The remains of the Tiering Revision - Irrelevant Speed, Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Transduality Type 2, 3 & 4

[DontTalkDT]

Before the Tiering Revision 1-A was somewhat of a special tier due to being assumed to be beyond spacetime in general, which some people ascribed special properties to. As a result, various special 1-A categories were created. Since the tiering revision, Tier 1-A lost it's special status, due to not being beyond spacetime as a whole anymore, and hence these categories are in need of revision.
Many of these revisions were taken care of already. For example, were Immortality Type 10 and True-Godly Regeneration removed.

This thread is for debating how to revise the last categories that require updating.

Irrelevant Speed​

The current definition of Irrelevant speed is

Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.

The obvious problem: 1-A isn't being superior to time and space of any scale anymore. A being of the level of having an existence superior to any imaginable level of spacetime would be the highest ends of Tier 0. That would make this not a very practical rating.

My Proposal​

Irrelevant Speed should be redefined as:

Characters capable of performing movement beyond infinite dimensions of time, i.e. characters with immeasurable speed in relation to at least an infinite amount of time axis.

Reasoning​

Characters that were 1-A by the former tiering system were not only beyond spacetime but were usually also assumed to be beyond infinite-dimensional spacetime in particular.
So not only is the border between Immeasurable with finite time axis and infinite time axis a natural place to make a distinction, but it also has the advantage that nearly all characters that currently have Irrelevant Speed should continue to have it.
In other words, we should be spared from having to go through many revisions due to this change.

What maybe requires some explaining is why I talk about multiple dimensions of time here, since that model isn't given much attention when we are talking about how Immeasurable Speed works, simply because it only pertains to the higher-level versions of it. I think many people already heard of this, though, so those that do can safely skip this next paragraph.

So, an Immeasurable character might first go to the year 3000 to buy a laser gun, just to then move backwards in time to 1933 to kill Hitler. In terms of normal time, killing Hitler happened first and getting the laser gun after. However, from the Immeasurable character's perspective, it first bought the gun and then killed Hitler.
Hence we have two different kinds of before and after here. If an Immeasurable Character carried a clock, then what it did 5 minutes before according to that clock would be different from what it did 5 minutes before when going by a clock carried by a normal human. That means when talking about when something happened we need to give information according to which time we are talking. In a mathematical sense, we now need two numbers.
If the present is said to be (0,0), then 5 minutes in normal time from now could be written as (5,0). Meanwhile, 5 minutes from now from the perspective of the Immeasurable Character could be (0,5).
One can even combine those: 5 minutes from now in normal time, in the timeline as it will look for the Immeasurable Character in 5 minutes from its perspective, would be (5,5) for example.
From a mathematical perspective using two numbers like this means nothing, but that we are dealing with two dimensions of time. That doesn't mean a verse explicitly needs to have those. Like with dimensions we accept similar differences as equivalent.
A normal Immeasurable character can only move backwards in the first dimension of time, while in the second one (the one that is time as they experience it) they can move only forward like a normal human.
Now a character that can also move backwards in time in the second time dimension would essentially be immeasurable from the perspective of an immeasurable being.
It could, for example, see that the first Immeasurable Character kills Hitler with a laser gun and go backwards in the second dimension of time to stop the first Immeasurable Character from ever getting that gun and by that make it so that the first Immeasurable Character never killed Hitler in the past, to begin with.
So that's why I talk about multiple time dimensions as a model for different levels of Immeasurable speed and explains why they are well suited for defining a new Irrelevant speed rating.

Transduality​

Transduality has three types that mention Tier 1-A, namely Type 2, 3 & 4. That's for the simple reason that type 3 & 4 wish to be transcendent to everything on every level. That notion is quite obviously a problem. (Tbh I want to make some more changes to the wording of the page, but for this, I will keep it to what is necessary)

My Proposal​

I would suggest changing the Type 2 text to:

A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of binary logic or duality on at least one level of existence, standing beyond the scope of all dual systems and concepts on that level regardless of how complex they are. Such characters typically exist as contradictions within the context of their setting, and abide to dialetheic systems of logic, or are portrayed as existing within a state of single, indivisible wholeness bereft of any separation. As space, time, size and power themselves can be considered a duality, as well as the distinction between being a certain level on them or not, this type is limited to just those dualities within the level(s) of existence the character transcends.

The Type 3 text to:

A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of even the distinction between duality and transduality on at least one level of existence. Such characters will usually not obey the laws of normal logic on said level, and will obey completely different systems of logic altogether, up to and including those states which are beyond human comprehension. A basic example of Plurality is characters whose fundamental nature operates under many-valued or certain kinds of non-classical logic, where many different values can exist that are not true or false, 0/1/2, or any dichotomies in between. However, simply being able to use many-valued logic in a feat context does not qualify a character for this type, such characters must demonstrate true qualitative superiority to all types of dual distinctions. Naturally, as it exists outside all possible dual distinctions at some level, only the dualities on a level the character transcends can be surpassed like this.

