The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[Vietthai96]

Immeasurable speed is not for speed beyond time I don’t know where you got that from, Immeasurable speed is for speed where time is undefined e.g. attacking someone in the past and the future or movements in a space with two or more temporal dimensions

Textbook definition of Immeasurable speed is movement beyond linear time.

...................................................huh??

Having a non-action feat is by no means Immeasurable speed.

How are you going to define non-action, because by all mean character with Immeasurable speed could well doesn't need action to strike, since their strike surpass linear time, it could well struck their opponents before they move..............

 

[PrinceofPein]

...................................................huh??

How are you going to define non-action, because by all mean character with Immeasurable speed could well doesn't need action to strike, since their strike surpass linear time, it could well struck their opponents before they move..............

Non-action means no cause but still effects

For immeasurable let me give some examples.
1. Flash runs through linear time, past and future. He has a cause which requires him to accelerate
Accelerate is the cause and the effects are moving past linear time
Which will give Immeasurable speed.
2. Frederica, can directly attack you in the future, it requires her to swing a sword or throw a punch for that to happen.
The cause is her swinging her sword and the effect is you in the future getting attacked
Which is immeasurable speed.
3. Meng hao also has the same thing, can move past linear time with sheer speed.

All these have causes

Non-action on the other hand means all that you will do have already happened before you even did them

 

[Agnaa]

But what I am arguing for is not for someone who fulfills one or two of those four conditions but someone who fulfills all four conditions at the same time.

That sounds so rare and contradictory that it's barely worth considering, especially not to the extent of giving them their own new speed rating.

 

[PrinceofPein]

That sounds so rare and contradictory that it's barely worth considering, especially not to the extent of giving them their own new speed rating

It is because it is contradictory and rare that I am saying characters such as that should get an “unknown” in their rating instead of Immeasurable speed as there is no way we can really determine their speed.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422

Your further input regarding what we should do here (after reading our recent conversation in this thread) would be extremely appreciated.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422

Your further input regarding what we should do here (after reading our recent conversation in this thread) would be extremely appreciated.

Well, most still seem to be in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed, so, while I'm personally also ok with the 'compromise', I think we should just do that. If it turns out that we have a gap, we could probably fix it later rather easily.
We can also modify Omnipresence to also cover temporal omnipresence.

---

For the summary on transduality:

1. Delete Type 1 as apparently nobody has that.
2. Erase any mention of 1-A from the definitions of transduality. Transduality is not for just 1-A characters anymore and being above all dualities is only taken relative to a certain scale.
3. Clarify that the difference between current Type 3 and current Type 4 is that while current Type 3 has 4 possible truth states (true, false, true and false, neither true nor false) current Type 4 is multi-valued logic with truth values beyond those 4.

For the last point Ultima made the following draft for the updated current Type 4 (that after deleting Type 1 would be Type 3):

Characters who exist in a state apart of, or beyond, both dual and non-dual ones. In terms of many-valued logic, dualistic states could be labelled as "A and not B" (A holds, but B doesn't) or "B and not A" (B holds, but A doesn't), while non-dual states would be either "A and B" (A and B both hold simultaneously, despite contradictions) or "not A and not B" (Neither A nor B are applicable). In that context, a character with Type 4 nonduality would be one that participates in none of the previous states.

He asked for some way to simplify that, so I tried my hand at writing it with my own words (which may or may not made it harder to understand....):

Characters that exist in a state beyond and superior to the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nur false. That means as much as that they obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states and are in one of those states, not equivalent to the priorly mentioned 4 combinations of true and false.

So what remains to be done in that regard is mostly to either agree to one of the drafts or to improve them further.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, most still seem to be in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed, so, while I'm personally also ok with the 'compromise', I think we should just do that. If it turns out that we have a gap, we could probably fix it later rather easily.

Okay. That is probably fine then, but would you be willing to organise a staff project (mainly involving sending a notification to all of our administrators and content moderators) to properly apply the necessary related revision? Or is somebody else here willing and able to properly do so?

We can also modify Omnipresence to also cover temporal omnipresence.

Yes. I strongly agree with this.

For the summary on transduality:

1. Delete Type 1 as apparently nobody has that.
2. Erase any mention of 1-A from the definitions of transduality. Transduality is not for just 1-A characters anymore and being above all dualities is only taken relative to a certain scale.
3. Clarify that the difference between current Type 3 and current Type 4 is that while current Type 3 has 4 possible truth states (true, false, true and false, neither true nor false) current Type 4 is multi-valued logic with truth values beyond those 4.

All of this seems good to me, but we need another wiki revision project to remove any potential cases of current type 1 transduality, change all of the pages with type 2 transduality to type 1, the ones with type 3 transduality to type 2 and the ones with type 4 transduality to type 3.

For the last point Ultima made the following draft for the updated current Type 4 (that after deleting Type 1 would be Type 3):

He asked for some way to simplify that, so I tried my hand at writing it with my own words (which may or may not made it harder to understand....):

So what remains to be done in that regard is mostly to either agree to one of the drafts or to improve them further.

I personally think that your draft seems easier to understand.

Thank you very much for helping out, as usual. You are awesome.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay. That is probably fine then, but would you be willing to organise a staff project (mainly involving sending a notification to all of our administrators and content moderators) to properly apply the necessary related revision? Or is somebody else here willing and able to properly do so?

