The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[Vietthai96]

Sorry for intruding a staff thread, but i agree with KingPin with keeping Beyond Dimensional Existence name, Aspatio-Temporal sound really uhhh.......meh for some reason. But also we should revise BDE current type to fit it new usage and meaning

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that there isn't such a thing as truly being beyond all dimensions according to our new system, as far as I have understood, just increasing levels of infinity.

 

[Vietthai96]

Hey guys, i have some thought, the name Aspatio-Temporal is meh so most will want to retain Beyond Dimensional, but the name can also be misleading. So we could just nuke Beyond Dimensional, and make Type (1,2,3 or whatever it is) for Higher Dimensional

 

[QuasiYuri]

The name itself is kind of meaningless under VSB's current system, so sounds good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Please elaborate regarding how you wish to apply this.

 

[Bobsican]

Please elaborate regarding how you wish to apply this.

Hey guys, i have some thought, the name Aspatio-Temporal is meh so most will want to retain Beyond Dimensional, but the name can also be misleading. So we could just nuke Beyond Dimensional, and make Type (1,2,3 or whatever it is) for Higher Dimensional

Basically this, and I also support this, BDE is now a misleading and useless term for our purposes now that the tiering system is simply incompatible with that, it's no different from trying to use the term "omnipotence" to rate tier 0s (which we no longer do).

 

[Antvasima]

That seems like a good idea to me. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I would also suggest the removal of Type 4 Transduality. It is for all intents and purposes, it is made up. Plurality is not in anyway superior to transduality or duality. It is just a different concept that was brought up as opposition to the concepts of dualism and monoism.

 

[Everything12]

Sure to the HDE Types.

As for nuking Transfuality Type 4. I want to say yes, but I also don't really understand it enough to say 'let's delete it' with confidence.

 

[KingPin0422]

I strongly disagree with merging BDE and HDE. The whole reason we have types of the former is to cover the various degrees of "transcending dimensions" that fiction offers: transcending dimensions in a non-superior way (type 0); transcending dimensions on a limited scope (type 1); transcending the maximum number of space-time dimensions (type 2); and transcending any number of dimensions, spatio-temporal or otherwise, within a given formal system (type 3). It's objectively different from being higher-dimensional and should not be treated as an extension of higher-dimensional existence.

Also, I don't like "they can't be truly beyond-dimensional" as an argument when fiction does indeed treat these characters as beyond-dimensional in their respective verses. The fiction's consideration of beyond-dimensional existence should take priority over how it works realistically. It's like how we have powers like Magic and Reality Warping and give them to characters based on whether or not their other powers are stated to be magical or to involve manipulating reality. If a character's fireball is called magical, then we treat it as magical. Likewise, if character is stated to exceed the concept of dimensions, then we index that as such, assigning a type based on the extent of "exceeding dimensions" as it applies to them.

 

[Bobsican]

Except stuff like Magic and RW are just methods for doing other powers, hence why they're mentioned. Powers being "magical" or the like is nothing more than an attribute that's relevant in some scenarios.
We shouldn't give priority to how a series treats a character for indexing of this kind of stuff, it's no different from the "omnipotence" claims that were done for tier 0s, which we no longer do as it simply can't be proven to such degree for our purposes, nor is a consistent rating that rates stuff appropiately (out of depending on pure "external" in-verse ratings, so you can get a character with this power in X tier, and another in a Y tier, making it lose value when it's a "power" purely reliant on scaling and semantics at most). A dimensional hierarchy where someone would deserve that kind of stuff would be implied in the AP section either way.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly disagree with merging BDE and HDE. The whole reason we have types of the former is to cover the various degrees of "transcending dimensions" that fiction offers: transcending dimensions in a non-superior way (type 0); transcending dimensions on a limited scope (type 1); transcending the maximum number of space-time dimensions (type 2); and transcending any number of dimensions, spatio-temporal or otherwise, within a given formal system (type 3). It's objectively different from being higher-dimensional and should not be treated as an extension of higher-dimensional existence.

