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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

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Vietthai96 said:
For the record, i still think that Irrelevant speed should be remove. Can we even have an exact, good definition of it at all??
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Let's wait a bit. It seems like DontTalk, Ultima, and KingPin are making progress with reaching agreements here.
 
Well, as said, personally I think nuking Irrelevant seems best and just calling all levels above infinite speed Immeasurable. From the latest replies I seem to not be the only one in favor of that.

On transduality Ultima would just needs to provide the draft, as far as I am concerned. Shouldn't need major changes anymore from my side.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Well, as said, personally I think nuking Irrelevant seems best and just calling all levels above infinite speed Immeasurable. From the latest replies I seem to not be the only one in favor of that.

On transduality Ultima would just needs to provide the draft, as far as I am concerned. Shouldn't need major changes anymore from my side.
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Okay.

Is that fine with you, @Ultima_Reality , @DarkDragonMedeus , and @KingPin0422 ?
 
DontTalkDT said:
Even if we add a criteria in that they need feats of superiority in a fashion that allows surpassing immeasurable characters in a speed-wise sense, it would still have the problem that that can only be done relative to some layer of Immeasurable. An Irrelevant character surpassing 1 time dimensions, could still not be considered superior to an Immeasurable character that surpasses 2 or 3 or aleph_7 many. Since there is no upper limit to Immeasurable, there can't be a tier superior to it in total.
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That seems like a odd argument to make tbh. Two characters from two different verses that can move through 1 time dimension don't have to be equally fast either. For example, imagine someone stops time and walks incredibly slowly within that stopped time. Now imagine someone does the same and runs that same distance. To those two characters their movements aren't equally fast, yet to people who can't move during the stopped time it'd be the exact same.

The same issue arises with Immeasurable speed characters and (probably) Irrelevant speed characters. Doesn't mean I'd agree with getting rid of infinite and above ratings, simply because they become hard to compare. Quite frankly, anything beyond 3-D is a mess to compare for us, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try.

A character with 3 dimensions is still bound to the first 2 dimensions. Even if they can take "shortcuts", there is still a quantifiable speed, simply over a shorter distance. A being with "aleph7" time dimensions is still equally bound to the other aleph7 time dimensions. While you did gather a greater amount of "freedom" in how you move compared to other beings, you don't get to move without still relying on them. So a being that gets to ignore one of them completely and is faster as a result would logically get to ignore all of them just the same (not saying that a character that ignore just one dimension should be assumed to ignore an infinite amount) and be faster as a result. While characters of higher dimensions get to move "more conveniently", characters that move "beyond" time and space all together just ignore the very concept of speed all together.

For example, take a vs battle in which you have a character with an always active passive and a character with immeasurable speed starting within said characters passive.
Said character with immeasurable speed exists at t=0 at (X/Y/Z) which is within the range of said passive, which is active at t=0. The fact that they can move to (X+10/Y/Z) so fast they appear there yesterday doesn't change that they were, in fact, at (X/Y/Z) at t=0, meaning they get hit by that passive either way. Whether they are Aleph50 D with Aleph20 time dimensions doesn't change that fact.
A character with irrelevant speed however just looks at this and goes "t=0? (X/Y/Z)? Why should I care about those?", as their movement is unbound by these things.
 
RatherClueless said:
That seems like a odd argument to make tbh. Two characters from two different verses that can move through 1 time dimension don't have to be equally fast either. For example, imagine someone stops time and walks incredibly slowly within that stopped time. Now imagine someone does the same and runs that same distance. To those two characters their movements aren't equally fast, yet to people who can't move during the stopped time it'd be the exact same.

The same issue arises with Immeasurable speed characters and (probably) Irrelevant speed characters. Doesn't mean I'd agree with getting rid of infinite and above ratings, simply because they become hard to compare. Quite frankly, anything beyond 3-D is a mess to compare for us, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try.