And to delete Type 4.

Reasoning​

Transduality is somewhat harder to deal with than Irrelevant Speed because the 1-A requirement was connected to the inherent idea behind the nature of these types. Just changing it to infinite dimensions would be rather strange, as the reason that it had this 1-A levels, to begin with, had nothing to do with scale.
Then again, capturing the entire idea behind them isn't possible. Being beyond everything on every level is high-grade Tier 0 once again and hence not a viable distinction. Due to that, we have no choice, but to limit the abilities to the scope of some level of reality.
Type 2 & 3 were only different by one being for 1-A's and one not. Hence it is a logical consequence that those two types will be fused together now that the distinction between 1-A and not 1-A became meaningless.
Type 4 then has to become type 3. I thought about making a new type so that we don't have to move type 4's, but nothing good that would really fit in between came to mind. Luckily there aren't all too many Transdual characters with these levels, so the revisions are limited. It's also pretty clear which former level will be what after the revision, so we don't need to have experts of every verse debate were to put them.

Of course, since we can't accept being beyond everything on all levels anymore, I had to take out the corresponding parts from the explanations and in some parts rewrite them into the opposite.

Conceptual Manipulation​

Concept Manipulation Type 1, similar to those in the last sections, reasons that something should be beyond spacetime in general, regardless of level, and hence should be reserved for Tier 1-A. With that, it is the 1-A version of Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. As before, being beyond spacetime, in general, would be high-end Tier 0 now, meaning this distinction would have no practical purpose.

My Proposal​

Change Type 1 to

Transcendent Platonic Concept: Such concepts are the same as Plantic Concepts (Type 2), but govern a reality of a higher level of existence than the one that the concept manipulation user operates on.

And change Type 2 to

Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality merely "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

Reasoning​

The thing that would technically make the most sense is to fuse Type 1 and 2, which would mean type 3 becomes type 2 and type 4 becomes type 3. This would mean that we need to edit all characters with conceptual manipulation, though. That would be about 1000 Characters. If people wish to do so, that would be the best solution though.
My proposal is essentially just to make Type 1 smurf conceptual manipulation. One could say this is somewhat in the spirit of the idea that the concepts are transcendent of the reality they are used on. That's really the only reason, though.
Another alternative would be to make it infinite-dimensional concept manipulation, although that is even more arbitrary.
In any case, replacing Type 1, instead of deleting it, would save a lot of effort as only very few characters have it, I think. Let me say that I would rather not try to forcefully come up with a qualitatively better type of concept, though.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I disagree with the your proposal for Irrelevant speed, because it kind of misses the point of both 1-A and Irrelevant speed. Your current definition comes across as if it's Immeasurable speed, but for infinite dimensions. I think the current definition is mostly fine, but could just use slight clarification on the notion of what it means when it says "beyond the concept of space and time". Like:

Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves, and all their extensions thereof. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.

Something like this, should be sufficient.

Merely mentioning "beyond infinite dimensions" is not enough because our current definition for 1-A is being beyond all hausdorff dimensions, which are uncountable. Like that definition would mean Low 1-A, is Irrelevant speed, which is not the case.

I sort of disagree with transduality as a whole, but that's a whole discussion so I won't touch that. But I agree with merging of Concept Type 1 and 2. Been saying that for a while myself, the only difference between that two is that type 1 is literally type 2, but 1-A. Which is a pretty dumb distinction to make, and separation like this is why there's been so much wank surrounding Plato and concepts. Someone mentions a "concept" in their verse and suddenly the logical conclusion is we have to make it 1-A. Instead of giving baseline tiers for powers, just make it "whatever tier it's been shown to be" and be done with it, as we've been doing with type 2 already, 1-A is not special in that regard.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

About time we made something for all these proposals, but I'm not the best informed on these policies. OP is looking like it's laid out very well, but I might have to wait for more comments to see how this goes.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I disagree with the your proposal for Irrelevant speed, because it kind of misses the point of both 1-A and Irrelevant speed. Your current definition comes across as if it's Immeasurable speed, but for infinite dimensions. I think the current definition is mostly fine, but could just use slight clarification on the notion of what it means when it says "beyond the concept of space and time". Like:


Something like this, should be sufficient.

The problem is that we have no such things as "Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves, and all their extensions thereof" anymore. The tiering revision extended the scale of what spacetime can entail all the way up to the higher realms of tier 0. If you demand superiority to spacetime on any scale it can be it would apply to... MAYBE some of the tier 0 characters and nobody else. And even that's just a maybe. That just wouldn't be a useful ranking.