Also, I don't like "they can't be truly beyond-dimensional" as an argument when fiction does indeed treat these characters as beyond-dimensional in their respective verses. The fiction's consideration of beyond-dimensional existence should take priority over how it works realistically. It's like how we have powers like Magic and Reality Warping and give them to characters based on whether or not their other powers are stated to be magical or to involve manipulating reality. If a character's fireball is called magical, then we treat it as magical. Likewise, if character is stated to exceed the concept of dimensions, then we index that as such, assigning a type based on the extent of "exceeding dimensions" as it applies to them.

This makes sense to me.

Should we keep the "beyond-dimensional existence" title, but only add the power when a specific fiction explicitly uses the concept, and as such rewrite the page accordingly, then?

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm fine with either way, just voice out my suggestion because some member think Beyond Dimensional sound kinda misleading and confusing, and most people including me and KingPin doesn't like Aspatio-Temporal name

Regarding Transduality, i think we can do this similar to what we did to Conceptual

 

[Greatsage13th]

I would also suggest the removal of Type 4 Transduality. It is for all intents and purposes, it is made up. Plurality is not in anyway superior to transduality or duality. It is just a different concept that was brought up as opposition to the concepts of dualism and monoism.

we could just make a separate page for plurality.

 

[KingPin0422]

This makes sense to me.

Should we keep the "beyond-dimensional existence" title, but only add the power when a specific fiction explicitly uses the concept, and as such rewrite the page accordingly, then?

I'd say this is good, but I'd like some other opinions as well as someone who can help refine the idea. I'll start by asking Ultima and Aeyu, if that's fine.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Should we keep the "beyond-dimensional existence" title, but only add the power when a specific fiction explicitly uses the concept, and as such rewrite the page accordingly, then?

This could work well.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd say this is good, but I'd like some other opinions as well as someone who can help refine the idea. I'll start by asking Ultima and Aeyu, if that's fine.

Thank you. That is perfectly fine of course.

 

[KingPin0422]

Here's Aeyu's response (paraphrased):

Beyond space time dimensions is kind of "beyond dimensions" the way anyone understands them. When people talk about dimensions properly, 99 times out of 100 (Probably even more), they mean topological axes over R, even if they don't know that's what they mean. Technically only High 1-A stuff and beyond is "beyond dimensional" in size, at least to the axioms of ZFC - truly, absolutely "beyond dimensional" stuff would be absolute infinite type stuff or purely transcendent stuff, but like, people never ever mean that.

tl;dr 1-A is beyond dimensions how the vast majority of verses use the term if they mean higher dimensions. The whole point of the revision was figuring out where "the concept of spacetime dimensions" actually reaches out to because 1-A was just a vague catchall for anything beyond infinite dimensions that wasn't omnipotent - basically Low 1-A all the way up to current 0.

Ultima has yet to give any input.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks to Aeyu for her input. She is very welcome to rejoin this community in person.

 

[Omnificence]

I think the two should be renamed to Absolute Speed and Absolute Lifting Strength. Reason being is that the term "irrelevant" is another way of saying things like "unrelated to the matter being considered" or "having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue", whereas the term "absolute" means things like "having no exceptions or restrictions" and "being entirely without fault or flaw". If some character had a lifting strength or speed level that was "irrelevant" it just sounds as if such statistics wouldn't be applied to them, but in the case for "absolute" it sounds more like their speed and strength is unlimited. And according to The Free Dictionary, the term "absolute" is applied to physics and mathematics rather than "irrelevant" and seeing as how physics and mathematics are reoccurring subjects when it comes to calculating speed and lifting strength, it would make more sense to use a term that deals with the two aforementioned.

