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Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

Did ZUN say anything about historical figures that certain characters are based on their relation to Touhou's lore?
Like, it wasn't stated why Futo and Tojiko held grudges against each other but ,if historically accurate, Futo should've married with Tojika's father (hence why the grudge).
Can we use this logic to expand a character's cannon backstory, like how Eirin (Yagokoro-Omoikane-no-Mikoto) was the one who persuaded Sagume (Ame-no-Sagume) to join the Lunar Capital?
 
I mean, if we're doing that, then we might as well solidify certain things that are only "maybes" on the wiki itself, like Tewi being the White Rabbit of Inaba. And while I think we should do that personally, I'm not sure if we should do that for everything; if nothing else the Lunarians get weird and inbreedy if I recall correctly.
 
While i also agree we shouldn't translate every one last bit of history to fit inside Touhou (good example is Hecate and Hecatia), but characters like Sagume don't have much of a backstory themselves and Sagume is an obvious paralel to Ame-no-Sagume.
It would also explain Sagume's cut off wing, and maybe her weird bs physiology (Heavenly God, Earthly God, Divine Spirit, Amanojaku, Lunarian).
All we need to expand some characters' cannon backstory is a confirmation from ZUN.
 
AdamHkureiJanitor said:
While i also agree we shouldn't translate every one last bit of history to fit inside Touhou (good example is Hecate and Hecatia), but characters like Sagume don't have much of a backstory themselves and Sagume is an obvious paralel to Ame-no-Sagume.
It would also explain Sagume's cut off wing, and maybe her weird bs physiology (Heavenly God, Earthly God, Divine Spirit, Amanojaku, Lunarian).
All we need to expand some characters' cannon backstory is a confirmation from ZUN.
Click to expand...
Paralel doesn't mean to follow the exact same the main counterpart do, otherwise Sakuya as a goddess in secret (Konohana-Sakuyahime) will be a real deal
Even if Sagume is the obvious paralel to Ame-no-Sagume, there's going to be a lot of changes to fit Zun storylines and plot
Basically "rules of thumb": Every Myth/Legend/Tales/Historical in fiction media will be altered/changed to fit the writter and consumers fantasies
I'm in same boat about canon backstories expand but knowing Zun and the points i said, it might be a lil bit unlikely
 
w8uiz9fv41za1.jpg

This is were I stole this meme from.
Yorihime's over-hated. She is one of the best Touhou characters in my opinion.
 
I think people hating Yorihime for thinking her to be overpowered is just objectively silly. She doesn't even curbstomp the protagonists or anything either. Remilia physically manhandles her and leaves her beaten and bruised and only won because she had the Anti-Vampire god on hand lol. Sakuya could have killed her on three separate occasions and disarmed her. Reimu almost killed her and everyone on the moon. Marisa didn't even want to fight in the first place. She "beat" all of them but it wasn't like a clear godstomp.

I think hating Yorihime for not being fond of her character is fine. I think she's chronically under-explored and has an insane amount of missed potential when it comes to a potential rivalry with Reimu. She feels half-baked and the fact she never reappeared or was followed up on feels like a huge wasted opportunity.
 
ZUN laid the groundwork for what could've been a continued rivalry for the main protagonist and an exploration of how the Lunar Capital isolates and rejects anything not fully in tune with their ideals and then went "that's enough work for now, time to never revisit this idea". It's almost comical how he refuses to bring the Watatsukis back, even in shit like LoLK.

It's the only case where I'd say Touhou's writing is actively bad (and even then, "bad" is maybe a bit harsh since the little writing that is there is actually pretty good).
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
ZUN laid the groundwork for what could've been a continued rivalry for the main protagonist and an exploration of how the Lunar Capital isolates and rejects anything not fully in tune with their ideals and then went "that's enough work for now, time to never revisit this idea". It's almost comical how he refuses to bring the Watatsukis back, even in shit like LoLK.

