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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

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Okay. Thank you to Ultima for helping out then.

I think that Irrelevant speed should be redefined from its current form though. Preferably to encompassing and perceiving all of time at once or somesuch.
 
There should certainly be some rewordings done. After all, characters moving unrestricted by any sort of dimensionality would qualify for this, regardless of whether their verse is low 2-C or High 1-A. It should also be clarified that the criteria for getting this rating continue to be very strict, even after being separated from 1-A. For example, moving through a timeless void under our current rules for them could be used as an argument (although I believe changing the void standards/wording to be simply case by case and them not granting anything unless specified might be even better). They should also show feats/have clear statements of being at least equal to immeasurable speed (being able to travel through time) if not outright superior.


As of now only 1-A characters could get this rating, but with the changes it would open the gates to many more characters having irrelevant speed. Maintaining a comparable level of strictness as we require for characters to be 1-A would probably be advisable.


About your point specifically, I don't think Ultima necessarily agrees with that. He believes a High 1-A character could reasonably be immeasurable, while perceiving characters that exist beyond dimensions, who would qualify for irrelevant speed, as fiction. I disagreed with him on that and sadly we couldn't find any common ground either due to the current Reality Equalization standards. "encompassing and perceiving all of time" would probably not qualify for it anyways, unless it is on some transcendental plane specifically unbound by it.
 
DontTalkDT said:
That sounds like it would still be in the realms of Type 3 from how you describe it. Type 3 includes "are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation" which is exactly what God is according to your description. It's basically the "true and false"-state. While the Divine Nothingness seems to be the "not true and not false"-state (or not 1 nor 0).
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Yeah, I've never really argued God would be the fifth state. I argued Atzmus would be, in this case.

DontTalkDT said:
I have to disagree here. For an ability it can make sense to go by mechanism, but not for a stat. Stats are all about effects and how things compare.
If an Immeasurable combat speed character doesn't blitz an infinite combat speed character, but could even lose to it for speed reasons, then Immeasurable would have failed as stat. A stat that, at times, is slower than the next lowest stat would not do its job of making characters comparable in the aspect it describes.
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I don't really see how a character that follows what I described could be blitzed by someone with Immeasurable speed. Being able to reach any point in space instantly by operating in t=0 is meaningless if the thing you are up against is above the framework in which those actions take place to begin with (In this, not "above" it in the sense of being in some other direction orthogonal to spacetime but being in some level that's ontologically above it)

The other part of your post also seems to be a matter of ambiguous standards, since I've never really seen the "time travel" aspect of Immeasurable being treated like that, myself.

Antvasima said:
I think that Irrelevant speed should be redefined from its current form though. Preferably to encompassing and perceiving all of time at once or somesuch.
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Both of these just sound like forms of Omnipresence, to me, so they would be fairly redundant ratings on their own. I'd much rather have Irrelevant stay on the basis of "Character is not bound by space or time whatsoever, as opposed to just operating by some higher forms of them or moving through them in unconventional ways."

Like Rather said, though, we would have to keep the definitions strict. For instance, simply being described as "above space and time" relative to a 4-D cosmology wouldn't be enough; you'd need conclusive evidence that you do, in fact, operate in no point of spacetime at all, instead of just existing in a larger space encompassing the lower one.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Both of these just sound like forms of Omnipresence, to me, so they would be fairly redundant ratings on their own. I'd much rather have Irrelevant stay on the basis of "Character is not bound by space or time whatsoever, as opposed to just operating by some higher forms of them or moving through them in unconventional ways."

Like Rather said, though, we would have to keep the definitions strict. For instance, simply being described as "above space and time" relative to a 4-D cosmology wouldn't be enough; you'd need conclusive evidence that you do, in fact, operate in no point of spacetime at all, instead of just existing in a larger space encompassing the lower one.
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Well, I don't really mind what you suggest. I just think that our current definition of omnipresence is almost always treated as spatial, and as such leaves a gap in our system for temporal omnipresence.
 