Also, after glancing over the two statistics on the Superpower wiki, "irrelevant" isn't really another way of saying "absolute" in the Also Called sections. Furthermore, it should be noted that infinite speed and immeasurable speed are just the higher ends of Supernatural Speed according to the wiki. Here's basically the levels they show:

• Peak Human Speed - Users can move as fast as humanly possible. They can reach a level of speed as fast as 45 km/h - 63 km/h. They are as fast as moving vehicles.
• Enhanced Speed - Users can move faster than peak humans, but not too high superhuman levels. They can move much faster than the average member of their species and reach a level of speed as fast as 64-193 kph, Subsonic speed. They can move faster than the eye can see.
• Supernatural Speed- User can move blatantly faster than other people in their universe, reaching into high superhuman territory.
  • Type I: Users can move at a speed of 617-6174 kph, beyond subsonic speed and reaching hypersonic speed at their fastest.
  • Type II: Users can move at a speed of 6175-1.0793e+7 kph, beyond hypersonic speed and reaching relativistic speed at their fastest.
  • Type III: Users can move faster than relativistic speed. They can move near, at, or beyond the speed of light.
  • Type IV: Users have infinite speed. They are able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, traveling anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count.
  • Type V: Users have immeasurable speed. Their speed cannot be measured as they can move beyond linear time. Given that Speed = Distance and Time (S = D/T), if Time is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. However, immeasurable speed is superior to infinite speed, which is defined as movement beyond linear time. The difference between those 2 is that beings that can travel at infinite speeds can go everywhere instantly, whereas beings that can travel at immeasurable speeds can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.
• Absolute Speed - Users have absolute speed which transcends both levels of speed infinitely and absolutely, this is what makes it absolute. Users are beyond to the concepts of speed and the dimensions of time and space themselves.

All in all, if there should be a new definition for irrelevant speed and strength, it should definitely be "absolute".

@Antvasima @Moritzva @KingPin0422 So, what do you think?

 

[Tarang123]

Hey guys, i have some thought, the name Aspatio-Temporal is meh so most will want to retain Beyond Dimensional, but the name can also be misleading. So we could just nuke Beyond Dimensional, and make Type (1,2,3 or whatever it is) for Higher Dimensional

Agreed, the term "higher dimensional" extends pretty far into tier 1 anyway, so we might as well just nuke beyond-dimensional, or a least keep it for tiers like High 1A and 0.

As for transduality, I think it's best to make the entire thing stricter or just nuke the entire ability. We already consider it extremely outdated, so there isn't any
point in basically fooling new users into upgrading a verse solely on transduality arguments.

Also, I want to apologize for intruding on this thread

 

[KingPin0422]

I think the two should be renamed to Absolute Speed and Absolute Lifting Strength. Reason being is that the term "irrelevant" is another way of saying things like "unrelated to the matter being considered" or "having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue", whereas the term "absolute" means things like "having no exceptions or restrictions" and "being entirely without fault or flaw". If some character had a lifting strength or speed level that was "irrelevant" it just sounds as if such statistics wouldn't be applied to them, but in the case for "absolute" it sounds more like their speed and strength is unlimited. And according to The Free Dictionary, the term "absolute" is applied to physics and mathematics rather than "irrelevant" and seeing as how physics and mathematics are reoccurring subjects when it comes to calculating speed and lifting strength, it would make more sense to use a term that deals with the two aforementioned.

I mean, yes. We use Irrelevant because the concept of speed/lifting strength doesn't apply in any way (refer to the OP for an explanation of what that means). "Absolute speed" not only is a relative term in a fictional context, but also sounds like it would simply describe omnipresence by itself, if it means anything at all.

Also, after glancing over the two statistics on the Superpower wiki, "irrelevant" isn't really another way of saying "absolute" in the Also Called sections. Furthermore, it should be noted that infinite speed and immeasurable speed are just the higher ends of Supernatural Speed according to the wiki. Here's basically the levels they show:

Whatever Powerlisting does for their definitions of speed has no bearing on how we run things here. On the contrary, Powerlisting seems to take a lot of our ideas and recontextualize them to suit their standards, as do... many other sites, actually.

Agreed, the term "higher dimensional" extends pretty far into tier 1 anyway, so we might as well just nuke beyond-dimensional, or a least keep it for tiers like High 1A and 0.