It's the only case where I'd say Touhou's writing is actively bad (and even then, "bad" is maybe a bit harsh since the little writing that is there is actually pretty good).
Click to expand...
I'd say its more like wasted potential rather than outright bad?... Like what we have here is a solid groundworks, but its just never followed up on.

I do think the ending of the story is poorly handled. Reimu being kept on the moon for like 30 days and coming back and being like "oh yeah it was nice up there I suppose" is so ******* lame and uninteresting and definitely could have been handled in a more interesting way, like her noticing how fake and intentioned her good treatment is or seeing little glimpses of the poor treatment of the rabbits, or seeing how vastly opposed to Gensokyo's way of life the Lunar Capitol is and how it bothered her. It kinda feels like a full cop out.

I dont think I can really point out any directly bad writing in Touhou outside of that though. Anything else is just "I would've handled this differently" or "this is paced a little weirdly/could've been done better" but there's not much outright bad.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
I'd say its more like wasted potential rather than outright bad?... Like what we have here is a solid groundworks, but its just never followed up on.

I do think the ending of the story is poorly handled. Reimu being kept on the moon for like 30 days and coming back and being like "oh yeah it was nice up there I suppose" is so ******* lame and uninteresting and definitely could have been handled in a more interesting way, like her noticing how fake and intentioned her good treatment is or seeing little glimpses of the poor treatment of the rabbits, or seeing how vastly opposed to Gensokyo's way of life the Lunar Capitol is and how it bothered her. It kinda feels like a full cop out.

I dont think I can really point out any directly bad writing in Touhou outside of that though. Anything else is just "I would've handled this differently" or "this is paced a little weirdly/could've been done better" but there's not much outright bad.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm glad there was some followup on the state of Lunarian society in the 14.5 era onwards (including Reisen talking about the treatment of moon rabbits in WaHH[?]), but a lot more could've been done. Considering that 'arc' has been over for years now, I don't think TH20 onwards will go back to Lunar Capital stuff, which is unfortunate.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm glad there was some followup on the state of Lunarian society in the 14.5 era onwards (including Reisen talking about the treatment of moon rabbits in WaHH[?]), but a lot more could've been done. Considering that 'arc' has been over for years now, I don't think TH20 onwards will go back to Lunar Capital stuff, which is unfortunate.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Lunar Capitol stuff feels pretty over as of now unless a future arc / manga revisits the topic. I suppose if they ever wanted to delve more into Junko or something that would be our best chance at it.
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
SSIB is overall a bad manga with potential wasted everywhere, that's what i concluded
Click to expand...
I liked that manga a lot compared to the other slice of life mangas I read. I am a sucker for fights and the girls fight in SSiB. I also liked a lot when the characters did coolass feats like Yorihime having the most explicit FTL feat in Touhou.

Meanwhile the other mangas make up every excuse imaginable to avoid fights to the point were their lack of fights becomes unnatural. They take characters that would fight over the most minor disagreements, over someone looking suspicious, that have a "Fight first, ask questions later" mentality and make them reasonable and willing to talk rather than fight.

From what I saw in the main games and fighting games the girls fight everything they see. To the point that they're known for being hostile and fight fanatics.

Meanwhile the other mangas do shit like "Woooo Reimu and Yuugi are going to have a coolass fight! Both are cocky and have a misunderstanding!" But noooooo, Suika and Miyoi come out of nowhere at the exact moment they were going to fight and talk to them and convince them that it was all a misunderstanding.

At this point, I don't think there will be a coolass fight in the mangas. It will all be mystery, unfunny comedy or slice of life. I should probably switch to reading fanfics/doujins that fill my desire to watch fights or switch to watching another series altogether with cute OP girls fighting. I heard Umineko has cute girls fighting to the death.... I'll read it after I finish playing my fifth Terraria melee playthrough (I love swords). Umineko is fine too...
 
Deidalius said:
I liked that manga a lot compared to the other slice of life mangas I read. I am a sucker for fights and the girls fight in SSiB. I also liked a lot when the characters did coolass feats like Yorihime having the most explicit FTL feat in Touhou.