I might be wrong, but isn't it currently accepted to put something on a profile along the lines of:

"Speed: Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time)"?

If not we could simply change the wording for omnipresence. Seems like a simpler fix than to cram it into irrelevant speed.
 
I suppose that could also be a solution, yes. We could mention in our speed page that the type of omnipresence should be specified.
 
Since that is something not directly related to this thread and just a very simple reword for the sake of clarification, rather than really changing any standards, isn't it something that could be done right now?

Something like:

Omnipresent (This is technically a state of being, rather than a speed, but has consequences for combat similar to that of a speed statistic. For practical comparisons, each case requires more detailed consideration. The type of omnipresence, such as temporal, spatial or spatiotemporal should be clarified in front of the rating. This could look as follows:

"Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)")

Or something along those lines. Or should a new thread be made for this, since profiles will be changed accordingly? Or maybe postpone it until irrelevant speed is sorted out?
 
"Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)") is just a form of Nigh-Omnipresence. Like Ultima stated, it doesn't have to be a new type of speed.
 
There is going to be another thread tacking that being omnipresent doesn't actually guarantee having Infinite/Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. Especially given that omnipresent beings don't actually move per say.
 
Elizhaa said:
"Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)") is just a form of Nigh-Omnipresence. Like Ultima stated, it doesn't have to be a new type of speed.
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Don't we grant things like "omnipresent within his realm"? If that qualifies as omnipresent, why wouldn't this? Also, it's not a new type. Just a clarification in a more obvious spot. Quite frankly, idc either way and this isn't necessarily the best place to debate this in either way, which is why I'll drop it past this post. Also, Ultima said it's omnipresence, not nigh-omnipresence.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
There is going to be another thread tacking that being omnipresent doesn't actually guarantee having Infinite/Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. Especially given that omnipresent beings don't actually move per say.
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This confuses me quite a bit. A character existing across all of time and space would reasonably have immeasurable "speed". The only way they wouldn't is if they were only omnipresent across space. But going by what Elizhaa said this would simply be nigh-omnipresence (which u seemingly agree with). But oh well, Ig we can save that for the thread. It'd be great if you could ping me for that. Either on the wiki or discord.
 
Elizhaa said:
"Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)") is just a form of Nigh-Omnipresence. Like Ultima stated, it doesn't have to be a new type of speed.
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Well, I would still prefer if we mention that it should be clarified within profile pages if characters are only temporally omnipresent.
 
So it's just Irrelevant Speed and Transduality, right? Uhh... can't say too much about the latter right now, but for the former, I'd be fine with keeping it, changing it to something like "Movement not reliant on spatial distance or time whatsoever," and noting that it isn't inherently above Immeasurable Speed, just as characters who lack spatial or temporal properties can be tiered lower than other characters who exist within some level of space-time.

(Although, on an even playing field, I feel that Irrelevant would outclass Immeasurable, wouldn't it?)
 
KingPin0422 said:
So it's just Irrelevant Speed and Transduality, right? Uhh... can't say too much about the latter right now, but for the former, I'd be fine with keeping it, changing it to something like "Movement not reliant on spatial distance or time whatsoever," and noting that it isn't inherently above Immeasurable Speed, just as characters who lack spatial or temporal properties can be tiered lower than other characters who exist within some level of space-time.

(Although, on an even playing field, I feel that Irrelevant would outclass Immeasurable, wouldn't it?)
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@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?

Also, should we introduce "Temporal Omnipresence" in conjunction?
 
I still wish to distinct Omnipresence from any type of speed as that's just size rather than the ability to move distance over time. Since moving 0 distance over 0 time or negative time still sounds like an oxymoron to even get infinite/immeasurable speed respectively. Temporal Omnipresence also follows similar restrictions. Which was sounded like what's being proposed, but that's for another topic on another day. But as for Irrelevant speed proposals, I think the idea that they move to the point of being unbounded by concepts such as space, time, and dimension sounds right. But as I said before, transduality and Irrelevant stats are over my head. Though I can at least agree, that the mention of "1-A and above" should be removed since tiers neither guarantee that nor is it required to reach said speed.
 
Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it. What about the rest of you.

Also, is somebody willing to write easy to understand explanations for what we currently need to evaluate here, so I can call for our other knowledgeable members and administrators, please?
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
I disagree with Derp on the matter of Irrelevant speed, myself. I don't really see why a character wouldn't be capable of being as fast as, or faster, than beings that transcend them ontologically. It's not different from how "Smurf" characters have abilities that surpass the level of existence they physically exist in. Otherwise, I agree with the definitions themselves, yes. I'd word the new rating somewhat like this:

Irrelevant: Characters that abide by no notions of space and time whatsoever, and move unbound by any point in either. This is contrasted with Immeasurable characters, who simply move through time as if it were a spatial dimension, or surpass the flow of time of a lower reality while still abiding by their own notion of time.
Click to expand...

As for Type 4 Transduality, I already said that it should be reworded to better reflect what it is, at present. For reference, this is what DontTalk had to say about how Transduality in general works, currently:

With the bolded part I mean that one can take a logic with transdual states and reformulate it into an equivalent multi-valued logic. Basically, instead of having a 'true' and 'false' state, where things could be in one of them, both of them or neither of them, one could have four states: A 'true and not false'-state, a 'false and not true'-state, a 'true and false'-state and a 'not true and not false'-state. Modify the rules of inference accordingly and you have a multi-valued logic system, which allows for exactly the same statements and reasoning as the prior system. I.e. the new multivalued logic system is the transdual binary logic system just written down in a different manner. They are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.
Click to expand...

By analogy, the 'true and not false' and 'false and not true' states would be the opposing ends of the dichotomy, while 'true and false' and 'not true and not false" would be the Transdual states. Type 4 Transduality, then, would be a character that resides in none of those four states, and I've brought up an example of something that would fulfill that condition. DontTalk seemed to have issues with that, but it seems like those were a result of him misunderstanding my explanations.
 
I personally think that the above suggestion for irrelevant speed seems good to apply.

Is it acceptable for you as well, @DontTalkDT ?

I thought that transduality in its full context means encompassing absolutely everything, all conceptual dualities, singularities, pluralities, et cetera in one inseparate impossible to divide whole, but I am not a very good person to ask.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
I disagree with Derp on the matter of Irrelevant speed, myself. I don't really see why a character wouldn't be capable of being as fast as, or faster, than beings that transcend them ontologically. It's not different from how "Smurf" characters have abilities that surpass the level of existence they physically exist in.
Click to expand...
I... don't know where you're getting that from. At least, my previous post didn't indicate any of what you're claiming I said to me.
Ultima_Reality said:
By analogy, the 'true and not false' and 'false and not true' states would be the opposing ends of the dichotomy, while 'true and false' and 'not true and not false" would be the Transdual states. Type 4 Transduality, then, would be a character that resides in none of those four states, and I've brought up an example of something that would fulfill that condition. DontTalk seemed to have issues with that, but it seems like those were a result of him misunderstanding my explanations.
Click to expand...
This is pretty cool and I'll support the notion, but if you don't mind, I'm gonna go on a mini-rant here:

At this point, the insinuation that "Transduality" means transcending duality is just outright wrong, isn't it? If we're reducing it to "having both the true and false values, having neither of them, or residing in some alien state separate from those altogether," then I see no need to specify an element of transcendence in the first place. Furthermore, a character could conceivably reside in some nondual state without being a transcendent entity, yet would (presumably) be denied the power simply because they lack transcendental status, which is an issue that was had with Beyond-Dimensional Existence in the past: that being that unless you specifically held superiority over time and space, then you were not allowed to qualify, even if you clearly were stated/shown to lack spatial or temporal properties.