You seem to have overlooked the explanation from Aeyu that I just posted.

As for transduality, I think it's best to make the entire thing stricter or just nuke the entire ability. We already consider it extremely outdated, so there isn't any
point in basically fooling new users into upgrading a verse solely on transduality arguments.

"We already consider it extremely outdated" since when?

Also, I want to apologize for intruding on this thread

I would prefer if you didn't do so in the first place. If you really, really want to say something in a staff discussion, get permission from a staff member to comment first.

 

[Tarang123]

"We already consider it extremely outdated" since when

It was one of the reasons why a somewhat recent dc upgrade was closed, and even ant said that the current things we have for transduality are outdated.

You seem to have overlooked the explanation from Aeyu that I just posted.

I’ll check out that explanation and might respond to it later…might.

I would prefer if you didn't do so in the first place. If you really, really want to say something in a staff discussion, get permission from a staff member to comment first.

Alright, my apologies for not asking for permission first

 

[Omnificence]

I mean, yes. We use Irrelevant because the concept of speed/lifting strength doesn't apply in any way (refer to the OP for an explanation of what that means). "Absolute speed" not only is a relative term in a fictional context, but also sounds like it would simply describe omnipresence by itself, if it means anything at all.

@KingPin0422 Well actually, omnipresence is where you're present everywhere at the same time; it's related to the concept of ubiquity, the ability to be nowhere and everywhere at once. The thing with Absolute Speed is that it allows users to transcend and be beyond all the logical limits, boundaries, and concepts of speed as well as the dimensions of space and time themselves. Absolute Speed doesn't mean you can be everywhere/nowhere, it just means you can move beyond infinite dimensions of time since you transcend the very concepts of movement itself.

 

[Omnificence]

I would prefer if you didn't do so in the first place. If you really, really want to say something in a staff discussion, get permission from a staff member to comment first.

Oh shit, I didn't know we were supposed to do that. My bad.

 

[deonment]

I have been allowed to post on this thread by @Abstractions and I just have to put this out here but before anything happens to transduality I would like the people on this thread to let me make my post first especially since it has been eaten by the forums twice by now

 

[Vietthai96]

I think the two should be renamed to Absolute Speed and Absolute Lifting Strength. Reason being is that the term "irrelevant" is another way of saying things like "unrelated to the matter being considered" or "having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue", whereas the term "absolute" means things like "having no exceptions or restrictions" and "being entirely without fault or flaw". If some character had a lifting strength or speed level that was "irrelevant" it just sounds as if such statistics wouldn't be applied to them, but in the case for "absolute" it sounds more like their speed and strength is unlimited. And according to The Free Dictionary, the term "absolute" is applied to physics and mathematics rather than "irrelevant" and seeing as how physics and mathematics are reoccurring subjects when it comes to calculating speed and lifting strength, it would make more sense to use a term that deals with the two aforementioned.

Also, after glancing over the two statistics on the Superpower wiki, "irrelevant" isn't really another way of saying "absolute" in the Also Called sections. Furthermore, it should be noted that infinite speed and immeasurable speed are just the higher ends of Supernatural Speed according to the wiki. Here's basically the levels they show:

• Peak Human Speed - Users can move as fast as humanly possible. They can reach a level of speed as fast as 45 km/h - 63 km/h. They are as fast as moving vehicles.
• Enhanced Speed - Users can move faster than peak humans, but not too high superhuman levels. They can move much faster than the average member of their species and reach a level of speed as fast as 64-193 kph, Subsonic speed. They can move faster than the eye can see.
• Supernatural Speed- User can move blatantly faster than other people in their universe, reaching into high superhuman territory.
  • Type I: Users can move at a speed of 617-6174 kph, beyond subsonic speed and reaching hypersonic speed at their fastest.
  • Type II: Users can move at a speed of 6175-1.0793e+7 kph, beyond hypersonic speed and reaching relativistic speed at their fastest.
  • Type III: Users can move faster than relativistic speed. They can move near, at, or beyond the speed of light.
  • Type IV: Users have infinite speed. They are able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, traveling anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count.
  • Type V: Users have immeasurable speed. Their speed cannot be measured as they can move beyond linear time. Given that Speed = Distance and Time (S = D/T), if Time is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. However, immeasurable speed is superior to infinite speed, which is defined as movement beyond linear time. The difference between those 2 is that beings that can travel at infinite speeds can go everywhere instantly, whereas beings that can travel at immeasurable speeds can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.
• Absolute Speed - Users have absolute speed which transcends both levels of speed infinitely and absolutely, this is what makes it absolute. Users are beyond to the concepts of speed and the dimensions of time and space themselves.