A character with 3 dimensions is still bound to the first 2 dimensions. Even if they can take "shortcuts", there is still a quantifiable speed, simply over a shorter distance. A being with "aleph7" time dimensions is still equally bound to the other aleph7 time dimensions. While you did gather a greater amount of "freedom" in how you move compared to other beings, you don't get to move without still relying on them. So a being that gets to ignore one of them completely and is faster as a result would logically get to ignore all of them just the same (not saying that a character that ignore just one dimension should be assumed to ignore an infinite amount) and be faster as a result. While characters of higher dimensions get to move "more conveniently", characters that move "beyond" time and space all together just ignore the very concept of speed all together.

For example, take a vs battle in which you have a character with an always active passive and a character with immeasurable speed starting within said characters passive.
Said character with immeasurable speed exists at t=0 at (X/Y/Z) which is within the range of said passive, which is active at t=0. The fact that they can move to (X+10/Y/Z) so fast they appear there yesterday doesn't change that they were, in fact, at (X/Y/Z) at t=0, meaning they get hit by that passive either way. Whether they are Aleph50 D with Aleph20 time dimensions doesn't change that fact.
A character with irrelevant speed however just looks at this and goes "t=0? (X/Y/Z)? Why should I care about those?", as their movement is unbound by these things.
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@DontTalkDT
 
RatherClueless said:
That seems like a odd argument to make tbh. Two characters from two different verses that can move through 1 time dimension don't have to be equally fast either. For example, imagine someone stops time and walks incredibly slowly within that stopped time. Now imagine someone does the same and runs that same distance. To those two characters their movements aren't equally fast, yet to people who can't move during the stopped time it'd be the exact same.
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Whether they actually are not equally fast is debatable. But sure, characters within the same time dimension don't have to be equally fast. However, they would either have the same rating or one would have a rating that is always higher than the other rating, independent of context. So this situation is of no contradiction to what I'm saying.

RatherClueless said:
The same issue arises with Immeasurable speed characters and (probably) Irrelevant speed characters. Doesn't mean I'd agree with getting rid of infinite and above ratings, simply because they become hard to compare. Quite frankly, anything beyond 3-D is a mess to compare for us, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try.

A character with 3 dimensions is still bound to the first 2 dimensions. Even if they can take "shortcuts", there is still a quantifiable speed, simply over a shorter distance. A being with "aleph7" time dimensions is still equally bound to the other aleph7 time dimensions. While you did gather a greater amount of "freedom" in how you move compared to other beings, you don't get to move without still relying on them. So a being that gets to ignore one of them completely and is faster as a result would logically get to ignore all of them just the same (not saying that a character that ignore just one dimension should be assumed to ignore an infinite amount) and be faster as a result. While characters of higher dimensions get to move "more conveniently", characters that move "beyond" time and space all together just ignore the very concept of speed all together.

For example, take a vs battle in which you have a character with an always active passive and a character with immeasurable speed starting within said characters passive.
Said character with immeasurable speed exists at t=0 at (X/Y/Z) which is within the range of said passive, which is active at t=0. The fact that they can move to (X+10/Y/Z) so fast they appear there yesterday doesn't change that they were, in fact, at (X/Y/Z) at t=0, meaning they get hit by that passive either way. Whether they are Aleph50 D with Aleph20 time dimensions doesn't change that fact.
A character with irrelevant speed however just looks at this and goes "t=0? (X/Y/Z)? Why should I care about those?", as their movement is unbound by these things.
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Quite frankly, that sounds like you have a problem with how immeasurable works, in general, less than with the deletion of Irrelevant speed and my reasons for it. I don't agree with it, but the justification for Immeasurable to be a speed tier faster than infinite is not the topic of the thread so I think it's better if I don't reply to it here as to not derail the debate that is going on for way too long anyway.
 
Thank you for helping out, DontTalk.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Problem is that someone "superior to spacetime" isn't necessarily so in a speed wise manner. Especially not in a manner that would allow to keep up or outspeed Immeasurable characters.

Even if we add a criteria in that they need feats of superiority in a fashion that allows surpassing immeasurable characters in a speed-wise sense, it would still have the problem that that can only be done relative to some layer of Immeasurable. An Irrelevant character surpassing 1 time dimensions, could still not be considered superior to an Immeasurable character that surpasses 2 or 3 or aleph_7 many. Since there is no upper limit to Immeasurable, there can't be a tier superior to it in total.
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They very much are, yes, since the very notion of speed at all is predicated on space and time, so I quite frankly have no clue of how you'd formulate a character that is of a nature deprived of both but still beholden to them enough to have a defined speed. If your previous post is anything to go by, you already said that you'd consider such a thing to just be "unknown speed," which definitionally is not the case.