I can do that. Should I do it now or should we continue waiting for Ultima?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I think we can wait a bit further for @Ultima_Reality . If you think that it is necessary, you can send him a PM with a link to this thread to get his attention.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Introduction:​

I don't think the removal of irrelevant speed will fix anything, as @DontTalkDT said before,

Well, most still seem to be in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed, so, while I'm personally also ok with the 'compromise', I think we should just do that. If it turns out that we have a gap, we could probably fix it later rather easily.

I am unsure, but there is a gap between immeasurable speed and irrelevant speed. If we remove the irrelevant speed and replace it with unmeasurable speed, then it makes most of the 1A characters slower. I suggest rather a new description.

Let's start with definitions of both speed tiering:​

So I will quote both of speed tiering descriptions:

Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below.)

Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)

Differences between those two speed tiering:​

The only difference between those two tiers is that (easier way to explain)
— Immeasurable speed is bounded by the speed concept
— Irrelevant speed is unbounded by the concept of speed, hence it is why irrelevant to the character

I don't think giving an unknown speed will solve it as well, most weak characters have an unknown speed due to the fact that no info for their speed is given or unknown. Also, immobile means simply he can't move. Can't move ≠ does not need to move. Immobile speed is still bound by the concept of speed.

Currently on phone so i think i will voice out something on Speed. So Tago point is Irrelevant speed is...well the user is transcended dimension to the point that moving is "irrelevant", they doesn't need to move cuz the concept of moving is useless to them thus it is somewhat no different from immobile speed, as they just stood there. Well, i think we as of right now, revise BDE, we should also nuke that irrelevant speed, cuz they not "beyond" dimensional literally anymore, while transcend it but the same time not totally beyond it, in practial they still need to "move". And i also think the same with Irrelevant Lifting Strength.

I know this is an old argument, but mostly you did not understand the difference between two-speed tiering. Immobile speed is where the character can't move from his own place, but irrelevant speed is where the concept of speed is irrelevant for him that he does not even need to move.

I think Irrelevant Speed should go and replace with Immeasurable, or change, cuz at 1-A level onward, most of there character doesn't actually move, cuz they so superior to the concept of space and distance to the point that they just sit in one place, this similar to a state of being like Omnipresence more than actual speed, Its description is also really bad, unlike Immeasurable speed at least we have some define formula at the user is still move with temporal distance. Irrelevant speed have no define formula, requirement is you are 1-A onward, or scale to the guy

I have 0 clues what you meant here, but you recommend removing it and then also saying that those two are different and submit redefining it !?!? Idk

The problem with Irrelevant speed is we just automatically give it to 1-A characters onward, due to the past logic which the concept of speed and moving is irrelevant to these kind of characters. However nowaday we didn't treat "concept" is special thing anymore and in reality, due to these 1-A character beyond all level of dimension. They are either Omnipresent or just actually sitting in one place did nothing at all because feat wise they never move. So to be honest nuking Irrelevant speed is better in my opinion though

Omnipresent is a state of being and irrelevant speed is rather where the character moves beyond our logic, transcending the concept's speed.
!-

New description:​

from

Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)

to

Irrelevant (Characters that transcend/beyond and are qualitatively superior to the concepts of time and space dimensions. Meaning: Levels 1-A and above) All concepts of space and time, whether conventional or transcendental, are ineffective at this level of motion system to make. Since they don't require dimensions to move, their way of moving is beyond our logic. Speed as a concept itself is irrelevant to the character. This is frequently reserved for the highest levels of the tiering system (Levels 1A and above) that transcend all cosmological concepts and laws such as motion, dimension, reality, speed, time, the universe, multiverse, etc. This transcends all infinite planes, even the boundaries associated with immeasurable characters, which are limited because they exceed the need for speed.

If there are any mistakes found in the description, before judging, just tell me and I will try to correct them to fit it more.

Conclusion:​

---

I am sure most staff members here just agree with removal rather than a possible description due to less interest or knowledge of the topic. And no one wanted to create a description for irrelevant speed, so they go for removal instead, but forget that there is a difference between them. I am open to discussion.

Yes, I got permission to talk here

 

[DontTalkDT]

Introduction:​

I don't think the removal of irrelevant speed will fix anything, as @DontTalkDT said before,

I am unsure, but there is a gap between immeasurable speed and irrelevant speed. If we remove the irrelevant speed and replace it with unmeasurable speed, then it makes most of the 1A characters slower. I suggest rather a new description.

Let's start with definitions of both speed tiering:​

So I will quote both of speed tiering descriptions:

Differences between those two speed tiering:​

The only difference between those two tiers is that (easier way to explain)
— Immeasurable speed is bounded by the speed concept
— Irrelevant speed is unbounded by the concept of speed, hence it is why irrelevant to the character

I don't think giving an unknown speed will solve it as well, most weak characters have an unknown speed due to the fact that no info for their speed is given or unknown. Also, immobile means simply he can't move. Can't move ≠ does not need to move. Immobile speed is still bound by the concept of speed.

I know this is an old argument, but mostly you did not understand the difference between two-speed tiering. Immobile speed is where the character can't move from his own place, but irrelevant speed is where the concept of speed is irrelevant for him that he does not even need to move.