The term Absolute is one of most vague thing in existence, it describe nothing, not so much different from the very term: omnipotent

 

[Antvasima]

I have been allowed to post on this thread by @Abstractions and I just have to put this out here but before anything happens to transduality I would like the people on this thread to let me make my post first especially since it has been eaten by the forums twice by now

It is probably fine then. Just make sure to write your post in a word processor first, and then copy-paste it, so it isn't lost again.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @QuasiYuri @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913

Given that this thread is extremely important for us to finish, I would greatly appreciate your continued help with resolving it.

 

[Crabwhale]

Not an expert on this stuff by any means but I'll do my best.

On transduality type 1, I am ignorant to the exact specifics, but obscurity should absolutely not be a reason to remove a power if the description is still accurate. I see no reason why this case should be different. I have no real opinion on the other types.

Beyond Dimensional Existence is fine by me.

Irrelevant Speed redefinition is fine, but I'm leaning on Tago's scepticism regarding Irrelevant Lifting Strength.

Rest is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluations.

 

[Tago238]

Sorry for not replying in over a month now, largely just forgot about this because Derp didn’t answer my discord DMs and I haven’t been looking at the forums too much.

“Okay, but as stated by the Editing Rules, VS Battles is a power level indexing site first and a battleboard second. Regardless of that, the majority of characters who would qualify for Irrelevant Speed are also banned from being in VS debates in the first place (or at least not allowed to be debated seriously):”

Yeah and being a power indexing site means indexing stuff relevant to power, not states of existence immaterial to that.

“For the most part, ontologically greater planes of existence in which our physical laws and whatnot do not normally apply, a.k.a. the majority of tier 1. That said, I remember reading somewhere that space-time doesn't exactly have mass, which I can't even look for right now (it's almost 11pm here), but if true, this would apply to a large portion of tier 2 as well.”

Explain how it is a property of “ontologically greater planes of existence” that lifting it or something in it would partially “transcend the concept of mass” or whatever. As for the space time thing I don’t think it’d even be possible to establish its mass considering, you know, any definition of what mass is in the first place.

“The quotation marks are for emphasis. That's it, really.”

That’s quite odd but alright then.

“Uhh... lifting strength. What else would I be referring to? (Although it technically goes for Striking Strength as well, honestly.)”

Was mainly prying at the implications of that wording iirc, the reference to striking strength being what I was looking for. Could you elaborate more on that?


Time to look through the thread now.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't really mess with tier 1 stuff, it's out of my depth. But from what I can see...

Not an expert on this stuff by any means but I'll do my best.

On transduality type 1, I am ignorant to the exact specifics, but obscurity should absolutely not be a reason to remove a power if the description is still accurate. I see no reason why this case should be different. I have no real opinion on the other types.

Beyond Dimensional Existence is fine by me.

Irrelevant Speed redefinition is fine, but I'm leaning on Tago's scepticism regarding Irrelevant Lifting Strength.

Rest is fine.

I share the same thoughts as Crabwhale.

Apologies that I can't help more here.

 

[Omnificence]

The term Absolute is one of most vague thing in existence, it describe nothing, not so much different from the very term: omnipotent

No, omnipotence is the "unlimited power" to do anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise our conclusions here so far please?

Also:

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @QuasiYuri @KingPin0422 @Elizhaa

Do you have any suggestions for what we should do in practice here?

