The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[Antvasima]

I am personally more agreeing with Ultima as well about Irrelevant speed, but also currently don't particularly mind if we add a note as was mentioned above.

Maybe we could simply use Ultima's suggestion for defining Irrelevant speed, but write an explicit note beside it that it is describing a state of being rather than a superiority to Immeasurable speed, so we do not get a definition hole in our tiering system?

Would look something like:

Irrelevant: Characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence for which the concept of speed technically doesn't apply as they don't interact with spacetime. This in practice dictates no relationship of acting faster or slower than any other speed values, but rather means that comparisions of a speed-like nature are more difficult. As such characters with this rating require a second speed rating to clarify faster than which speed tiers they are able to act in a practical combat scenario.

Should I ask our other Administrators for input regarding the issue?

 

[KingPin0422]

Sorry for my belated response, but based on their previous responses, I'm not sure if anyone else is able/willing to assist in getting this done quicker.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I believe I already did.





And for the matter so did Rather.



You keep saying that it allows no comparision, but honestly I don't see how it does not, especially given the emphasis placed on "being unbound by/ignoring/bypassing space and time entirely." Really, all I am asking is for you to not just say that those criteria don't entail a higher level beyond Immeasurable, but also why that is the case, to begin with. As far as I see, you haven't provided me with any reasoning.

You are asking for the reason why a non-sequitur is a non-sequitur. The reason that it doesn't compare is that there is no reason why it should compare.

Your reasoning is entirely 'the idea of speed doesn't apply' but if it doesn't apply at all how can it be superior? If your character has no notion of going first, how can you confidently claim that they will in practice go first? If no speed-like concepts apply to your character at all, then it can't be speed-like superior. That would be a logical contradiction. You can't say "going first is not an applicable notion to this character, but it will definitely go first".

Being unbound from a greater number of time dimensions isn't the issue, because being unbound from a time dimension actually doesn't mean that you are faster. It wouldn't even make you immeasurable without context. Neither is having an existence in lower dimensions or whatever. Whether you exist somewhere is not an issue of speed.

DarkLK back in the days made a good analogy in that regard. It went something like 'Just because you can swim it doesn't mean you are faster on land.' I.e. just because you can move unbound from land doesn't mean you are faster than everyone that can only land travel. It just means you can travel somewhere they can not. Same thing with BDE. Just because those characters can move outside of spacetime doesn't mean they are in any sense faster than those who can not. They swim in a spacetimeless voids, while others run in spacetime. Whether their swimming ends up allowing them to be faster than running can't be determined just from the mode of transportation.

Let me additionally say that we are not trying to rank fictions by our fan understanding of how they should behave in certain situations. The entire "being beyond spacetime lets you absolutely blitz everyone who isn't" idea is not something I believe will be assumed by fictions on any general level. It's not a reasonable assumption to default to especially when extending it to other levels beyond regular speed i.e. Immeasurable of arbitrarily many layers. The assumption is just as unsuited for fictional tiering as anyone interacting with microscopic higher dimensions being ranked as Tier 1. Actually more than that, given that the implication is vastly more extreme and has no scientific backing. (or really any backing when you ask me)

None of this makes any sense.

For you to have events occuring within an order, you, by definition, require notions of time. If there are things happening in succession, then we can very much visualize that as a set and make a temporal axis out of that. So all of this just comes across as "There is something else here that behaves exactly like time, but it isn't time, trust me." Distinctions that only exist in-name shouldn't be of our concern, imo.

Moreover, if the characters in question do, in fact, exist beyond normal time, then it is not obvious that their actions take place in some linear or successive order (This is not something that is necessarily true even of a character with Type 4 Acausality, after all), and it just naturally follows from the nature of such statements that what we see may very well just be there for the viewer's sake. If you insist that those things are actually happening exactly as is showcased/stated (Which I very much doubt applies to most cases, anyway), though, then it can easily be taken to mean that the characters existing on a level apart from the normal timeline of the verse, but not from space and time as a whole, especially in your hypothetical, where what is effectively just time travel is involved.