Or in other words: why should we still call it "Transduality" when it is starting to stray far from its original idea of "transcendence over duality"? It's not like renaming it and updating every page that links to it is anything difficult - we've done this with a far more prominent power via automated scripts, so we can certainly do it here.
 
Thank you for helping out, KingPin. It is very appreciated.
 
I am cool with Ultima's texts on Irrelevant Speed and fine with keeping Transduality Type 4, from Ultima's arguments.
 
I gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
That IMO makes the tier pointless.
I would rather not have a speed tier of that type at all, but if you guys want it, it will at minimum need a note stating that characters of this nature in practice are not necessarily faster than characters of other speed ratings and the specific relationship in that regard is dependent on whether they have showing that would qualify them as equal or faster to other speed tiers or not.

Ultima_Reality said:
As for Type 4 Transduality, I already said that it should be reworded to better reflect what it is, at present. For reference, this is what DontTalk had to say about how Transduality in general works, currently:



By analogy, the 'true and not false' and 'false and not true' states would be the opposing ends of the dichotomy, while 'true and false' and 'not true and not false" would be the Transdual states. Type 4 Transduality, then, would be a character that resides in none of those four states, and I've brought up an example of something that would fulfill that condition. DontTalk seemed to have issues with that, but it seems like those were a result of him misunderstanding my explanations.
Click to expand...
So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?
 
DontTalkDT said:
I gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
That IMO makes the tier pointless.
I would rather not have a speed tier of that type at all, but if you guys want it, it will at minimum need a note stating that characters of this nature in practice are not necessarily faster than characters of other speed ratings and the specific relationship in that regard is dependent on whether they have showing that would qualify them as equal or faster to other speed tiers or not.


So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @Elizhaa
 
If Irrelevant is going to be a specific rating, I'd prefer to keep it defined as something superior to Immeasurable speed. I wouldn't mind the possibility of nuking it if the suggestions keep coming back to either just being another level of Immeasurable and/or something that is simply unquantifiable and is getting mixed up with abilities not related to speed.

Basically, either one of two things should be done. Find a definition that accurately treats it as a speed rating qualitively superior to Immeasurable speed without mixing it up with things like Dimensional Travel, Omnipresence, Nonexistence Physiology, Acausality, Transduality, ect. And obviously, speed shouldn't be mixed up with other stats such as Attack Potency or range; it shouldn't be something people need to be 1-A or have Outerversal range to qualify for nor should have said tier and/or range rating automatically warrant such a speed rating. And the other option should just be to remove the Irrelevant speed rating and make Immeasurable the new highest legitimate speed rating.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but I'm no expert on the uber high tiered stuff like 1-A ratings, conceptual manipulation, NEP, ect. So I am otherwise going to have to remain mostly neutral, but given I mentioned the option to just remove the rating, it sounds like I'm more or less leaning towards DontTalkDT's suggestion if that's what he ultimately prefers.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If Irrelevant is going to be a specific rating, I'd prefer to keep it defined as something superior to Immeasurable speed. I wouldn't mind the possibility of nuking it if the suggestions keep coming back to either just being another level of Immeasurable and/or something that is simply unquantifiable and is getting mixed up with abilities not related to speed.

Basically, either one of two things should be done. Find a definition that accurately treats it as a speed rating qualitively superior to Immeasurable speed without mixing it up with things like Dimensional Travel, Omnipresence, Nonexistence Physiology, Acausality, Transduality, ect. And obviously, speed shouldn't be mixed up with other stats such as Attack Potency or range; it shouldn't be something people need to be 1-A or have Outerversal range to qualify for nor should have said tier and/or range rating automatically warrant such a speed rating. And the other option should just be to remove the Irrelevant speed rating and make Immeasurable the new highest legitimate speed rating.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but I'm no expert on the uber high tiered stuff like 1-A ratings, conceptual manipulation, NEP, ect. So I am otherwise going to have to remain mostly neutral, but given I mentioned the option to just remove the rating, it sounds like I'm more or less leaning towards DontTalkDT's suggestion if that's what he ultimately prefers.
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Thank you for helping out.

