Because the concept of speed is irrelevant to them. Hence, why they don't need to act first or fight first.
That makes no sense. For any vs-thread it's immensely important, who acts first. And, in practice, someone always will be assumed to act first, regardless of any philosophical shenanigans. In fact, determining who acts first is one of the main purposes of the speed tiers, together with dodging ability.
Now, if we change it to immeasurable, does their nature change? It will only change our view, but this is not our goal? We need to give a possible tier to them. Not to change their nature tier, just because their nature speed can't be used in battles?
We give a tier to them that reflects their practical speed. For classifying things like being beyond dimensions and spacetime the Beyond Dimensional Existence page exists. The point of the speed tiers isn't to describe the nature of the character, but to describe in which speed-like relationship they are with other characters.
Giving them one of the existing speed tiers (or unknown) neither changes nor describes their beyond dimensional nature. What it describes is in which relationship they stand to other characters in terms of speed. Whether they are faster or slower for the purpose of our vs-threads.
Also, we don't give irrelevant speed to characters because there is a statement “Beyond the concept of time and dimension”. Foremost, we give them only if they are proven to be outerversal. Why do you think outerversal beings act like us? Or like 2A beings? Pretty much useless to use them in the battles. Alright, other question, how are you going to use characters that they got omnipresence in the scale of outerversal and higher (or even boundless), who will hit first? Who will attack first? Also, in most of the battles, the speed is equalized. I really don't know how the argument “We don't know who will hit first” is valid in the first place?
No, that's the point. We don't give any speed ratings anymore because someone is outerversal. After the tiering system revision outerversal isn't a special tier anymore. It isn't inherently different from (Complex) Multiversal. It's just more dimensions. And just having a certain degree of power, which being outerversal classifies, means nothing for speed.
I don't think outerversal beings necessary act like us, but that isn't necessary to the debate. This is about speed tiers whichs entire purpose is to make speed comparisions. If you can't make a speed comparision with it, what you are describing isn't a speed tier.
If a character is spatiotemporally omnipresent on outerversal scale, the character omnipresent throughout more time-like dimensions is is considered faster (while the one with more space-like dimensions is harder to kill). If they are both omnipresent through spacetimes of equal size, they are equal in speed. In terms of comparison, spatiotemporally omnipresent characters have equivalent reactions to immeasurable characters of the same number of time-like dimensions (might depend a little on context, though) meaning they will attack first against characters less that, at the same time as characters equal to that and after characters superior to that level of Immeasurable. Due to being omnipresent... well, their travel speed is basically greater than Immeasurable characters of the scale, since they already are everywhere and everywhen. Attack speed depends on the attacks.
Battles being speed equalized is a nonsensial argument. Like what, should we just not have a speed stat?
And, as said, knowing who hits first is the purpose of having a speed statistic.
—
Then explain to me this character speed tier:
The Writer, the speed is irrelevant for him because he transcends the whole reality of DC-comics and views it as fiction, why do you think immeasurable speed will fit the criteria? He technically can move like us if he wanted to? He can make it possible. It does not really justify that his speed is only FTL because he only showed FTL, whether there is a big possibility that he can reach anywhere without moving?
(FTL is an example)
Or other 1A characters which basically transcend everything within their verse and outside of it. I don't think they even need to move from their place, one desire, and they got it? They don't need to move, they are already everywhere! It is basically what God actually does.
I don't know the Writer very well. Presumably, he would be Immeasurable because he can act faster than Immeasurable characters of a certain scale (DC has those), although not necessarily faster than characters from fictions with cosmologies much greater than DC. So he would have the Immeasurable speed rating, as it classifies his speed-like relationship to other characters: I.e. superior to anything that isn't Immeasurable or Immeasurable on a lesser scale than what he scales to.
Only because they can't be used for battle fights does not really justify that their speed is not superior to immeasurable speed. + I asked for corrections. We can cooperate and find a new description, this one is my suggestion. Also giving them unknown speed would also solve it? No? It will make it worse since their speed can be compared with any street-level character which also has an unknown speed? We give unknown speed to characters, which we have no information on their movement.
We are an indexing wiki that focuses on indexing battle statistics. So a speed tier that has no battle relevance would have no real relevance for us (as said, we already have the BDE page to classify the nature). And if you can't say how a speed-wise comparison with other speed tiers goes (i.e. attacks first or not) then is it truly a superior speed? It's more so an incomparable speed.
Most wouldn't have unknown speed. Most would have Immeasurable speed because, despite their aspatiotemporal nature, they speed wise comparse to lesser beings or have feats indicating speed-wise supremacy to certain levels which allows speed tiering. They would only get unknown if their speed has really nothing we can compare it to or their speed works in a fashion that doesn't allow speed-wise comparisions at all. And in those two cases, I think unknown is fitting. After all, if you can't make any comparison whatsoever, how would you know they are faster than a street-level character with unknown speed? For you to be able to conclude that they are faster than that you would need to have some information that allows you to conclude that they are actually, in practice, faster than some speed level... and then we can list them as "At least [that speed level]" instead of unknown.