Meanwhile the other mangas make up every excuse imaginable to avoid fights to the point were their lack of fights becomes unnatural. They take characters that would fight over the most minor disagreements, over someone looking suspicious, that have a "Fight first, ask questions later" mentality and make them reasonable and willing to talk rather than fight.

From what I saw in the main games and fighting games the girls fight everything they see. To the point that they're known for being hostile and fight fanatics.

Meanwhile the other mangas do shit like "Woooo Reimu and Yuugi are going to have a coolass fight! Both are cocky and have a misunderstanding!" But noooooo, Suika and Miyoi come out of nowhere at the exact moment they were going to fight and talk to them and convince them that it was all a misunderstanding.

At this point, I don't think there will be a coolass fight in the mangas. It will all be mystery, unfunny comedy or slice of life. I should probably switch to reading fanfics/doujins that fill my desire to watch fights or switch to watching another series altogether with cute OP girls fighting. I heard Umineko has cute girls fighting to the death.... I'll read it after I finish playing my fifth Terraria melee playthrough (I love swords). Umineko is fine too...
Click to expand...
I been reading Wild and Horned Hermit for fanfic writing reasons and while I don't think it makes it bad I definitely noticed that there's a distinct lack of fights in it.
 
BlastX said:
I been reading Wild and Horned Hermit for fanfic writing reasons and while I don't think it makes it bad I definitely noticed that there's a distinct lack of fights in it.
Click to expand...
I noticed that too. I am reading Lotus Eaters, Cheating Detective Satori (Aka, the manga where Satori, the character in the name of the manga, is a background character), and Wild and horned hermit (I should go back to reading this one, I haven't read it in months but it's the last manga I've been reading) and they lack fights. It's not my cup of tea but I want to somewhat back up my superiority complex over other fans by gaining more knowledge than them v:
 
I feel like you're at the very least misinterpreting what happened in the Lotus Eaters scene between Reimu and Yuugi.

First off, I don't think of Reimu as the type to just get into fights for the hell of it, she's the kind of person that only fights when she feels an incident is going on. Miyoi? Definitely not the type of character to get in a fight for the hell of it and doesn't want Yuugi and Reimu to fight.

Yuugi? The complete opposite, she might be the most gung-ho for a fight character of the entire cast, and she creates a scenario where she can 1. Look like an obstacle that is necessary to overcome to Reimu solving an incident, 2. tries to create a sense genuine danger, and 3. does her level best to pick a fight to the point that she gets annoyed when Miyoi ruins her plan by revealing herself to be OK and not in any danger.

Like, be disappointed at the fight itself not happening, but you fundamentally misunderstood the scene, or at the very least Miyoi's character, if you thought it was a contrived reason to not have a fight. And I think that's what happened considering Suika's not merely not involved in making sure no fight takes place, she's not even in the scene or in the Underground at the time of the scene.
 
Deidalius said:
I noticed that too. I am reading Lotus Eaters, Cheating Detective Satori (Aka, the manga where Satori, the character in the name of the manga, is a background character), and Wild and horned hermit (I should go back to reading this one, I haven't read it in months but it's the last manga I've been reading) and they lack fights. It's not my cup of tea but I want to somewhat back up my superiority complex over other fans by gaining more knowledge than them v:
Click to expand...
what’s your favorite touhou manga?
 
ztarwarz said:
I feel like you're at the very least misinterpreting what happened in the Lotus Eaters scene between Reimu and Yuugi.

First off, I don't think of Reimu as the type to just get into fights for the hell of it, she's the kind of person that only fights when she feels an incident is going on. Miyoi? Definitely not the type of character to get in a fight for the hell of it and doesn't want Yuugi and Reimu to fight.