Frankly, I find the second paragraph to be a bit strange. It's not like a character with BDE would suddenly turn into a character with HDE if dropped inside a verse with larger spacetime structures than they've shown to transcend. To draw from Rather's point up there (Which, as far as I see, you haven't fully replied to): A character who perceives a spacetime as a purely spatial object they can interact with at any point would still have an existence in lower dimensions, with the only difference being that they have extension on another axis from which different points in time are physically accessible.

But regardless none of that process actually applies to you if you are a being whose existence has no basis in any point in time or space to begin with. So labeling the two as being the same, but on different scales, is not really a good deal at all.

DontTalkDT said:
On transduality Ultima would just needs to provide the draft, as far as I am concerned. Shouldn't need major changes anymore from my side.
Click to expand...
Alrighty, then. Let me see what I can do:

Characters who exist in a state apart of, or beyond, both dual and non-dual ones. In terms of many-valued logic, dualistic states could be labelled as "A and not B" (A holds, but B doesn't) or "B and not A" (B holds, but A doesn't), while non-dual states would be either "A and B" (A and B both hold simultaneously, despite contradictions) or "not A and not B" (Neither A nor B are applicable). In that context, a character with Type 4 nonduality would be one that participates in none of the previous states.
Click to expand...

It's pretty rough, in my eyes. So, got any suggestions for simplifying that?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
They very much are, yes, since the very notion of speed at all is predicated on space and time, so I quite frankly have no clue of how you'd formulate a character that is of a nature deprived of both but still beholden to them enough to have a defined speed. If your previous post is anything to go by, you already said that you'd consider such a thing to just be "unknown speed," which definitionally is not the case.

Frankly, I find the second paragraph to be a bit strange. It's not like a character with BDE would suddenly turn into a character with HDE if dropped inside a verse with larger spacetime structures than they've shown to transcend. To draw from Rather's point up there (Which, as far as I see, you haven't fully replied to): A character who perceives a spacetime as a purely spatial object they can interact with at any point would still have an existence in lower dimensions, with the only difference being that they have extension on another axis from which different points in time are physically accessible.

But regardless none of that process actually applies to you if you are a being whose existence has no basis in any point in time or space to begin with. So labeling the two as being the same, but on different scales, is not really a good deal at all.
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The problem is that 'none of it applies to you' doesn't mean that you are faster. We are talking about speed here. 'The idea of speed doesn't apply cause you're beyond spacetime' is as worthless as it gets.

If we throw these characters into a vs-thread one of them will, in practice, have to be the first to attack. If both will erase each other with the first move, then whoever remains was the faster one. And I see no reason to assume that the character with BDE would be the remaining one, instead of the character with 512 layers of Immeasurable speed.

What I'm saying isn't that characters with BDE are just Immeasurable on some different scale or have HDE (btw. Immeasurable characters don't have HDE either, no idea why you bring HDE up). I'm saying BDE is not a speed-like concept in any practical sense, as it doesn't even dictate an order of events, when comparing to other characters.

If you just have BDE it means nothing for your speed in vs-debates. It doesn't clarify whether you attack before or after the opponent, or whether you can do something in reaction to attacks.

And if you had BDE in a fashion that you can proof BDE makes you faster than a baseline Immeasurable character, then the BDE still doesn't matter. All that matters is the proof of being faster than Immeasurable to be ranked as faster than that level of Immeasurable. However, since Immeasurable has an unlimited range of levels, even higher cardinal many, being faster than one particular level doesn't proof you faster than all higher levels. It doesn't generalize like that, because you are not faster due to being aspatiotemporal, but because could proof to have that speed level independent from any BDE stuff.