Merely mentioning "beyond infinite dimensions" is not enough because our current definition for 1-A is being beyond all hausdorff dimensions, which are uncountable. Like that definition would mean Low 1-A, is Irrelevant speed, which is not the case.

That's the thing, though. 1-A isn't that special of a tier anymore and there is no reason to keep Irrelevant speed tied to Tier 1-A. The goal of my proposal isn't to have Irrelevant to be speed for 1-A's. It's to replace Irrelevant speed with something that is still meaningful within the new tiering system.

My proposal isn't so much Immeasurable for infinite dimensions, then it is Immeasurable for infinite time dimensions. It is infinite levels of immeasurable and above basically.
The side effect that only few characters would require a speed change with that definition is just a bonus for convenience.

But I agree with merging of Concept Type 1 and 2. Been saying that for a while myself, the only difference between that two is that type 1 is literally type 2, but 1-A. Which is a pretty dumb distinction to make, and separation like this is why there's been so much wank surrounding Plato and concepts. Someone mentions a "concept" in their verse and suddenly the logical conclusion is we have to make it 1-A. Instead of giving baseline tiers for powers, just make it "whatever tier it's been shown to be" and be done with it, as we've been doing with type 2 already, 1-A is not special in that regard.

So you're in favor of merging them without a new type to replace Type 1? Lots of work, but it is probably the option that gives the most consistent end result.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The problem is that we have no such things as "Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves, and all their extensions thereof" anymore. The tiering revision extended the scale of what spacetime can entail all the way up to the higher realms of tier 0. If you demand superiority to spacetime on any scale it can be it would apply to... MAYBE some of the tier 0 characters would have Irrelevant and nobody else. And even that's just a maybe. That just wouldn't be a useful ranking.

We do though. The tiering revision is based around hausdrorff dimensions, being 1-A does mean you're beyond dimensions. The exceptions that place tier 0 with dimensions aren't "normal" dimensions so to speak. For the purposes of our tiering system we are referring specifically to hausdrorff dimensions which do "cap out" at Low 1-A.

That's the thing, though. 1-A isn't that special of a tier anymore and there is no reason to keep Irrelevant speed tied to Tier 1-A. The goal of my proposal isn't to have Irrelevant to be speed for 1-A's. It's to replace Irrelevant speed with something that is still meaningful within the new tiering system.

My proposal isn't so much Immeasurable for infinite dimensions, then it is Immeasurable for infinite time dimensions. It is infinite levels of immeasurable and above basically.
The side effect that only few characters would require a speed change with that definition is just a bonus for convenience.

Not sure what you mean that 1-A isn't special here, so if you could clarify it would be nice.

But the reason for Irrelevant speed's existence is to be where the concept of speed becomes, well, irrelevant. Which is beyond space-time, i.e. beyond hausdrorff dimensions, i.e. 1-A and above. Your proposal seems to want to reject the idea of space-time dimensions being defined, with the definition being infinite levels of immeasurable and above. But at that point, why not just remove Irrelevant speed and just have Immeasurable be at the top? Because that definition doesn't seem like it's anything but a more "stronger" version of Immeasurable speed that still abides by the same principles.

So you're in favor of merging them without a new type? Lots of work, but it is probably the option that gives the most consistent end result.

That is my most favourable outcome, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that DontTalk mostly seems to make sense, but I am not a very good person to ask.

However, I am uncertain about the new definition for irrelevant speed, given that Low 1-A characters and above are not remotely guaranteed to have been defined to exceed an infinite number of dimensions of time specifically, rather than geometric ones or degrees of infinity. In fact, I cannot recall any such cases from the top of my head.

Also, all of this would require a lot of work to apply, so community help would be appreciated.

Big thanks to DontTalk for helping out with improving our wiki in any case.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245

What do you think about this?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I am pretty much the same as dark, this stuff is over my head, that said fusing type 1 and 2 concept manipulation seems best to me, though it will require a lot of work to apply.

I am going to further observe the discussion about Irrelevant speed and transduality since i don't fully get that stuff.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We do though. The tiering revision is based around hausdrorff dimensions, being 1-A does mean you're beyond dimensions. The exceptions that place tier 0 with dimensions aren't "normal" dimensions so to speak. For the purposes of our tiering system we are referring specifically to hausdrorff dimensions which do "cap out" at Low 1-A.

Not sure what you mean that 1-A isn't special here, so if you could clarify it would be nice.