Why not use an irrelevant speed tier instead and re-define the description? Would not be better? Because you are just downgrading their nature speed, so they can be used in Vs battle, but hence you still did not answer how they're going to be used in battle? Who will hit first or attack first according to this new “rule”? No difference, I guess?
The reason to not use an Irrelevant speed tier is that the only way such a tier really has a purpose is if it is superior to all other speed tiers in a practical vs-debate sense. However, with Immeasurable speed having unlimited levels now, making such a speed tier just is impossible (or would be massively buying into No Limit Fallacies).
Who hits/attacks first would be clarified by their feats, based on which most will likely be sorted into other speed tiers instead of remaining at just unknown. Which those are will need to be determined from character to character. Most will likely become Immeasurable and then who attacks first will be determined in the same way we currently do for Immeasurable characters.
Only because they agreed, does not mean their agreement is valid. On the first three pages, they all wanted a new definition, and the rest just said “I agreed”. Since when do we count agreements without a valid argument? I also think independent speed would fit. It is just, that it makes no sense to me that there is no gap between those two tiers.
You can freely debate their reasons and try to change their mind (well, since this is a staff thread actually not... as Antvasima said we don't want this to derail now that we have finally are about to reach some result), but you are not in a position to decide whether other peoples opinions should be disregarded because you don't like their arguments.
I actually mentioned concepts of space-time. Not space-time. I don't think I will argue the difference between both, but immeasurable speed is still speed bounded by the concept of space-time, where a character that already transcends everything in the meaning or definition of “speed is superior to immeasurable speed.
Not all spacetime in fiction is equal, neither are all concepts of spacetime. Immeasurable comes in levels, with higher levels for greater spacetimes (more time dimensions / orders of events) are higher levels of Immeasurable than lesser ones.
Having superiority above the concepts of space-time in a speed like manner (not all superiority is even speed like) would grant you immeasurable on the level corresponding to the scale of the spacetime in question. However, the same can't be said for Immeasurable on levels higher than that which correspond to much large fictions (e.g. being superior to the concepts of speed for an 1-A spacetime, would not make superior to "Tier 0" Immeasurable.)
I really did not understand you. Elaborate. Why it can't be superior to a speed that is unbound by concepts of speed?
As said, if it's truly unbound by any speed-like concept than it wouldn't even be a speed or have any meaning for speed classification.
That aside, what I said in the last paragraph: Because it's a No Limits Fallacy to assume that a statement of general superiority to speed applies to speed beyond anything what the verse in question actually has. It's similar to how being "above the concept of dimensions" wouldn't automatically make you Tier 0 despite there being spaces with dimensions that are Tier 0 large. Or to how being "above all dualities" doesn't make you Tier 0, despite every tier being a duality.
I got a suggestion for this. We add levels (if the context is given) next to irrelevant speed:
Speed: Irrelevant (one 1-time dimension above an immeasurable speed character)
But... that would just be the same speed as being Immeasurable one level higher? Having two terms for the same speed seems rather redundant.
That... was about transduality. Entirely different topic.
Damn, you still think their nature speed is logically equal to FTL speed characters. Only because they are inapplicable does not mean they are not faster than those who are still bound by the concept of speed. By your logic, omnipresent is not faster than FTL or infinite characters because they are basically everywhere and everywhen (inapplicable)
Bad comparison, as omnipresent characters have good reasons to be treated the way they are while Immeasurable characters don't. And Omnipresent in itself is a special case, as it's not a real speed tier (like the speed page states).
A) Pardon me? I don't know-how is that an argument? One character is applied/bounded by concepts of speed, and others transcend it? Is it not logically clear that God can move faster than the character, who is still bound by his own laws?
It really isn't clear, no. It is especially not clear as we are making trans-fictional comparisons by which the other character is, in fact, not bound by the gods laws. They could, in fact, be superior in power to said god without even being "Irrelevant" in any sense and form. They could be beyond the concept of speed in the god's fiction, but still Immeasurable due to being bound to a higher order concept of speed (i.e. have Immeasurable to a higher extent).
B) Again, the same argument, who will hit first. In most of the battles where both characters have immeasurable speed, there is no argument about who hit first. It is always a discussion about whose presence/Hax/abilities/resistances are stronger.
B – example) It's called fiction. You can't simply explain it unless there is the context behind it. Yet because it is mentioned that those gods are above the concept of time, does not mean their fights are similar to those who are under the concept of time? Both are different.
Because in most arguments with characters of Immeasurable speed they are immeasurable to the same degree meaning that, as far as we can tell, neither is faster than the other.
In conclusion:
Irrelevant speed needs a new definition and description like omnipresence. Only because their nature of speed does not apply the logic to most of the immeasurable speed characters does not really justify we need to downgrade or change them to fit our standards.
It's really not a downgrade as much as that we just start looking for which speed feats they have instead of giving them a speed based on tier or having BDE alone.