Same thing applies to space, since if there is no distance between two points, then they are not distinguishable from each other; they're the same point. As such, if there is literal, physical separation between two locations, then it stands to reason that they occupy some form of space (Even if not the conventional one we experience). There are other ways in which they could be distinguished from one another, like their own properties, for instance, which may be mutually exclusive, but none of those directly involve space, time and ideas that hinge on those two (i.e position or location)

So, yeah, I really do not get your point here.

You will have to talk that up with fiction since virtually every story in existence, including those featuring spacetimeless voids, have things happening in an order of events: Namely the plot. Even for character beyond spacetime there usually is an order of events, even if that order doesn't necessarily matches with that of other people (such as for time traveling people).

And multiple fictions feature multiple separate places with no concept of spacetime. I think DC for example?

As usual, what the fiction states goes above our thinking of what it should be like. So yeah, you can have an order of events while not having any time.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes some very good points in his last post. I am leaning towards agreeing with him instead then. What is the current tally regarding which members that think what here?

 

[Vietthai96]

DarkLK back in the days made a good analogy in that regard. It went something like 'Just because you can swim it doesn't mean you are faster on land.' I.e. just because you can move unbound from land doesn't mean you are faster than everyone that can only land travel. It just means you can travel somewhere they can not. Same thing with BDE. Just because those characters can move outside of spacetime doesn't mean they are in any sense faster than those who can not. They swim in a spacetimeless voids, while others run in spacetime. Whether their swimming ends up allowing them to be faster than running can't be determined just from the mode of transportation.

This actually a very good analogy, i'm completely agree with this. However, let see Ultima's side, i think he is not completely wrong either

 

[DontTalkDT]

DontTalk makes some very good points in his last post. I am not sure what we should do here then. What is the current tally regarding which members that think what here?

Ultima and KingPin are in favor of BDE being superior to everything.
RatherClueless seems to think the same, but doesn't seem to think that demonstrating it for just one time dimension suffices to apply it to infinitely many.
Me, Elizhaa, DDM, Qawsedf234, Vietthai96 (I think) and Pain_to12 are in favor of deleting Irrelevant speed and just having Immeasurable for baseline Immeasurable and above.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the summary. So, in lack of better options, and since we need to eventually move ahead with this revision, would it be fine if we use the compromise solution that we discussed earlier?

Maybe we could simply use Ultima's suggestion for defining Irrelevant speed, but write an explicit note beside it that it is describing a state of being rather than a superiority to Immeasurable speed, so we do not get a definition hole in our tiering system?

Would look something like:

Irrelevant: Characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence for which the concept of speed technically doesn't apply as they don't interact with spacetime. This in practice dictates no relationship of acting faster or slower than any other speed values, but rather means that comparisions of a speed-like nature are more difficult. As such characters with this rating require a second speed rating to clarify faster than which speed tiers they are able to act in a practical combat scenario.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thank you for the summary. So, in lack of better options, and since we need to eventually move ahead with this revision, would it be fine if we use the compromise solution that we discussed earlier?

Personally, I would be fine with that. However, as Ultima said it would not be much of a compromise for him as it means that Irrelevant (BDE) characters end up not getting ranked faster than all others and have to rely on other speed feats for that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that the compromise seems like the best solution, in lack of better options, as it avoids us having a gap in our tiering system, while still taking the very valid points from you and DarkLK into account.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, i don't think BDE now is completely superior to everything, it is not the old BDE anymore.

Irrelevant speed i'm on deletion side, because of two reasons
1. We can't have an exact, objective definition of this speed.
2. Since this speed mostly tied with people who have BDE, and most BDE characters are................in a sense..................not moving due to their state of being as "Beyond Dimension", so this speed................doesn't actually describe anything, each time i think about Irrelevant speed characters fight, i can't imagine how they "move" so uhhhhhh. Back then i still think that Irrelevant speed mean, you can instantly be anywhere and anywhen at the same time

 

[Bobsican]

I'll also remind that the compromise Ant brings up is just a fancy label for Unknown speed for characters with BDE, which sounds quite redundant as the Unknown speed rating already exists, and it can also turn quite unecessary when peeps start inconsistently listing Unknown or that "new" speed rating for them, as it has been happening with type 2 immortality and regeneration, and so it seems rather detrimental to have.