I have 0 clues what you meant here, but you recommend removing it and then also saying that those two are different and submit redefining it !?!? Idk

Omnipresent is a state of being and irrelevant speed is rather where the character moves beyond our logic, transcending the concept's speed.
!-

New description:​

from

to

If there are any mistakes found in the description, before judging, just tell me and I will try to correct them to fit it more.

Conclusion:​

---

I am sure most staff members here just agree with removal rather than a possible description due to less interest or knowledge of the topic. And no one wanted to create a description for irrelevant speed, so they go for removal instead, but forget that there is a difference between them. I am open to discussion.

Yes, I got permission to talk here

Your definition has basically all the problems I pointed out in my posts earlier in the thread. (See here, here and here and here for details)

TL;DR any parts about 1-A already don't work due to the very reason we have this thread: Spacetime isn't limited to any tiers anymore. You can be beyond spacetime while below Tier 2 and a character could also still have spacetime at Tier 0. Any claim that a character beyond spacetime in one verse is superior to a character that scales to a much much larger spacetime with many many more dimensions in another verse is rather impossible to prove.

Which leads to the other problem: There is no reason to believe a character beyond spacetime or "the concept of speed" is in any relationship with other speed tiers. I see no reason to believe your definition of Irrelevant would lead to a character being superior to all other possible speed tiers (No-Limits Fallacy). If the concept of speed doesn't apply, then why would the character act 'first' in a vs-debate? After all the concept of first doesn't apply and hence it makes no sense to speculate whether they do act first.

Your definition mentions how the characters movement is 'beyond our logic', but, if so, how can we possibly know how they would compare in a speed-based scenario (like the 'who hits first' / 'who can dodge' in every vs-thread) to characters of other speed levels? If we can't, how is it even a speed tier?

It would, at best, make them superior to whichever highest speed tier is available in their verse. (So often it would be superior to Immeasurable in the verse, but not necessarily superior to all the infinite higher level of Immeasurable that the verse doesn't reach.) But at that point you can just list them as "At least [that other speed tier]".

I am sure most staff members here just agree with removal rather than a possible description due to less interest or knowledge of the topic. And no one wanted to create a description for irrelevant speed, so they go for removal instead, but forget that there is a difference between them.

Given that many of the staff that agreed with removal gave reasons why they preferred that option, I don't think it's justified or appropiate to try to disregard their opinions like that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Speed is not irrelevant for any tier or dimensionality that’s a pretty simple thing and what this thread is about. That’s all

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes good sense to me above. I will send a PM to Ultima.

 

[ImmortalDread]

TL;DR any parts about 1-A already don't work due to the very reason we have this thread: Spacetime isn't limited to any tiers anymore. You can be beyond spacetime while below Tier 2 and a character could also still have spacetime at Tier 0. Any claim that a character beyond spacetime in one verse is superior to a character that scales to a much much larger spacetime with many many more dimensions in another verse is rather impossible to prove.

Which leads to the other problem: There is no reason to believe a character beyond spacetime or "the concept of speed" is in any relationship with other speed tiers. I see no reason to believe your definition of Irrelevant would lead to a character being superior to all other possible speed tiers. If the concept of speed doesn't apply, then why would the character act 'first' in a vs-debate? After all the concept of first doesn't apply and hence it makes no sense to speculate whether they do act first.

Because the concept of speed is irrelevant to them. Hence, why they don't need to act first or fight first. Now, if we change it to immeasurable, does their nature change? It will only change our view, but this is not our goal? We need to give a possible tier to them. Not to change their nature tier, just because their nature speed can't be used in battles?

Also, we don't give irrelevant speed to characters because there is a statement “Beyond the concept of time and dimension”. Foremost, we give them only if they are proven to be outerversal. Why do you think outerversal beings act like us? Or like 2A beings? Pretty much useless to use them in the battles. Alright, other question, how are you going to use characters that they got omnipresence in the scale of outerversal and higher (or even boundless), who will hit first? Who will attack first? Also, in most of the battles, the speed is equalized. I really don't know how the argument “We don't know who will hit first” is valid in the first place?

— Then explain to me this character speed tier:
The Writer, the speed is irrelevant for him because he transcends the whole reality of DC-comics and views it as fiction, why do you think immeasurable speed will fit the criteria? He technically can move like us if he wanted to? He can make it possible. It does not really justify that his speed is only FTL because he only showed FTL, whether there is a big possibility that he can reach anywhere without moving? (FTL is an example)
Or other 1A characters which basically transcend everything within their verse and outside of it. I don't think they even need to move from their place, one desire, and they got it? They don't need to move, they are already everywhere! It is basically what God actually does.

Your definition mentions how the character's movement is 'beyond our logic', but, if so, how can we possibly know how they would compare in a speed-based scenario (like the 'who hits first' / 'who can dodge' in every vs-thread) to characters of other speed levels? If we can't, how is it even a speed tier?

Only because they can't be used for battle fights does not really justify that their speed is not superior to immeasurable speed. + I asked for corrections. We can cooperate and find a new description, this one is my suggestion. Also giving them unknown speed would also solve it? No? It will make it worse since their speed can be compared with any street-level character which also has an unknown speed? We give unknown speed to characters, which we have no information on their movement.

It would, at best, make them superior to whichever highest speed tier is available in their verse. (So often it would be superior to Immeasurable in the verse, but not necessarily superior to all the infinite higher level of Immeasurable that the verse doesn't reach.) But at that point, you can just list them as "At least [that other speed tier]".