Yuugi? The complete opposite, she might be the most gung-ho for a fight character of the entire cast, and she creates a scenario where she can 1. Look like an obstacle that is necessary to overcome to Reimu solving an incident, 2. tries to create a sense genuine danger, and 3. does her level best to pick a fight to the point that she gets annoyed when Miyoi ruins her plan by revealing herself to be OK and not in any danger.

Like, be disappointed at the fight itself not happening, but you fundamentally misunderstood the scene, or at the very least Miyoi's character, if you thought it was a contrived reason to not have a fight. And I think that's what happened considering Suika's not merely not involved in making sure no fight takes place, she's not even in the scene or in the Underground at the time of the scene.
Click to expand...
I was misremembering that arc because I read it 4 months ago. That's why I misremembered some details like Suika being there when she wasn't and other stuff. I just re-read that arc to refresh my mind and I must say that I forgot several details and I was speaking out of my arse.
That being said, I dislike that chapter. It had the tensions that would have normally led to a fight but Miyoi appeared and talked things out. What a bummer. I would have preferred if they fought.

That and things like that happening are not unusual in the series. When there is enough tension for a fight to break out, a character conveniently comes out of nowhere and talks things through. And the few times a fight occurs, it ends quickly and the fight is boring. That Reimu and Yuugi situation was just the first "Event that would have been a fight but didn't turn into a fight because the plot demands it to" was just the first example that came to my mind. It was one of the moments that made me throw my phone (Against the bed because these things ain't cheap) out of disappointment. I'm a fictional fight-oholic after all.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I think it's fine that the mangas don't do fights very often. We have over 20 games dedicated to these girls beating the hell out of each other, the manga are likely intended to NOT be about fighting as a way of distinguishing them from the games.
Click to expand...
The difference between the mangas and the games is that I believe manga is a better method of showing how the characters would canonically brawl. I don't know exactly how to put it in words but you can't compare a manga fight against a video game boss fight. Those things are completely different and feel different. Do you get what I mean or did I express myself in a confusing way?
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
what’s your favorite touhou manga?
Click to expand...
Well, Lotus Eater is mediocre, I don't like the genre a lot but it's not bad per see.

Wild and Hornet Hermit is mediocre too, though I'd say I like that one more than LE.

Cheating Detective Satori is a disappointment and has a lot of wasted potential. Why the hell is Satori, the girl named after the manga, barely a character in the manga? Her personality is boring and she doesn't do a lot. She should do more, talk more, be interesting, but no. That and I can't forgive ZUN for that short-ass Mokou v Mizuchi fight. Mokou did her strongest direct feat and after that, she started jobbing to Mizuchi and got instantly possessed. Unforgivable! CDS is the only manga that I think it's bad out of all the ones I'm reading.

Silent Sinner in Blue might be the one I like the most. I am a sucker for cool demonstrations of a character's strength, abilities, and speed and that manga has those. I jumped out of my chair once I saw the best girl, Yorihime counteract lightspeed attacks. The fights in that manga as a whole had me pogging. It's one of the few Touhou manga that made me feel something that isn't indifference or hate so I liked it a lot.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
If you're reading Touhou for the sake of seeing demonstrations of people's power levels then you do not ******* understand what Touhou is about.
Click to expand...
I'm reading the Touhou manga for more than that. I kind of like the characters, their stories, and the world-building. It's just that I also love power demonstrations a lot. I probably like power demonstrations a lot more than other traits of a story.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
That's pretty sad.
Click to expand...
FumwTI_WcAEVAnT

(First time I find the opportunity to use this image, usually people just use it against me)
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Same for me story telling/lore > power
Click to expand...
I said the opposite of what you were saying, you might have misunderstood me haha.

I sometimes love simple fun a lot more than other things. Simple fun as in cool fights and comedy. I am a sucker for shonen stuff. Elaborate stories are a bonus in my eyes. I am fond of them but not as much as cool fights and comedy.

That being said, 1984 is peak fiction. George Orwell was cooking with that one, for real, for real.
 
Deidalius said:
FumwTI_WcAEVAnT

(First time I find the opportunity to use this image, usually people just use it against me)

I said the opposite of what you were saying, you might have misunderstood me haha.