If anything just a note over how BDE doesn't give any speed tier in particular as DT has brought up would be something I'd be fine with, and just in case, yeah, I support DT on this regard.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, in lack of better options, and since we need to eventually move ahead with this revision, would it be fine if we use the compromise solution that we discussed earlier?

I don't particularly agree with this, since, as said above, it's only a compromise in-name.

Leaving this post here as a heads-up that I'll respond to this in full in a bit, by the way. I haven't abandoned this thread, or anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Crabwhale]

Honestly call me radical, but at this point I think someone should just compile what has been proposed and have a vote off between the experts (NOT the members, NOT the general staff, just the people that are actually extensively talking about this stuff all thread long).

I mean this has been going on since October of last year, and if there's anything I've gotten from years and years of Tier Shit talk is that most of it is arbitrary anyway. I'd rather get it over with already over dragging it out for another year and probably wearing the patience of people who care even more thin that it already is.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that we will likely have to resort to that kind of solution soon, in lack of better options, so I would greatly appreciate a much more active discussion between @Ultima_Reality , @DontTalkDT , and @KingPin0422 , so we can more quickly reach conclusions here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Honestly call me radical, but at this point I think someone should just compile what has been proposed and have a vote off between the experts (NOT the members, NOT the general staff, just the people that are actually extensively talking about this stuff all thread long).

I mean this has been going on since October of last year, and if there's anything I've gotten from years and years of Tier Shit talk is that most of it is arbitrary anyway. I'd rather get it over with already over dragging it out for another year and probably wearing the patience of people who care even more thin that it already is.

Idk, wouldn't that mean the opinion of those most interested in the topic wins?

---

Anyways, if this debate continues I may as well write some extra argument.
Let me write a bit more about Immeasurable just so we're clear why it is superior speed to infinite, which we can also take to the BDE case to see why I don't consider it superior speed. In the process, I will also address the passive thing RatherClueless wanted to talk about, even though I still maintain that it is irrelevant for the thread.



So we're looking at a few different kinds of speed on this wiki. I will address travel speed (flight speed is the same for this purpose), attack speed and reaction speed. Combat speed is the combination of the 3, so no need to address it separately. I will talk only about time in the following, to make it easy to follow.


Travel speed is easy. Having higher travel speed basically means as much as that you are winning a race against the other character. In other words, there is some distance that should be travelled, characters start "traveling" at t_1=0 and whoever reaches the end first wins.
An infinite-speed character reaches the goal at t_2 = 0. I.e. they reaches it at the same point in time as when they started running.

An immeasurable character could reach the goal at t_2 = -5s, for example. I.e. they reach it before they started. Before they started is earlier as the time when they started, so the immeasurable speed character is faster.


Attack speed is similar to travel speed, except that it is now the attack that travels. Fundamentally one can do the same race comparison for the attack, in which the infinite-speed attack reaches the target at the same moment in time and the immeasurable speed attack earlier in time.
One could also make a comparison as to whether or not the attack can be reacted to. Say a character with infinitely fast reactions is attacked. Such a character could potentially block an infinitely fast attack in time. Say an infinitely fast energy beam is fired. They see it is fired and raise their shield in the same moment, which is also the moment in which the attack hits them. They could have potentially blocked it. However, for an immeasurable speed energy beam, the moment the character sees the energy beam being fired they were already hit. Even if they raise their shield in that same instant it would be too late, as the attack hit them, for example, 5 seconds ago.


Those two are pretty easy, but the case of immeasurable reaction speed is more interesting. For reaction speed, we ask ourselves whether some character could react to an attack with the respective speed from a short distance away.
As established in the attack speed case, infinite reactions are not enough for immeasurable attacks.
So are immeasurable reactions enough for infinite speed attacks? Yes, of course. Immeasurable reactions mean to be able to react in a negative timespan i.e. backwards in time. They see the energy beam being fired and put up their shield 5 seconds ago. Early enough to block when the beam actually arrives 5 seconds after they raised their shields.

With that we come to the topic of Immeasurable vs. passives that RatherClueless brought up. First, it should be said that not all passives kill instantly (I dare say most in fact do not), but let's assume one that does.
At first one might think: Well, the character is already in the passive's range. At best they can do a revenge attack in the same instant in which the passive kills them, right?