Why not use an irrelevant speed tier instead and re-define the description? Would not be better? Because you are just downgrading their nature speed, so they can be used in Vs battle, but hence you still did not answer how they're going to be used in battle? Who will hit first or attack first according to this new “rule”? No difference, I guess?

Given that many of the staff that agreed with removal gave reasons why they preferred that option, I don't think it's justified or appropiate to try to disregard their opinions like that.

Only because they agreed, does not mean their agreement is valid. On the first three pages, they all wanted a new definition, and the rest just said “I agreed”. Since when do we count agreements without a valid argument? I also think independent speed would fit. It is just, that it makes no sense to me that there is no gap between those two tiers.

Problem is that someone "superior to spacetime" isn't necessarily so in a speed wise manner. Especially not in a manner that would allow to keep up or outspeed Immeasurable characters.

I actually mentioned concepts of space-time. Not space-time. I don't think I will argue the difference between both, but immeasurable speed is still speed bounded by the concept of space-time, where a character that already transcends everything in the meaning or definition of “speed is superior to immeasurable speed.

Even if we add a criteria in that they need feats of superiority in a fashion that allows surpassing immeasurable characters in a speed-wise sense, it would still have the problem that that can only be done relative to some layer of Immeasurable. An Irrelevant character surpassing 1 time dimensions, could still not be considered superior to an Immeasurable character that surpasses 2 or 3 or aleph_7 many. Since there is no upper limit to Immeasurable, there can't be a tier superior to it in total.

I really did not understand you. Elaborate. Why it can't be superior to a speed that is unbound by concepts of speed?

And then there's the headache of asking: If an Irrelevant character has feats of superiority to a baseline Immeasurable character (with, let's say, 1 time dimension), but there is another Immeasurable character that is far above baseline (with the same amount of time dimensions) then is the Irrelevant still faster than the Immeasurable? And why?

I got a suggestion for this. We add levels (if the context is given) next to irrelevant speed:
Speed: Irrelevant (one 1-time dimension above an immeasurable speed character)

Personally, I think such a rating makes things very complicated and ultimately it just doesn't do what we would expect from Irrelevant speed: Be superior to Immeasurable in general. I think in cases where a character transcends spacetime in a fashion that would indicate the ability to keep up or surpass (baseline) Immeasurable speed of some level it is easiest to list it just as Immeasurable speed (possibly above baseline one) and BDE.

I really don't know how this will change in terms of battles if we use characters? The speed is still equalized in most of the battles. In most of the battles, the hax, and abilities matter.

Well, I suppose the idea is fine. We just need a good formulation then.

Yap! ^^

I gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
That IMO makes the tier pointless.
I would rather not have a speed tier of that type at all, but if you guys want it, it will at minimum need a note stating that characters of this nature in practice are not necessarily faster than characters of other speed ratings and the specific relationship in that regard is dependent on whether they have showing that would qualify them as equal or faster to other speed tiers or not.

Damn, you still think their nature speed is logically equal to FTL speed characters. Only because they are inapplicable does not mean they are not faster than those who are still bound by the concept of speed. By your logic, omnipresent is not faster than FTL or infinite characters because they are basically everywhere and everywhen (inapplicable)

I already explained that.

A) That the concept of speed doesn't apply to you doesn't make you superior (or inferior) to a character for which the concept of speed applies. If your speed tier allows no comparison to other speed tiers, what's the point? If it allows a comparision, you have yet to explain why. If it doesn't allow a comparison you have yet to explain why it should be different than just unknown, seeing that, just as unknown, you couldn't tell whether the character hits before or after a FTL character, for example.

B) It implies nothing as for which character would land in attack first in a thread, a problem which you just haven't addressed. If the speed tier can't answer questions of such practical use it's unsuitable. It needs to be able to establish an order of events in a fight between two characters.

Y'know how there are sometimes planes of existence beyond spacetimes, but they still have distinct locations? In a similar way you can have stuff beyond spacetime that still has distinct moments.

For example, let's say a writer writes some pantheon of gods beyond spacetime. Those gods fight. God A kills God B. Then, in revenge, a God C kills God A. Being beyond spacetime, there is no time passing between these events or anything. However, there is a logical order to them. The plot only makes sense if God A killing God B happened before God C kills God A.

Let's further say there is a God D, who is special. God D is dissatisfied with God B having been killed, so he uses his power to prevent God A from killing God B. So for all the other gods that event never happened. That's similar to rewriting the past in a time setting, but we have no time here. Just events in some order.

If God D now displays an analog to the usual requirements for Immeasurable relative to that order of events (i.e. he can freely navigate to prior or future events and has reactions that can keep up with beings that do such things) then he would be Immeasurable relative to that spacetimeless layer of existence and also to a higher order than Gods A and C.

There is no actual time and much less dimensions of time involved here, but there is something equivalent in a sense of before and after.

A) Pardon me? I don't know-how is that an argument? One character is applied/bounded by concepts of speed, and others transcend it? Is it not logically clear that God can move faster than the character, who is still bound by his own laws?
B) Again, the same argument, who will hit first. In most of the battles where both characters have immeasurable speed, there is no argument about who hit first. It is always a discussion about whose presence/Hax/abilities/resistances are stronger.
B – example) It's called fiction. You can't simply explain it unless there is the context behind it. Yet because it is mentioned that those gods are above the concept of time, does not mean their fights are similar to those who are under the concept of time? Both are different.