I sometimes love simple fun a lot more than other things. Simple fun as in cool fights and comedy. I am a sucker for shonen stuff. Elaborate stories are a bonus in my eyes. I am fond of them but not as much as cool fights and comedy.

That being said, 1984 is peak fiction. George Orwell was cooking with that one, for real, for real.
Click to expand...
Yeah but every series at least should have a lore or story, it helps make things a bit more understandable/explain why things happen.

also helps explain why certain characters are who they are.

I am sometimes curious why certain characters in touhou are evil and why certain ones are good, but then again youkai have a different kind of morality than humans. (Storytelling/lore helps solve that problem)

Though who’s the nicest character in touhou?
 
BlastX said:
I been reading Wild and Horned Hermit for fanfic writing reasons and while I don't think it makes it bad I definitely noticed that there's a distinct lack of fights in it.
Click to expand...
WaHH has its major fight near the very end yeah.

Otherwise most of Touhou’s manga dont focus on fights, they focus on worldbuilding, character building, and slice of life stuff. I think the Touhou manga are some of the only manga I’ve ever seen that utilize anticlimaxes actually pretty well.
 
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Yeah but every series at least should have a lore or story, it helps make things a bit more understandable/explain why things happen.

also helps explain why certain characters are who they are.

I am sometimes curious why certain characters in touhou are evil and why certain ones are good, but then again youkai have a different kind of morality than humans. (Storytelling/lore helps solve that problem)
Click to expand...
True, a good story and lore definitely make a story better. My favorite pieces of fiction are probably stories that mix good fights with good stories. It's like mixing jelly and peanut butter in a sandwich. I mean, I hate jelly and peanut butter in sandwiches so in my case the analogy would be "Mixing white rice and red beans" because nothing beats that combination.
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
Though who’s the nicest character in touhou?
Click to expand...
Miyoi's pretty nice. She might control your memories but she sells good alcohol. I am under the legal drinking age of my state because I can somehow go die in a war in a country I can't name on the map because I got an F in social studies and marry someone but I can't drink alcohol. Sad, but I'd break the law just to drink what Miyoi serves. I simp for her.
Now, I don't know a lot about Rinnosuke but he seems like a chill dude. I don't think he would ever fight me or be mean to me.
I also don't know a lot about Kosuzu, Maribel, Renko, and the purple-haired normal human but they seem weak and nice. I doubt they'd fight me.
Out of the superpowered gals... Marisa visits the human village so she probably is nice. The youkai that visit the human village seem nice, if they were too hostile to humans, they would be banished from the village so I doubt they would harm a human like us.
Kasen seems nice but she's a nagger, she might scold you a lot if you befriend her.
Those are the only characters I thought of.
 
I'm seeing a lot of manga talk and have yet to see (or notice) a single Sangetsusei manga brought up. Cool fight bro, but did you see how cute these fairies are? I actually find these to be the most enjoyable out of all the mangas. Probably the main ones that got me invested in the entire printwork side of the Touhou series.

Outside of that, haven't played Touhou 19 demo and I'm still hoping Youmu was revealed or will be included. And maybe a Momiji inclusion? Please ZUN. For me, i'm desperate for Momiji LOOOOOORE!
 
Deidalius said:
True, a good story and lore definitely make a story better. My favorite pieces of fiction are probably stories that mix good fights with good stories. It's like mixing jelly and peanut butter in a sandwich. I mean, I hate jelly and peanut butter in sandwiches so in my case the analogy would be "Mixing white rice and red beans" because nothing beats that combination.