However, consider the following: A character with Immeasurable reactions has to be able to react to an immeasurable attack so as to block it. So if a character fires an immeasurable energy beam that hits them 5 seconds ago, they have to be able to put up a shield 5 seconds ago or earlier. An attack that hit them 5 seconds ago should likewise already have made contact with them, just like the passive. In a sense, what the passive is doing, is to hit them '0 seconds ago'. It has already hit them in the same instant, while an immeasurable attack already hit them in a prior instant. If you can make a reaction to the latter, you can also make a reaction to the former.
Is that pretty hard to imagine? For sure. But that's what you get when you think about blocking immeasurable attacks.An easier way to imagine it might be to say that in the same instant they get erased (so by doing an infinite speed reaction) they rewrite the past to prevent it from ever happening.
Let me say that this point isn’t what this debate depends on, though.

With all of this said, how about we do the same test scenarios with the "BDE is superior to everything else" idea?

For travel speed we want to do the race again. But we immediately have problems. Can a character with BDE even start at the time t=0? Can they even cross the distance of the race? And if they do, since they are unbound by time they presumably do so at no point in time at all. Is reaching the goal at no point in time before or after they started? Is it before all times before they started even? In an extreme scenario an immeasurable character might reach the goal as early as the dawn of creation. Arceus might reach the goal as early as when he got out of that egg of his, before time and space even got created. But no point in time is "before" that in a sense that one can consider the BDE character to have won the race? I don't see why.

Next attack speed. If you think of it as travel speed of attacks, we have the same problem as above. The attack is fired and arrives at something that isn't a point in time or even stand in any causal relationship of order of events. So how would one compare that?
And if you think of it in terms of overcoming reactions... Well, a character with infinite speed sees the energy beam getting fired and their reaction happens at the same instant. Why does the energy beam hit before they put up their shield? If we take BDE seriously, the "time" when the beam arrives can't be compared to the time when the shield is put up. It can't be before nor after. So how can we guarantee that the beam hits when the character is in a state of "the shield isn't up"? I don't think we can, especially not for fiction in general.
And that gets just worse when you consider that, again, an immeasurable character might see the attack being fired and in response raise their shield at the dawn of creation before which not even concepts existed. That means as much as that they, retroactively, never had their shield down at any point throughout everything that exists in the verse. So how and why would the BDE attack hit them in a state where the shield is down?

Lastly, how does it stand with BDE reactions? Now, this is a little difficult in that in order to even be able to attack a BDE character we have to assume that the attacker is able to in some way interact with something with BDE. That's not easy after all. A true BDE character is immune to a lot of things.
So, for the sake of argument, let's say the attack in this scenario can just erase the concept of the BDE character without actually needing to hit the character itself and the BDE characters reaction is to use powernull before the concept erasure is completed.
In case of an infinite speed character the attack starts and ends in the same instant. So the BDE character needs to activate powernull in 0 seconds. Can they do that? I would say maybe, maybe not. Being beyond time they technically can't do anything in any span of time. On the other hand, we can't apply the idea of "before or after the attack is used" to them. So whether they can is once again indeterminate and would need to be clarified by actual showings in the verse.
And how is it with the immeasurable character case? Well, let's go into the most extreme case once again. The character activates their power which erases the opponent's concept before Arceus even gets out of the egg to establish time and space. So, retroactively, the concept of the character and the character themselves were never created. Here I again really don't see how a BDE character could use powernull before that. Or, more importantly, why we would assume they can do that just for being outside of spacetime.


So, in total, I maintain that BDE characters should not be ranked inherently higher than Immeasurable ones. They should be required to demonstrate feats on par with Immeasurable characters to get speed values on par with them.
Hence (to repeat for those who have read nothing before this) I still suggest to delete Irrelevant speed and just use Immeasurable for all feats that are baseline Immeasurable or higher. Although, I would be willing to agree to the 'compromise' of defining Irrelevant as a variable speed tier for characters with BDE that is not inherently higher or lower than other speed tiers.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that DontTalk makes good sense above, and that it currently seems best if we define Irrelevant speed as an independent "speed that is not exactly a speed" tier similarly to omnipresence, in order to avoid getting a gap in our tiering system for characters of this nature.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa

Your further input would be appreciated here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your further input would be appreciated here.