In conclusion:​

---

Irrelevant speed needs a new definition and description like omnipresence. Only because their nature of speed does not apply the logic to most of the immeasurable speed characters does not really justify we need to downgrade or change them to fit our standards.

 

[Antvasima]

Dread, we cannot have you derail this staff forum thread too much when we were finally starting to get somewhere after at least 1.5 years for all of the connected relevant threads.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Dread, we cannot have you derail this staff forum thread too much when we were finally starting to get somewhere after at least 1.5 years for all of the connected relevant threads.

Please don't go and dismiss somebodies entire argument when it does not derail nor change the conversation currently happening. Let knowledgeable people debate on the topics at hand, and please don't shut down their arguments because they don't happen to be staff.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this is a staff forum thread...

Anyway, I am just saying that you shouldn't continue to argue for a prolonged period of time, as it has been hard enough to get a sufficient amount of replies from our most knowledgeable members as it is, and I don't want you to derail this thread until it is destroyed, as it is extremely important for us to finish.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Because the concept of speed is irrelevant to them. Hence, why they don't need to act first or fight first.

That makes no sense. For any vs-thread it's immensely important, who acts first. And, in practice, someone always will be assumed to act first, regardless of any philosophical shenanigans. In fact, determining who acts first is one of the main purposes of the speed tiers, together with dodging ability.

Now, if we change it to immeasurable, does their nature change? It will only change our view, but this is not our goal? We need to give a possible tier to them. Not to change their nature tier, just because their nature speed can't be used in battles?

We give a tier to them that reflects their practical speed. For classifying things like being beyond dimensions and spacetime the Beyond Dimensional Existence page exists. The point of the speed tiers isn't to describe the nature of the character, but to describe in which speed-like relationship they are with other characters.

Giving them one of the existing speed tiers (or unknown) neither changes nor describes their beyond dimensional nature. What it describes is in which relationship they stand to other characters in terms of speed. Whether they are faster or slower for the purpose of our vs-threads.

Also, we don't give irrelevant speed to characters because there is a statement “Beyond the concept of time and dimension”. Foremost, we give them only if they are proven to be outerversal. Why do you think outerversal beings act like us? Or like 2A beings? Pretty much useless to use them in the battles. Alright, other question, how are you going to use characters that they got omnipresence in the scale of outerversal and higher (or even boundless), who will hit first? Who will attack first? Also, in most of the battles, the speed is equalized. I really don't know how the argument “We don't know who will hit first” is valid in the first place?

No, that's the point. We don't give any speed ratings anymore because someone is outerversal. After the tiering system revision outerversal isn't a special tier anymore. It isn't inherently different from (Complex) Multiversal. It's just more dimensions. And just having a certain degree of power, which being outerversal classifies, means nothing for speed.

I don't think outerversal beings necessary act like us, but that isn't necessary to the debate. This is about speed tiers whichs entire purpose is to make speed comparisions. If you can't make a speed comparision with it, what you are describing isn't a speed tier.

If a character is spatiotemporally omnipresent on outerversal scale, the character omnipresent throughout more time-like dimensions is is considered faster (while the one with more space-like dimensions is harder to kill). If they are both omnipresent through spacetimes of equal size, they are equal in speed. In terms of comparison, spatiotemporally omnipresent characters have equivalent reactions to immeasurable characters of the same number of time-like dimensions (might depend a little on context, though) meaning they will attack first against characters less that, at the same time as characters equal to that and after characters superior to that level of Immeasurable. Due to being omnipresent... well, their travel speed is basically greater than Immeasurable characters of the scale, since they already are everywhere and everywhen. Attack speed depends on the attacks.

Battles being speed equalized is a nonsensial argument. Like what, should we just not have a speed stat?

And, as said, knowing who hits first is the purpose of having a speed statistic.

— Then explain to me this character speed tier:
The Writer, the speed is irrelevant for him because he transcends the whole reality of DC-comics and views it as fiction, why do you think immeasurable speed will fit the criteria? He technically can move like us if he wanted to? He can make it possible. It does not really justify that his speed is only FTL because he only showed FTL, whether there is a big possibility that he can reach anywhere without moving? (FTL is an example)
Or other 1A characters which basically transcend everything within their verse and outside of it. I don't think they even need to move from their place, one desire, and they got it? They don't need to move, they are already everywhere! It is basically what God actually does.

I don't know the Writer very well. Presumably, he would be Immeasurable because he can act faster than Immeasurable characters of a certain scale (DC has those), although not necessarily faster than characters from fictions with cosmologies much greater than DC. So he would have the Immeasurable speed rating, as it classifies his speed-like relationship to other characters: I.e. superior to anything that isn't Immeasurable or Immeasurable on a lesser scale than what he scales to.

Only because they can't be used for battle fights does not really justify that their speed is not superior to immeasurable speed. + I asked for corrections. We can cooperate and find a new description, this one is my suggestion. Also giving them unknown speed would also solve it? No? It will make it worse since their speed can be compared with any street-level character which also has an unknown speed? We give unknown speed to characters, which we have no information on their movement.