Unless I have a completely wrong understanding of how the system for 1-A currently works in detail I don't think that's quite correct. 1-A doesn't mean you're beyond dimensions in general. Specifically, the 1-A tier is equated to spaces with more than aleph_0 dimensions, with Low 1-A being equated to those spaces with specifically aleph_1 many and 1-A being for those with more than that. High 1-A are then spaces with dimensions that have more than certain very large cardinals many dimensions.
We do acknowledge that 1-A characters are often portrayed as being beyond dimensions (in their verse) and if someone is stated to be superior to the concept of dimensions in general, we also rank them as 1-A. Unless there are indications of the verse having even more dimensions, of course.
However, this is always a onesided implication. That is to say, being stated to be beyond the concept of dimensions in general is ranked as at least 1-A (more would be a NLF without the verse getting more specific), but being ranked 1-A doesn't imply being beyond dimensions of any imaginable cardinality.

But the reason for Irrelevant speed's existence is to be where the concept of speed becomes, well, irrelevant. Which is beyond space-time, i.e. beyond hausdrorff dimensions, i.e. 1-A and above. Your proposal seems to want to reject the idea of space-time dimensions being defined, with the definition being infinite levels of immeasurable and above. But at that point, why not just remove Irrelevant speed and just have Immeasurable be at the top? Because that definition doesn't seem like it's anything but a more "stronger" version of Immeasurable speed that still abides by the same principles.

Well, two reasons:
First, it might simply be nice to have at least a very broad distinction between levels of beyond infinite speed. Y'know, basically the same reason we have different levels of Hypersonic, Relativistic and FTL. Or why we have different levels of 1-A, instead of just having one tier for everything that is above infinite dimensions.
Second, because basically all characters with Irrelevant speed can keep their rankings, meaning this is straight-up less effort than to delete the type.

However, I am uncertain about the new definition for irrelevant speed, given that Low 1-A characters and above are not remotely guaranteed to have been defined to exceed an infinite number of dimensions of time specifically, rather than geometric ones or degrees of infinity. In fact, I cannot recall any such cases from the top of my head.

Consider that these dimensions don't have to be explicitly stated to exist, but are subject to composite hierarchies like everything else.

For example, a level of reality-fiction transcendence is usually at least one extra dimension of time that is transcended. If you view the human world as a book, the time in the book is irrelevant to you, hence you are immeasurable. If a being even higher views you as a character in the book, your time and the time in the human world are transcended and hence it's equivalent to transcending 2 dimensions of time. And so on.
Transcending an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy would hence still grant Irrelevant speed, just like before.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Unless I have a completely wrong understanding of how the system for 1-A currently works in detail I don't think that's quite correct. 1-A doesn't mean you're beyond dimensions in general. Specifically, the 1-A tier is equated to spaces with more than aleph_0 dimensions, with Low 1-A being equated to those spaces with specifically aleph_1 many and 1-A being for those with more than that. High 1-A are then spaces with dimensions that have more than certain very large cardinals many dimensions.
We do acknowledge that 1-A characters are often portrayed as being beyond dimensions (in their verse) and if someone is stated to be superior to the concept of dimensions in general, we also rank them as 1-A. Unless there are indications of the verse having even more dimensions.
However, this is always a onesided implication. That is to say, being stated to be beyond the concept of dimensions in general is ranked as at least 1-A (more would be a NLF without the verse getting more specific), but being ranked 1-A doesn't imply being beyond dimensions.

Well it is beyond dimensions, as far as how space-time dimensions are defined, i.e. real coordinate spaces. Space-time dimensions cap out at Low 1-A/Aleph-1 because of previously mentioned hausdorff dimensions being "capped" out at that point. As for some verses that would have "dimensions" above that it wouldn't really fall under what we would define as "space-time" dimensions anyway, more so for convenience sake than the equivalent of a, lets say R^164 temporal dimension for instance or similar. But being ranked 1-A does mean you are beyond dimensions, and it's mentioned even in the tiering system too if I'm not mistaken.

Well, two reasons:
First, it might simply be nice to have at least a very broad distinction between levels of beyond infinite speed. Y'know, basically the same reason we have different levels of Hypersonic, Relativistic and FTL. Or why we have different levels of 1-A, instead of just having one tier for everything that is above infinite dimensions.
Second, because basically all characters with Irrelevant speed can keep their rankings, meaning this is straight-up less effort than to delete the type.

Fair play.

 

[Antvasima]

Consider that these dimensions don't have to be explicitly stated to exist, but are subject to composite hierarchies like everything else.

For example, a level of reality-fiction transcendence is usually at least one extra dimension of time that is transcended. If you view the human world as a book, the time in the book is irrelevant to you, hence you are immeasurable. If a being even higher views you as a character in the book, your time and the time in the human world are transcended and hence it's equivalent to transcending 2 dimensions of time. And so on.
Transcending an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy would hence still grant Irrelevant speed, just like before.

Okay, but that is a very specific type of transcendence that is mostly relevant to Umineko and Demon King Daimaou. It would likely not fit with other types of hierarchies, and it would need to be defined and explained in the relevant instruction page.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay, but that is a very specific type of transcendence that is mostly relevant to Umineko and Demon King Daimaou. It would likely not fit with other types of hierarchies, and it would need to be defined and explained in the relevant instruction page.