My stance still really hasn't changed here. I agree with DT, we don't need to separate BDE characters and give them some random speed rating no one else can get just because.

Just delete it and give them a speed with a justification behind it rather than defaulting to something they may not actually have.

 

[Antvasima]

My stance still really hasn't changed here. I agree with DT, we don't need to separate BDE characters and give them some random speed rating no one else can get just because.

Just delete it and give them a speed with a justification behind it rather than defaulting to something they may not actually have.

I personally think that DontTalk makes good sense above, and that it currently seems best if we define Irrelevant speed as an independent "speed that is not exactly a speed" tier similarly to omnipresence, in order to avoid getting a gap in our tiering system for characters of this nature.

Thank you for the reply. What do you think about the solution suggested above?

 

[Agnaa]

I have only read a few posts on this page of the thread, sorry for any ignorance that leaves me with.

I think that almost every fictional representation of being "beyond time" is silly and constantly contradicted, to the point where I'd ideally discount 99% of them, due to them still involving change, causality, and order. I also don't know any verses with characters like that who do anything. So that's the perspective that I'm coming at this from.

I sympathize a lot with DT's arguments and suggestions. They work well to demonstrate that "beyond time" characters are difficult to compare with Immeasurable/Infinite speed characters, and seems to end up with a prescription of "Ignore that beyond time nonsense except for the defenses it gives them, and just determine their speed based off their other feats".

But if these characters are accurately beyond time, there would be no change for them to ever actually go through, they'd never perform any actions or feats (as that would require a change from one moment to another of having not done something to having done something), and so never get a speed feat. There's a variety of speeds you could put to this (immobile due to not doing anything, or infinite/immeasurable/irrelevant due to everything having matched their desires from the start), but those are all pretty speculative, and meaningless when it comes to a battle, as them being in a conflict is nonsensical and indeterminate going by their source material.

And if they aren't accurately beyond time, and just have some form of hypertime, then they'd be on par with some immeasurable characters, slower than others, and faster than others. At which point it's just another way of reaching immeasurable; they're bound to some higher form of time, but not a lower one. So there's not much of a point in finding a speed based on their other feats.

Since it's either unquantifiable and meaningless, or another way of reaching immeasurable, I'm against all suggestions posed thus far. Just put them at Unknown or Immeasurable. My understanding of Ultima's idea is that it sucks since it believes BDE to be above Immeasurable. My understanding of DT's idea is that it sucks since it only looks at accurately beyond time characters who would never get speed feats anyway; those who do get speed feats seem like they'd just function as Irrelevant speed characters. My understanding of Ant's idea is that it sucks since there wouldn't really be a gap in the tiering system (they'd either be Unknown for good reason, or Immeasurable for good reason), and because BDE is dissimilar to Omnipresence due to it not having consequences in combat similar to speed; only having consequences in combat similar to a defensive ability.

But at the end of the day, I'm not super knowledgeable or invested in high-tier speed discussions, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Just a reminder that we still have to finalize the transduality stuff. I think we were pretty much in agreement on that in content and were just looking for a good wording.

I have only read a few posts on this page of the thread, sorry for any ignorance that leaves me with.

I think that almost every fictional representation of being "beyond time" is silly and constantly contradicted, to the point where I'd ideally discount 99% of them, due to them still involving change, causality, and order. I also don't know any verses with characters like that who do anything. So that's the perspective that I'm coming at this from.

I sympathize a lot with DT's arguments and suggestions. They work well to demonstrate that "beyond time" characters are difficult to compare with Immeasurable/Infinite speed characters, and seems to end up with a prescription of "Ignore that beyond time nonsense except for the defenses it gives them, and just determine their speed based off their other feats".

But if these characters are accurately beyond time, there would be no change for them to ever actually go through, they'd never perform any actions or feats (as that would require a change from one moment to another of having not done something to having done something), and so never get a speed feat. There's a variety of speeds you could put to this (immobile due to not doing anything, or infinite/immeasurable/irrelevant due to everything having matched their desires from the start), but those are all pretty speculative, and meaningless when it comes to a battle, as them being in a conflict is nonsensical and indeterminate going by their source material.