Miyoi's pretty nice. She might control your memories but she sells good alcohol. I am under the legal drinking age of my state because I can somehow go die in a war in a country I can't name on the map because I got an F in social studies and marry someone but I can't drink alcohol. Sad, but I'd break the law just to drink what Miyoi serves. I simp for her.
Now, I don't know a lot about Rinnosuke but he seems like a chill dude. I don't think he would ever fight me or be mean to me.
I also don't know a lot about Kosuzu, Maribel, Renko, and the purple-haired normal human but they seem weak and nice. I doubt they'd fight me.
Out of the superpowered gals... Marisa visits the human village so she probably is nice. The youkai that visit the human village seem nice, if they were too hostile to humans, they would be banished from the village so I doubt they would harm a human like us.
Kasen seems nice but she's a nagger, she might scold you a lot if you befriend her.
Those are the only characters I thought of.
Click to expand...
And who’s the least nice and most evil? (According to human standards/morality of course)
 
Angelzewolf said:
I'm seeing a lot of manga talk and have yet to see (or notice) a single Sangetsusei manga brought up. Cool fight bro, but did you see how cute these fairies are? I actually find these to be the most enjoyable out of all the mangas. Probably the main ones that got me invested in the entire printwork side of the Touhou series.

Outside of that, haven't played Touhou 19 demo and I'm still hoping Youmu was revealed or will be included. And maybe a Momiji inclusion? Please ZUN. For me, i'm desperate for Momiji LOOOOOORE!
Click to expand...
I personally don't get the appeal of cuteness. Are cute little anime girls supposed to invoke a feeling in anyone? I feel nothing when I like at cute and moe things. I don't get it.

Real dogs on the other hand...
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
And who’s the least nice and most evil? (According to human standards/morality of course)
Click to expand...
I don't know a lot about Seiga but a lot of people say she's evil. Maybe I should investigate her to know if that's true.

Though out of the characters I know a lot... Mizuchi is currently the most evil character I know. She threatens the status quo of Gensokyo. I forgot her exact motivations but doesn't she hate how humans and youkai don't hate each other as much as they used to or something like that?
 
Deidalius said:
I personally don't get the appeal of cuteness. Are cute little anime girls supposed to invoke a feeling in anyone? I feel nothing when I like at cute and moe things. I don't get it.

Real dogs on the other hand...

I don't know a lot about Seiga but a lot of people say she's evil. Maybe I should investigate her to know if that's true.

Though out of the characters I know a lot... Mizuchi is currently the most evil character I know. She threatens the status quo of Gensokyo. I forgot her exact motivations but doesn't she hate how humans and youkai don't hate each other as much as they used to or something like that?
Click to expand...
Mizuchi does she have a profile on the wiki?
 
Most evil characters? I think there are 3 options of those we've seen, and funnily enough I don't think any live Underground in Former Hell, where all the most Hated Youkai and Characters are.

Seiga was mentioned already, her necromancy, lack of morals, and general assholery get her up there. Seija is up there as well, though I'm not sure she's the most evil, she's just the most Contrary character, and that leads to her being both hated and doing a bunch of evil actions.

But as far as most evil, we have the biggest confirmed body count attached to a single character, and they're also the character who notably has not mellowed out and become less evil and mass murdery over the years: Kasen's Arm. Which honestly makes sense considering it's the bottled up and cast off hatred, evil, and murderousness from a species and a particular individual known to be an evil murderer back in the day.

So yeah, I'd go for Kasen's arm. As for least evil, most good, there are a few options you could go with, most hilariously current Kasen Ibaraki. Kosuzu and Akyuu are probably the nicest characters we've seen, and as far as friendly and kind goes among the incident resolvers, I think Sanae and Youmu take that cake. Other options include Hina doing her best Absol impersonation, only with actual misfortune attached, Tenshi's parents, good enough to get into Heaven along with their child despite being alive, and Shiki Eiki for literally being a judge of the dead who tries her best to teach people to do good things.



Also Mizuchi doesn't have a profile yet because we're doing a bunch of work on all the profiles right now and don't want to add them before we iron out all the kinks that would be copy-pasted onto new profiles. We don't currently have profiles for Miyoi, Yachie, Saki, or any character from 18 either, all of which I believe came out before we even had an appearance for Mizuchi.
 
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