Let me add that Immeasurable isn't strictly spatiotemporal in nature. I often chose to mention multiple time axis as model, since it is easier to envision that way, but you can also have different layers of Immeasurable by having non-temporal hierarchies such as just 'order of events' of higher scale. Those are then essentially equivalent to the timeline models, not dissimilar to how a realm without spacetime can in our tiering be considered equivalent in 'size' to a realm with spacetime, despite size being a spatial concept. And similar to how a realm transcending spacetime would per default not be considered superior to all dimensional spaces, being beyond spacetime also isn't considered being beyond all Immeasurable levels (especially not those with higher alephs).

Ultima_Reality said:
Alrighty, then. Let me see what I can do:



It's pretty rough, in my eyes. So, got any suggestions for simplifying that?
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I think introducing A and B makes no sense for the explanation? What you're assuming is basically that B is "not A" as statement, no?

Maybe:
Characters that exist in a state beyond and superior to the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nur false. That means as much as that they obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states and are in one of those states, not equivalent to the priorly mentioned 4 combinations of true and false.
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Thank you both for helping out. Should we call more of our knowledgeable members here?
 
Don't know who else to ask, but you can try.

The short summary of the two positions is roughly:
  • I want to delete Irrelevant speed and just call every speed that is baseline Immeasurable or faster Immeasurable.
  • Ultima wants to redefine Irrelevant into a speed level for characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, that transcend spacetime according to some standards (not closer specified which ones yet, I think). He then suggests that such spacetime transcending characters should be considered speed-wise superior to all levels of Immeasureable speed, even those that essentially have something equivalent to Tier 0 hierarchies of Immeasurable. And that would be the case, even if the cosmology of the Irrelevant speed character isn't even remotely that expansive in any aspect. (for me it sounds like he suggests BDE Type 2 characters blitz everyone without that, but take that with a grain of salt as it's coming from me and I obviously think the whole idea doesn't work)
 
DontTalkDT said:
Don't know who else to ask, but you can try.

The short summary of the two positions is roughly:
  • I want to delete Irrelevant speed and just call every speed that is baseline Immeasurable or faster Immeasurable.
  • Ultima wants to redefine Irrelevant into a speed level for characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, that transcend spacetime according to some standards (not closer specified which ones yet, I think). He then suggests that such spacetime transcending characters should be considered speed-wise superior to all levels of Immeasureable speed, even those that essentially have something equivalent to Tier 0 hierarchies of Immeasurable. And that would be the case, even if the cosmology of the Irrelevant speed character isn't even remotely that expansive in any aspect. (for me it sounds like he suggests BDE Type 2 characters blitz everyone without that, but take that with a grain of salt as it's coming from me and I obviously think the whole idea doesn't work)
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Okay. Thank you for the summary.

@Ultima_Reality @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?
 
I agree with DT also, my take is give Immeasurable speed to all BDE characters as speed is never irrelevant in any setting or layer or hierarchy, we just cannot quantity it for some characters.
And we should really fix our standards so not just anyone with some form of time manipulation can get Immeasurable speed now.
 
DontTalkDT said:
That was never the case, though? Like, our current Immeasurable standards definitely don't allow that?
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Yes but look at profile as an example
Nocturne transcends time and can go into people’s dream in the past and future. Which is some sort of time manipulation but somehow he gains Immeasurable speed.

People who can also send attack into the future (although this depends on context) majority of them are time manipulation/travel but somehow they all gain Immeasurable speed.

The Immeasurable speed page should be precise so not just anyone who has shown time traveling and manipulation will Be argued to have Immeasurable speed
 
Pain_to12 said:
Yes but look at profile as an example
Nocturne transcends time and can go into people’s dream in the past and future. Which is some sort of time manipulation but somehow he gains Immeasurable speed.

People who can also send attack into the future (although this depends on context) majority of them are time manipulation/travel but somehow they all gain Immeasurable speed.

The Immeasurable speed page should be precise so not just anyone who has shown time traveling and manipulation will Be argued to have Immeasurable speed
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We can always debate improving the explanation text, although that is subject for a separate thread. This thread really needs to get finished already, so better not to put more into it.
If any such profiles gets fixed of course ultimately depends on someone noticing and doing a CRT on it.
 