I can agree that it might need some additional explanation somewhere.
Personally, I still think that most characters that currently have the Irrelevant ranking would in one way or another qualify for this ranking as well.
I'm willing to let myself be convinced otherwise if someone could tell me some example of a character that wouldn't qualify, though.

Well it is beyond dimensions, as far as how space-time dimensions are defined, i.e. real coordinate spaces. Space-time dimensions cap out at Low 1-A/Aleph-1 because of previously mentioned hausdorff dimensions being "capped" out at that point. As for some verses that would have "dimensions" above that it wouldn't really fall under what we would define as "space-time" dimensions anyway, more so for convenience sake than the equivalent of a, lets say R^164 temporal dimension for instance or similar. But being ranked 1-A does mean you are beyond dimensions, and it's mentioned even in the tiering system too if I'm not mistaken.

Hausdorff dimensions actually don't even reach Aleph_1. They are either finite or at most infinite via limes process. However, there are other terms of dimensions, such as those for vector spaces, that can reach way higher levels. I believe that would be what we are talking about in relation to spaces with Aleph_1 many dimensions and more. They are also real coordinate spaces btw.
I don't think there is any reason to say that dimensions of that sort are inherently not space. Especially if one considers that we are talking fiction here, which can do whatever it wants in that regard. It would be somewhat strange to demand that a 1-A character MUST be beyond spacetime on every level, if one can imagine characters of similar power that aren't.

The Tiering System doesn't really say so, I believe. As I mentioned it says that they are "normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level". But this is a matter of typical portrayal in fiction, not of necessary nature.

But maybe it is easiest to just ask the person in charge of this topic. @Ultima_Reality I know you were already tagged here, but I'm gonna do it again anyway. Clarify this stuff.
Or at least post the FAQs so that I can quote from them

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't even know what this is... What exactly...is this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@DontTalkDT

To clarify Ogbunabali's stance up there, here: You remember that we've discussed this a bit in the thread regarding the Tiering System revision, little over a year ago, yes? Although, I suppose my points were presented in quite a disjoint manner back then, so, for that, I'd apologize.

In summary, the reasoning behind what he is saying is, under the formal definition of a spacetime, a pretty core component of its topology is that it is to be a Hausdorff Space, which I am sure you're already familiar as a set in which any two points are contained in two neighbourhoods that don't intersect, which, taken in an intuitive sense, basically means that each point in spacetime is separate and distinguishable from one another, rather than lumped together in a way that they're impossible to distinguish, topologically-speaking. Of course, there are a few models of non-hausdorff spacetimes out there, but those are moreso just ways of modelling abstract schematics for branching spacetimes and non-determinism, and the spacetimes themselves are still Hausdorff subsets by necessity, as far as I am aware.

Of course, spacetimes in general are defined over number systems such as the reals or the complex numbers, which have the property of being separable (Having a dense subset which is also countable, but I am sure you are already familiar with this definition, anyway), and this would property would also apply to finite-dimensional sets in general, anyway, since any sensible measure would just give off infinite-dimensional results if you apply it to a non-separable space, either way.

I take it that you are aware that a topological space with both of these properties would result in a strict limitation to its cardinality, yes? If you aren't, I won't really bother making a proof here, since someone else already did it for me, but, in short, the maximum size of a space with these two properties would be 2^2^aleph-0, which just so happens to be Low 1-A, under our system.

Oh, by the way, since 1-A isn't really "beyond all dimensions" anymore, I'd also suggest that we rename Beyond-Dimensional Existence to "Aspatiotemporal Existence," or something along those lines, and reword some of the descriptions in the page as well. That was planning I've been planning to do for a while, but, convenient timing is convenient, I suppose.

As for the issue of Irrelevant Speed itself: I was actually thinking of the possibility of allowing characters lower than 1-A to qualify for it, since now we do allow for the existence of lower-tier beings that are also completely aspatial and atemporal on a conceptual level, and this in itself is quite different from just perceiving time as a spatial dimension you can move around in. I am neutral on whether we reject or accept this option, though.

For Conceptual Manipulation... How would this work, exactly? Would Type 2 essentially be manipulating a transcendental concept that stands on the same level of reality as you, if Type 1 is controlling concepts at a higher level? If so, how would this work for 3-D characters, for instance? Would they have to manipulate a 3-D platonic concept to qualify for Type 2? I imagine that would work for characters that are already transcendental cosmic beings and the like, but the applications would be fairly weird for lower-tiered ones.