We are an indexing wiki that focuses on indexing battle statistics. So a speed tier that has no battle relevance would have no real relevance for us (as said, we already have the BDE page to classify the nature). And if you can't say how a speed-wise comparison with other speed tiers goes (i.e. attacks first or not) then is it truly a superior speed? It's more so an incomparable speed.

Most wouldn't have unknown speed. Most would have Immeasurable speed because, despite their aspatiotemporal nature, they speed wise comparse to lesser beings or have feats indicating speed-wise supremacy to certain levels which allows speed tiering. They would only get unknown if their speed has really nothing we can compare it to or their speed works in a fashion that doesn't allow speed-wise comparisions at all. And in those two cases, I think unknown is fitting. After all, if you can't make any comparison whatsoever, how would you know they are faster than a street-level character with unknown speed? For you to be able to conclude that they are faster than that you would need to have some information that allows you to conclude that they are actually, in practice, faster than some speed level... and then we can list them as "At least [that speed level]" instead of unknown.

Why not use an irrelevant speed tier instead and re-define the description? Would not be better? Because you are just downgrading their nature speed, so they can be used in Vs battle, but hence you still did not answer how they're going to be used in battle? Who will hit first or attack first according to this new “rule”? No difference, I guess?

The reason to not use an Irrelevant speed tier is that the only way such a tier really has a purpose is if it is superior to all other speed tiers in a practical vs-debate sense. However, with Immeasurable speed having unlimited levels now, making such a speed tier just is impossible (or would be massively buying into No Limit Fallacies).

Who hits/attacks first would be clarified by their feats, based on which most will likely be sorted into other speed tiers instead of remaining at just unknown. Which those are will need to be determined from character to character. Most will likely become Immeasurable and then who attacks first will be determined in the same way we currently do for Immeasurable characters.

Only because they agreed, does not mean their agreement is valid. On the first three pages, they all wanted a new definition, and the rest just said “I agreed”. Since when do we count agreements without a valid argument? I also think independent speed would fit. It is just, that it makes no sense to me that there is no gap between those two tiers.

You can freely debate their reasons and try to change their mind (well, since this is a staff thread actually not... as Antvasima said we don't want this to derail now that we have finally are about to reach some result), but you are not in a position to decide whether other peoples opinions should be disregarded because you don't like their arguments.

I actually mentioned concepts of space-time. Not space-time. I don't think I will argue the difference between both, but immeasurable speed is still speed bounded by the concept of space-time, where a character that already transcends everything in the meaning or definition of “speed is superior to immeasurable speed.

Not all spacetime in fiction is equal, neither are all concepts of spacetime. Immeasurable comes in levels, with higher levels for greater spacetimes (more time dimensions / orders of events) are higher levels of Immeasurable than lesser ones.

Having superiority above the concepts of space-time in a speed like manner (not all superiority is even speed like) would grant you immeasurable on the level corresponding to the scale of the spacetime in question. However, the same can't be said for Immeasurable on levels higher than that which correspond to much large fictions (e.g. being superior to the concepts of speed for an 1-A spacetime, would not make superior to "Tier 0" Immeasurable.)

I really did not understand you. Elaborate. Why it can't be superior to a speed that is unbound by concepts of speed?

As said, if it's truly unbound by any speed-like concept than it wouldn't even be a speed or have any meaning for speed classification.

That aside, what I said in the last paragraph: Because it's a No Limits Fallacy to assume that a statement of general superiority to speed applies to speed beyond anything what the verse in question actually has. It's similar to how being "above the concept of dimensions" wouldn't automatically make you Tier 0 despite there being spaces with dimensions that are Tier 0 large. Or to how being "above all dualities" doesn't make you Tier 0, despite every tier being a duality.

I got a suggestion for this. We add levels (if the context is given) next to irrelevant speed:
Speed: Irrelevant (one 1-time dimension above an immeasurable speed character)

But... that would just be the same speed as being Immeasurable one level higher? Having two terms for the same speed seems rather redundant.

Yap! ^^

That... was about transduality. Entirely different topic.

Damn, you still think their nature speed is logically equal to FTL speed characters. Only because they are inapplicable does not mean they are not faster than those who are still bound by the concept of speed. By your logic, omnipresent is not faster than FTL or infinite characters because they are basically everywhere and everywhen (inapplicable)

Bad comparison, as omnipresent characters have good reasons to be treated the way they are while Immeasurable characters don't. And Omnipresent in itself is a special case, as it's not a real speed tier (like the speed page states).

A) Pardon me? I don't know-how is that an argument? One character is applied/bounded by concepts of speed, and others transcend it? Is it not logically clear that God can move faster than the character, who is still bound by his own laws?

It really isn't clear, no. It is especially not clear as we are making trans-fictional comparisons by which the other character is, in fact, not bound by the gods laws. They could, in fact, be superior in power to said god without even being "Irrelevant" in any sense and form. They could be beyond the concept of speed in the god's fiction, but still Immeasurable due to being bound to a higher order concept of speed (i.e. have Immeasurable to a higher extent).

B) Again, the same argument, who will hit first. In most of the battles where both characters have immeasurable speed, there is no argument about who hit first. It is always a discussion about whose presence/Hax/abilities/resistances are stronger.
B – example) It's called fiction. You can't simply explain it unless there is the context behind it. Yet because it is mentioned that those gods are above the concept of time, does not mean their fights are similar to those who are under the concept of time? Both are different.