DontTalkDT said:
We can always debate improving the explanation text, although that is subject for a separate thread. This thread really needs to get finished already, so better not to put more into it.
If any such profiles gets fixed of course ultimately depends on someone noticing and doing a CRT on it.
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Well when this is done I can make a CRT for this if no one beats me to it
Vietthai96 said:
Wait, why giving Immeasurable speed to all BDE characters????
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Not all, that was more of a general term since almost all of them qualifies for it
But those who don’t qualify will be the exception not the rule
 
It seems like DontTalk's suggestion has been accepted then. Is somebody willing to check through all of our tiers Low 1-A, 1-A, High 1-A, and 0 pages, to help properly modify their speed levels, and does anybody have a plan of approach for how we should evaluate whether or not they should get Immeasurable speed?
 
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Also, what else is left to decide and apply here?
 
DontTalkDT said:
The problem is that 'none of it applies to you' doesn't mean that you are faster. We are talking about speed here. 'The idea of speed doesn't apply cause you're beyond spacetime' is as worthless as it gets.

What I'm saying isn't that characters with BDE are just Immeasurable on some different scale or have HDE (btw. Immeasurable characters don't have HDE either, no idea why you bring HDE up). I'm saying BDE is not a speed-like concept in any practical sense, as it doesn't even dictate an order of events, when comparing to other characters.

If you just have BDE it means nothing for your speed in vs-debates. It doesn't clarify whether you attack before or after the opponent, or whether you can do something in reaction to attacks.
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And why is that, exactly? For all it. Through these three paragraphs, it seems you are largely just making assertions while not really substantiating any of them. I (And, for the matter, Rather, too) already explained why the proposal I speak of is, in principle, not at all incoherent, and why the premise which kickstarted your argument (That my proposal of Irrelevant speed would be just "unknown speed") is definitionally wrong, and from this I don't see an answer to any of what was said so much as reiterations of previous claims.

To reiterate my point: The notion of speed at all is already predicated on there being some idea of space, since you'd require some manner of "distance" to move across (Whether that be a temporal equivalent of it or not). If a character's actions ignore/bypass/whatever the idea of a direction entirely, then they are by extension ignoring the concept of speed as well, which is then where the name would come from, "Irrelevant." You probably ought to elaborate on why exactly this is so worthless, because, as it stands, it is not clear that it is, at all. Unless you are saying a character that qualifies for this trait just can't exist, or something.

DontTalkDT said:
Let me add that Immeasurable isn't strictly spatiotemporal in nature. I often chose to mention multiple time axis as model, since it is easier to envision that way, but you can also have different layers of Immeasurable by having non-temporal hierarchies such as just 'order of events' of higher scale.
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Sorry if I'm coming off as dense, but I don't really understand that example. Can you elaborate on that? Would rather make sure I fully get where you're coming from before proceeding.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And why is that, exactly? For all it. Through these three paragraphs, it seems you are largely just making assertions while not really substantiating any of them. I (And, for the matter, Rather, too) already explained why the proposal I speak of is, in principle, not at all incoherent, and why the premise which kickstarted your argument (That my proposal of Irrelevant speed would be just "unknown speed") is definitionally wrong, and from this I don't see an answer to any of what was said so much as reiterations of previous claims.

To reiterate my point: The notion of speed at all is already predicated on there being some idea of space, since you'd require some manner of "distance" to move across (Whether that be a temporal equivalent of it or not). If a character's actions ignore/bypass/whatever the idea of a direction entirely, then they are by extension ignoring the concept of speed as well, which is then where the name would come from, "Irrelevant." You probably ought to elaborate on why exactly this is so worthless, because, as it stands, it is not clear that it is, at all. Unless you are saying a character that qualifies for this trait just can't exist, or something.
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I already explained that.

A) That the concept of speed doesn't apply to you doesn't make you superior (or inferior) to a character for which the concept of speed applies. If your speed tier allows no comparison to other speed tiers, what's the point? If it allows a comparision, you have yet to explain why. If it doesn't allow a comparison you have yet to explain why it should be different than just unknown, seeing that, just as unknown, you couldn't tell whether the character hits before or after a FTL character, for example.

B) It implies nothing as for which character would land in attack first in a thread, a problem which you just haven't addressed. If the speed tier can't answer questions of such practical use it's unsuitable. It needs to be able to establish an order of events in a fight between two characters.