What do you think, @DontTalkDT ?
 
Well, since I don't think one can define Irrelevant speed in a fashion that it is generally above Immeasurable (unless one imposes extra limits on Immeasurable) I think we should just nuke the Irrelevant rating.
 
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. I suppose that we are currently leaning towards applying your solution then.

What about creating a "temporal omnipresence" definition for characters that are omnipresent through time rather than space?
 
If characters that have such a thing exist, we can add a rating like that below Omnipresence, I suppose.
 
Thank you.

I think that Solaris and several Elder Scrolls deities have temporal omnipresence, for example.
 
Omnipresent temporally but not spatially? That's basically Solaris from Sonic. I've also heard certain characters from TES and someone from Marvel comics Matt brought up before.
 
KingPin0422 said:
I... don't know where you're getting that from. At least, my previous post didn't indicate any of what you're claiming I said to me.
Click to expand...

I'd be fine with keeping it, changing it to something like "Movement not reliant on spatial distance or time whatsoever," and noting that it isn't inherently above Immeasurable Speed
Click to expand...

KingPin0422 said:
Or in other words: why should we still call it "Transduality" when it is starting to stray far from its original idea of "transcendence over duality"? It's not like renaming it and updating every page that links to it is anything difficult - we've done this with a far more prominent power via automated scripts, so we can certainly do it here.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I wouldn't mind this. "Nondualism" is what the actual term is, and "Transduality" is mostly our invention, so, it's appropriate, overall.

DontTalkDT said:
I gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
Click to expand...
Would you be more open to the suggestion if it were specified that it refers to a character being of a nature superior to spacetime entirely, rather than just apart from it? That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning, and your issues seem to be mostly a result of poor wording on my part.

DontTalkDT said:
So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?
Click to expand...
Pretty much. Although, of course, that explanation was strictly one of analogy, so, "True and False" there are actually stand-ins for all the different dichotomies that may define a verse's cosmology. You probably get the gist of it, but it's always good to clarify.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Would you be more open to the suggestion if it were specified that it refers to a character being of a nature superior to spacetime entirely, rather than just apart from it? That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning, and your issues seem to be mostly a result of poor wording on my part.
Click to expand...
Problem is that someone "superior to spacetime" isn't necessarily so in a speed wise manner. Especially not in a manner that would allow to keep up or outspeed Immeasurable characters.

Even if we add a criteria in that they need feats of superiority in a fashion that allows surpassing immeasurable characters in a speed-wise sense, it would still have the problem that that can only be done relative to some layer of Immeasurable. An Irrelevant character surpassing 1 time dimensions, could still not be considered superior to an Immeasurable character that surpasses 2 or 3 or aleph_7 many. Since there is no upper limit to Immeasurable, there can't be a tier superior to it in total.

And then there's the headache of asking: If an Irrelevant character has feats of superiority to a baseline Immeasurable character (with, let's say, 1 time dimension), but there is another Immeasurable character that is far above baseline (with the same amount of time dimensions) then is the Irrelevant still faster than the Immeasurable? And why?

Personally, I think such a rating makes things very complicated and ultimately it just doesn't do what we would expect from Irrelevant speed: Be superior to Immeasurable in general. I think in cases where a character transcends spacetime in a fashion that would indicate the ability to keep up or surpass (baseline) Immeasurable speed of some level it is easiest to list it just as Immeasurable speed (possibly above baseline one) and BDE.

Ultima_Reality said:
Pretty much. Although, of course, that explanation was strictly one of analogy, so, "True and False" there are actually stand-ins for all the different dichotomies that may define a verse's cosmology. You probably get the gist of it, but it's always good to clarify.
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose the idea is fine. We just need a good formulation then.
 
For the record, i still think that Irrelevant speed should be remove. Can we even have an exact, good definition of it at all??
 
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