Because in most arguments with characters of Immeasurable speed they are immeasurable to the same degree meaning that, as far as we can tell, neither is faster than the other.

In conclusion:​

---

Irrelevant speed needs a new definition and description like omnipresence. Only because their nature of speed does not apply the logic to most of the immeasurable speed characters does not really justify we need to downgrade or change them to fit our standards.

It's really not a downgrade as much as that we just start looking for which speed feats they have instead of giving them a speed based on tier or having BDE alone.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes sense to me above. We should probably move onwards with our progression here at this point.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agreed, this has been going on for quite a long time and I still haven't been swayed.

AKA, I still support DT and Agnaa's conclusion to remove Irrelevant speed.

 

[Antvasima]

So for how long should we wait for Ultima before we start to apply DontTalk's accepted changes here?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So for how long should we wait for Ultima before we start to apply DontTalk's accepted changes here?

I would suggest saturday afternoon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We can proceed after that point then.

If I remember correctly, we were talking about starting two required rather considerable revision projects based on this though.

 

[ImmortalDread]

That makes no sense. For any vs-thread it's immensely important, who acts first. And, in practice, someone always will be assumed to act first, regardless of any philosophical shenanigans. In fact, determining who acts first is one of the main purposes of the speed tiers, together with dodging ability.


We give a tier to them that reflects their practical speed. For classifying things like being beyond dimensions and spacetime the Beyond Dimensional Existence page exists. The point of the speed tiers isn't to describe the nature of the character, but to describe in which speed-like relationship they are with other characters.

Giving them one of the existing speed tiers (or unknown) neither changes nor describes their beyond dimensional nature. What it describes is in which relationship they stand to other characters in terms of speed. Whether they are faster or slower for the purpose of our vs-threads.


No, that's the point. We don't give any speed ratings anymore because someone is outerversal. After the tiering system revision outerversal isn't a special tier anymore. It isn't inherently different from (Complex) Multiversal. It's just more dimensions. And just having a certain degree of power, which being outerversal classifies, means nothing for speed.

I don't think outerversal beings necessary act like us, but that isn't necessary to the debate. This is about speed tiers whichs entire purpose is to make speed comparisions. If you can't make a speed comparision with it, what you are describing isn't a speed tier.

If a character is spatiotemporally omnipresent on outerversal scale, the character omnipresent throughout more time-like dimensions is is considered faster (while the one with more space-like dimensions is harder to kill). If they are both omnipresent through spacetimes of equal size, they are equal in speed. In terms of comparison, spatiotemporally omnipresent characters have equivalent reactions to immeasurable characters of the same number of time-like dimensions (might depend a little on context, though) meaning they will attack first against characters less that, at the same time as characters equal to that and after characters superior to that level of Immeasurable. Due to being omnipresent... well, their travel speed is basically greater than Immeasurable characters of the scale, since they already are everywhere and everywhen. Attack speed depends on the attacks.

Battles being speed equalized is a nonsensial argument. Like what, should we just not have a speed stat?

And, as said, knowing who hits first is the purpose of having a speed statistic.

I don't know the Writer very well. Presumably, he would be Immeasurable because he can act faster than Immeasurable characters of a certain scale (DC has those), although not necessarily faster than characters from fictions with cosmologies much greater than DC. So he would have the Immeasurable speed rating, as it classifies his speed-like relationship to other characters: I.e. superior to anything that isn't Immeasurable or Immeasurable on a lesser scale than what he scales to.

We are an indexing wiki that focuses on indexing battle statistics. So a speed tier that has no battle relevance would have no real relevance for us (as said, we already have the BDE page to classify the nature). And if you can't say how a speed-wise comparison with other speed tiers goes (i.e. attacks first or not) then is it truly a superior speed? It's more so an incomparable speed.

Most wouldn't have unknown speed. Most would have Immeasurable speed because, despite their aspatiotemporal nature, they speed wise comparse to lesser beings or have feats indicating speed-wise supremacy to certain levels which allows speed tiering. They would only get unknown if their speed has really nothing we can compare it to or their speed works in a fashion that doesn't allow speed-wise comparisions at all. And in those two cases, I think unknown is fitting. After all, if you can't make any comparison whatsoever, how would you know they are faster than a street-level character with unknown speed? For you to be able to conclude that they are faster than that you would need to have some information that allows you to conclude that they are actually, in practice, faster than some speed level... and then we can list them as "At least [that speed level]" instead of unknown.

The reason to not use an Irrelevant speed tier is that the only way such a tier really has a purpose is if it is superior to all other speed tiers in a practical vs-debate sense. However, with Immeasurable speed having unlimited levels now, making such a speed tier just is impossible (or would be massively buying into No Limit Fallacies).

Who hits/attacks first would be clarified by their feats, based on which most will likely be sorted into other speed tiers instead of remaining at just unknown. Which those are will need to be determined from character to character. Most will likely become Immeasurable and then who attacks first will be determined in the same way we currently do for Immeasurable characters.

You can freely debate their reasons and try to change their mind (well, since this is a staff thread actually not... as Antvasima said we don't want this to derail now that we have finally are about to reach some result), but you are not in a position to decide whether other peoples opinions should be disregarded because you don't like their arguments.