Ultima_Reality said:
Sorry if I'm coming off as dense, but I don't really understand that example. Can you elaborate on that? Would rather make sure I fully get where you're coming from before proceeding.
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Y'know how there are sometimes planes of existence beyond spacetimes, but they still have distinct locations? In a similar way you can have stuff beyond spacetime that still has distinct moments.

For example, let's say a writer writes some pantheon of gods beyond spacetime. Those gods fight. God A kills God B. Then, in revenge, a God C kills God A. Being beyond spacetime, there is no time passing between these events or anything. However, there is a logical order to them. The plot only makes sense if God A killing God B happened before God C kills God A.

Let's further say there is a God D, who is special. God D is dissatisfied with God B having been killed, so he uses his power to prevent God A from killing God B. So for all the other gods that event never happened. That's similar to rewriting the past in a time setting, but we have no time here. Just events in some order.

If God D now displays an analogue to the usual requirements for Immeasurable relative to that order of events (i.e. he can freely navigate to prior or future events and has reactions that can keep up with beings that do such things) then he would be Immeasurable relative to that spacetimeless layer of existence and also to a higher order than Gods A and C.

There is no actual time and much less dimensions of time involved here, but there is something equivalent in a sense of before and after.
 
I am not sure which of DontTalk's and Ultima's suggestions that is most accurate and convenient to use, but thank you both for helping out.
 
Maybe we could simply use Ultima's suggestion for defining Irrelevant speed, but write an explicit note beside it that it is describing a state of being rather than a superiority to Immeasurable speed, so we do not get a definition hole in our tiering system? Would that be acceptable for you, @DontTalkDT ?
 
Antvasima said:
Maybe we could simply use Ultima's suggestion for defining Irrelevant speed, but write an explicit note beside it that it is describing a state of being rather than a superiority to Immeasurable speed, so we do not get a definition hole in our tiering system? Would that be acceptable for you, @DontTalkDT ?
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It would also need to mention that characters need to have another speed value listed to clarify how, well..., fast they actually are in practice. Which for me means it is nothing but unknown speed + BDE but if people want it.

Would look something like:
Irrelevant: Characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence for which the concept of speed technically doesn't apply as they don't interact with spacetime. This in practice dictates no relationship of acting faster or slower than any other speed values, but rather means that comparisions of a speed-like nature are more difficult. As such characters with this rating require a second speed rating to clarify faster than which speed tiers they are able to act in a practical combat scenario.
Click to expand...
 
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Okay. That seems like a fair compromise solution to me. Thank you for helping out.

Is that acceptable to you, @Ultima_Reality ?
 
Im sorry to ask this here, but i keep getting diverging answers from sources i presumed to be trusted. This is relatively important as itd involve upscaling a character to tier 0. Is Transduality type 3 still going to automatically give 1-A or….

I hate to ask this, but the fact i got so many differing answers (Yes, No, Transduality is getting nuked etc) worried me so i wanted a definitive conclusion, I and others could go off.
 
Jibz said:
Im sorry to ask this here, but i keep getting diverging answers from sources i presumed to be trusted. This is relatively important as itd involve upscaling a character to tier 0. Is Transduality type 3 still going to automatically give 1-A or….

I hate to ask this, but the fact i got so many differing answers (Yes, No, Transduality is getting nuked etc) worried me so i wanted a definitive conclusion, I and others could go off.
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no
 
DontTalkDT said:
A) That the concept of speed doesn't apply to you doesn't make you superior (or inferior) to a character for which the concept of speed applies. If your speed tier allows no comparison to other speed tiers, what's the point? If it allows a comparision, you have yet to explain why. If it doesn't allow a comparison you have yet to explain why it should be different than just unknown, seeing that, just as unknown, you couldn't tell whether the character hits before or after a FTL character, for example.

B) It implies nothing as for which character would land in attack first in a thread, a problem which you just haven't addressed. If the speed tier can't answer questions of such practical use it's unsuitable. It needs to be able to establish an order of events in a fight between two characters.
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I believe I already did.

A character who perceives a spacetime as a purely spatial object they can interact with at any point would still have an existence in lower dimensions, with the only difference being that they have extension on another axis from which different points in time are physically accessible.

