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Yeah, I've never really argued God would be the fifth state. I argued Atzmus would be, in this case.That sounds like it would still be in the realms of Type 3 from how you describe it. Type 3 includes "are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation" which is exactly what God is according to your description. It's basically the "true and false"-state. While the Divine Nothingness seems to be the "not true and not false"-state (or not 1 nor 0).
I don't really see how a character that follows what I described could be blitzed by someone with Immeasurable speed. Being able to reach any point in space instantly by operating in t=0 is meaningless if the thing you are up against is above the framework in which those actions take place to begin with (In this, not "above" it in the sense of being in some other direction orthogonal to spacetime but being in some level that's ontologically above it)I have to disagree here. For an ability it can make sense to go by mechanism, but not for a stat. Stats are all about effects and how things compare.
If an Immeasurable combat speed character doesn't blitz an infinite combat speed character, but could even lose to it for speed reasons, then Immeasurable would have failed as stat. A stat that, at times, is slower than the next lowest stat would not do its job of making characters comparable in the aspect it describes.
Both of these just sound like forms of Omnipresence, to me, so they would be fairly redundant ratings on their own. I'd much rather have Irrelevant stay on the basis of "Character is not bound by space or time whatsoever, as opposed to just operating by some higher forms of them or moving through them in unconventional ways."I think that Irrelevant speed should be redefined from its current form though. Preferably to encompassing and perceiving all of time at once or somesuch.
Well, I don't really mind what you suggest. I just think that our current definition of omnipresence is almost always treated as spatial, and as such leaves a gap in our system for temporal omnipresence.Both of these just sound like forms of Omnipresence, to me, so they would be fairly redundant ratings on their own. I'd much rather have Irrelevant stay on the basis of "Character is not bound by space or time whatsoever, as opposed to just operating by some higher forms of them or moving through them in unconventional ways."
Like Rather said, though, we would have to keep the definitions strict. For instance, simply being described as "above space and time" relative to a 4-D cosmology wouldn't be enough; you'd need conclusive evidence that you do, in fact, operate in no point of spacetime at all, instead of just existing in a larger space encompassing the lower one.
Don't we grant things like "omnipresent within his realm"? If that qualifies as omnipresent, why wouldn't this? Also, it's not a new type. Just a clarification in a more obvious spot. Quite frankly, idc either way and this isn't necessarily the best place to debate this in either way, which is why I'll drop it past this post. Also, Ultima said it's omnipresence, not nigh-omnipresence."Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)") is just a form of Nigh-Omnipresence. Like Ultima stated, it doesn't have to be a new type of speed.
This confuses me quite a bit. A character existing across all of time and space would reasonably have immeasurable "speed". The only way they wouldn't is if they were only omnipresent across space. But going by what Elizhaa said this would simply be nigh-omnipresence (which u seemingly agree with). But oh well, Ig we can save that for the thread. It'd be great if you could ping me for that. Either on the wiki or discord.There is going to be another thread tacking that being omnipresent doesn't actually guarantee having Infinite/Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. Especially given that omnipresent beings don't actually move per say.
Well, I would still prefer if we mention that it should be clarified within profile pages if characters are only temporally omnipresent."Temporal Omnipresence (Exists across all of time at once)") is just a form of Nigh-Omnipresence. Like Ultima stated, it doesn't have to be a new type of speed.
Yeah I do agree about that it's should be clarified ,it can help the new one to understand the speed scalingWell, I would still prefer if we mention that it should be clarified within profile pages if characters are only temporally omnipresent.
@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus
I would greatly appreciate help with reaching final conclusions and organising and applying our remaining revisions here.
I would greatly appreciate help with reaching final conclusions and organising and applying our remaining revisions here.
@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeusWhat is currently left to do here?
@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeusSo it's just Irrelevant Speed and Transduality, right? Uhh... can't say too much about the latter right now, but for the former, I'd be fine with keeping it, changing it to something like "Movement not reliant on spatial distance or time whatsoever," and noting that it isn't inherently above Immeasurable Speed, just as characters who lack spatial or temporal properties can be tiered lower than other characters who exist within some level of space-time.
(Although, on an even playing field, I feel that Irrelevant would outclass Immeasurable, wouldn't it?)
I disagree with Derp on the matter of Irrelevant speed, myself. I don't really see why a character wouldn't be capable of being as fast as, or faster, than beings that transcend them ontologically. It's not different from how "Smurf" characters have abilities that surpass the level of existence they physically exist in. Otherwise, I agree with the definitions themselves, yes. I'd word the new rating somewhat like this:What do you think about this?
Irrelevant: Characters that abide by no notions of space and time whatsoever, and move unbound by any point in either. This is contrasted with Immeasurable characters, who simply move through time as if it were a spatial dimension, or surpass the flow of time of a lower reality while still abiding by their own notion of time.
With the bolded part I mean that one can take a logic with transdual states and reformulate it into an equivalent multi-valued logic. Basically, instead of having a 'true' and 'false' state, where things could be in one of them, both of them or neither of them, one could have four states: A 'true and not false'-state, a 'false and not true'-state, a 'true and false'-state and a 'not true and not false'-state. Modify the rules of inference accordingly and you have a multi-valued logic system, which allows for exactly the same statements and reasoning as the prior system. I.e. the new multivalued logic system is the transdual binary logic system just written down in a different manner. They are for all intents and purposes interchangeable.