Not all spacetime in fiction is equal, neither are all concepts of spacetime. Immeasurable comes in levels, with higher levels for greater spacetimes (more time dimensions / orders of events) are higher levels of Immeasurable than lesser ones.

Having superiority above the concepts of space-time in a speed like manner (not all superiority is even speed like) would grant you immeasurable on the level corresponding to the scale of the spacetime in question. However, the same can't be said for Immeasurable on levels higher than that which correspond to much large fictions (e.g. being superior to the concepts of speed for an 1-A spacetime, would not make superior to "Tier 0" Immeasurable.)

As said, if it's truly unbound by any speed-like concept than it wouldn't even be a speed or have any meaning for speed classification.

That aside, what I said in the last paragraph: Because it's a No Limits Fallacy to assume that a statement of general superiority to speed applies to speed beyond anything what the verse in question actually has. It's similar to how being "above the concept of dimensions" wouldn't automatically make you Tier 0 despite there being spaces with dimensions that are Tier 0 large. Or to how being "above all dualities" doesn't make you Tier 0, despite every tier being a duality.

But... that would just be the same speed as being Immeasurable one level higher? Having two terms for the same speed seems rather redundant.

That... was about transduality. Entirely different topic.

Bad comparison, as omnipresent characters have good reasons to be treated the way they are while Immeasurable characters don't. And Omnipresent in itself is a special case, as it's not a real speed tier (like the speed page states).

It really isn't clear, no. It is especially not clear as we are making trans-fictional comparisons by which the other character is, in fact, not bound by the gods laws. They could, in fact, be superior in power to said god without even being "Irrelevant" in any sense and form. They could be beyond the concept of speed in the god's fiction, but still Immeasurable due to being bound to a higher order concept of speed (i.e. have Immeasurable to a higher extent).

Because in most arguments with characters of Immeasurable speed they are immeasurable to the same degree meaning that, as far as we can tell, neither is faster than the other.

It's really not a downgrade as much as that we just start looking for which speed feats they have instead of giving them a speed based on tier or having BDE alone.

Alright, I can announce my give-up, and you got points there

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Oh wow, never-mind. New thread here. Are you guys done with the transduality stuff?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that we decided what to do, but it has to be properly applied as well.

 

[Fixxed]

So are the transduality revision get accepted???

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422

So what do we currently need to do here now that the irrelevant speed revision has been applied?

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422

So what do we currently need to do here now that the irrelevant speed revision has been applied?

@DontTalkDT @KingPin0422

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alrighty, then. Let me see what I can do:

Characters who exist in a state apart of, or beyond, both dual and non-dual ones. In terms of many-valued logic, dualistic states could be labelled as "A and not B" (A holds, but B doesn't) or "B and not A" (B holds, but A doesn't), while non-dual states would be either "A and B" (A and B both hold simultaneously, despite contradictions) or "not A and not B" (Neither A nor B are applicable). In that context, a character with Type 4 nonduality would be one that participates in none of the previous states.

It's pretty rough, in my eyes. So, got any suggestions for simplifying that?

I think introducing A and B makes no sense for the explanation? What you're assuming is basically that B is "not A" as statement, no?

Maybe:

Characters that exist in a state beyond and superior to the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. That means as much as that they obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states and are in one of those states, not equivalent to the priorly mentioned 4 combinations of true and false.

We have those two drafts for the reformulation of Transduality Type 4. I think the major work left is to agree on a proper draft for that.

Then TD Type 1 can be deleted, as discussed before, due to no character apparently having it. Type 2 & 3 get fused, as they will be the same once we remove the 1-A requirement.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information.

@First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa @Executor_N0 @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Damage3245

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate DontTalk's last preceding above post in this thread please?

 

[Agnaa]

DT's wording seems a good bit better, but the last sentence doesn't make much sense.

 

[DontTalkDT]

DT's wording seems a good bit better, but the last sentence doesn't make much sense.

Elaborate.

 

[Agnaa]

It's a grammatical thing so it's hard to elaborate on, but I'll try.

That means as much as that they obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states and are in one of those states, not equivalent to the priorly mentioned 4 combinations of true and false.

"That means as much as that they" is strange, and can probably be shortened.

"As much as they X..." usually sets up for a "... they Y" later in the sentence, which isn't followed through here, making the sentence feel awkward after the comma.

"not equivalent" doesn't feel like a proper start to the sentence past that point.

If I understand the intended meaning of the sentence, I'd phrase it as "And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier."

if they're also meant to be able to be beyond any values of logic, I'd append my suggestion with ", or exist outside of valued logic, having no associated truth state."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What Agnaa said I suppose.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the feedback.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's a grammatical thing so it's hard to elaborate on, but I'll try.


"That means as much as that they" is strange, and can probably be shortened.

"As much as they X..." usually sets up for a "... they Y" later in the sentence, which isn't followed through here, making the sentence feel awkward after the comma.

"not equivalent" doesn't feel like a proper start to the sentence past that point.

If I understand the intended meaning of the sentence, I'd phrase it as "And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier."

if they're also meant to be able to be beyond any values of logic, I'd append my suggestion with ", or exist outside of valued logic, having no associated truth state."

I suppose your formulation of the sentence sounds better.

Not sure about the "outside of valued logic", simply on grounds that I don't know if that can actually be proven or if it's a NLF kinda thing.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I am perfectly okay with ditching that part.