But regardless none of that process actually applies to you if you are a being whose existence has no basis in any point in time or space to begin with
Click to expand...

The notion of speed at all is already predicated on there being some idea of space, since you'd require some manner of "distance" to move across (Whether that be a temporal equivalent of it or not). If a character's actions ignore/bypass/whatever the idea of a direction entirely, then they cannot really be said to be operating by the notion of speed at all.
Click to expand...

And for the matter so did Rather.

A character with 3 dimensions is still bound to the first 2 dimensions. Even if they can take "shortcuts", there is still a quantifiable speed, simply over a shorter distance. A being with "aleph7" time dimensions is still equally bound to the other aleph7 time dimensions. While you did gather a greater amount of "freedom" in how you move compared to other beings, you don't get to move without still relying on them. So a being that gets to ignore one of them completely and is faster as a result would logically get to ignore all of them just the same (not saying that a character that ignore just one dimension should be assumed to ignore an infinite amount) and be faster as a result. While characters of higher dimensions get to move "more conveniently", characters that move "beyond" time and space all together just ignore the very concept of speed all together.
Click to expand...

You keep saying that it allows no comparision, but honestly I don't see how it does not, especially given the emphasis placed on "being unbound by/ignoring/bypassing space and time entirely." Really, all I am asking is for you to not just say that those criteria don't entail a higher level beyond Immeasurable, but also why that is the case, to begin with. As far as I see, you haven't provided me with any reasoning.

DontTalkDT said:
Y'know how there are sometimes planes of existence beyond spacetimes, but they still have distinct locations? In a similar way you can have stuff beyond spacetime that still has distinct moments.

For example, let's say a writer writes some pantheon of gods beyond spacetime. Those gods fight. God A kills God B. Then, in revenge, a God C kills God A. Being beyond spacetime, there is no time passing between these events or anything. However, there is a logical order to them. The plot only makes sense if God A killing God B happened before God C kills God A.

Let's further say there is a God D, who is special. God D is dissatisfied with God B having been killed, so he uses his power to prevent God A from killing God B. So for all the other gods that event never happened. That's similar to rewriting the past in a time setting, but we have no time here. Just events in some order.

If God D now displays an analogue to the usual requirements for Immeasurable relative to that order of events (i.e. he can freely navigate to prior or future events and has reactions that can keep up with beings that do such things) then he would be Immeasurable relative to that spacetimeless layer of existence and also to a higher order than Gods A and C.

There is no actual time and much less dimensions of time involved here, but there is something equivalent in a sense of before and after.
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None of this makes any sense.

For you to have events occuring within an order, you, by definition, require notions of time. If there are things happening in succession, then we can very much visualize that as a set and make a temporal axis out of that. So all of this just comes across as "There is something else here that behaves exactly like time, but it isn't time, trust me." Distinctions that only exist in-name shouldn't be of our concern, imo.

Moreover, if the characters in question do, in fact, exist beyond normal time, then it is not obvious that their actions take place in some linear or successive order (This is not something that is necessarily true even of a character with Type 4 Acausality, after all), and it just naturally follows from the nature of such statements that what we see may very well just be there for the viewer's sake. If you insist that those things are actually happening exactly as is showcased/stated (Which I very much doubt applies to most cases, anyway), though, then it can easily be taken to mean that the characters existing on a level apart from the normal timeline of the verse, but not from space and time as a whole, especially in your hypothetical, where what is effectively just time travel is involved.

Same thing applies to space, since if there is no distance between two points, then they are not distinguishable from each other; they're the same point. As such, if there is literal, physical separation between two locations, then it stands to reason that they occupy some form of space (Even if not the conventional one we experience). There are other ways in which they could be distinguished from one another, like their own properties, for instance, which may be mutually exclusive, but none of those directly involve space, time and ideas that hinge on those two (i.e position or location)

So, yeah, I really do not get your point here.

Antvasima said:
Is that acceptable to you?
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Sorry, but no. It is hardly even a compromise, in fact, and I am sure at least DontTalk recognizes as much.
 
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I don't have much to say here at the moment, other than that I side with Ultima and Rather regarding Irrelevant Speed.
 
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