 

[KingPin0422]

On transduality type 1, I am ignorant to the exact specifics, but obscurity should absolutely not be a reason to remove a power if the description is still accurate. I see no reason why this case should be different. I have no real opinion on the other types.

It's problematic not only because exactly one verse (BlazBlue) has it, but because that verse doesn't even deserve it. I feel like that issue would be best addressed in a BlazBlue CRT, though.

Yeah and being a power indexing site means indexing stuff relevant to power, not states of existence immaterial to that.

Immaterial in what way? I'd consider the matter of speed and/or strength being completely inapplicable quite relevant to power scaling - at the very least, we already have some characters indexed as intelligence being inapplicable to them, so if that can be acknowledged on profiles, then I don't know why we should disregard the same consideration for other statistics.

Explain how it is a property of “ontologically greater planes of existence” that lifting it or something in it would partially “transcend the concept of mass” or whatever. As for the space time thing I don’t think it’d even be possible to establish its mass considering, you know, any definition of what mass is in the first place.

I already mentioned that such planes of existence, being more real than 3-D space at the bare minimum, would have to sit outside of its physical laws, and that includes anything related to mass. For example, High 3-A entails being able to generate infinite energy, but it's still below Low 2-C because the space-time continuum at large doesn't possess energy in the first place, and tier 1 inherits that property by virtue of being an extension of Low 2-C. Considering mass-energy equivalence, the absence of energy entails the absence of mass.

I'll have to think about the implications of the above in relation to settings which neither confirm nor deny an analogue to mass/energy existing in higher planes, and by that I mean I'm going to defer to people who know this stuff better than I do because I'm sure they could give a better answer than anything I could come up with by myself.

Was mainly prying at the implications of that wording iirc, the reference to striking strength being what I was looking for. Could you elaborate more on that?

If I'm not mistaken, striking strength measures how much force a character can apply with physical attacks such as punches and kicks. Force being defined as mass times acceleration, if mass just isn't a thing in the domain of discourse, then force wouldn't apply either.

 

[Vietthai96]

No, omnipotence is the "unlimited power" to do anything.

Again that how the term absolute work, too vague and general

 

[KingPin0422]

Yeah, omnipotence just means "unlimited power," which is vague in and of itself, but even philosophers across history disagree on what omnipotence entails - our own page on the concept goes over it pretty well. You two should take this somewhere else, though, and let people help to serve this project's purpose without any distractions.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well sorry, but because CreatorJoe mention the name so i felt the need to reply though.
On the other hand, i think we should focus on BDE first, because there aren't many people who can help with this revision, it is wiser to focus and finish one thing first before we move to another.

 

[Tago238]

1) Speed is relevant but only insofar as it effects a vs match, we don’t index whether or not a character is supersonic through rocket propulsion or if they can just achieve that speed by running. If there isn’t a difference between irrelevant speed and immobile speed in a vs match then there’s no need to add extra classifications. If you want to argue that irrelevant speed isn’t effectively the same in combat then argue that please. The pages you bring up are only few in number and were made by the same people who are the main proponents of irrelevant speed’s inclusion, to me it just seems like a fancy way of saying mindless unless you give extra context.


2) This argument engages in false equivalence because it ignores the reasons why we don’t use energy later in the tiering system. Combat power isn’t (or is argued to not be) inherently constrained by the concept energy because greater volume can intuitively be seen as equating to greater power and in practice a higher dimensional character usually beats a lower dimensional one anyway. This doesn’t work with lifting strength because it is inherently constrained by the concept of mass and you can’t argue a 1-A volume is heavier than a Low 2-C one. It’s also weird that you’re using an equivalence argument when you’re also seemingly capping LS at a stage the TS doesn’t.

3) Right so is the value of the SS “mass requiring a strength beyond strength to lift/ acceleration” or is it just 1-A? In the latter case why can’t this logic be used to justify High 1-A level LS, thus 1-A LS would be well defined and wouldn’t exactly be beyond the system of measurement as it is being described.