of the VSBW tiering system
Replies
6
Views
2K
Urshani
Boy.Line
Qualification issues.
Replies
7
Views
919
TheOrangeGuy09
TheOrangeGuy09
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System
12 13 14
Replies
530
Views
183K
Ultima_Reality
Ultima_Reality
Back
Top