And if they aren't accurately beyond time, and just have some form of hypertime, then they'd be on par with some immeasurable characters, slower than others, and faster than others. At which point it's just another way of reaching immeasurable; they're bound to some higher form of time, but not a lower one. So there's not much of a point in finding a speed based on their other feats.

Since it's either unquantifiable and meaningless, or another way of reaching immeasurable, I'm against all suggestions posed thus far. Just put them at Unknown or Immeasurable. My understanding of Ultima's idea is that it sucks since it believes BDE to be above Immeasurable. My understanding of DT's idea is that it sucks since it only looks at accurately beyond time characters who would never get speed feats anyway; those who do get speed feats seem like they'd just function as Irrelevant speed characters. My understanding of Ant's idea is that it sucks since there wouldn't really be a gap in the tiering system (they'd either be Unknown for good reason, or Immeasurable for good reason), and because BDE is dissimilar to Omnipresence due to it not having consequences in combat similar to speed; only having consequences in combat similar to a defensive ability.

But at the end of the day, I'm not super knowledgeable or invested in high-tier speed discussions, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

Sooooo... do I read that wrong or is that in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the thorough evaluation, @Agnaa. Wouldn't treating irrelevant as an independent non-speed, as I and DontTalk suggested above, be more specific and leave us with less of a gap than using unknown for such cases though?

 

[Antvasima]

Just a reminder that we still have to finalize the transduality stuff. I think we were pretty much in agreement on that in content and were just looking for a good wording.

Can you or somebody else here write a reminder summary of our discussion and conclusions so far regarding that issue please?

 

[Agnaa]

Sooooo... do I read that wrong or is that in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed?

It's in favour of deleting Irrelevant speed, yes.

Wouldn't treating irrelevant as an independent non-speed, as I and DontTalk suggested above, be more specific and leave us with less of a gap than using unknown though?

Going by my standards, such cases would only be given Unknown if they don't take actions indicating some sort of "hypertime" and thus Immeasurable speed. I think it'd be confusing to give a non-speed-status that doesn't apply to most cases like that. 95% of BDE characters not getting BDE speed, or getting BDE speed and having it mean absolutely nothing speed-wise, would be quite confusing imo. I think the other 5% of profiles getting Unknown because we don't even know if they are capable of taking actions (and because if they can, it's impossible to determine if they're slow, infinite, or immeasurable) is fair and fits in line with the other sorts of things that lead to Unknown.

Does that make sense?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would personally still prefer if we give specific distinctive titles for different types of relations with time, even if they should not be directly compared with other speed tiers in terms of hierarchical significance. Cases of legitimate temporal omnipresence and transcending all types of time in their entireties would not be taken into account if we simply delete irrelevant speed, for example.

However, I am likely not the best person to ask, and can get outvoted here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thank you for the reply. What do you think about the solution suggested above?

I don't really see the point of keeping Irrelevant around. We got rid of it for lifting strength for the exact same reasons. It made sense with how we used to do the tiering system, but we've made quite a number of hefty changes to it since then I just don't think it fits in anymore or differs itself from Immeasurable enough to keep around.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[PrinceofPein]

For the irrelevant speed, I am totally for deleting like I already said above.

And for Agnaa’s concerns, Unknown would be for characters like this
1. BDE
2. Existing in every inch of a universe/multiverse (spatial omnipresence)
3. Existing across all of time, present/past/future at the same time (temporal omnipresence)
4. Having an instance of non-action or effects without cause I.e. an action they were supposed to take has already been done by them without them even doing it.

I don’t think there is a way to dertermine the speed of a character such as the one who fulfill all conditions up above and yes we cannot tell if they are fast or slow so unknown would fit them much better than Irrelevant speed.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd hope that temporal omnipresence would be covered by omnipresence, But I could understand the desire to have a separate rating for that if it is common enough. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to say whether that's justified or not.