I... don't know where you're getting that from. At least, my previous post didn't indicate any of what you're claiming I said to me.I disagree with Derp on the matter of Irrelevant speed, myself. I don't really see why a character wouldn't be capable of being as fast as, or faster, than beings that transcend them ontologically. It's not different from how "Smurf" characters have abilities that surpass the level of existence they physically exist in.
This is pretty cool and I'll support the notion, but if you don't mind, I'm gonna go on a mini-rant here:By analogy, the 'true and not false' and 'false and not true' states would be the opposing ends of the dichotomy, while 'true and false' and 'not true and not false" would be the Transdual states. Type 4 Transduality, then, would be a character that resides in none of those four states, and I've brought up an example of something that would fulfill that condition. DontTalk seemed to have issues with that, but it seems like those were a result of him misunderstanding my explanations.
So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?As for Type 4 Transduality, I already said that it should be reworded to better reflect what it is, at present. For reference, this is what DontTalk had to say about how Transduality in general works, currently:
By analogy, the 'true and not false' and 'false and not true' states would be the opposing ends of the dichotomy, while 'true and false' and 'not true and not false" would be the Transdual states. Type 4 Transduality, then, would be a character that resides in none of those four states, and I've brought up an example of something that would fulfill that condition. DontTalk seemed to have issues with that, but it seems like those were a result of him misunderstanding my explanations.
@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @ElizhaaI gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
That IMO makes the tier pointless.
I would rather not have a speed tier of that type at all, but if you guys want it, it will at minimum need a note stating that characters of this nature in practice are not necessarily faster than characters of other speed ratings and the specific relationship in that regard is dependent on whether they have showing that would qualify them as equal or faster to other speed tiers or not.
So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?
Thank you for helping out.If Irrelevant is going to be a specific rating, I'd prefer to keep it defined as something superior to Immeasurable speed. I wouldn't mind the possibility of nuking it if the suggestions keep coming back to either just being another level of Immeasurable and/or something that is simply unquantifiable and is getting mixed up with abilities not related to speed.
Basically, either one of two things should be done. Find a definition that accurately treats it as a speed rating qualitively superior to Immeasurable speed without mixing it up with things like Dimensional Travel, Omnipresence, Nonexistence Physiology, Acausality, Transduality, ect. And obviously, speed shouldn't be mixed up with other stats such as Attack Potency or range; it shouldn't be something people need to be 1-A or have Outerversal range to qualify for nor should have said tier and/or range rating automatically warrant such a speed rating. And the other option should just be to remove the Irrelevant speed rating and make Immeasurable the new highest legitimate speed rating.
I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but I'm no expert on the uber high tiered stuff like 1-A ratings, conceptual manipulation, NEP, ect. So I am otherwise going to have to remain mostly neutral, but given I mentioned the option to just remove the rating, it sounds like I'm more or less leaning towards DontTalkDT's suggestion if that's what he ultimately prefers.
I... don't know where you're getting that from. At least, my previous post didn't indicate any of what you're claiming I said to me.
I'd be fine with keeping it, changing it to something like "Movement not reliant on spatial distance or time whatsoever," and noting that it isn't inherently above Immeasurable Speed
Yeah, I wouldn't mind this. "Nondualism" is what the actual term is, and "Transduality" is mostly our invention, so, it's appropriate, overall.Or in other words: why should we still call it "Transduality" when it is starting to stray far from its original idea of "transcendence over duality"? It's not like renaming it and updating every page that links to it is anything difficult - we've done this with a far more prominent power via automated scripts, so we can certainly do it here.
Would you be more open to the suggestion if it were specified that it refers to a character being of a nature superior to spacetime entirely, rather than just apart from it? That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning, and your issues seem to be mostly a result of poor wording on my part.I gotta disagree with Ultima's suggestion for Irrelevant speed. I don't see why characters of such a nature would be in any speed-like relationship with any characters of another speed tier whatsoever. It's essentially just Unknown speed for the reason of spacetime being inapplicable for the character.
Pretty much. Although, of course, that explanation was strictly one of analogy, so, "True and False" there are actually stand-ins for all the different dichotomies that may define a verse's cosmology. You probably get the gist of it, but it's always good to clarify.So is what you're suggesting that Type 3 is equivalent to multi-valued logic with 4 truth states and type 4 is multi-valued logic with more than 4 truth states?
Problem is that someone "superior to spacetime" isn't necessarily so in a speed wise manner. Especially not in a manner that would allow to keep up or outspeed Immeasurable characters.Would you be more open to the suggestion if it were specified that it refers to a character being of a nature superior to spacetime entirely, rather than just apart from it? That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning, and your issues seem to be mostly a result of poor wording on my part.
Well, I suppose the idea is fine. We just need a good formulation then.Pretty much. Although, of course, that explanation was strictly one of analogy, so, "True and False" there are actually stand-ins for all the different dichotomies that may define a verse's cosmology. You probably get the gist of it, but it's always good to clarify.