I am fine with the changes for Transduality, from a glance, but I think your rewording left in a few contradictions that I'd rewrite for clarity's sake. For instance, this:

A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of binary logic or duality on at least one level of existence

Conflicts with this:

standing beyond the scope of all dual systems and concepts on that level regardless of how complex they are

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ah, so it's not about Hausdorff dimensions, but about the property of being Hausdorff? Ok, different story. I admittedly don't remember what we ultimately agreed on regarding that.
That being said I had the impression we agreed to spaces greater than that existing? To quote something you wrote yourself not too long ago regarding the transcending dimensions:

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_universe the class of all sets])

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on [[Fallacy|No-Limits Fallacies]].

This seems like pretty much the same situation.
And, as said, I fell like it would be plenty weird to tell fiction what it can or can not do in regards to having spacetime at a certain size or not. I can't imagine that a world with reality-fiction levels says that at some high enough level all its stories must stop including spacetime. In fact, I know that Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao doesn't.

In regards to the aspatiotemporal Irrelevant idea: That kinda runs into the issues we already had with timeless void. Such characters might not have a well-defined speed, but that doesn't mean they would in practice be faster in battle in any sense. Irrelevant always just worked due to having a concept of superiority/transcendence included.
In addition, for it to make sense as a replacement for the current Irrelevant Tier, it would need to be superior to Immeasurable speed of any level. That seems very unlikely if one doesn't limit how many levels of Immeasurable there are.
Btw. my proposal technically isn't strictly for 1-A's either, although I know no less than Tier 1 character who would actually have more than maybe 2 levels of Immeasurable speed.

For Conceptual Manipulation... How would this work, exactly? Would Type 2 essentially be manipulating a transcendental concept that stands on the same level of reality as you, if Type 1 is controlling concepts at a higher level? If so, how would this work for 3-D characters, for instance? Would they have to manipulate a 3-D platonic concept to qualify for Type 2? I imagine that would work for characters that are already transcendental cosmic beings and the like, but the applications would be fairly weird for lower-tiered ones.

3-D Characters would need to manipulate the concepts governing at least 4-D space or something equivalent to gain Type 1. Type 2 would essentially remain as it is, i.e. to qualify it suffices to manipulate any kind of platonic concept.

As suggested we could also just delete type 1, though.

I am fine with the changes for Transduality, from a glance, but I think your rewording left in a few contradictions that I'd rewrite for clarity's sake. For instance, this:

A state of being which is qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of binary logic or duality on at least one level of existence

Conflicts with this:

standing beyond the scope of all dual systems and concepts on that level regardless of how complex they are

Just changing it to "on those levels regardless of how complex they are" should fix that, yes?

 

[Elizhaa]

For the change to Conceptual Manipulation, wouldn't it make characters with Tier 1-A and up with a similar level of conceptual manipulation their existence be Type 2?
On a lower scale, how does works for characters like Yogiri; it seems Yogini for his first key would have Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation for manipulating currently 4-D type 2 concept and Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation in his 4-D key from the proposal?

• They seem like the cases; correct me if I am wrong though.
• I would be fine with just deleting the current Type 1 could work though, along updating the other conceptual manipulation's typing numbers could work though

I am neutral with the Irrelevant speed since I am not too familiar with the full topic.

I would be fine with the new update to Transduatlity. I would argue that Nonexistence Physiology Type 2 should likewise have this similar line like below added since its nature is similarly linked to Transduality:

• Nonexistence is only applicable to the level character's innate level of existence and what the character transcends.
  • I could make another staff thread on the matter if needed; I am open to texts suggestion.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For the change to Conceptual Manipulation, wouldn't it make characters with Tier 1-A and up with a similar level of conceptual manipulation their existence be Type 2?
On a lower scale, how does works for characters like Yogiri; it seems Yogini for his first key would have Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation for manipulating currently 4-D type 2 concept and Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation in his 4-D key from the proposal?

• They seem like the cases; correct me if I am wrong though.
• I would be fine with just deleting the current Type 1 could work though, along updating the other conceptual manipulation's typing numbers could work though

If I understand you correctly then the answer is yes. Which isn't necessarily a problem.
That being said, as of now most people seem to prefer just deleting Type 1, so we will probably do that... if it is necessary.

Tbh with the arguing over 1-A being beyond space and stuff I could see that Type 1 Concept Manipulation can stay, if Irrelevant speed can. Or at least, I don't see any reason why the cases should differ.

I would be fine with the new update to Transduatlity. I would argue that Nonexistence Physiology Type 2 should likewise have this similar line like below added since its nature is similarly linked to Transduality:

• Nonexistence is only applicable to the level character's innate level of existence and what the character transcends.
  • I could make another staff thread on the matter if needed; I am open to texts suggestion.

Probably best for another thread. I did in fact want to make a thread about transduality and non-existent physiology some time, as I think we really need to put something on those pages to clarify in easy terms when characters get what and what the abilities actually do in matches if certain feats are given.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's always a joy to be ignored.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's always a joy to be ignored.