But for "transcending all types of time in their entireties" I'm a bit conflicted on what to put that at. Looking at other parts of our system for guidance, we may want to say that "transcending all types of time completely" would be equivalent to "having an aleph-2 amount of temporal dimensions", but I'm not sure if our spatial reasoning should apply in that way. We choose aleph-2 dimensions as the start of 1-A (and as the equivalence point for "transcends dimensions") since that's where our standard models of space stop properly functioning, but I think there's a decent argument for 2 temporal dimensions to be where our standard models of time stop properly functioning. As our Speed page currently says, having two temporal dimensions makes the time taken for feats undefined, and makes speed formulas inapplicable.

In short, I think "transcending all types of time completely" can be accounted for, although I'm not sure whether it'd be baseline Immeasurable, or equivalent to aleph-2 temporal dimensions. And again, I'm not sure whether these types are common/distinct enough to justify their own rating, so I can't make a call either way.

@Pain_to12 I don't understand your latest post.

 

[DontTalkDT]

But for "transcending all types of time in their entireties" I'm a bit conflicted on what to put that at. Looking at other parts of our system for guidance, we may want to say that "transcending all types of time completely" would be equivalent to "having an aleph-2 amount of temporal dimensions", but I'm not sure if our spatial reasoning should apply in that way. We choose aleph-2 dimensions as the start of 1-A (and as the equivalence point for "transcends dimensions") since that's where our standard models of space stop properly functioning, but I think there's a decent argument for 2 temporal dimensions to be where our standard models of time stop properly functioning. As our Speed page currently says, having two temporal dimensions makes the time taken for feats undefined, and makes speed formulas inapplicable.

In short, I think "transcending all types of time completely" can be accounted for, although I'm not sure whether it'd be baseline Immeasurable, or equivalent to aleph-2 temporal dimensions. And again, I'm not sure whether these types are common/distinct enough to justify their own rating, so I can't make a call either way.

Personally, I would say it's above 1 time dimension (so baseline 2). I don't see a good reason to extrapolate further on that front.

And of course, the 'transcendence' needs to be in a manner that qualifies for Immeasurable to begin with.

Can you or somebody else here write a reminder summary of our discussion and conclusions so far regarding that issue please?

I will gather what was suggested later today.

 

[Antvasima]

Pain_to12:

Okay, but it seems like a too flawed and limited approach indexing-wise to just leave out the exact type of nature of different characters, even though they do not directly relate to speed itself. This includes spatial omnipresence, temporal omnipresence, and genuinely transcending time/beyond-dimensional existence.

However, I suppose that it can technically be mentioned elsewhere in the relevant character profile pages.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd hope that temporal omnipresence would be covered by omnipresence, But I could understand the desire to have a separate rating for that if it is common enough. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to say whether that's justified or not.

But for "transcending all types of time in their entireties" I'm a bit conflicted on what to put that at. Looking at other parts of our system for guidance, we may want to say that "transcending all types of time completely" would be equivalent to "having an aleph-2 amount of temporal dimensions", but I'm not sure if our spatial reasoning should apply in that way. We choose aleph-2 dimensions as the start of 1-A (and as the equivalence point for "transcends dimensions") since that's where our standard models of space stop properly functioning, but I think there's a decent argument for 2 temporal dimensions to be where our standard models of time stop properly functioning. As our Speed page currently says, having two temporal dimensions makes the time taken for feats undefined, and makes speed formulas inapplicable.

In short, I think "transcending all types of time completely" can be accounted for, although I'm not sure whether it'd be baseline Immeasurable, or equivalent to aleph-2 temporal dimensions. And again, I'm not sure whether these types are common/distinct enough to justify their own rating, so I can't make a call either way.

@Pain_to12 I don't understand your latest post.

Okay. Thank you for helping us make progress here.

Personally, I would say it's above 1 time dimension (so baseline 2). I don't see a good reason to extrapolate further on that front.

And of course, the 'transcendence' needs to be in a manner that qualifies for Immeasurable to begin with.

Yes, agreed.

I will gather what was suggested later today.

Thank you. It is very appreciated.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Pain_to12 I don't understand your latest post.

There are certain characters who have some certain feats, the four things I mentioned up there, they are the ones who we cannot actually determine their speed, so I am suggesting they be given “unknown” as we cannot determine if the characters are truly fast or truly slow. But for anyone else who don’t meet this, they can easily fit within our structure for Immeasurable speed.

