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The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

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Something else I wanna suggest in terms of speed. Would it be better to separate Travel, Reaction, Flight, Attack, and Combat speed on characters' profiles? Sorta like this:

Flight Speed: At least Sub-Relativistic+

Travel Speed: At least Sub-Relativistic+

Reaction Speed: At least Speed of Light

Just a suggestion; thought it'd help better organize profiles.
 
CreatorJoe said:
Something else I wanna suggest in terms of speed. Would it be better to separate Travel, Reaction, Flight, Attack, and Combat speed on characters' profiles? Sorta like this:

Flight Speed: At least Sub-Relativistic+

Travel Speed: At least Sub-Relativistic+

Reaction Speed: At least Speed of Light

Just a suggestion; thought it'd help better organize profiles.
Click to expand...
This is entirely derail from goal of the topic, and what you suggest was already suggested before, but no it kinda redudant. If character have reaction/combat speed different from normal speed we just need to write [insert speed] with [insert speed] reaction and combat speed, etc....
 
Vietthai is correct. Also, please stop derailing this discussion, as it is extremely important.
 
Anyway @KingPin0422 : Can you summarise the conclusions here so far again please? Perhaps we should also start to apply some changes soon?
 
Tago238 said:
1) Speed is relevant but only insofar as it effects a vs match, we don’t index whether or not a character is supersonic through rocket propulsion or if they can just achieve that speed by running. If there isn’t a difference between irrelevant speed and immobile speed in a vs match then there’s no need to add extra classifications. If you want to argue that irrelevant speed isn’t effectively the same in combat then argue that please. The pages you bring up are only few in number and were made by the same people who are the main proponents of irrelevant speed’s inclusion, to me it just seems like a fancy way of saying mindless unless you give extra context.
Click to expand...
So before I proceed: your point of contention isn't that Irrelevant Speed (as I'm describing it) doesn't exist, but rather that in practice, it is no different from Immobile Speed. Is that right?
Tago238 said:
2) This argument engages in false equivalence because it ignores the reasons why we don’t use energy later in the tiering system. Combat power isn’t (or is argued to not be) inherently constrained by the concept energy because greater volume can intuitively be seen as equating to greater power and in practice a higher dimensional character usually beats a lower dimensional one anyway. This doesn’t work with lifting strength because it is inherently constrained by the concept of mass and you can’t argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-C one. It’s also weird that you’re using an equivalence argument when you’re also seemingly capping LS at a stage the TS doesn’t.
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Fair enough, but I'd push back on "you can't argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-C one." Sure, both volumes are massless and therefore technically "weigh the same," but the 1-A volume fundamentally exceeds the Low 2-C volume in cardinality. All of our units of measurement are defined over the set of real numbers, including distance (space) and time. Meanwhile, Low 1-A and up are definitionally beyond the set of real numbers in mathematical size (cardinality), so interacting with a 1-A volume at all isn't really possible even if you can lift a timeline, but doing that would just be a higher level of Immeasurable LS, yeah.
Tago238 said:
3) Right so is the value of the SS “mass requiring a strength beyond strength to lift/ acceleration” or is it just 1-A? In the latter case why can’t this logic be used to justify High 1-A level LS, thus 1-A LS would be well defined and wouldn’t exactly be beyond the system of measurement as it is being described.
Click to expand...
The former.


Antvasima said:
Anyway @KingPin0422 : Can you summarise the conclusions here so far again please? Perhaps we should also start to apply some changes soon?
Click to expand...
  • I guess I concede to removing Irrelevant Lifting Strength based on Tago's points, but Irrelevant Speed is still up in the air.
    • If people want it, we may also want to consider another Striking Strength revision to align it more with Lifting Strength (especially with respect to the highest ratings of the latter), but that's a project for another time.
  • Type 1 transduality is almost unanimously agreed to be unnecessary. I don't believe anyone has expressed any definite opinions on the other issues of Transduality so far, though - perhaps we should contact DontTalk and Ultima to help us continue Transduality discussion.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence, based on the input given, seems like it will overall stay the same, albeit with some extra clarifications on the power and its types and maybe a rewrite to the "Possible Uses" section.
 