Sorry, I'm not sure which kind of answer you expected for the question

I don't even know what this is... What exactly...is this?

This is a thread regarding a subject explained at the top. However, I assumed that isn't the answer you were searching for.
You will have to get a bit more specific with your question.

 

[Elizhaa]

If I understand you correctly then the answer is yes. Which isn't necessarily a problem.
That being said, as of now most people seem to prefer just deleting Type 1, so we will probably do that... if it is necessary.

Tbh with the arguing over 1-A being beyond space and stuff I could see that Type 1 Concept Manipulation can stay, if Irrelevant speed can. Or at least, I don't see any reason why the cases should differ.

I guess that type 1 Concept Manipulation could stay going by the logic of Irrevelant speed. There would be fewer major edits needed compared to the other choices.

Probably best for another thread. I did in fact want to make a thread about transduality and non-existent physiology some time, as I think we really need to put something on those pages to clarify in easy terms when characters get what and what the abilities actually do in matches if certain feats are given.

Fair point and noted.

 

[Sera_EX]

Never mind, I did my best to read the OP at least and couple of responses. Well from what I can gather, this is seemingly about the modern system—current definitions of 1-A and whatnot, and specifically how they relate to old definitions of irrelevant speed, transduality, conceptual manipulatio, etc. Basically all the powers I don't want to be within 1000 kilometers of.

Count me out. I don't like the current way things are tiered, let alone the tiers themselves. I tried to have an honest conversation with the community at large about my concerns and it was (and still is apparently) considered to be harmful to that community. Not interested in discussing stuff I don't agree with, which funny enough, is what I told Medeus on another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality and other staff members:

What do you think about the concerns I raised about the new suggested standards for irrelevant speed?

@Sera_EX

What concerns of yours are you referring to?

 

[Sera_EX]

Let's look at irrelevant speed. Frankly, the question to be asked is, does this level of speed even exist like we claim?

First of all, there are no notable examples of any case where speed is completely irrelevant in a scenario involving 1-As. 1-As have been blitzed, time-stopped (somehow), etc. Plus, current 1-A isn't even "beyond all dimensions" or whichever way you'd describe it. Time being meaningless is still within the realm of immeasurable, there's no tier beyond that. If there is, show me a feat of irrelevant speed and kindly elaborate on how it is superior to immeasurable.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245

What do you think of Sera's suggestion to get rid of irrelevant speed?

 

[DontTalkDT]

My personal suggestion in the OP was to make Irrelevant speed a high-end version of Immeasurable. So I guess I'm kinda in agreement with Sera on this?

 

[Andytrenom]

Uhm I am not sure, I feel like moving in a void outside of time-space (which some 1-As are going to be) is different than being able to move through additional dimensions of time-space

But I am no expert on this topic so you can take whatever I say with a grain of salt

 

[Antvasima]

I also always envisioned irrelevant speed as encompassing and transcending all degrees of time simultaneously, to live in an eternal "now" that is all "thens" and all "will bes" always and forever. This is not an uncommon philosophical concept.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Honestly I'm sorta for it being changed into a form of Immeasurable rather than being it's own thing.

 

[Antvasima]

It would require lots of revision and help from staff and knowledgeable members to apply such a change in any case, but I would personally prefer if we can define irrelevant speed similarly to my last post, and simply scrap 1-A as a requirement for it, to make it independently defined.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I also always envisioned irrelevant speed as encompassing and transcending all degrees of time simultaneously, to live in an eternal "now" that is all "thens" and all "will bes" always and forever. This is not an uncommon philosophical concept.

While I think I get the idea from a theoretical perspective how would a character be able to prove that in a trans-fictional context?

Can we really accept that a character that is stated to transcend all degrees of time in a verse with a Low 1-A cosmology is faster than one that transcends all degrees of time in a verse with 1-A cosmology, except for a kind of time in an even higher High 1-A realm?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Reasoning​

The thing that would technically make the most sense is to fuse Type 1 and 2, which would mean type 3 becomes type 2 and type 4 becomes type 3. This would mean that we need to edit all characters with conceptual manipulation, though. That would be about 1000 Characters. If people wish to do so, that would be the best solution though.
My proposal is essentially just to make Type 1 smurf conceptual manipulation. One could say this is somewhat in the spirit of the idea that the concepts are transcendent of the reality they are used on. That's really the only reason, though.
Another alternative would be to make it infinite-dimensional concept manipulation, although that is even more arbitrary.
In any case, replacing Type 1, instead of deleting it, would save a lot of effort as only very few characters have it, I think. Let me say that I would rather not try to forcefully come up with a qualitatively better type of concept, though.

Wouldn't it be better to just remove the transcendent part? Like transcendence isn't related to manipulation in itself and more of a tier thingy.