Pain_to12:

Okay, but it seems like a too flawed and limited approach indexing-wise to just leave out the exact type of nature of different characters, even though they do not directly relate to speed itself. This includes spatial omnipresence, temporal omnipresence, and genuinely transcending time/beyond-dimensional existence.

while I do agree that it is very flawed, as that would grant any character who has a “author-fiction” relationship with a certain verse unknown speed
an example of character who fulfill all four conditions above is Featherine from Umineko and this is only because she is the author of the verse and also the Writer from DC. But I don’t see how else we can treat these characters as they don’t fit between Immeasurable speed.

However, I suppose that it can technically be mentioned elsewhere in the relevant character profile pages.

This also another solution for such characters

 

[Agnaa]

There are certain characters who have some certain feats, the four things I mentioned up there, they are the ones who we cannot actually determine their speed, so I am suggesting they be given “unknown” as we cannot determine if the characters are truly fast or truly slow. But for anyone else who don’t meet this, they can easily fit within our structure for Immeasurable speed.

I see. But I'd sometimes give 1 Immeasurable (but not always), I'd give 2 & 3 Omnipresent, and I'd assume that 4 did that feat through hax instead of raw speed.

Although I do acknowledge that Omnipresent isn't quite a proper answer, since it doesn't tell you their perception speed.

 

[Vietthai96]

2. Existing in every inch of a universe/multiverse (spatial omnipresence)
3. Existing across all of time, present/past/future at the same time (temporal omnipresence)

I disagree with "limiting" Omnipresence character, though i can understand your point, and these character i think need better description on their "speed"

4. Having an instance of non-action or effects without cause I.e. an action they were supposed to take has already been done by them without them even doing it.

Sorry if i come off as rude, but this is bad logic, an action without a cause mean it is unbound by cause and effect, it is a text book definition of Immeasurable speed. Unless i misunderstand something

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already said it before, but Agnaa is right that BDE is different from omnipresent and that even the ability is often very counter intuitive. But both him and DT are in favor if deleting irrelevant speed, which I still am FRA.

 

[PrinceofPein]

There are certain characters who have some certain feats, the four things I mentioned up there, they are the ones who we cannot actually determine their speed, so I am suggesting they be given “unknown” as we cannot determine if the characters are truly fast or truly slow. But for anyone else who don’t meet this, they can easily fit within our structure for Immeasurable speed.

I see. But I'd sometimes give 1 Immeasurable (but not always), I'd give 2 & 3 Omnipresent, and I'd assume that 4 did that feat through hax instead of raw speed.

Although I do acknowledge that Omnipresent isn't quite a proper answer, since it doesn't tell you their perception speed.

I think this would be fine if we treat omnipresent as a state of being/an ability instead of a speed feat as we currently do.
But what I am arguing for is not for someone who fulfills one or two of those four conditions but someone who fulfills all four conditions at the same time.

But Ant suggest having a note on such character pages along with a standard Immeasurable speed, which can be a temporary solution I guess

Sorry if i come off as rude, but this is bad logic, an action without a cause mean it is unbound by cause and effect, it is a text book definition of Immeasurable speed. Unless i misunderstand something

Not at all, Immeasurable speed would still require you to take certain actions for effects/events to happen.
Textbook definition of Immeasurable speed is movement beyond linear time.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not at all, Immeasurable speed would still require you to take certain actions for effects/events to happen.
Textbook definition of Immeasurable speed is movement beyond linear time.

I know you gonna use this statement. But by all mean it is sematic abusing, time also tied with causality and effect, an action that not constraint by cause and effect will also beyond time.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I know you gonna use this statement. But by all mean it is sematic abusing, time also tied with causality and effect, an action that not constraint by cause and effect will also beyond time.

Immeasurable speed is not for speed beyond time I don’t know where you got that from, Immeasurable speed is for speed where time is undefined e.g. attacking someone in the past and the future or movements in a space with two or more temporal dimensions
These are the textbook definitions of Immeasurable speed.
Having a non-action feat is by no means Immeasurable speed.