KingPin0422 said:
  • I guess I concede to removing Irrelevant Lifting Strength based on Tago's points, but Irrelevant Speed is still up in the air.
    • If people want it, we may also want to consider another Striking Strength revision to align it more with Lifting Strength (especially with respect to the highest ratings of the latter), but that's a project for another time.
  • Type 1 transduality is almost unanimously agreed to be unnecessary. I don't believe anyone has expressed any definite opinions on the other issues of Transduality so far, though - perhaps we should contact DontTalk and Ultima to help us continue Transduality discussion.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence, based on the input given, seems like it will overall stay the same, albeit with some extra clarifications on the power and its types and maybe a rewrite to the "Possible Uses" section.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the summary. I would much prefer if we keep a modified version of Irrelevant speed.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to help us out here please? It is extremely important.
 
“So before I proceed: your point of contention isn't that Irrelevant Speed (as I'm describing it) doesn't exist, but rather that in practice, it is no different from Immobile Speed. Is that right?”

My point is more that the applications of the rating in combat are relevant and should be discussed in detail; as an example it’s quite frequently the case that it could be construed as the same as immobile in practice, in which case it should just be indexed as such according to my design philosophy. So my answer to your question would depend on your elaboration, you didn’t answer my question as to how you’d define “static wholeness” for a start.

“Fair enough, but I'd push back on "you can't argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-Cone." Sure, both volumes are massless and therefore technically "weigh the same," but the 1-A volume fundamentally exceeds the Low 2-Cvolume in cardinality. All of our units of measurement are defined over the set of real numbers, including distance (space) and time. Meanwhile, Low 1-A and up are definitionally beyond the set of real numbers in mathematical size (cardinality), so interacting with a 1-A volume at all isn't really possible even if you can lift a timeline, but doing that would just be a higher level of Immeasurable LS, yeah.”

I’d disagree with this by pushing my previous points more but this level of concession is the most I expect from these issues on the forum so I’ll drop the topic here unless it comes up again.

“The former.”

Okay so I assume this point is based on less trying to make the striking strength page match the TS instead of the LS one, yeah?
 
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Tago238 said:
“So before I proceed: your point of contention isn't that Irrelevant Speed (as I'm describing it) doesn't exist, but rather that in practice, it is no different from Immobile Speed. Is that right?”

My point is more that the applications of the rating in combat are relevant and should be discussed in detail; as an example it’s quite frequently the case that it could be construed as the same as immobile in practice, in which case it should just be indexed as such according to my design philosophy. So my answer to your question would depend on your elaboration, you didn’t answer my question as to how you’d define “static wholeness” for a start.

“Fair enough, but I'd push back on "you can't argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-Cone." Sure, both volumes are massless and therefore technically "weigh the same," but the 1-A volume fundamentally exceeds the Low 2-Cvolume in cardinality. All of our units of measurement are defined over the set of real numbers, including distance (space) and time. Meanwhile, Low 1-A and up are definitionally beyond the set of real numbers in mathematical size (cardinality), so interacting with a 1-A volume at all isn't really possible even if you can lift a timeline, but doing that would just be a higher level of Immeasurable LS, yeah.”

I’d disagree with this by pushing my previous points more but this level of concession is the most I expect from these issues on the forum so I’ll drop the topic here unless it comes up again.

“The former.”

Okay so I assume this point is based on less trying to make the striking strength page match the TS instead of the LS one, yeah?
Click to expand...
KingPin0422 said:
So before I proceed: your point of contention isn't that Irrelevant Speed (as I'm describing it) doesn't exist, but rather that in practice, it is no different from Immobile Speed. Is that right?

Fair enough, but I'd push back on "you can't argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-C one." Sure, both volumes are massless and therefore technically "weigh the same," but the 1-A volume fundamentally exceeds the Low 2-C volume in cardinality. All of our units of measurement are defined over the set of real numbers, including distance (space) and time. Meanwhile, Low 1-A and up are definitionally beyond the set of real numbers in mathematical size (cardinality), so interacting with a 1-A volume at all isn't really possible even if you can lift a timeline, but doing that would just be a higher level of Immeasurable LS, yeah.

The former.



  • I guess I concede to removing Irrelevant Lifting Strength based on Tago's points, but Irrelevant Speed is still up in the air.
    • If people want it, we may also want to consider another Striking Strength revision to align it more with Lifting Strength (especially with respect to the highest ratings of the latter), but that's a project for another time.
  • Type 1 transduality is almost unanimously agreed to be unnecessary. I don't believe anyone has expressed any definite opinions on the other issues of Transduality so far, though - perhaps we should contact DontTalk and Ultima to help us continue Transduality discussion.
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence, based on the input given, seems like it will overall stay the same, albeit with some extra clarifications on the power and its types and maybe a rewrite to the "Possible Uses" section.
Click to expand...