Something like "Independant concept" (to differenciate it with current type 3, which is basically "Dependant concept") would keep the same differenciation but remove the part about transcendance.

 

[Sera_EX]

Uhm I am not sure, I feel like moving in a void outside of time-space (which some 1-As are going to be) is different than being able to move through additional dimensions of time-space

This is not even what 1-As do. 1-As aren’t beyond all conceptualization of time-space anymore. Plus moving in timeless/spatialess voids is something any tier can do with the right existential status. Does that truly mean speed is irrelevant against them? In fiction? Plus, even if it is “different”, that doesn’t make it a superior/higher level, the result is still the same, the speed/movement is not-measurable (aka immeasurable).

 

[Sera_EX]

You also have to remember there are examples of 1-As being blitzed and the like. They are still affected by speed based feats and any fancy description of encompassing or transcending all dimensions of time-space doesn’t change the speed being incalculable. At any rate, we shouldn’t tier philosophy of any kind (common or otherwise). That stuff is not universal and is theoretical rather than scientific.

Something like Mind-Body Dualism can be used to explain how a quantum being can come back from complete annihilation through consciousness, but it’s only a way to explain it from one specific angle, it isn’t a requirement nor is it considered any superior or different from other forms of low godly regen. Just to give an example.

 

[KingPin0422]

From what I remember, Immeasurable Speed had its name chosen because of the fact that it describes a speed which cannot be calculated under the S=D/T formula, while Irrelevant Speed came from the fact that 1-A characters, at the time, were seen as transcending all scientific definition, and thus all notions of speed. Even when Aeyu came in and debunked that, the idea that 1-A is inherently esoteric and abstract largely persisted, up until the tiering system revisions came around and "normalized" it, so to speak.

If I have it right, a Low 1-C who is considered aspatial + atemporal already has the same speed rating as a Low 1-C who can move in three spatial dimensions and two temporal dimensions, so Sera's argument to remove Irrelevant Speed is consistent with how we do things with characters below a 1-A level. Right now, it's basically a combination of being 1-A and being aspatiotemporal, which are now different things thanks to the aforementioned system revision. We have three suggestions so far for fixing the problem with Irrelevant Speed:

1. As DontTalk suggested, modify Irrelevant Speed into what is essentially an extension of Immeasurable Speed, describing a level of it that exceeds an (uncountably?) infinite number of time dimensions.
2. As Ultima suggested, simply remove the 1-A requirement and grant Irrelevant Speed to anyone who is aspatiotemporal (except maybe those who have type 0 Beyond-Dimensional Existence? Ultima should clarify on this point).
3. As Ant suggested, overhaul Irrelevant Speed into a speed rating for characters who transcend all degrees of time in their verse, living in an eternal "now" that is all "thens" and all "will bes" always and forever. This would also remove the 1-A requirement.
4. As Sera suggested, just remove Irrelevant Speed completely and cap the speed scale at Immeasurable

---

As for the other two topics, I'm inclined to support removing type 1 entirely from Conceptual Manipulation, and I agree with merging type 3 Transduality with type 2. There's not much else I have to say that hasn't already been said.

 

[Promestein]

I'm inclined to just remove it, I guess?

 

[ElixirBlue]

while Irrelevant Speed came from the fact that 1-A characters, at the time, were seen as transcending all scientific definition, and thus all notions of speed.

I heard Ant was the only one who thought that was the case at the time, or am I mistaken?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Irrelevant speed is also still kind of over my head. Much like 1-A and above stuff + Conceptual manipulation and the like. But I also think whatever we do with it, we should also do the same thing with Lifting strength.

 

[Antvasima]

I heard Ant was the only one who thought that was the case at the time, or am I mistaken?

I do not remember. I think that I caught on to another staff member's explanations, but am not sure.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

As suggested we could also just delete type 1, though.

I'm personally more inclined towards this option, given how the whole division between Type 1 and Type 2 was made because people didn't want characters to instantly qualify as 1-A solely because of mentions of "platonic forms" and the like; since, with the new system, Platonism simply isn't inherently 1-A to begin with, this seems like a pointless distinction to make.

I'd respond to your arguments up above, but the discussion seems to have moved past that, so I'll just put them aside for the time being.

As for Sera's points: I'm mostly fine with removing Irrelevant Speed altogether, yeah, especially since, like she (And KingPin) said, we already treat transcendence over space and time as being Immeasurable anyway, so making a special division solely for 1-A entities is redundant at best. That they would transcend spacetime to a greater degree than, say, 1-C characters, is already self-evident and not really worth explicitly noting, in my opinion.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

What about Irrelevant Lifting Strength?

 

[KingPin0422]

If Irrelevant Speed goes, then Irrelevant Lifting Strength can be disposed of as well, methinks.