It's either remove "Irrelevant" Speed and Lifting Strength or rename it to something else. Personally, I still believe it should be called something like "Absolute", but you could change it to something similar to it like Almighty/Atlas/Bottomless/Boundless/Complete/Divine/Godly/Incalculable/Incomprehensible. I'm also for removing it entirely, yet not as much as changing the name.
 
CreatorJoe, please stop responding here. You seem to be derailing from the main staff discussion.
 
No problem.
 
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This is still likely the most important revision thread in this forum right now, and we never seem to finish it. Constructive help would be extremely appreciated.
 
Okay. No problem.
 
Currently on phone so i think i will voice out something on Speed. So Tago point is Irrelevant speed is...well the user is transcended dimension to the point that moving is "irrelevant", they doesn't need to move cuz the concept of moving is useless to them thus it is somewhat no different from immobile speed, as they just stood there. Well, i think we as of right now, revise BDE, we should also nuke that irrelevant speed, cuz they not "beyond" dimensional literally anymore, while transcend it but the same time not totally beyond it, in practial they still need to "move". And i also think the same with Irrelevant Lifting Strength.
 
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I am not interested or knowledgeable in this kind of stuff, sorry.
 
Okay. No problem.
 
I already gave my opinion and I don't think anything in the thread has changed for me to reappraise it.
 
Okay. No problem.
 
I'd love to help, but unfortunately stuff regarding Tier 1 and the highest speed and LS tiers are not my strong suit
 
Okay. No problem.

I very strongly encourage those who are capable of helping with this to do so though, as we genuinely really need to get this done, and it looks ridiculous for us to not get our act together in this regard for a few years.
 
I'm sorry: I know this is Staff Thread but I think that the main problem here would be the term, since our standards for Irrelevant Speed is that dimensions aren't something that could be used for a measurement. Or at least it used to be. The whole thing about Immobile and Irrelevant is something that somehow bugs me, and I'm pretty sure people remember when True Infinite, or Infinity, were the preveious term for AP in Tier 0, as Omnipotence a power only they where able to carry; having said that I think getting rid of the term would be pretty simple and straight forward, but modifying is something that more people seem to agree on. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discarded the term, since I'm not the whole forum to give orders regarding that thing, you guys are the ones who rule that whole topic.

Now... when I said that regarding the previous Tier 0, I say that as a way to remind how things depended on, I could be wrong about this one, semantics. The difference regarding Irrelvant and Immeasurable is hard to tellng, and I can get why: the similarities between the two terms. That topic is determining and, for me at least, couldn't the Irrelevant be modified as Trascendental?

Again, I'm sorry, but I keep reading this kind of things and I'm tired of not being able to help in any meaningful way.
 
I am fine with either options on Irrelevant speed and strength.
I am fine with the changes to Transduality type. Integration type 3 to 2 of Beyond-Dimensional Existence is fine.
 
Okay. Thank you for the clarifications.
 
Well, I have tried to get our staff to help me finish this for I think around 10 months now, but things seem to happen slowly here.
 
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Promestein @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @KingPin0422

I would still greatly appreciate help with getting this extremely important revision thread properly organised and later applied. For example, converting Irrelevant Speed to a new definition, and getting rid of or updating the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page.
 
I think very hard about Speed, the name Irrelevant Speed we can keep or change, but the current description MUST be changed. We need a way better description for it
 
Yes. Ultima had some reasonable suggestions earlier.
 
Yeah, just get rid of the rating and use infinite or immeasurable depending on what the franchise runs with.
 
Damage3245 said:
Agreed. I don't think we really need anything above "Immeasurable".
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234 said:
Yeah, just get rid of the rating and use infinite or immeasurable depending on what the franchise runs with.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
We may need to get rid of Irrelevant Lifting Strength as well.
Click to expand...
Not to derail here, but like I said before...

You could change it to Absolute, but if that term doesn't work for you, you could change it to something similar to it like Almighty, Atlas, Bottomless, Boundless, Complete, Divine, Godly, Incalculable, or Incomprehensible.

However, if everyone here's for removing the term all together, I don't have a problem with that.
 
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